Yoshi P./Dev team/Job balance team Please Say Something About DRK

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

I apologise if I've offended, I don't use that "I can clear content with it" as a reason to deny buffs. Despite raiding savage, I'm well aware that I'm a mediocre player at best.

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S'all good chum. I'm a shite DRK myself, never tried to deny it. Hell, I'm one of those plebs that sits in Grit a majority of fights I'm MTing.
It's just a general, beyond-this-forum-everyone-says-that-shite knee jerk reaction.

Dark knights no longer have any argument

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Originally Posted by Gojin

Dark knights no longer have any argument

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DRK still has the lowest DPS, lower burst DPS than WAR, weakest mitigation suite, least party utility, lower mobility than WAR, weakest enmity maintenance, the largest number of useless and underpowered skills, the largest DPS penalties to make use of the mitigation tools they do have, etc.

Every single argument that DRK needs serious buffs is valid.

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Originally Posted by Gojin

Dark knights no longer have any argument

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It is times like this I wish I had some ironic quote that summarized how I feel. Oh wait, I do.

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Originally Posted by Gojin

oh look another War who has PLD lvled to 70 you dont get an opinion sorry bye.

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...29#post4377829

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Originally Posted by Gojin

real talk if you have PLD on main you dont even get an opinion about WARs get gone yo.

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...23#post4371823

Funny how when it isn't our job on the line we like deny others issues.

Don't pay the toll to go into that hole.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

It is time like this I wish I had some ironic quote that summarized how I feel. Oh wait, I do.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...29#post4377829

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...23#post4371823

Funny how when it isn't our job on the line we like deny others issues.

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Kind of hilarious that by his logic he shouldn't get to have an opinion about DRKs now. I mean after all he has both PLD and WAR leveled to 70! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Crater

DRK still has the lowest DPS, lower burst DPS than WAR, weakest mitigation suite, least party utility, lower mobility than WAR, weakest enmity maintenance, the largest number of useless and underpowered skills, the largest DPS penalties to make use of the mitigation tools they do have, etc.

Every single argument that DRK needs serious buffs is valid.

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I will admit Power Slash combo is great when people aren't using diversion... also it looks cool...

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

It is times like this I wish I had some ironic quote that summarized how I feel. Oh wait, I do.



http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...29#post4377829



http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...23#post4371823

Funny how when it isn't our job on the line we like deny others issues.

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I have every tank leveled not seeing your point, the argument here is dark knight cleared world first why are dark knight mains still complaining stay on subject instead of bringing up old stuff.

Yay for random post deletions for no apparent reason.

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Originally Posted by Gojin

I have every tank leveled not seeing your point, the argument here is dark knight cleared world first why are dark knight mains still complaining stay on subject instead of bringing up old stuff.

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We're still complaining because being able to clear content was never what we were complaining about. The only one that isn't on the right subject, frankly, is you.

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Originally Posted by Gojin

I have every tank leveled not seeing your point, the argument here is dark knight cleared world first why are dark knight mains still complaining stay on subject instead of bringing up old stuff.

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Well as it has been said in multiple threads over the past few days, viability in content is not the same as balance. For example, warriors when 4.0 dropped we viable in all content. I must insist, though we'll never know, that if stance penalties had remained warrior could have cleared all content. This wouldn't mean warrior was balanced, it would mean it was viable. Dark knight is in the same position now.

My post is pointing on that you denied others an opinion because "warrior wasn't their main" when they spoke up about whether or not warrior changes were necessary. Now here you are trying to do the same thing to dark knight.

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Originally Posted by Gojin

I have every tank leveled not seeing your point, the argument here is dark knight cleared world first

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Not "Dark Knight". This team with this player as a Dark Knight. Trying to use it to justify that the job is fine is denying everything about the players themselves.

And who's to say that, if that player chose PLD instead of DRK, he wouldn't have cleared it faster and better ?

Don't feed the troll people.

Found something funny that is kind of relevant. Bollocks, eh Sidurgu?
https://i.imgur.com/FDRTl1T.jpg

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Originally Posted by SummerScorcher

Found something funny that is kind of relevant. Bollocks, eh Sidurgu?
https://i.imgur.com/FDRTl1T.jpg

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That's a reference to the 60 PLD job quest, where when two paladins meet, one has to prove themselves the superior over the other, because the job crystal says so.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

That's a reference to the 60 PLD job quest, where when two paladins meet, one has to prove themselves the superior over the other, because the job crystal says so.

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Ah yes I remember, but still, it has some truth to it outside of the lore hahaha ;)

http://www.psu.com/feature/34640/int...future-content


PSU: You recently made changes to the Warrior job that has caused some dark knights to now feel slightly less useful in the end game scene, with certain moves like Dark Passenger feeling much less useful. Are there any plans to address these potential balance issues?

Naoki Yoshida:
While we are always looking closely at community opinions on adjustments, the team currently feels that these recent changes have not made a largely visible disparity between the classes. Many players are tackling the Unending Coil of Bahamut (Ultimate) and the trends in strategy and party composition is also a big indicator for us as well. However, I do not think it wrong to say that the contribution warrior can now bring with Shake it Off is more visibly apparently when compared to dark knight.

I .... am disapointed

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However, I do not think it wrong to say that the contribution warrior can now bring with Shake it Off is more visibly apparently when compared to dark knight.

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He... Actually thinks TBN is Raid Utility.........

I have no words.

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Originally Posted by Deathshiro

He... Actually thinks TBN is Raid Utility.........

I have no words.

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I mean, it technically is, just not raid-wide utility, and not too good either.

Welp. Back to the bullpen.

It's at best ambiguous as f*ck, at worst... well, at worst, we'll be the PLD of 4.X. But PLD in 4.X at least had a niche.

It is really very clear that they aren't actually responding to player raised issues. The team thinks the class is fine and that is all that matters.

Direct question about dark passenger: No comment

Forums: Less utility, dps, and lower up times on mitigation than Paladin and Warrior. No Comment.

Ok.

Let's look at what tanks got in this expansion:

Paladin Gained:
1. Gets to block magic, can refill its gauge quickly getting a self shield that works really well on tank busters and mitigates only 4% less than Dark Knights strongest skill.

2. Gained the ability to have uninterruptible casting, as well as had all of its mana costs cut in half.

3. Cover buffed to mitigate damage and cover magical damage

4. Party shield

5. New powerful magic attack.

6. oGCD skill which buffs its hard hitting magical attacks/increases its self healing if you choose to. Buffed by its physical cooldown

7. Several potency buffs to its dps combo.

8. The ability to share your mitigation with your cotank

Lost:
1. Made several contributions to the new CR system, has room to slot everything back.

2. Halone combo debuff removed

3. Foresight

4. Bloodbath

Warrior Gained:
1. Gained an oGCD gap closer on half the cooldown and 33% longer range than the dark knight equivalent. Used in dps rotation as a guage dump, generates enmity.

2. Gained a resource cut allowing it to double the number of its hardest hitting moves, accessible every other burst window, prevents many negative effects which could work against it (push backs, stuns, and binds, and sleep).

3. Gained a powerful oGCD attack which ignores its tank stance penalty and is buffed by its tank stance, a defensive cooldown, and its offensive cooldown.

4. Gained a party wide shield on a short cooldown

5. Potency buffs and guage buffs to its dps combo

6. Selfsustain buffs to moves in tank stance

7. Removed the requirement of needing to burn its mitigation in order to fuel burst phase.

8. Gained access to Rampart, a better alternative to its native cooldown

Lost:
1. oGCD Stun

2. Raid wide mitigation

3. Low potency Dot removed

4. Lost foresight, but gained rampart

5. RIP Bloodbath

6. Mercy Stroke

7. Lost access to second wind through CR system

8. Internal release (crit version)

Dark Knight Gained:
1. Gained Delirium buffing resource generating abilities, is 1/4 the potency of the warrior and paladin equivalents.

2. Gained an AOE move which helps restore mana

3. Gained a single target hard hitting move.

4. Gained a shield which can be used frequently but can be risky to use as frequently as is available.

5. Resource generating abilities buffed to generate the new resource.

6. Potency of dps combo raised, blood generation added to dps combo ender

Lost:
1. oGCD stun, the potency of the stun, and the proc mechanic reseting the stun

2. Lost a fluff cooldown in dark dance

3. Lost Reprisal, 250 potency with a damage down debuff

4. Lost access to foresight as a cooldown through CR system

5. Dark Passenger potency cuts to oblivion

6. Unleash potency cuts

7. Contributions to the CR system cannot all be slotted back without giving up necessary tank moves.

8. Selfsustained lowered

9. Lost a high potency dot

10. Lost access to Mercy Stroke through CR system

11. Magical debuff from DPS combo removed (RIP 3.x Delirium)

If that interview answer is saying what it appears to be saying ...

Well there are not enough carpenters in Gridania to make all the tables that would need flipping.

If the team thinks that DRK is balanced with the other tanks they are quite simply wrong and there is a great deal of data that shows this.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

If that interview question is saying what it appears to be saying ...

Well there are not enough carpenters in Gridania to make all the tables that would need flipping.

If the team thinks that DRK is balanced with the other tanks they are quite simply wrong and there is a great deal of data that shows this.

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I think a more accurate assessment would be "We don't think the differences are large enough to give a shit about." Not that there aren't any. Not much of a consolation, but still a window into the black void that is SE's thought process.

Yeah, I also took it as "Its more noticeable what utility WAR brings because fo Shake it Off, but still just as many ppl bring DRK or dont reject DRK for us to care."

(Honestly, as much as I would like to be balanced as DRK, I'd easily not care about balance if I found the job as enjoyable as I did in 3.x)

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Lost:
1. Made several contributions to the new CR system, has room to slot everything back.

2. Halone combo debuff removed

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You can't really count Mercy Stroke and Foresight to DRK without counting them for PLD too.
PLD also lost Stoneskin (And Cure that was very useful at low level)

And you forgot that WAR lost Internal Release ;)

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You can't really count Mercy Stroke and Foresight to DRK without counting them for PLD too.
PLD also lost Stoneskin (And Cure that was very useful at low level)

And you forgot that WAR lost Internal Release ;)

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Fixed except for cure and stone skin since, though helpful at low levels, they aren’t really a loss at high levels, especially cure since it barely healed. And stoneskin is kinda like clemency in that you really should not want to use it.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Fixed except for cure and stone skin since, though helpful at low levels, they aren’t really a loss at high levels, especially cure since it barely healed. And stoneskin is kinda like clemency in that you really should not want to use it.

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I don't want to use Passage of Arms either :o Stoneskin was strong during prog lol, can't tell you enough how many lives I've saved during T13 when people had weakness.

Passage of arms is bad for dps, good for prog. But agreed it is the first thing to go once not needed.

But this also reminded me to add intervention to paladin. No idea why this reminded me of it but thanks.

Make dark passanger like spirits within no cost free dps, dark mind 10% damage reduction 20% under dark arts every 2 minutes (be another big def CD people wouldnt mind 3 minute cd for shadow wall), extend TBK by a second or 2. If DP dps isnt enough to even them out u can either raise potencies slighty or give an area skill speed buff to raose group dps. There mitigation would be insain, there DPS wouod be better with possable more utility. These changes are not that big either. The other option would be to buff the hell out of potencies giving them the most DPS but then WARs would be crying again

Yoshi why.... Drk is so clearly worse. Less dps, less mitigation, less utility. Literally anything DRK does, PLD does infinitely better. Even TBN is only a slightly better Sheltron with a minor dps loss....

Remember World First was a JP server which means he automatically thinks DRK is clearly in better or best spot now.... always with the e-peens... someone always to stroke their own or someone else's e-peen just to feel important... Strength is pain, strength is suffering, strength is sacrifice... and clearly World First ultimate clear with DRK chose to sacrifice buffs to DRK to stroke their own e-peen...

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

Remember World First was a JP server which means he automatically thinks DRK is clearly in better or best spot now.... always with the e-peens... someone always to stroke their own or someone else's e-peen just to feel important... Strength is pain, strength is suffering, strength is sacrifice... and clearly World First ultimate clear with DRK chose to sacrifice buffs to DRK to stroke their own e-peen...

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So they should have pretended it was impossible and played WAR instead?

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

If that interview answer is saying what it appears to be saying ...

Well there are not enough carpenters in Gridania to make all the tables that would need flipping.

If the team thinks that DRK is balanced with the other tanks they are quite simply wrong and there is a great deal of data that shows this.

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Yea.. They said something.

Something no DRKs wanted to hear lol

#feelsbad

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Originally Posted by DaulBan

So they should have pretended it was impossible and played WAR instead?

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They probably were trying to clear with that setup no matter what the odds were... But in that interview, Naoki Yoshida pretty much implied "all DRK players of skill levels need to shut up and suck it up because you are not getting any more buff this expansion now that you have cleared world first of the new difficulty" which is how I perceived it... then again it could have been a translation error but let's be honest I think google translate would probably actually use what I just said about how he implied it as an actual translation and WAY MORE people would be pissed about it...

Ok, this is getting blown out of proportion. The key word used in this answer was "Visibly". The Dev team don't see a that much of a "Visible" disparity between the tanks currently. They concede that the utility offered by Shake it off is more "Visibly" apparent than what DRK offers, not that it's the final word in tank utility or usefulness. This was by no means a statement of "NO buffs ever", nor was it a "Shut up and suck it up" statement. It means that all considered the Devs are quite happy with where things stand *At present*. May not be the case by 4.2, may be the case until 5.0. This constant twisting of words to suit party rhetoric isn't doing the DRK community as a whole any favours with either the remainder of the playerbase or any Devs that may or may not be reading these threads. Just everyone (DRKs and non-DRKs) take it down a notch eh?

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Originally Posted by CaTi

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Anger pretty much overwrites logic... Especially since Stormblood early access/launch was probably worse than 1.0 launch... and we all know how that ended...(killing an mmorpg with technical fire but it was THE MOST GLORIES TECHNICAL FIRE EVER) if Naoki Yoshida has plans to kill FF14 for good that will not bode well... which I doubt the guys that are keeping him employed would be happy about that meaning his livelihood is at stake regardless of what the playerbase says... so yeah...

[QUOTE=DRKoftheAzure;4476943 if Naoki Yoshida has plans to kill FF14 for good that will not bode well... which I doubt the guys that are keeping him employed would be happy about that meaning his livelihood is at stake regardless of what the playerbase says... so yeah...[/QUOTE]

I don't even know where to start with that? Where do you get the idea he has any interest in killing the game? Unless you're seriously implying that the very small proportion of DRKs who would unsub rather than continue playing DRK/other jobs would actually have any impact at all on anything. Sorry to disappoint but it's a drop in the ocean really. I don't recall the game being in it's death throes because PLDs were angry back in Heavensward, or Monk for pretty much the entirety of the game for that matter.

Edit- completely borked the quote thing. Oh well :')

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Originally Posted by CaTi

Unless you're seriously implying that the very small proportion of DRKs who would unsub rather than continue playing DRK/other jobs would actually have any impact at all

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Well judging from my research.... you neither player DRK nor have been to any recorded savage content (Shinryu however is fun)

So lets go from here then. Back in 3.x PLD was trash for Alex as almost all tank busters/autos were Magic. Twist this around for 3.x... imagine if all the tank busters were now physical with little-no need for magic defensives. Guess who would have gotten the 4.x buff instead.

All in all, when people stop bringing a job to savage all together the team investigates. Currently in every savage fight I've seen on fflogs so far... PLD/WAR is overtaking DRK in terms of usage & popularity. What Yoshida is implying is that "Well players must not understand how beneficial TBN is, it's less visibly apparently than Shake It Off". This statement is just straight wrong, it's an Apples - Oranges comparison.

TBN is a single target 20%(self) or 10%(another person) hp shield that costs a hefty amount of personal resources on a 15 second cooldown

Shake It Off costs nothing, shields the whole group up to 24% (most people only use the base 8% since its free) at the cost of all your personal defensives if going for the 24%. HOWEVER it costs nothing if you only need the base 8%... which is only 2% less than TBN and has a 90 second cooldown.

TL;DR - What does a DRK bring that a WAR or a PLD can't? The answer is nothing, so people won't bring it. With people not bringing it, it will lead to more exposure by the dev team.

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Originally Posted by Deathshiro

meta analysis

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Problem is, even by totally screwing Savage balance, if would never kill the game...in fact, if Savage didn't exist, it wouldn't kill the game, considering the very small part of the playerbase that actually is interested in Savage.

Sorry Deathshiro, the quote thing is being real derpy so bear with me :)

Anyway yes I don't play DRK, tried it for a bit, couldn't really get behind the style of it personally, what's the point being made there?
Second regarding Savage content, I've actually cleared O1S-3S multiple times this tier. where did you get that idea from 'cause I think your data might be a tad off.

But I feel there's some misinterpretation going on here. The point I made in what you quoted me on was that if every DRK who wanted to quit did so this instant, the game would keep ticking on quite happily. (Mostly I was nitpicking Azure's weirdly apocalyptic statement about Yoshi potentially planning to kill the game). Of course if a class suddenly sees a drop in numbers the Devs will notice. They might even do something about it, hopefully they do, DRK does need a few tweaks (probably an AoE shield at this point to level that out). But let's not inflate the impact one job community could really have.

You are off on one point though. You say people won't bring DRK as it offers nothing by comparison? That's already wrong. We know the world first guy did it because he found it fun, even if that's untrue it then indicates DRK offered a competitive advantage that WAR didn't at the time. People *are* bringing DRK, just not in the same volume as they used to is all.

That said you do highlight an interesting point regarding Alexander and the damage types employed in there. DRK has always had a weird mitigation kit. Nothing's different regarding that, just there's no spoon feeding content that benefits DRK going on anymore. So personally I think DRK has always had most of these issues. They just became more apparent because the content isn't covering them up. Also *something* *something* Heavensward DPS is king mentality and DRK outperformed PLD in that context way back when.

There's more I want to add but text wall is text wall and you get what I'm saying :)