Liveblog JP - Yoshi P's 4.2 Housing Plan Discussion

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Originally Posted by Siniztor

yea i know and remeberSE has not once mentioned taking away houses people currently own that is all player fuled with pitch forks..they have stated more wards are coming and a new way to buy them and also Yoshi in his latest statement said dont worry they wont sell out fast

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Lol willing to make a wager as what that system is going to be? Like most people have already said I will have to go with a lottery system. You?

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Originally Posted by Awha

Lol willing to make a wager as what that system is going to be? Like most people have already said I will have to go with a lottery system. You?

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not a bet, but im inclined to go with the comment i read earlyer. Its gonna cost the new achivement points you need X amount of a item sold by the guy at the waterfall costing 2,500 or so achivement points or some thing silly.Just cause Yoshi said if they said any thing now people could prepare for it. i dont see how you can prepare for a lotto system

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Originally Posted by Awha

Please tell which would you prefer. Where every plot is owned by a unique account, or a system were four people own half a ward?

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Personally, I would prefer the ability to own more than one house on my account. I do not own multiple houses presently, as I find the housing system to be far too expensive overall (not just the housing plots, but the investment required to make any decor at all), but I appreciate the ability to build different homes to suit different characters.

So, what are the alleged advantages to a lottery system? What is it even supposed to mean, exactly?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So, what are the alleged advantages to a lottery system? What is it even supposed to mean, exactly?

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Advantage im not sure , but most people are speculating lotto due to lotto being a big thing over in japan from what i read. But as i said Yoshis last interview he says there not saing any thing due to they dont want people to prepare in advance.. that dosen't sound like lotto to me, since lotto is basicly buyng a ticket and waiting for the drawing.

Heres excatly what he said and a link if u like to read it

"The reason why we do not want to disclose any detail is that we want to give a fair chance to everyone. If we told you our plans, players will immediately start to prepare and we want to avoid that. That said, there will be more features and policies around this new addition, so please don't worry about plots selling out too quickly."


http://ffxiv.jeuxonline.info/actuali...k-2017#english

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Originally Posted by Siniztor

Advantage im not sure , but most people are speculating lotto due to lotto being a big thing over in japan from what i read. But as i said Yoshis last interview he says there not saing any thing due to they dont want people to prepare in advance.. that dosen't sound like lotto to me, since lotto is basicly buyng a ticket and waiting for the drawing.

"The reason why we do not want to disclose any detail is that we want to give a fair chance to everyone. If we told you our plans, players will immediately start to prepare and we want to avoid that. That said, there will be more features and policies around this new addition, so please don't worry about plots selling out too quickly."

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I've read the whole interview, I'm just wondering why anyone would tout "a process or thing whose success or outcome is governed by chance" as a means of finding equilibrium between opportunity-equality and desire-equitability.

Some people want houses a whole lot more than others and will expend higher effort and/or resources to obtain one. A lottery does not help their situation whatsoever.

Some people do not have as many resources as others, and thus their proportionately increased effort and expenditure still cannot grant them a seemingly fair opportunity. A lottery would help with that, but relatively little.

It does nothing to change the fact that more people want (their own) houses than there are houses, and that past a (to some, costly, and to others, nominal) entry fee, housing is first-come-first-serve, and obviously the servers could not support the entirety of their populations logging in simultaneously even if every player were able to take the time off for the release of new housing.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I've read the whole interview, I'm just wondering why anyone would tout "a process or thing whose success or outcome is governed by chance" as a means of finding equilibrium between opportunity-equality and desire-equitability.

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Yea i see no advantage with lotto and rng. I really think its gonna be achievement based since we have the new currency . but that being said the new currency is based off how long you have subbed.so might be achivement points we spend /shrug

Unless we might get 2.1 prices, like 540m required for Large house and 250m for Medium.

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Originally Posted by Siniztor

"That said, there will be more features and policies around this new addition, so please don't worry about plots selling out too quickly."

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This part from the quote has my interest piqued. Sounds like they are either putting in a houses per account limit or something else is in the works?

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Originally Posted by Septonyte

This part from the quote has my interest piqued. Sounds like they are either putting in a houses per account limit or something else is in the works?

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Yea who knows since they wont just come out and say. Personaly im hopeing for some kind a timer on letting go of plots so flippers can't guarantee the land to buyers ending people rushing for land just to resell.

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Originally Posted by Siniztor

Yea who knows since they wont just come out and say. Personaly im hopeing for some kind a timer on letting go of plots so flippers can't guarantee the land to buyers ending people rushing for land just to resell.

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I wouldn't be surprised if they just mass banned them all.

For that matter, I wouldn't put it past SE to just take the nuclear option and ban everyone that's got more than one personal house on their account.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

I wouldn't be surprised if they just mass banned them all.

For that matter, I wouldn't put it past SE to just take the nuclear option and ban everyone that's got more than one personal house on their account.

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I don't see them mass banning people for simply owning more than one house. That's a lot of revenue they'd be losing.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

I wouldn't be surprised if they just mass banned them all.

For that matter, I wouldn't put it past SE to just take the nuclear option and ban everyone that's got more than one personal house on their account.

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What is this? Seriously?

Nowhere in the terms of service nor ingame does it say that one is forbidden from owning multiple houses if they are wanting and able to purchase them. What unintended behavior of which we've heard nothing from the devs themselves would ban people next?

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

I wouldn't be surprised if they just mass banned them all.

For that matter, I wouldn't put it past SE to just take the nuclear option and ban everyone that's got more than one personal house on their account.

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Will never happen. Nobody broke rules.
If SE wanted to have it 1 per account they would made those restriction a long time ago, i'm thinking they can't even do that in the current system without redoing it.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So, what are the alleged advantages to a lottery system? What is it even supposed to mean, exactly?

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The only advantage I can think of is it eliminates the problem of backed up login queues and other load related problems in regards to buying a house. By running a lottery they can open a window for players to apply and be assigned an entry number. At some later point they can close the application window and do the drawing. Other than applying none of it requires the player to be logged on so gives everyone an equal chance at winning (assuming even odds). They would still need to restrict applications to one per account/server to stop multi-house purchases and resellers but even if they didn't a lottery reduces the odds of someone getting more than a single house.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I've read the whole interview, I'm just wondering why anyone would tout "a process or thing whose success or outcome is governed by chance" as a means of finding equilibrium between opportunity-equality and desire-equitability.

Some people want houses a whole lot more than others and will expend higher effort and/or resources to obtain one. A lottery does not help their situation whatsoever.

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SE has no obligation or incentive to care about "desire-equitability"; does it happen anywhere and it's not a bad thing?

i really want to buy the new Tesla.
i really want reservations at this restaurant.
i really want those play/game/concert tickets.

the only thing that encourages is scalping.

equal opportunity is the only thing they should be concerned about and a lottery can do that (if they limit it to per account and not per character).

what i would find interesting is if they do a lottery for every plot and each account only has 6 bids, 3 for personal and 3 for FC or if they did 3 different lotteries for the plot sizes and people can do all 3 if they want to.

For what it's worth, I have a house so it doesn't matter to me but I think a lottery is a terrible idea. They need to fix the crashing that's happening when people try to log on after the server goes up.... or find some way to address it. Perhaps they should open the server and give people time to get on and things to stabilize and then they could open the housing areas a few hours later? I'm not sure but there has to be some way to approach this issue.

A lottery system may sound great to some, but I always felt like if you wanted something nice you should work hard for it. People who really want a house badly enough will try their best. They will wake up at ungodly hours, memorize a route, have back ups and alternatives in mind, etc. Many people voiced the opinion, "If I just wasn't fast enough, fine. I can accept that. But I couldn't even get my foot in the race to start because I got an error!"

A lottery system would mean anyone, no matter how much they wanted a house (or how little) could put in for one as long as they had the funds. I guess this is nice for those casual players who kind of think a house would be nice but don't want one badly enough to stay up late or wake up early or plan their schedule around it to get one. But I think this takes the feeling of control away from people. People like to feel as if they have done everything they could in order to get something and a lottery feels .... bad. You can't prep for a lottery. You can't improve your odds for a lottery. You can't work hard to make your chances a bit better.

But this is just my two cents and clearly there are people who disagree with it. But I just think they should work on fixing the log in issues and errors.

Honestly there is a lot of 'benefit of the doubt' being given here. I simply don't think it will both be 'fair' for everyone AND plots not sell out quickly. I think he is either underestimating demand or overestimating what ever system they have planned as being 'fair.'

Buying via Achievements points would definitely not be fair in the slightest, not even as fair as a lottery system. Lottery system would at least be fair in the sense everyone would get a chance at a house when right now that is clearly not the case.

What really annoys me is why they aren't simply skipping to the end on this thing. Until supply of PLOTS (not apartments or even allowing gardening to everyone regardless of housing) meet or exceed demand it will continue to be a problem. Trying to keep some idea of 'exclusivity' or "its not enough I succeed, you have to fail" can not possibly be worth all this effort. Are there swathes of people who will literally unsub because other people are able to get houses?

Everyone pays a sub to fund content. Its one thing not to want to play or refuse to put in the effort to play content but housing is where no matter how hard you try you can still be blocked. Until everyone who pays a subscription has the ability to buy a plot legitimately on the server, area and size of their choice given they have the gil to do so, this will continue to be a problem.
Anything less is waste of time and resources on their part.

Given their unwillingness to let us know what their plans are to keep us from preparing for new plots, a lottery seems unlikely. You can't really prepare for a randomized system like that.

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Originally Posted by Dustytome

Given their unwillingness to let us know what their plans are to keep us from preparing for new plots, a lottery seems unlikely. You can't really prepare for a randomized system like that.

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Where do they say that? Only time I read they didn't want to reveal plans was because they didn't want to fuel speculation, not because they didn't want people to prepare.

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

To prevent speculation, we will refrain from releasing information until absolutely necessary. We ask for your patience and understanding until we can provide you with these details.

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Originally Posted by Scardon

Where do they say that? Only time I read they didn't want to reveal plans was because they didn't want to fuel speculation, not because they didn't want people to prepare.

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Posted on page 6, but the interview was here.

Ah yes. I must allow more replies per page than others since this thread only goes to 3 pages for me.

Preparing could also be leveling up alts, since they need to be of a certain level to be able to buy a house. More alts = more entries in a lottery. Apparently asking specifically about alts got lost in translation to thinking it was multiple accounts. Even if they decided to make it '1 house per server, per account' people could also roll alts on multiple servers to squat on those in preparation to flip.

Basically there are several ways to 'prepare' for a lottery as well.

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Originally Posted by Dustytome

Given their unwillingness to let us know what their plans are to keep us from preparing for new plots, a lottery seems unlikely. You can't really prepare for a randomized system like that.

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yea, you can. what if you can do a lottery for yourself and your FC. wouldn't an FC mass recruit?

it really depends on how you think the lottery will work.

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Originally Posted by Scardon

Where do they say that? Only time I read they didn't want to reveal plans was because they didn't want to fuel speculation, not because they didn't want people to prepare.

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However their lack of a clear statement of direction is fueling speculation.

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Originally Posted by Claviusnex

However their lack of a clear statement of direction is fueling speculation.

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there's 2 different definitions of speculation. the one you're talking about is not the one that YoshiP was talking about.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

there's 2 different definitions of speculation. the one you're talking about is not the one that YoshiP was talking about.

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5.
engagement in business transactions involving considerable risk but offering the chance of large gains, especially trading in commodities, stocks, etc., in the hope of profit from changes in the market price.

This is the only other definition that is significantly different and doesn't apply. I wouldn't be forced to guess as to the second definition if you bothered to elaborate instead of posting the equivalent of 'WRONG'

I have posted on this before. Any type of auction house would fail. Some of us have been around and crafting a long time and have a lot of gil, competing against players like me is pointless and would cause others to turn to rmt which would be an issue. As for 4.2 have a random timer starting 20 minutes after servers up to sell houses so everyone can log in. The timer will release all houses for sale over a 2 hour window of start to reduce that major server rush. I missed my dream house in 4.1 due to queue times. As for those with more than one house that don't flip, some of us were on servers that did not sell all housing when private houses came up for a long time. Hands off my second house, I have been here since beta and I play 4 characters. Allow all characters on our account to use the house. Increase number of guests we can have on our houses, I share both of my houses with others that do not have a house, including letting them decorate the house as they want, other than a small spot I took for myself for crafting. As for selling or losing a house, all houses go back to SE to be re sold by SE only. No private sales to a "friend". Players flipping houses are a pain and I am sure many here know who owns more than one house cause they love housing and those that buy housing solely to flip them. I know some that sub and log in every 40 days so they don't lose their house(not currently as auto demolish is stopped). Let them sell the house back to SE while they don't use it so they can get another house later when they come back to the game(assuming SE really adds enough housing). Last, please consider the number of players on a server and make enough housing to handle all but the mega servers. Why not enough on the high pop servers? Cause the low pop servers will have a lot of wasted housing space. Encourage players to change servers to get a house. You can play and chat with friends across servers now, so move if housing matters that much to you.

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Originally Posted by Scardon

5.
engagement in business transactions involving considerable risk but offering the chance of large gains, especially trading in commodities, stocks, etc., in the hope of profit from changes in the market price.

This is the only other definition that is significantly different and doesn't apply. I wouldn't be forced to guess as to the second definition if you bothered to elaborate instead of posting the equivalent of 'WRONG'

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couldn't of just used plain old google for your definition?

spec·u·la·tion
ˌspekyəˈlāSH(ə)n/Submit
noun
1.
the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.
"there has been widespread speculation that he plans to quit"
2.
investment in stocks, property, or other ventures in the hope of gain but with the risk of loss.
"the company's move into property speculation"

it's right there in the sample "property speculation", since this is about the purchase of property it totally applies. even your definition can apply (even though property is hidden under "etc"), that's exactly what they don't want.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

couldn't of just used plain old google for your definition?

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Couldn't have done it yourself in your first reply?

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

it's right there in the sample "property speculation", since this is about the purchase of property it totally applies. even your definition can apply (even though property is hidden under "etc"), that's exactly what they don't want.

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Unless some how buying current houses, when the problem is they are all sold, would result in an issue with the new system no, it doesn't apply. Just because we are talking about property in a game and the definition also has property as an example doesn't mean they are related. You have to sync up a lot more than a game of 'match 2'

The only way it might is him announcing something makes house flippers more aggressively sell houses because they are about to lose their investments with a new system. In which case simply saying he doesn't want THIS kind of 'speculation' confirms that on its own. So by saying if he reveals the system it will fuel property speculation he is actually still fueling property speculation. Its like saying "if I reveal my companies plans for the future the stock will drop severely," thus having the stock drop severely.

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Originally Posted by Scardon

Couldn't have done it yourself in your first reply?

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I could have but I overestimated the internet skills of the people that would respond to my post. My bad.

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Originally Posted by Scardon

So by saying if he reveals the system it will fuel property speculation he is actually still fueling property speculation. Its like saying "if I reveal my companies plans for the future the stock will drop severely," thus having the stock drop severely.

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Nope, your quote is wrong
"if I reveal my companies plans for the future the stock will drop severely,"

This is more accurate:
"if I reveal my companies plans for the future the stock will change"

There's no hint of rising or dropping and the type of speculation is very different if you can't tell if prices will drop or rise. That's why they don't put items and recipe lists on prelim patch notes. Sometimes a mat gets added to a recipe and the price skyrockets, sometimes it gets added to like Company Seals and the price tanks. saying changes are coming does not automatically trigger actions if you are vague about what the changes are.

Whatever they choose to do, he mentions a restriction of some sort, and says:

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The reason why we do not want to disclose any detail is that we want to give a fair chance to everyone. If we told you our plans, players will immediately start to prepare and we want to avoid that.

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Which is exactly why i got rid of all but one of my personal houses, I would bet that house reselling is coming to an end with a new timer placed on a plot after its relinquished either manually or by 45 days of no activity, to prevent the reselling happening altogether, and relocation reselling as well.

Why would they be so concerned about reselling when the real issue is, there's simply enough enough houses? If we had the appropriate amount of housing, there theoretically won't be any more resellers. (Unless of course you want me to harp on like a broken record about the ratio of small:medium:large houses per ward...)

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

There's no hint of rising or dropping and the type of speculation is very different if you can't tell if prices will drop or rise. That's why they don't put items and recipe lists on prelim patch notes. Sometimes a mat gets added to a recipe and the price skyrockets, sometimes it gets added to like Company Seals and the price tanks. saying changes are coming does not automatically trigger actions if you are vague about what the changes are.

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Again you are ignoring one key factor, the only place housing is a problem is where there is no available plots. Therefore, unless the devs are turbo powered stupid, plans are going to be put in place to cause portions of CURRENT DEMANDS to drop. Obviously doing something to INCREASE demand when they already can't meet it would also be quite ill advised. And since you seem to be one of the people who think YoshiP can do no wrong you would be willing to accept the premise of lowering current demands opposed to the latter.

By saying property speculation is possible, he has confirmed the way current demand is handled is going to be changed after the update that doesn't not include simply adding additional wards since he already confirmed as much, so more wards can not be part of this potential speculation. Something in addition to more wards is going to be implemented to handle demand, and its going to be different than more supply leaving only a change to fundamentally lower demand. This means house flippers, players who own multiple houses and possibly 'excessive vacancies' or underused plots are potential targets and those people are now 'speculating' on property. All because he said he did not want to fuel speculation.

Unless he means the 'conjecture' which has also been fueled.

Saying something akin to "We don't want to reveal details yet because it will change things dramatically" pretty much guarantees people are preparing from multiple angles.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

This is more accurate:
"if I reveal my companies plans for the future the stock will change"

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Which would instantly cause the stock to change. It happens all. the. time.

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Originally Posted by Acilith

Why would they be so concerned about reselling when the real issue is, there's simply enough enough houses?

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Because people reselling for profit is part of the reason why there isn't enough houses. Therefore if demand is an issue, so is reselling.

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Originally Posted by Scardon

Because people reselling for profit is part of the reason why there isn't enough houses. Therefore if demand is an issue, so is reselling.

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Right, so tackling the demand issue is the best way to get rid of the reseller issue. For every single suggestion to 'kill the flippers', I kinda tilt my head and easily think of ways to get around it. And I also squint because most of these suggestions hurt honest players.

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Originally Posted by Acilith

Right, so tackling the demand issue is the best way to get rid of the reseller issue. For every single suggestion to 'kill the flippers', I kinda tilt my head and easily think of ways to get around it. And I also squint because most of these suggestions hurt honest players.

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There is no system someone can't beat, the point is to make it as cumbersome as possible TO beat, therefore making it much less frequent. The fact a plan isn't 100% effective doesn't mean its invalid.

They have made it clear repeatedly they simply can't increase demand so dramatically as to both easily meet legitimate demand as well as anyone trying to flip houses. This means simply saying 'moar plotz' is a waste of time. So if more supply can not be created, illegitimate demand (profiteering) must be deterred.

I still hold out hope for 1 plot per server, per account. Players being completely deprived of housing is far more 'harmful' than players no long being able to control multiple plots. Both to players and profits since homeless people who desire plots FAR outweigh the extremely small minority of multi-plot owners.

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Originally Posted by Scardon

There is no system someone can't beat,the point is to make it as cumbersome as possible TO beat, therefore making it much less frequent. The fact a plan isn't 100% effective doesn't mean its invalid.

They have made it clear repeatedly they simply can't increase demand so dramatically as to both easily meet legitimate demand as well as anyone trying to flip houses. This means simply saying 'moar plotz' is a waste of time. So if more supply can not be created, illegitimate demand (profiteering) must be deterred.

I still hold out hope for 1 plot per server, per account. Players being completely deprived of housing is far more 'harmful' than players no long being able to control multiple plots. Both to players and profits since homeless people who desire plots FAR outweigh the extremely small minority of multi-plot owners.

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Thats total BS. SE has the money to buy enough servers to meet demand its there personal choice not to..... it can be done,its not a coding issue (which still could be fix) its a storage issuse so buy more stroage but they don't want to put the $$$ into it is all. The problem is everyone is willing to settle for small fixs . If these threads were add enough houses or our money is going else where once they seen enough people at that rage point they add more..

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Originally Posted by Siniztor

Thats total BS. SE has the money to buy enough servers to meet demand its there personal choice not to..... it can be done,its not a coding issue (which still could be fix) its a storage issuse so buy more stroage but they don't want to put the $$$ into it is all. The problem is everyone is willing to settle for small fixs . If these threads were add enough houses or our money is going else where once they seen enough people at that rage point they add more..

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Let me rephrase, not can't, won't. Them being conservative with servers is why multiple problems occur with the game over the entire existence. Server side combat lag, inventory restrictions, instance timers, bottle necking for MSQ steps, and housing to name a few. Yes, more hardware and bandwidth could solve these problems (while cutting into profits) but they would have already done it if they were open to the option. Its pretty clear part of their overall business plan is to keep the servers at a minimum. They even did it on FF11 for a time where they would purge inactive characters to free up space, one of the few MMO's that have ever done this as part of regular policy and not a 'one time' thing.

So again, simply demanding they add hardware to easily meet demands is a waste of time. You are demanding they change their entire business, cost/profit model for more in game housing. Even if they were some how convinced then something else about the game would fundamentally change to make up for it. P2W, having to pay extra for content updates, less content overall, overall quality drop. Something would have to give.

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Originally Posted by Scardon

Let me rephrase, not can't, won't.

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Thank you. one of my pet peves is people defending SE saying its impossable for them to add more when it boils down to just what you said in this reply cost/profit

I am for 1 house/FC and apt per server BUT, they should make it so your alts can save at your house also. They should also not make relocation and purchasing so cumbersome.

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Originally Posted by Scardon

Because people reselling for profit is part of the reason why there isn't enough houses. Therefore if demand is an issue, so is reselling.

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The #1 reason why there isn't enough houses is because there literally is not enough houses. Period. It doesn't matter if no one resold a house. There will never be enough houses with the current system.