If one says nothing, then a company never finds out what is causing people to leave. Feedback about WHY you're leaving is critical in improving a product.
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They saw a system designed to force them to sub being implemented, said, "If I can't take breaks without losing all my crap then I'm done with this game." and came back to tell SE that losing everything majorly destroys any incentive to ever sub again.
The only two major issues are SE's design and SE's architecture. Nothing community-wise needs to be done if those problems are addressed properly.
When your means of 'saving' it is paying a sub during a period you will either not be playing or simply can't afford to pay it, I won't fault a person for not playing along.
I was aware of how the system worked, and let my house get demolished, because I won't financially support their terrible housing model. When I did I say I didn't care? Of course I care. I loved this game. I loved my house. I've spent hours on this thread reading and writing replies. I absolutely care. But I want to spend my money on design decisions that are in the best interest of players. Their design decision was either a woefully awful technical hurdle they weren't willing to jump over, or they literally held houses hostage to subscriptions to try to retain players. Just bad. So bad that I wouldn't give them my money, despite how much I really wanted to. And still want to, really. But the punch of deleting my stuff makes that decision a hard one to make.
I knew coming in I'm in the minority on these forums. In general this community is way too forgiving of the developers. I have no qualms challenging people. But I know I'm a voice now for thousands of inactive subs who are never coming back, who are unable to participate in this thread.
I appreciate what they tried to do with housing, to foster communities. Honestly, I think that they should have kept wards just for FCs and just put in the auto demo feature on FCs from the beginning. For personal housing I would have preferred they go instanced. Can you imagine the types of houses we could have then? The types of locations? I'd trade the community feel for being able to live in a remodeled floating Allagan habitat. A bubble of air and shards of land tethered hundreds of feet in the air and surrounded by whatever weather I chose.
Or what about living underwater in the Ruby Sea?
Dwelling in a cute chalet in Coerthas?
A beautiful Oasis surrounded by the corrupted aetherspires of the Burning Wall?
A private little realm all our own to customize as we wish would have been wonderful but it's a path that cannot be chosen now unfortunately.
Gosh yes. They could do it a la Rift's dimensions, where you can unlock different locations to build on. That and instanced housing allows for dramatically increased decor limits (think literally thousands) and more complex placement (all three axes, rotation, resizing).
Plus, the Community feature WildStar has been testing on the PTR proves you can have your cake and eat it too.
Aren't you missing the main point poor design, equaled them not returning? If demolish was to retain subs again poor design is costing the company. Anyway we look at from your post and even most consensus on the forums. Poor design and refusal to admit to the mistake has led to lost subs, player misery and/or resentment like the op.
I love someone who gets the issue. The question is why SE hasn't taken a chance to reset it. 4.x will be doubling down on the issue. They will never have enough hardware with the current design.
The chance to have unique weather set just to your area just like you would orchestration. The things instanced player areas can provide currently outweighs community. I would love to see the average of players per housing area at any given time. I am betting it is not enough to foster a community.
House deletion is a cash grab. This is a very profitable game, but its owners are determined to maximize income received vs. income spent. It's such an obvious cash grab that it bewilders me that people defend it so vociferously. I quit playing Rift seriously three years ago and have gone long months without logging in, but whenever I feel like stopping by, my dimension is still there just as I left it. Same for Wildstar. Same for Old Republic. If these free to play games have got this licked, then what's Squeenix's excuse? Oh, well, see, they just want to you to keep subscribing. Just your standard bit of Asian MMO hostage taking, nothing to see here. Read this prediction: You will see Square sell an option in their cash shop for permanent housing to stay permanent. It's gonna be pricey, and it's gonna happen.
While I do appreciate them for trying to build little neighborhoods, unless you roleplay, need to dye your choco, or cheaply port to a mb/retainer bell, theres no real reason to be in the housing wards. Even here on Balmung, I don’t really see to many people actually out and about.
I had hoped that with the new expansion they would consider starting to roll out some instanced housing, but instead they went and doubled down on the existing crap system. Another limited neighborhood? Neat. Can’t wait to see what the Kugane houses will go for secondhand lol
As for the timer - I don't mind the timer's existence (we really need it on this server), though I wish it were a full 2 months at least.
And I acknowledged that the system is flawed and that improvements must be made. Also it is not a mistake but a choice. Demolishing wasn't about retaining subs it was about letting newer subs have an access to housing from players who quit the game or had unsubbed for extended periods of time. I can guarantee that if the timer was 1 year, players would be up in arms about the timer being too long and plots never becoming vacant at reasonable pricing. Also can we agree that he had unsubbed BEFORE the change was made so it is safe to assume the game lost him on a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ASPECT than the housing? Personally I highly doubt that the terrible housing system is a top contender in the reasons people unsub for.
Lets say he was never coming back.I can agree to that. It doesn't negate the fact that this discussion should come back up. Maintenance fees is one of the dev lies. And while the dev team will sit down and try to sell us plushies. I have yet to see a real discussion about why they refuse to change this system.
People are quitting over the devs team failure to work on inventory in any serious matter. I get the idea why some one would give housing as a reason. It is concrete just like inventory. People would/do just make fun of people who say devs have failed to deliver/work on basic infrastructure and QoL features.
The devs added demolish feature because they support these communities. The system was/is a failure, demolish lets them pretend they have enough turn over everyone could have a chance.
The initial implementation of personal housing is actually one of the major reasons I left.
One of the few points that eased it enough to get me to come back was the introduction of apartments. If they start a policy of destroying those without an alternative, I'm pretty well done too.
He also said something to the effect of "Personal housing will utilize a different system than Company Housing, and prices will, naturally, be far cheaper."
So... yeah...
Not disputing this issue - it's a slippery slope. If someone owned a home, decided to either take an extended break or quit altogether, how is S-E going to determine that the house belongs to a player that just quit outright versus a player who unsubbed?
Some people argue 45 days is more than enough or not enough at all. What is a reasonable amount of time? A year? Never? If someone quits and they own a house, why should they still be entitled to own it if the assets never get used? Tell me how it's fair that someone who hasn't subbed for more than a year with no intention on coming back should keep their house versus someone who needs to take a break past 45 days should receive the same treatment? 45 days is a slap in the face. A year is justifiable to release assets to people who are active.
Or better yet, instanced housing is eternal.
I've also never known for S-E community reps to log in, ask what's up for an individual who makes posts like these because post like these are a dime a dozen. Then again, I've never seen them recently address this housing debacle either.
That's thinking within the walls they engineered around the housing system. What they've done makes sense with what's there. In fact, as I've said, the apartments are actually a decent compromise. But the real issue is why they had to delete houses in the first place...
You're on the right track!
Here you go :)
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/113554
Relevant text to spare the search:
1:14:22
Q: Will there be any maintenance fees or other costs for housing, besides the cost of the land and house?
A: In older MMOs, such as Ultima Online, there was a house maintenance fee you had to pay weekly, but in FFXIV: ARR we decided against this system. Similarly, these older MMOs also had a system where your house would break down if you didn’t log in after a while in order to have you continue your subscription, but this is a thing of the past and we won't have any system like that.
This was in October of 2013. They announced home demolitions in October 2015.
Yes they did say this originally but they also listened to the playerbase. There was a massive thread asking for houses to be removed from people who stopped playing the game.
Also your personal house is really the only one tied to your subscription as only one person can reset it. In my opinion the housing reclamation is fine for FC's but I do agree that it should change for personal housing. Any player you share with should reset the timer.
Things like this are why I have very little respect for the devs.
Perhaps they should have used a skill they should have developed by now, called foresight and thinking through the consequences of design decisions. There is simply no way they couldn't have seen the glaring issues with housing well before it was ever implemented live.
So not only did they create this terrible system, they explicitly said they wouldn't before they did.
If more people held their feet to the fire with their money, like I did, maybe the developers would actually do what the players want/need on the matter. I know they've done a ton - having to relaunch the game as 2.0 was a big deal and they did a good job with that. But come on folks, don't let them get away with bad design too easily.
No need to take a knee-jerk reaction. Just write on the forum what you want changed and hope for the best. lol not going to quit just because there is one element of the game I don't like.
Like I said as much as I don't like the reclamation it's needed and I would be hypocrite to say it shouldn't be in, when I got my FC and personal house that way.
SE had back-peddled on many features within the game after listening to the player-base.
Difference of opinion. If it's not worth my money, I won't spend it. If it's worth it to you to pay a subscription to keep a house even though you aren't truly actively playing the game, go right ahead.
Of course house demolition is needed in the system they set up. In my original post I said exactly that. You like many others fail to think that it never had to be that way.
What kind of reaction did you think gonna happend? If you (one person) stop paying sub they would over night change the whole system?
I personally support the system. IF you dont pay/play - what use is the empty dead plot doing to you? For all I care they could half the waiting period.
If you cared about your house and wasnt stubborn you would login every 40 days to make sure it would be demolished. But you chose the cheap route and stubborness and prove a "point". SE don't and won't care
Funny thing is though you never complained about the lack of houses when you had a house. You talk about putting your money where your mouth is etc or banding together, but where was your support to others who never had a house?
Yes the system needs changing, yes instanced housing needs added or some proper fix. But unfortunately reclamation needs to stay until they come up with a real fix to the problem.
Demolition is a necessary evil. It fixes one thing but breaks another. However demolition very much works in favour of players who actively use their houses, so it is better than before in which you could not log in for over a year and still have your house.
I'd be willing to bet that SE lost more subscriptions from players who had almost no hope of getting a house than from players who lost their house from demolition.
I will add though, for like the millionth time in these forums, that 45 days is stupidly short.
Really? I think it's a bit on the long side. Every MMO I've played that had limited housing gave you a month (EQ2, Asheron's Call), and Archeage (The only MMO in recent memory to not do instanced housing) gave you 2 weeks. Not only that but they all made you pay rent for upkeep. And Archeage had some content you couldn't do if you didn't have a house, much like gardening or airships in FFXIV, so it made even more sense to make the holding period shorter. So, I'm not seeing where the 'stupidly short' comment comes from, when this is one of the, if not the longest grace periods I've ever seen.
I was honestly shocked to learn that people were able to keep hold of housing for over a year before they finally wised up and realized that, hey, people who stopped subbing shouldn't keep this limited resource.
I am saying this based on experience from playing mmos for over ten years. It is actually very common for active players to not log in for a month and a half.
They might have exams or school/college project to do, parents sometimes even prevent them from logging in at exam time, they might go on a work trip, they might have to go to hospital, they might be moving house or even emigrating and getting internet running could be taking long, or their gaming machine could die and they don't have enough cash to get a new one within 45 days.
What is far less common is players not logging in for 90 days, which is three months. Very active players in a mmo seldom don't log in for a quarter of a year.
That doesn't make it right though. This decision making is certainly not done in the interest of fairness to the home owner. It is instead an incentive to be more active and continue to pay your sub, or be more active and pay your sub in the hopes you can snag a house someone lost.
I don't think Archeage is a fair comparison. That game is vastly different, it's very competitive, and owning land can give you massive financial gains. It's not just a fluff house where you can have fun decorating with a garden plot and stable on the side. Also, just about everything that you can do on a house can be done elsewhere if you don't own property. Don't own land but want to garden? Go plant in the open world. Want animals, go raise them in the open world. Want to craft? Go find a station in town or any one of the public houses people have set up. Want to rest your LP? Go sleep in a public bed. Make taxes? Go find a public property (which are everywhere).
Does gaming experience matter? If so I've been playing MMOs for just over 16 years, and this is the first MMO with limited housing that I have ever seen people complain so much about the grace period.
The optimist in me says that's a good thing, ain't it? People who play more get to have the good stuff while people who play less (or at the very least do not subscribe for very long periods of time), do not.
And this is only for personal housing, mind you. Long as you have a FC house you're golden, long as someone's stepping inside the house.
Crossbreeding plants and FC airships have made me pretty hefty bundles of gil... although to be fair, Archeage had a more robust economy than FFXIV. And for people who want a housing experience, there's still apartments. You can plant, use the chocobo stable, decorate... airships are a no but you'd need a FC for that anyway. And apartments are permanent. Hell I have a house and I still have an apartment on a character. They're pretty sweet.
Granted they still haven't increased the number of available apartments on the busy servers, so that's an issue.
Well considering the point I was making yes. I was just stating that in my ten years of playing mmos I have seen it to be very common for active players to be unable to log in for around 45 days due to very common events that happen in life.
As Skivvy already pointed out, housing in FF can grant a very significant financial advantage to players.
Fcs cannot get airships to fetch crafting materials only available through airship missions without a house. Fcs cannot craft housing skins to make money without a house. You can't do any cross planting without a house, which means you will have to fork out hundreds of thousands of gil for Thavnairian Onions (which most players need at some point), Jute for weavers or for the seeds/already grown minions.
I am one of the fortunate ones who has a house. I have made millions from gardening.
Housing used to its full capabilities is most certainly not only cosmetic. This is why players are demanding change.
Something I'd like to see is bigger apartments. Like a two-story flat or something, if you want to pay more for it. They're instanced, right? So it shouldn't be that big of a deal, though I admit I know nothing about coding and such. Like 1mil for an apartment that, inside, is like a small cottage. I'd love to see something like this added in.
Speaking on a personal level, my XIV housing needs are quite simple. I would love for them to simply expand apartments, and maybe even the inns, to include a "private garden" that is equal to the number of gardening plots you can purchase on a house. Introduce public stables around Eorzea and that would take care of the other concern of mine.
If they could find a way to make sure that all players could purchase an apartment, I think that would help appease a large number of players. Let people who just want function purchase an apartment while those who are wanting the "full housing experience" can purchase the more limited housing.
As an aside, keep in mind that at one point houses were permanent too. Who's to say that SE won't change their mind on apartments?
You may think its not fair that someone loses the house after 45 days of not logging in but think of all the active playing people who want a house and didn't get the chance to buy one (the reasons for that don't matter). Is it fair that buying a house still gets blocked by someone who doesn't even log in and/or doesn't pay a sub? I don't think so. And even if they would increase the time there would be people who complain that its not enough.
Should have a friend set as a co-owner and had them check in on the house while you were gone. That's how you get around that. Everyone gets an email about the demolishing. If you really cared you would have spent the little bit of money and logged in and let a friend handle it while you were away.
Personal housing was a mistake from the start.
Fc housing, according to the servers and space limit, were a safer choice. May be abolishing smal houses (they are ridicoulos small) and stick with medium and large.
For solo player a little bigger apartaments are better design choice. incorporating seed plant and workshop.