Boycotting Dark Knight

It's disappointing that DRK falls behind the way it does but I would rather see some identity carved into the tanks before balanced is addressed.

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Originally Posted by Awful

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It's honestly sad that Drk falls so short against the other tanks whether it be resource management, DPS, Mitigation, and threat, very unacceptable.

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Sorry but what? I can't do anything but fully disagree on this lol. I easily can grab hate from Wars and Paladins, doesn't even take effort. If you're running out of resources to mitigate damage, then you're simply playing it wrong.
No, ofcourse the class can use a few fixes here and there, but it really isn't as bad as you make it out to be.

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Originally Posted by Syrellaris

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In a raid setting without a Nin meaning Savage content Drk is indeed behind, in Savage you're pushing your DPS to the max by not being in tank stance giving up your threat as if you even DA + Power Slash you lose more DPS than Pld and War if they were to pull as War is the defacto threat beast they can start off in Unchained and use Equilibrium as a buffer if they want to, and Pld has OGCD threat Abilities while MTing.

As for the resource management yes, Drk in raids go into longer fights outside of their 2 min Delirium combo either starving for Mana, Blood, or both, in dungeons it's hardly noticeable as you can spam Blood price and TBN on trash to get tons of resources back, not to mention Soul Survivor you can really only use Soul Survivor in O3S and O4S so that move is null.

In terms of mitigation the other 2 tanks have Drk beat in party wide utility and personal mitigation as well as situational mitigation so there's no point arguing in that.

Read the rest of the forum posts about Drk that have been more than helpful as they go into greater detail, but yes Drk in previous posts and in this discussion the class is indeed behind in every aspect of Pld and War.

Edit: was gonna add that Drk has the lowest Emnity multiplier of the 3 tanks but Chrono beat me to it lol

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Originally Posted by Syrellaris

Sorry but what? I can't do anything but fully disagree on this lol. I easily can grab hate from Wars and Paladins, doesn't even take effort. If you're running out of resources to mitigate damage, then you're simply playing it wrong.
No, ofcourse the class can use a few fixes here and there, but it really isn't as bad as you make it out to be.

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This isn't really a thread for convincing people of dark knights short comings. There are enough feedback posts, many linked in the OP if you are really interested. But I'll summarize here:

Threat combo
Though Power slash is the highest potency enmity generator by a small margin, the multiplier on that enmity move is the smallest of the three tanks. You need to expend your dps resource to have hate. When trying to hold hate and not use tank stance, dark has no oGCD enmity modifying moves to help maintain enmity, both Warrior and Paladin do as part of their dps rotation. In general I don't try to take hate from my co-tank unless it is planned, so I cannot really comment on this.

Dps
Dark knight played at the same level of skill has the least dps of the three tanks.

Mitigation
Dark Knights have less free resources for mitigation than both paladin and warrior. Furthermore, to have even close to as much you need to expend dps resource to come close.

Dark Knight is active and resource based, and to many feels like a risk/reward tank. You risk your dps resource to try and get that TBN to pop, you risk main tanking even though you have less tools to manage enmity and avoid your enmity combo for as long as possible to put out more dps combos, your ultimate "prevent me from dying" is a risk in that if you aren't healed eventually you die anyway. All these risks, you would think there would be a nice pay off, but at the end of the day you don't get a pay off. You do less dps, mitigate less damage, and after doing so much to maximize everything, you are rewarded with doing less than any other tank in the same position.

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Originally Posted by Syrellaris

Sorry but what? I can't do anything but fully disagree on this lol. I easily can grab hate from Wars and Paladins, doesn't even take effort. If you're running out of resources to mitigate damage, then you're simply playing it wrong.
No, ofcourse the class can use a few fixes here and there, but it really isn't as bad as you make it out to be.

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Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh what? There should not be any contest in grabbing aggro from another tank in ANY raid scenario, they're called your co-tank for a reason. DRKs currently have the LEAST amount of aggro generation among all the tanks: WARs have onslaught with an enmity modifier and can butchers with minimal DPS loss, PLDs have shield swipe and CoS with enmity modifiers. Tell me what DRK has? If you have ever done O4S, DRK will have one of the most complex and tight timing defensive rotation out of the 3 tanks depending on how you tankswap among the aggro resets.

If you look at the bigger picture, there is no reason to ever take a DRK anymore to any of the raids because both PLD and WAR outclass DRK in every tanking aspect as of now. Can DRKs do more damage than WAR or PLD? No. Can DRKs offer a party wide HP shield? No. Can DRKs maintain aggro against DPS better than WAR or PLD? No. Does DRK offer a good invincibility ability (Living Dead) vs WAR or PLD? No.

Just a note, because I'm sure there are more examples of this, but some people already left early on when it was apparent that we were being ignored.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...65#post4402765

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Originally Posted by Falar

Well its official for me. Haven't played in weeks, the class just isn't as fun anymore so I cancelled my subscription and will check back around 4.5x time or maybe the next expansion if things look promising.

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It honestly wouldn't be so bad if we werent being blatantly ignored by the dev team. Is it really that difficult to respond to feedback? Forum posts about DRK have been on the front page, multiple at a time as well, yet we still get no response. Is this seriously their idea of balance; 2 jobs work just fine while the other is 4-man fodder. If that's the case that's some really s#!t balance.

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Originally Posted by 347SPECTRE

2 jobs work just fine while the other is 4-man fodder.

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The funniest thing about it is that it's kind of questionable whether you can still claim that DRK takes home the crown for stupid 4-man dungeons that nobody cares about; the Steel Cyclone buff (that nobody was even really asking for) pretty much gave WAR comparable self-sustain on dungeon pulls, even though WAR already had their massive toolkit of defensive options.

DRK might still edge it out, but the margin on that is so razor-thin that nobody's going to be sitting there being jealous of DRK's Light Party dungeon dominance.

Who said to compete with them? I merely said I have no issues grabbing aggro from them, not that I was competing with them, you just have asshat tanks in PF / DF / AR that sometimes do compete with you. Quite annoying really.

Also, I never said the class doesn't need some love, I said I don't agree on some parts. Yeah the dps is a bit low, but enmity and mana wise we are fine. Blood could use a tweak and grit, should be free/no cooldown.
DRK doesn't need a party wide shield.. Really they don't. We have 3 tanks, each tank should play completely differently in my opinion. We don't need 3 cookie cutter tanks that all do the same thing but with a different flashy animation.

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Originally Posted by Syrellaris

We have 3 tanks, each tank should play completely differently in my opinion. We don't need 3 cookie cutter tanks that all do the same thing but with a different flashy animation.

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That's never, ever going to happen. SE likes every class within a given role to be built on the exact same gameplay framework, because it's easier to design, tune, and balance classes that way. They're already barely able to handle tank balance and tuning with three classes that do play extremely similarly, and what we're seeing right now is that SE is actually unable to keep themselves from increasing the imbalances between those three tanks.

It also took them literally more than a year from the time when they publicly said that they knew that Parry was useless (which is to say, they probably were well aware of that fact internally before they ever made a public statement), to the point where they changed it to Tenacity. And that change was literally nothing but copy/pasting the code for Determination, lowering the scaling factor, and then having it do the same thing for lowering incoming damage.

It took them 3-4 months from when they promised to change Shake It Off to the actual implementation of that change, even though the effects are uncomplicated and the balance on the skill is absolutely nonexistent.

SE are extremely slow to implement changes, and can barely manage to make simple changes even if you give them months to make them happen. Asking them to carve out a completely new and unique identity for Dark Knight is not realistic, and should not be used as a deflection to keep them from making the simple changes that could be implemented now to address problems that have been in the game since mere weeks after Stormblood launched, and have been getting worse since then.

@Crater Shamefully you are probably correct yes.

I mean I don't want to come across as just crapping on what you're saying, because yeah, I definitely agree that having strong class identity would be the way to go. But I just don't see that as a realistic approach given the current state of the game and the past few years of activity and design/balance work from SE.

(And honestly, while I'm not accusing you personally of doing this, I've noticed a distinct pattern of seeing people call "No we can't do that, it's homogenization!" when it comes to suggestions of giving buffs/parity to Dark Knight, often from the same people who were posting "Warrior is unplayable until it gets party shields, SE please buff" until the SiO change.)

No harm done :) I know I sometimes Butt heads with people on class balances and opinions regarding it. While I do like to see each class was different, even I know that is asking for the impossible with SE and that they prefer, as you said, cookie cutter templated for tanks and other classes, but we can always dream... a little at least haha.

I don't have any intention of dropping my DRK, but I understand where the feeling is coming from. I'm hopeful for 4.2 for changes.

Boycotting a class is not the only form of peaceful protest. Any guidelines on organizing peaceful protests on here?

DRK for me completely lost its charm on SB launch. It is no longer fun to play. Boycotting the class myself; leveling a war to replace it right now.

It's just a flavor of the month mentality from the devs. 3.0 they went out of their way to make DRK feel great and for a long time Paladin was a waste of time to play meanwhile Warrior became super amazing.

Now we have a super fun Paladin and now a super fun Warrior while now DRK is sitting in the DRK having lost it all.

It really says something when Yoshi P in 3.0 goes "magic attacks will never be able to be blocked" and in 4.0 lo and behold Paladin can block magic now. Um ok.

Paladin and Warrior are in a really good place I would think. DRK has half it's kit gutted, lost it's identity and fluidity and apparently their one trick pony is going to utterly rely on TBN for everything.

I'd imagine overall DPS would be on par with PLD/WAR if our 500 Pot Dot in Scourge was still a thing. And not using DP means a skill with damage we aren't using because the cost is too great.

TiamatShadowScale and MagiusNecros said all.
Again, it's not just about spq or raid mitigation, it's about fun.
The DRK's 70's gameplay is not even interresting as the lvl 60 of the WAR and the PLD...
War is a game about counting Fell Cleave with all other abilities to raise your dps and your beast gauge, Pld is a game about a magic burst phase, a physical burst phase and a dot gestion, since Drk is just spamming DASE, using a "Blood" buff + Délirium when it's up and using Bloodspiller asap.
And if you are OT, you don't even have to think about well placing DA, since the potency gain is 140 whatever the attack you use... Yay.

Oh, I think I'm becoming salty about the DRK's case...

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Originally Posted by Azerhan

Drk is just spamming DASE, using a "Blood" buff + Délirium when it's up and using Bloodspiller asap.
And if you are OT, you don't even have to think about well placing DA, since the potency gain is 140 whatever the attack you use... Yay.

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You’re definitely salty :-)
This a very reductive description of DRK.
DRK have total control on when to burst so we should be lining up our burst for every raid buff window.

Spamming fell cleaves isn’t more interesting...

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

You’re definitely salty :-)
This a very reductive description of DRK.
DRK have total control on when to burst so we should be lining up our burst for every raid buff window.

Spamming fell cleaves isn’t more interesting...

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Neither is spamming DA lol DRK is loosing the race my friend especially when your dps is still really dependent on your resources which you don't get much of outside of grit....the class is just 3.0 PLD with a fancy tank buster shield....and don't forget about the games worse skill ever living dead which literally requires a WHM and can put stress on healers during high raid dmg

Not only is DRK straight boring but it's a liability and has less dps than both tanks while offering nothing that they can't already do....

I stop playing DRK except in dungeons, but not for some childish boycoting but simply because the other tank jobs are better. Just give time, they will do balance changes. We need a huge potency increase in the BS and we need Dark passeger back the way it was in 3.x

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

I stop playing DRK except in dungeons, but not for some childish boycoting but simply because the other tank jobs are better. Just give time, they will do balance changes. We need a huge potency increase in the BS and we need Dark passeger back the way it was in 3.x

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You call it childish I call it standing up for something. Sitting and hoping SE will do something hasn’t worked so far, if no one makes noise then there is nothing to change.

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

I stop playing DRK except in dungeons, but not for some childish boycoting but simply because the other tank jobs are better. Just give time, they will do balance changes. We need a huge potency increase in the BS and we need Dark passeger back the way it was in 3.x

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Judging by the amount of threads being posted I'm pretty certain we're at the point where they've been given time. I'm not childishly boycotting either, I'm just cancelling my sub because of this, the Shirogane stuff and the game of course feeling stale at the moment for me. That being said, I'm not really pleased with the lack of response to Dark Knights while literally every other job has been given at least an answer (monks for instance). They can take time but they also need to show they acknowledge us or else we can assume there will be no changes.

take deep breath and realize it just a game people

What’s wrong with people calling for a boycott? This is how most developers realize imbalance. Take destiny for example. When the taken king came outthey released a new subclasss that many people saw as overpowered. Bungie looked at the huge spike of people playing that class and they said “oh okay something needs to be done”.

No thread here has gotten any response from the developers. Allowing them to see a substantial drop in the usage of a class is the next logical step. And people only seem overly adamant about it cause they love the game and they love the class. Theyre just tired of being ignored. Like many people have said before all we want right now is just acknowledgement. A simple “ we hear you and we’re looking into it”

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

You’re definitely salty :-)
This a very reductive description of DRK.
DRK have total control on when to burst so we should be lining up our burst for every raid buff window.

Spamming fell cleaves isn’t more interesting...

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You don't spam Fell Cleave in War. 7 FC is not a good idea at all. Most of the time is 4.
Yeah, it's a little reductive, but even our "burst" is not as good as the Pld or the War...

DRK is (sadly) one of those classes that is fun to play, cool to watch and has nice animations but poor (or none at all) synergy in parties. That's not typically an issue in pre end game content but you don't balance around pre end game. It reminds me of the MNK/SAM/caster classes. Nice on paper. Great dps (well even DRK is third in that regard for its role). No party utility though (or nowhere near the same level as its counterparts) so most groups aren't going to pick the classes up.

DRK is basically the red headed step child of the family so to speak. SE definitely needs to address the issue. When SB launched there was a big change to how synergy was provided by many classes. Sadly, some of them were left off the list and the already ever growing gap for those classes grew even larger.

I support the boycott.

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Originally Posted by dotsforlife

DRK is (sadly) one of those classes that is fun to play, cool to watch and has nice animations but poor (or none at all) synergy in parties. That's not typically an issue in pre end game content but you don't balance around pre end game. It reminds me of the MNK/SAM/caster classes. Nice on paper. Great dps (well even DRK is third in that regard for its role). No party utility though (or nowhere near the same level as its counterparts) so most groups aren't going to pick the classes up.

DRK is basically the red headed step child of the family so to speak. SE definitely needs to address the issue. When SB launched there was a big change to how synergy was provided by many classes. Sadly, some of them were left off the list and the already ever growing gap for those classes grew even larger.

I support the boycott.

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Come support my thread about giving magic vul debuff to DRK so they introduce synergy with casters :D

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

take deep breath and realize it just a game people

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It's pretty reasonable to ask people to be calm about it, and I agree. In my case I'm feeling kind of burned but also bored so I'm taking a break until I feel like I'll enjoy my time here again and luckily though, the rest of our community seems pretty reasonable in this regard for the most part. That being said, it's important to also understand that as consumers, our money and value in a product is significant toward the devs and company backing them. The ones who are a little more vocal, are those who feel their years of investment both time and money being spat on, which obviously is not the dev's intentions. People get upset, and nothing can be done if know one speaks or knows why, so forums posts and game stats help here.

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

take deep breath and realize it just a game people

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Yeah you're right. *nonchalantly goes back to Elder Scrolls Online*

Not sure if everyone saw this, but did we see the reason for the shake it off buff?

«Warrior»
Warrior’s party utility will be increased by changing the effect of Shake It Off and adjusting its party defending capabilities to be more in balance with that of paladin and dark knight.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/350624

I'm guessing their response to TBN feedback is that our utility is equivalent to paladin.

What party defending capabilities are they referring to besides TBN? A 5 sec single target shield that costs tons of resources? I really hope they mention Drk in the Nov 3rd Live Letter if not i'm just going to be eternally sad.

All it means is they gave WAR a dmg shield. So basically to DRK's it doesn't mean anything. It's just a post objectively going over things that were changed in 4.1. Trivial.

i've now levelled my warrior to lv70 and raid-wise my support to the group is far better in any aspect. And i'm not talking about Ultimate, but regular o3s/o4s.



The warrior bring to the table a better dps, better raid mitigation, better aggro management(unchained pull) and for the group without Ninja or Samurai brings the slashing debuff for the Tank's combined dps.


Right now you don't have a reason to bring a Drk over the other two tank, if you do that you are, in a matter of fact, letting outside a set of valuable resources without any good reason or payback.


And, most of all, DrK at this state is far more boring than warrior.

Boycot a class, lol.

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Originally Posted by LittleSparrow

Boycot a class, lol.

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Whether or not there's an 'active' boycott, DRK numbers are lowest and dropping compared to the other tanks in raid content.

Boycotting a tank job for lack of DPS skills...

Seems legit.

#MetasAreCancerous

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Boycotting a tank job for lack of DPS skills...

Seems legit.

#MetasAreCancerous

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What is cancerous is ignorance. If you think DRK's poor DPS is the sole thing everyone is complaining about you haven't even been lurking much less participating constructively in the discussion.

Every one of DRK's defensive cooldowns has at least one significant balance problem with it, we have no party utility, and the job's design as a whole has felt bad ever since 4.0's launch.

...AND our DPS is bad.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Boycotting a tank job for lack of DPS skills...

Seems legit.

#MetasAreCancerous

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Actually, if you read the threads the reasons are that we offer no utility of value, no extra dps, and personally less mitigation compared to the other tanks. Basically there is no reason to run dark knight. But thanks for trying to trivialize the issues :)

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

What is cancerous is ignorance. If you think DRK's poor DPS is the sole thing everyone is complaining about you haven't even been lurking much less participating constructively in the discussion.

Every one of DRK's defensive cooldowns has at least one significant balance problem with it, we have no party utility, and the job's design as a whole has felt bad ever since 4.0's launch.

...AND our DPS is bad.

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Don't forget how, with regards to cross-roles, we got WHM'd.