Off-topic: this thread is a fine example of Godwin's law of ffxiv healers. As the post count grows any debate tends to the question whether it's a healer's job to dps. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Taika
[Opinion] Why I'm disappointed by most changes to healers.
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07-26-2017, 04:47 AMFortune_Cookie
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07-26-2017, 05:23 AMSeraphynaRequired DPS per SSS for OS2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika
SAM: 4265.12
NIN: 4115.64
MNK: 4115.64
DRG: 3858.01
BLM: 4335.09
SMN: 4134.72
RDM: 4087.01
BRD: 3517.69
MCH: 3543.14
So yes, each DPS *should* be bringing at least 4k on average (some people apparently need to learn what averages are). At least. If they can't kill their SSS dummies, they shouldn't be in the raid run. This is a requirement for our group. You can't kill your dummy? You better start working on your rotations until you do. We have replacements and stand-ins for that.
It is the DPS' fault if they are not bringing at least the minimum required dps for their job. If you hit enrage, it's either due to too many deaths or dps is too low. Dps too low IS the DPS' fault if they are not hitting their requirements for fights. -
07-26-2017, 06:07 AMViolaCrossfire
Our O2S easy clear group tonight had
DRG:3895
SAM:3866
SMN:3756
RDM:3535
So far all of them under 4k
WAR:2389
PLD:2336
WHM:1148
SCH:824
Bringing total to 22.2k
AKA you don't need to all pull 4k dps to win -
07-26-2017, 06:13 AMGhishlainTake into account DPS on a training dummy is different from trying to optimize DPS in an actual fight where you have to deal with mechanics and have to deal with downtime due to invuln / phase changes. Also note that none of the numbers you've posted for SSS actually meet Taika's required 4,375DPS requirement to clear the content using their logic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphyna
Just to lax number's argument, assuming tanks are doing 2K DPS each as per Nanamo's earlier comment and that LB3 is worth about 500 DPS worth of damage, the 21K required DPS is brought down to 16,500 DPS or 4,125 DPS. The only DPS that can match that number according to SSS would be the SAM, BLM, and RDM and that's basically assuming they get 100% uptime which you won't have in any real fight.
I'll just push this train of thought one step further and assume tanks are contributing 2.25K DPS (based on SSS numbers of PLD = 2649.40; WAR = 2662.12; and DRK = 2512.64) for a total of 5K DPS when you combine both tanks and LB3 together. Remaining DPS requirement is 1,600 DPS or 4,000 DPS per person. Assuming even a 5% downtime due to mechanical challenges (and thus DPS operating at 95% training dummy power), the only DPS that can make that number is BLM based on SSS requirements.
I'm not going to say either side is right or wrong ATM because this particular juncture. This train of thought has got me thinking about how the Dev team does their balancing. It's pretty clear people are making the required checks so my thoughts are the natural synergies between jobs allow them to far exceed the SSS numbers, which would make sense when you start including Slashing resistance debuffs for both tanks, piercing resistances for BRD/MCH, synergies with Brotherhood on MNK (which from what I understand effectively allow MNK to have effective-party-DPS equal to SAM personal DPS), AST cards, Chain Stratagem, etc etc.. and overcome the solo orientated SSS numbers. Alternatively, once you start to include even 50% of the SSS numbers from healers (effectively adding at least another 2K DPS to the group) and the shared DPS numbers for O2S then becomes 3,500 DPS per damage dealer which is pretty much on point for the SSS numbers then.
TLDR: Adding nothing meaningful to the conversation chain, just putting down some theorycraft for other poster's to formulate an opinion / respond to while I contemplate my own thoughts behind S-E's balancing and their stance on "healer DPS isn't required". Heh. This train of thought has been pretty eyeopening. -
07-26-2017, 06:25 AMSebazy
SSS has about as much in common with a Savage encounter as I do with a Roegadyn =(
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07-26-2017, 06:30 AMNamoNanamo
If I could add something, it's quite easy to get the sss O2s requirement with low Ilvl (310), without food, pot and melded. So, with a party, and everything up + Astro+etc, you can +- meet my requirement. Even with downtime.
If I took ViolaCrossfire Number. The drg reach 3900 dps and he is the lowest close-combat dps atm. So Nin-monk-Sam should be 300-400 dps higher (the Drg score higher than the sss requirement so they could too). That would be 4200-4300. Maybe they get a super dragoon ? Or the other are slacking off. Maybe a bit of those two ? So, is the drg an exception ? A top 99% player ? why are his number so high compared to other ?
I would love more healing/tanking mechanic and less "I should bring 1200 dps cause my party dps is terrible". -
07-26-2017, 06:47 AMTaikaAre the DDs in your group delivering as high DPS numbers on their first raid kills than they are in a dumny fight? That's certainly impressive. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphyna
However, it's also very far from my point. Or maybe not: what I'm saying is, it's not fair to expect dummy DPS and top-5% performance from your DDs while at the same time expecting healers to not even use all of their abilities and only cover the (while we're talking about OS1 and OS2) very low healing requirements of the fight. -
07-26-2017, 08:13 AMSeraphynaIt's not about expecting healers or not to dps. It's about healers bearing the responsibility to carry the burden of picking up slack dps. I've had quite a few runs, here and there, recently where not only the healers, but the tanks as well are out dpsing the dps. That is ridiculous. Why are dps never held to any standards yet we're always responsible for everything. That is the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika
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07-26-2017, 08:23 AMSebazy
Because thanks to the carebear mentality of SE, holding DPS to account over anything than outright mechanical failure is generally TOS breaking and ban worthy =(
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07-26-2017, 08:34 AMTaikaAbsolutely no one is saying healers should be doing DPS to cover for the slacking DDs. All party members should carry their weight as evenly as possible in terms of performance. But a healer who refuses to DPS is not carrying their weight (just like a DD who isn't using their proper rotation isn't). And a healer like that has no right to demand a top-notch performance from the rest of their team members (just like a DD who isn't doing decent DPS has no right to demand better performance from their healers and so on). DPS simply is a part of standard level healer play in raiding just like following correct rotations is for DDs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphyna
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07-26-2017, 08:51 AMTaika
Can't edit since I'm posting from my phone, but just wanted to add that I wanted to comment on this issue because I find the rhetoric of "DDs alone are responsible for beating DPS check" very misleading and posing unrealistic expectations when read by people who have no clue about the realities of party DPS in raid fights.
What many people don't seem to understand is, leaving them to DDs alone, without any significant contribution from tanks on healers, really sets the performance standard for DDs to that top 10%ish, while it means healers and tanks are allowed to perform far below average. I would recommend instead that all party members would be asked for at least 50% contribution (in terms of logs numbers). -
07-26-2017, 09:09 AMNamoNanamoI'm not saying that Healer are forbidden to dps (And never said that). And I do not imply that when I say the DD alone need to do their job without healer help. I'm saying that, even if the healer are doing 0 damage, they can't be blame for failing the DPS check because SE didn't take Our dps for designing the content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika
And to be realistic, with two healer, you almost always got one " dps" and another "main heal". But will you blame the "main heal" for not suceed the dps check or the another one for not pulling enough dps ?
Yep, I agree with you. I'm only speaking about O1/2 S (not hard for healer / dd with easy mechanics). I got some exp post Library phase on O3s and I'll learn the fight before saying anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
And O4s is "too far" from pugs
At least, if you could provide some link that "we are not even supposed to be clearing any OS yet", I would be glad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika
Tl,dr :
healer are not required to DPS to beat savage.
Yes, you are inefficient if you aren't DPSing. -
07-26-2017, 09:18 AMSebazyWhilst SE claim not to include healer DPS in how they tune DPS checks, they do tend to tune the content to around the midpoint of that tier's gear, do keep this in mind as it's an equally important factor in the 'Yoshida said healer dps isn't required!' argument that always gets conveniently overlooked.Quote:
Originally Posted by NamoNanamo
At this stage we are still relatively under geared vs how SE envisioned the content, thus healer DPS becomes a factor. This is particularly evident once you hit O3S, beating enrage without healer DPS would need a very tidy run IMHO. -
07-26-2017, 09:28 AMTaikaYup, if we follow the developers balancing as our guideline, we're not even supposed to be clearing any OS yet, so that's hardly an argument for anything related to actually playing the content right now. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
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07-26-2017, 10:35 AMRivxkobeYou just don't understand math or the actual facts, you are just going to continue to blindly believe what you want. This is no longer an opinion, it is now a belief. Because the FACTS and MATH showed that Spear was garbage even in the best of situations. You are one of very few players who found it good. And I am going to go as far as to say you are literally the only person who thought it was ever necessary. Which is silly since getting it at all is based on RNG.Quote:
Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki
SE changed it because it was no good. You can argue it is because of a focus on DPS but you'd be wrong. -
07-26-2017, 10:51 AMNocturniaUzukiIf you actually read my thread (especially the other one I wrote, "The Case for the Spear"), I clearly point out how the game does not revolve around algorithms/math. What the math proves is that, in standard, mainstream content that play out as perfect scenarios (where nobody makes any mistakes), Spear is garbage. As you start moving away from perfection, Spear becomes less and less useless. Eventually, you reach a point where it changes from negative to positive. At that point, it starts to become more and more useful. So as a parallel line diagram, it'd look like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rivxkobe
Mistakes<-----------------------------------|------------------------------------>Perfection
Unconventional<----------------------------|----------------------------------->Mainstream
The divider in the middle can be considered where Spear changes from a negative to a positive.
The more towards the left side of the lines the situation is, the more useful Spear is.
The more towards the right side it is, the less useful Spear is.
Basically, math doesn't account for the situational. NPCs/AI are 100% predictable, so you can figure everything about them out via math. But human beings are inherently inconsistent. Trying to measure the value of a situational skill with math doesn't work, because its value changes in non-quantifiable ways based on an infinite number of possible situations that can occur due to human error. -
07-26-2017, 10:57 AMNocturniaUzuki
I'm noticing this is becoming a thread about hard DPS debates that no longer have anything to do with the healer changes. It'd be nice if that discussion happened elsewhere unless it is actually making clear reference to the healer changes.
In other news, I'm not able to comment much these days due to my classes. That probably makes the flamebaiters happy, at least ;). Sorry if I haven't responded to anyone that was actually having at least a half-decent argument with me though. -
07-26-2017, 11:11 AMNocturniaUzukiI don't know if somehow my writing is just prone to misunderstandings, or if people just aren't reading carefully enough. Maybe a combination of the two.Quote:
Originally Posted by miraidensetsu
If the healer makes a mistake, the fault is the healer's. If someone else makes a mistake, it's their fault for making the mistake, but it's still the healer's job to keep the party alive. Now, if the other players are making so many mistakes that it's impossible or extremely detrimental to the party for the healer to keep trying to fix them, then it may even be the healer's responsibility to the party to let that player die. But I have very rarely run into that situation outside of cases where someone disconnects mid-fight.
It's not just the healer that should play at the top of their game. Everyone should. But everyone makes mistakes, and everyone is at different skill levels. The healer being at the top of their game means that they should be dealing with as many allied mistakes as possible, following the outline I laid out above.
It's the healer's responsibility to manage MP, and that comes into play with decisions as well. However, many healers will sacrifice MP sustain, either direct (Lucid Dreaming, Lightspeed -25%, etc) or indirect (buffing allies, etc), in order to increase their own DPS. As an AST main, and largely the topic of my threads thus far, the Spear came into play here as well. The healer shouldn't be busy throwing out buffs and otherwise increasing DPS if it ultimately will cause allies to die, either because it gimps the healer's MP sustain (no Ewers, no Lucid/CO on reduced cooldowns), or because they don't have cooldowns available when needed.
If the DPS player is dying so much that it will literally be impossible to keep the party alive unless you abandon that player, then abandon them. But that shouldn't be happening until the healer is literally playing full MP sustain (no DPSing, all buffs reserved for self to increase MP regen, using Ethers, etc) and still doesn't have enough MP to keep the party alive.
On AST, I have virtually never encountered that issue. Or didn't, when Spear was still -20% cooldown. If I fished for Spear/Ewer constantly, I could keep my MP up through insane usage rates. On WHM, I haven't done that many heavy healing challenges. In general, I rated AST #1 in MP sustain due to Ewer/Spear fishing (though it did depend a bit on RNG). WHM was #2, and SCH was #3. -
07-26-2017, 07:05 PMTaikaHere:Quote:
Originally Posted by NamoNanamo
Source: https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/12...-Event-5-19%29Quote:
Yoshida: Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.
Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers.
So when you're saying "fights aren't balanced for healer DPS", remember they're not also balanced to be beaten without it at the item level available to players when they are released, and by Yoshi's own admission this gap has to be filled with healer DPS.
But this play style you're advocating means the healer is playing extremely ineffectively, not using or even throwing away all the resources they have to boost the party DPS (through not boosting their own healing with cooldowns so they can DPS more, and also not doing DPS themselves and not boosting their party members' DPS either, causing the fight to last longer). How much wasted DPS does this play style cause, and how many team members and how many times would the healer have to rescue (in a way that wouldn't be available for the healer if they hadn't been saving their resources / not DPSing) to make up for it in a situation when things would go wrong (when they often won't or at least shouldn't)?Quote:
Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki
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07-26-2017, 08:51 PMSebazyI really should bookmark that for these sorts of threads, thx beb <3Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika
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07-26-2017, 08:52 PMSebazyYou're neglecting to address the elephant in the room here.Quote:
Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki
Namely that the content you're tackling needs to either have an enrage timer generous enough to allow these kind of artificially prolonged encounters (Aka your RM 4 mans) or that you overgear it sufficiently to the point where it's utterly trivial for even a couple of good players to carry the run whilst you raise spam the rest.
In the case of the first example, that's even more niche than the old PI, and frankly, in the 1 or 2 situations where old PI was good, it was significantly more impactful than old Spear could ever be, but that usage case was far too narrow to be acceptable in the end.
In the case of the second example, I'll argue that you're putting lipstick on a pig here. If you've thrown away all your MP on raises and HPSing squishys through tank busters, you'll get a more immediate hit of MP pocketing an enhanced Ewer. If the content hits hard enough that you need healer or tank cooldowns back sooner then it's a pretty safe bet to assume that it's also got an enrage timer that you're not likely to be able to beat in this situation (Not to mention, most tanks will quickly settle into a routine of pacing out their CDs rather than mindlessly mashing them as they pop, there's a very good chance they will flat out ignore your spear to carry on with their trusted CD rotation).
Lastly as a side note, as you slide that mistakes slider further to get 'value' out of your spears, I'm inclined to suggest that by that stage, the people in that group quite simply don't deserve the clear. 'Rewarding' them with a clear for play that bad is doing both the community and those players a disservice, frankly it'd be better for all if they endured a couple of wipes in order to get their level of play up to a more acceptable standard. This is where I'd be looking at coaching rather than carrying TBH.
In my case, it's because whilst I dabbled in AST for Gordias, 50/50'd it for Midas and played it almost 100% of the time for Creator, as well as countless primal farms, kills for a friend, quality traps and comedy PFs, I never once saw a situation where I felt that spearing myself for a cooldown reduction offered more value than the alternatives on offer.Quote:
Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki
It also doesn't help that you come out with some choice clangers:
Using Lightspeed to increase your own DPS? The only way I can see this working is to pop Lightspeed and do your healing on the hoof allowing you to click it off and start DPSing the moment you're in position I guess? That'll gain a GCD, maybe 2 in some cases? That's a pretty minor gain for such an important cooldown and it'd make a lot more sense to use swiftcast. Please tell me that you realise that DPSing with Lightspeed up is a very significant DPS loss?Quote:
Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki
You'll get significantly more MP return from fishing for Ewers than you ever will from a Speared Lucid Dreaming. It's also critical to note that you'll get the Ewer MP almost immediately, whereas you won't see the benefits from that early Lucid until a minute and a half down the road. Spearing Draw is a false economy as you'll see better gains across the encounter by simplifying and streamlining your card process so that you can consistently draw and then use or dispose of a card either side of a GCD. Spearing CO is also a false economy IMHO, COing Lucid+Ewer will get you a full MP bar from pretty much nothing, whereas COing Lucid+spread balance and a tank regen is pretty much the holy grail of healer utility as things stand.Quote:
Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki
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07-26-2017, 09:10 PMRivxkobeI've read every post in this thread actually, and your posts prove nothing. Besides, the game revolves around math. Everything does. Its about efficiency. Some thing the old Spear hardly ever was was efficient. And by hardly I mean basically never.Quote:
Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki
Anyway The situations where Spear was useful fell into two categories: Content that has its difficulty artificially increased, and rare times where the entire team (besides the AST) were so well below even mediocre that the AST had to constantly save other's from their own mistakes (and still not wipe). Even in these situations Spear fails to still truly be useful because it is restricted behind RNG. If, some how, you play with a party that is so "bad" that you NEED the old Spear to clear it then two things need to happen: 1. They need to "git gud" and 2. The AST needs to find ways they can alter their playstyle so as to not have to rely on CD reduction that they may never pull.
I am a casual player, but I expect people to know their job and their role and I expect everyone in the party to be willing to play to their best ability and do mechanics.
Anyway, I meant to reply to something else you said in this thread that made me shake my head: You said earlier most forced Tank-swaps in this game can actually be avoided. This is... At this point I'm not even sure we are playing the same game. Some can, but most can not. Eventually there will have to be a Tank-Swap in content that calls for it.