Developers Poor Attitude to Summoner

Current balance issues aside.... I like the direction SMN is going. Frankly I would prefer if multiple summons worked like Demi Bahamut..... short term in combat summons.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

Well, some people didn't want it to be a DoT Job, there are some that liked it as a DoT job (who complained that we get only 2 DoTs now), then some that wanted it to focus more on pets, and then there's another side where they want it to be like classic FF summoning, big and flashy summons and attacks, almost like Demi-Bahamut (pretty much asking for a burst DPS).

They can't really please everybody if the community is so divided about Summoner's identity. I think Summoner now is a step in the right direction though, but executed poorly.

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Make it a DoT job with summons like Demi B.
There, you still got your dots, and we get better "Egi's" by summoning the Primals one at a time.
I still think the entire job needs to be redone. It is fine they are stepping in the right direction with that
but they need to look before Demi B and fix the other messed they got going. They completely ignored
the Egi's and gave us no new pet skills minus Demi B. There ARE still jarring problems SE!!

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

Well, some people didn't want it to be a DoT Job, there are some that liked it as a DoT job (who complained that we get only 2 DoTs now), then some that wanted it to focus more on pets, and then there's another side where they want it to be like classic FF summoning, big and flashy summons and attacks, almost like Demi-Bahamut (pretty much asking for a burst DPS).

They can't really please everybody if the community is so divided about Summoner's identity. I think Summoner now is a step in the right direction though, but executed poorly.

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They tried though. Look at SMN pre 4.0:
Player solely used Garuda for Contagion; which extended DoTs. This let player focus less on DoT management and opened the window to spam ruin more. SE's Response: Remove one DoT and extend duration to 30s each and add a proc ruin spell; less DoT management and more ruin spam.
Players wanted a big bad primal pet: SE adds DB and the community is upset because it's too big and blocks view.
Players wanted Egi's to be more like other FF and do more like buff/debuff: SE add buffs and debuff in which the community responds with anger because Buff/Debuff meant lower dps numbers.

I'm sorry but the community got exactly what they asked for and are pissed because of it.

SMN is by far not such a big mess like some in here try to draw it. I see only three main Problems, which I think, should be adresses with 4.1

1) SMN needs a Little DPS Gain (best served with a decrease of Aetherflow cooldown, that would give the class also a more fluid phase-rotation).

2) Make Aetherpact a grp-wide buff. or at least let us controll it better who gets the buff. This is by far the worst decision SE made in this whole Addon. What Comes in mind to create a skill that useless? on such a high lvl?

3) And please kill that Tri-Bind skill and give us back Sustain! I haven't seen anybody using Tri-Bind in 4 years. And there SE came and told us, that gameplay Change was to remove unnecessary skills...and they took us Sustain???

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

They tried though. Look at SMN pre 4.0:
Player solely used Garuda for Contagion; which extended DoTs. This let player focus less on DoT management and opened the window to spam ruin more. SE's Response: Remove one DoT and extend duration to 30s each and add a proc ruin spell; less DoT management and more ruin spam.
Players wanted a big bad primal pet: SE adds DB and the community is upset because it's too big and blocks view.
Players wanted Egi's to be more like other FF and do more like buff/debuff: SE add buffs and debuff in which the community responds with anger because Buff/Debuff meant lower dps numbers.

I'm sorry but the community got exactly what they asked for and are pissed because of it.

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I'm upset because I thought HW SMN was near perfect, and they decided to go and change it up enough that it no longer feels fun to play, with core mechanical problems that aren't going to be solved until next expansion at the very least.

Wouldn't it have been better to replace our dot spells with egi based ones where we command them to do it for us through our regular hot bar, thus giving us more incentive to pay attention to our egi, along with keeping sustain in the game?

That and replacing/adding other skills where we could summon a split second egi to perform a single or mulitple set of skills like many people have suggested before. Wouldn't that have made summoner feel more like what it's name implies?

I've only started getting into summoner today, so I still don't know all the details of what exactly is wrong with the class besides dimished power and missing sustain, so please don't bite my head off if my question/example is missing something or no good.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Snip.

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Game developers are not paid to be disgruntled genies.

The SMN was far and away unlike other summoners in games, but at least it did its trinity role to satisfaction, when it doesn't even do that, the veneer comes off entirely and you just have a busted class. Why is Ruin and DoTs such integral spells for the class? Why is summoning and pet management getting shafted? When it has such a weak identity to begin with, and poor performance added on, it just isn't Summoner anymore.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Why is Ruin and DoTs such integral spells for the class?

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To be fair, SMNs in non-job system FFs have a second school of magic to fall back on. Rydia had black magic. Eiko, Garnet and Yuna had white magic. The latter wouldn't fly unless you want to make the job a semi hybrid like RDM is.

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Why is summoning and pet management getting shafted?

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This was failure on part of the devs. They backed out of giving SMN Leviathan-egi and Ramuh-egi (despite showing us previews of those egi) under the excuse of overlap (even though that's bullocks seeing that there were avenues of utility available if we use the WoW warlock as a blueprint, which the devs had already used when building the ARR SMN).

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Here's something random I came up with for SMN:

Carby + Primal skills + Bahamut: Basically, keep Carby as the permanent pet. Change all Aetherflow skills to become primal-related abilities. Energy Drain becomes Gyre Spume (Leviathan), dealing damage for a set duration and restoring some MP. Shadow Flare becomes Razed Earth (Titan). Bane becomes Shock Strike (Ramuh). Fester becomes Flaming Crush (Ifrit). Add a frontal-cone stun called Slipstream (Garuda). Using primal abilities grants you Aethertrail Attunement, which instead of being units like now, would be a bar that fills up.

You get a second tier of primals that can be temp-summoned, consuming a notable chunk of the bar. This is where you'd have Demi-Ravana (reduces target's resistance to damage), Demi-Bismarck (lingering AoE damage), and Demi-Laskhmi (AoE heal or damage shield/Vril).

You can also summon Demi-Bahamut with a full bar.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Here's something random I came up with for SMN:

Carby + Primal skills + Bahamut: Basically, keep Carby as the permanent pet. Change all Aetherflow skills to become primal-related abilities.

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Yes please. Carbuncle as your Summoner-buddy is the dream. I also wanted him to provide a manaward/wall effect so we could have one defensive buff in the flavor of good ol' Ruby Light's Reflect. Something to give him his old flavor.

One would think they learned their mistakes on FFXI summoner, as an once main SMN on XI, I know the feel of devs not giving your job the attention it deserves.

FFXI SMN was a stressfull job with pikes in usefulness every ONE minute, and a MP management hell that made you look for even 1 more mp refresh per tick like it was water in the dessert.
Devs eventually gave you a skill to up the DD of summons, at the expense of more MP, or a party buff at the expense of damage (oh the memories of being the refresh diabolos balloon holder for the BLM party at Dynamis, seeing how everyone but you have fun)



They promised more avatars, everyone hyped, but then they turned out to be a 2hr skill... (later reduced to 1h but still) where they just appear, do their thing and went away, it was... not what SMNs expected when they promissed us more avatars (the ones we had followed you like egis), I stoped playing before the last expansion so I dunno if they (after more then 8 years) fixed the job.

I havent played SMN 3.0 or 4.0 but seeing the complains I think your SMN has an identity crisis, and devs must be afraid to cut some stuff and focus on other without turning SMN into a copy of other jobs. They should have focused on the pets, ditch basically everythin else and making SMN skills to aid the pets. Make it the master of area control and ranged positionals, skills to control pet movement more easily (instant teleport to one side, instant teleport to marker, AoE pet shields etc) make a SMN devoted to said Summons, and give the player survivability skills cuz they are gonna keep running, shorter cast times s it will be only commands to the pet and a sacrifice pet mechanic to instant raise and give a buff to the person raised (depending on the pet), or sacrifice pet to give group wide buffs so yu can time it when your pet is almost dying or something.

I get increasingly frustrated at the absolute refusal to divorce the job from things like DoTs, Aetherflow, and Ruin spam, wgich seem far more suited to "combat strategist SCH" than "primal channeling SMN". I don't care whether they keep the Egis and put more focus on using and empowering them, or go the Trance/Demi route where we get big impressive summons and burst abilities on cooldowns, I just want to stop using poisons and a level 1 filler ability as my primary sources of damage on a level 70 "summon"er.

There is a lot of talk about how SMN isn't like the iterations of the job that has been in other games and I think that the version of SMN that was implemented in FFXIV was its own representation that definitely worked well.

Not that I am knowledged beyond the friends I have on my server who mained the job, but since this rework, many SMNs I know have all abandoned the job or are no longer having fun with it. I feel the devs should have stuck with the pre-4.0 version and added the Bahamut piece on top (even though he needs adjustments) and it would be all good. Instead, the job has been amended, I feel, to attempt to assuage those who felt it wasn't like what they remember before.

Who is to say of those who were saying such things were even playing the job to begin with. But now it's been changed and the players that were maining or playing it regularly don't even enjoy it anymore and are jumping ship in droves.

I don't feel that SMN was bad at all that it needed such a drastic divorce from what it was. Just as RDM had to be reimagined to fit in the world of FFXIV, SMN could have been left to do the same.

Sure, there are people who don't think it's so bad currently, but let us wait until the census to see if that opinion holds that sort of water... which I wager it will reflect the outcry we are having right now.

At this point, though, I don't see the devs going back on these changes despite the many people who don't agree with it.

So Naysay as it sounds ... SMN may be a wash until next expac

(Couldn't edit post from mobile btw)

Honestly I think they should just get rid of Egis and have them play more like traditional Summoners. As in dps normally and build up a gauge to be able to summon creatures that either do an action or stay out for a bit (30 sec to a minute) and be able to augment your abilities.
I honestly hate the way the egis work since when I’m trying to use abilities I have to spam that ability in order to get it to go off. As for the Physick working with Int thing I don’t really care if they do that.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

They tried though. Look at SMN pre 4.0:
Player solely used Garuda for Contagion; which extended DoTs. This let player focus less on DoT management and opened the window to spam ruin more. SE's Response: Remove one DoT and extend duration to 30s each and add a proc ruin spell; less DoT management and more ruin spam.
Players wanted a big bad primal pet: SE adds DB and the community is upset because it's too big and blocks view.
Players wanted Egi's to be more like other FF and do more like buff/debuff: SE add buffs and debuff in which the community responds with anger because Buff/Debuff meant lower dps numbers.

I'm sorry but the community got exactly what they asked for and are pissed because of it.

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- Nobody asked for more Ruin and less DoT management. That was SE's idea to simplify the job.

- I can't speak to the rationale for the hugely, big Bahamut as I've never seen those requests. I can say being around for about 2 years I don't recall seeing a request for bigger egi's but I also wasn't historically a big reader of the forums.

- There aren't any complaints about getting the Devotion buff. It is the half assed implementation based on one target's proximity to our pet. It is obvious someone decided they needed something for utility as an afterthought.

The same goes for Sustain. SE said they figured Summoners could move their egi's out of harms way and nobody uses it anyway so who needs it. Let's not think about how it affects Titan or Ilfrit who by definition are meant to be in the thick of it. Regular pet movement might be workable if all of the Summoner DPS was through the egi. However 75% comes from the Summoner themselves. This means every manual movement of the egi takes away from overall DPS. Add in the other changes that gimp the Summoner and you have a broken class that didn't need be broken.

While it might not be a traditional FF Summoner the HW version was working pretty smoothly. If SE didn't like that they should have come out a said we are going to work on changing the Summoner toward its more traditional interpretation and fully designed the new job. If they didn't have the resources to do it properly for SB then they should not have made major architectural changes to the job and done the minimum required to build up to level 70. In the end they would have had more satisfied customers and fewer complaints.

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Originally Posted by Claviusnex

- Nobody asked for more Ruin and less DoT management. That was SE's idea to simplify the job.

- I can't speak to the rationale for the hugely, big Bahamut as I've never seen those requests. I can say being around for about 2 years I don't recall seeing a request for bigger egi's but I also wasn't historically a big reader of the forums.

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Actually, yeah, these are both common complaints, or at least were years ago. For a long, long time, there was just about always a thread on the front page complaining about how tiny (and dumb-looking) the Egis were. Folks wanted to have the lumbering monstrosities they were used to from FFXI. As for DoTs, there were frequent criticisms that SMN were just WoW Warlocks with the serial numbers filed off and a pet tacked on, and that the resulting abomination was hardly a TRUE(tm) Final Fantasy Summoner at all.

I, personally, didn't mind SMN's new incarnation. The DoT focus, while new to Summoners, I took as just another quirk of this incarnation, like how Rydia used black magic or Yuna white. I personally found the abstract design of the egis to be neat (it's what you get when you try to summon a Primal using a geometry textbook!) and having played FFXI myself I knew how annoying and obstructive the giant summons could be (summoning Titan to block folks' view was an actual griefing tactic during NM farming). Nevertheless, I could certainly see why folks were disappointed, even if I wasn't, myself.

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The same goes for Sustain. SE said they figured Summoners could move their egi's out of harms way and nobody uses it anyway so who needs it. Let's not think about how it affects Titan or Ilfrit who by definition are meant to be in the thick of it. Regular pet movement might be workable if all of the Summoner DPS was through the egi. However 75% comes from the Summoner themselves. This means every manual movement of the egi takes away from overall DPS. Add in the other changes that gimp the Summoner and you have a broken class that didn't need be broken.

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It doesn't help at all that the Place command is kinda clunky. But yeah, given that two out of three egis are intended to remain in close quarters - and Titan in particular is DESIGNED to be taking near constant damage - SE's explanation for removing Sustain is kind of ludicrous. I'll admit that I didn't use it often myself in Heavensward - but this is because I had no need for Titan at all (overworld stuff was all too weak to require a tank Egi, and instanced stuff I usually used Garuda who rarely took damage), but it was still good to have.

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While it might not be a traditional FF Summoner the HW version was working pretty smoothly. If SE didn't like that they should have come out a said we are going to work on changing the Summoner toward its more traditional interpretation and fully designed the new job. If they didn't have the resources to do it properly for SB then they should not have made major architectural changes to the job and done the minimum required to build up to level 70. In the end they would have had more satisfied customers and fewer complaints.

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What I object to most is the fact that SE seems to be treating these criticisms like, "Eh, there are always complainers." While this bemused headshaking is justified for some of the noise made by the fanbase (such as the never-ending back-and-forth as to how difficult the Raids should be), I'm not sure the disappointment with Summoner is so clear-cut. If there's some super-secret way to play SMN that makes it competitive with RDM, or even with BLM, I don't think players have discovered it yet.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

What I object to most is the fact that SE seems to be treating these criticisms like, "Eh, there are always complainers." While this bemused headshaking is justified for some of the noise made by the fanbase (such as the never-ending back-and-forth as to how difficult the Raids should be), I'm not sure the disappointment with Summoner is so clear-cut. If there's some super-secret way to play SMN that makes it competitive with RDM, or even with BLM, I don't think players have discovered it yet.

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It's not just SE. Half the posts in this thread are people with no clue about SMN coming in and dismissing any arguments about the job's current state. A lot of people seem to have convinced themselves that SMNs have no legitimate reason to complain about anything because they've been forced to fight tooth and nail to get any attention from the devs since 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Claviusnex

- Nobody asked for more Ruin and less DoT management. That was SE's idea to simplify the job

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Okay, then explain to the community why everyone in 3.0 used Garuda over Ifrit? Their DPS was the same so what made Garuda more prized?

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Originally Posted by Claviusnex

- I can't speak to the rationale for the hugely, big Bahamut as I've never seen those requests. I can say being around for about 2 years I don't recall seeing a request for bigger egi's but I also wasn't historically a big reader of the forums.

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You must not have been reading the DPS boards then because it's been a complaint since SMN came out.

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Originally Posted by Claviusnex

- There aren't any complaints about getting the Devotion buff. It is the half assed implementation based on one target's proximity to our pet. It is obvious someone decided they needed something for utility as an afterthought.

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There are but it's drowned out by complaints about SMN damage and design. Actually feedback is being lost in the crowd.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

It's not just SE. Half the posts in this thread are people with no clue about SMN coming in and dismissing any arguments about the job's current state. A lot of people seem to have convinced themselves that SMNs have no legitimate reason to complain about anything because they've been forced to fight tooth and nail to get any attention from the devs since 2.0.

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Oh there is definitely reason for legit complaints, as long as legitimate. Right now based on parser and flogs SMN is the lost dps caster but doesn't account for buffs/debuffs as smn damage and is ignored by those sources. People are using Garuda because the magic debuff gives them a visible damage increase, it's something tangible were as things like Radiant Shields and Devotion make it harder to tell if the damage decrease is worth the buffs.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Okay, then explain to the community why everyone in 3.0 used Garuda over Ifrit? Their DPS was the same so what made Garuda more prized?

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how did Ifrit match a Raging Strikes + Dreadwyrm Trance + Tri-disaster Bane on trash pulls?

and you can prefer less DoTs and less Ruin. would much rather see lower potencies and more frequent Aetherflow stacks.

it's also possible to have more detailed egis without them being bigger.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Okay, then explain to the community why everyone in 3.0 used Garuda over Ifrit? Their DPS was the same so what made Garuda more prized?

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Contagion extended RS DWT dots = DPS increase. Obviously. Also no, ifrit has more DPS actually. I used mostly ifrit through whole 3.2+ btw lol. And was doing fine and usually better than any other smn with garuda.
Are you really arguing that community finding a certain way to play a job SE designed = community feedback about wanting more ruin and less DoTs? That's insane... People just did what gave them most DPS, that's all....

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

You must not have been reading the DPS boards then because it's been a complaint since SMN came out.

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It is no excuse for poor implementation of bahamut. Option to change size should've been there on release. I don't see how you can blame summoners for that. Wanting bigger\better looking summons doesn't mean people wanted unreasonable things. Actually it's very reasonable. On the other hand poor implementation and proceeding handling of that WAS unreasonable. Poor communication and whatnot

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

There are but it's drowned out by complaints about SMN damage and design. Actually feedback is being lost in the crowd.

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You can't prove that anything is being lost in the crowd. And complains about SMN 4.0 design and damage are just as viable as anything else. When "complains about complains" are not viable at all.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Oh there is definitely reason for legit complaints, as long as legitimate. Right now based on parser and flogs SMN is the lost dps caster but doesn't account for buffs/debuffs as smn damage and is ignored by those sources. People are using Garuda because the magic debuff gives them a visible damage increase, it's something tangible were as things like Radiant Shields and Devotion make it harder to tell if the damage decrease is worth the buffs.

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What? Many people who complain do account buffs\debuffs. And they actually account much more - difficulty of the job, existence of other easier jobs that bring both more utility and DPS(u know the one) etc.
I used ifrit in physical party compositions at first but then stopped cause it was pretty pointless. Average player probably won't even notice difference between garuda and ifrit at all...
PS
By the way... Now we're skipping 1st DWT to maximize our DPS through using aetherflow stacks with bahamut... what FEEDBACK does it send to SE? That they should delete DWT? It's a DPS loss after all. Or mb that they should delete summoners altogether? lol
Community decided that they don't need DWT boyz...

I do have to wonder, why is Summon Bahamut on a 30 second recast? When you think about, is there truly a scenario that would enable you to somehow Summon bahamut in less that a minute after just summoning it? Though the reason I do bring this up is I wonder if the following would serve to make dying less painful. While it may have to alter the dmg potency of Summon bahamut, I do think it might work.

Basically, you put "Summon Bahamut" on a 2 min recast, However, rather than needing to use "Dreadwyrm Trance" twice to gain access to it, you instead just need to use 3 Aethertrail Attunement to Summon Bahamut. So Bahamut works as normal, cept now it's a 2 min recast, it's something you can open with however whenever you do go into "Dreadwyrm Trance" it reduces the recast of Summon Bahamut by 30 seconds. So there would be opportunity to summon it sooner if SMN builds up their charges quicker. Though I'll be honest and say the recast reduction may have no difference unless it was over one minute.


TLDR. Summon Bahamut uses the 3 stacks of Aethertrail Attunement rather than 2 "Dreadwyrm Trances". Dreadwyrm Trance serves as a way to reduce the recast of Summon Bahamut(2 min recast). Idea is dying becomes less punishing since you don't lose the built up Dreadwyrm Trances now that Summon Bahamut is tied to Aethertrail Attunement rather than the trances.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Oh there is definitely reason for legit complaints, as long as legitimate. Right now based on parser and flogs SMN is the lost dps caster but doesn't account for buffs/debuffs as smn damage and is ignored by those sources. People are using Garuda because the magic debuff gives them a visible damage increase, it's something tangible were as things like Radiant Shields and Devotion make it harder to tell if the damage decrease is worth the buffs.

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And you get to decide what is and isn't a legitimate complaint I take it?

Sorry but no, this is wrong. People have already calculated the damage that Radiant Shield and Devotion put out. For one it's already been ascertained that Devotion is usually a waste of a GCD for your pet as they skip an auto-attack to use it and the damage they lose from that is often more than the damage a DPS would gain from that 5% increase, especially given how little control we have over who gets the buff. Radiant Shield is only worthwhile in situations with lots of adds and a physical heavy group composition. That pretty much means it's only useful for trash pulls which are largely irrelevant to balance discussion.

You're trying to pretend that SMN isn't as bad as it seems. I really don't understand why.

I'm all for more black magic love as well, and as said many times before this all seems more solvable if SCH & SMN aren't leveled up as one. It still seems strange to begin with; you get a free healer or a free dps by just leveling one or the other. You might even say no wonder these aren't full blown healer nor dps right now? :confused:

Boy, what I wouldn't give for a community manager to say "We hear you guys" right now.

There's some great feedback in here.

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Originally Posted by eschaton

I'm all for more black magic love as well, and as said many times before this all seems more solvable if SCH & SMN aren't leveled up as one. It still seems strange to begin with; you get a free healer or a free dps by just leveling one or the other. You might say no wonder these aren't full blown healer nor dps right now? :confused:

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Umm no... SCH is a full blown healer. SCHs were actually the best healers in 3.0. That's why SE kinda overnerfed them in 4.0. Which was addressed in 4.05. But SMN was in a pretty good spot in 3.0 too - best aoe dps, pretty big ST dps rivaling BLMs and even MNKs sometimes. And it's painfully obvious that SMN was overnerfed too. I wrote several times already about how smn nerfs are there cause of bahamut and it "should" compensate them, but it does not. And it was not addressed in a slightest... or even acknowledged...

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Originally Posted by Airget

recast question

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Demi bahamut is summonable after successfully exiting dwt twice. I believe deathflare now has something like a 12 second cd. after using the first 2 dwt you can wait to get flow again and attain 3 attunement without using dwt. summon Demi bahamut and do that. after he ends you can now immediately dwt again and if you felt like it instant deathflare. and oh what's this my flow is off cd. use that spam painflare e drain and the dot nuke thing I forgot the name of atm and oh look I have full attunement why not just dwt again deathflare again and bahamut again oh shit it's still on CD guess I gotta wait 20 more seconds and not have what is essentially 6 akh mornes in 30 seconds

Until they change the smn back to how it was in heavensward I will be playing bard. Bahamut is just a waste you get 2 attacks out of it and if have titan out it looses all agro and has to start over.

it's sad to say , but

until we get sustain back i have more fun leveling my red mage .....with the rdm dual self-heal and the lack of sustain on smn , rdm makes a better class for hunts/ solo play

and i was smn since the launch of the game :(

square has to understand that not all of us play non stop in groups , heck i often dont even a single dungeon for the weekly marks ( hunts , potd , diadem are more than enough for marks )

jeez .......in pvp a SUMMONER cant even SUMMON with their changes ..... ( and a nin cant stealth without a combo first..... woohoo )

I kinda wish that SMN would just get disconnected from Arcanist and Scholar entirely. Rework it completely and away from being a pet class DPS. Instead build around expanding the demi-bahamut system to include the other primals. Could even work it so that you cast primal themed spells (I dunno, summon ifrit's claw to launch a fireball, summon Garuda's wings to do a tornado pbAoE, summon Titan's fist to do a line AoE, etc) to build up aetherial "charge" with that primal so that you can summon its Demi version to cast their more iconic abilities and then they disappear.

That in my mind would be cooler then the egis we have now (that I just see people glam to carbuncles anyways).

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

I kinda wish that SMN would just get disconnected from Arcanist and Scholar entirely. Rework it completely and away from being a pet class DPS. Instead build around expanding the demi-bahamut system to include the other primals. Could even work it so that you cast primal themed spells (I dunno, summon ifrit's claw to launch a fireball, summon Garuda's wings to do a tornado pbAoE, summon Titan's fist to do a line AoE, etc) to build up aetherial "charge" with that primal so that you can summon its Demi version to cast their more iconic abilities and then they disappear.

That in my mind would be cooler then the egis we have now (that I just see people glam to carbuncles anyways).

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If I still thought we were getting a bunch of egis down the road I would disagree.

If the only way I might see full size iconic summons is one and done summons. Sign me up.

Chicken nuggets don't cut it for me, and apparently big perpetual summons bother other players.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

Rework it completely and away from being a pet class DPS.

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Agreed, especially when the pet response right now is a joke.
Although Egis are still here to stay. We'll never really see an overhaul to SMN or any job honestly. People can just hope they build around (and fix) the Demi summon gimmick more if they want the feel of a True Summoner™.