Please nerf RDM!

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Originally Posted by Nezia

Btw, I just agreed that RDM was in need of a minor nerf, but then I found out about the mana glitch, and... Who knows how flawed logs are thanks to that?

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If you could, what is the mana glitch?

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

If you could, what is the mana glitch?

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I'm curious as well. I haven't noticed any glitches regarding my mana, I just am special and like to fit two verfinishers into one embolden through clever use of swiftcast and accel to break free of the 100/100 penalty.

Its a bug that allows to do the enhanced melee combo at a certain points of the mana bar without having to be 80/80 allowing a rdm to exploit that to use the enhanced melee combo+ finisher more often than it should be, The top ff logs of rdm are most probably upped more than they should due to that

Hm...I guess I'd have to see it happen to understand. Though if this is frequent and rampant, I can see it wreaking some havoc on the logs.

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Its a bug that allows to do the enhanced melee combo at a certain points of the mana bar without having to be 80/80 allowing a rdm to exploit that to use the enhanced melee combo+ finisher more often than it should be, The top ff logs of rdm are most probably upped more than they should due to that

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I havent seen this work at all is there a specific black/white ration on the gauge that this happens? oh pure 80/80 bit they dont gain the effect of free verstone.verfire afterwards right?

So, I believe the Live Letter just confirmed no changes to RDM, which is absolute bs IMO

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Hm...I guess I'd have to see it happen to understand. Though if this is frequent and rampant, I can see it wreaking some havoc on the logs.

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Essentially, the "bug" is that being unbalanced (i.e. |BM-WM|>30) doesn't just halve mana gain it also halves the mana costs of RDM's enchanted weaponskills for whichever of 2 kinds of mana is lower. This allows for discounted melee chains and therefore more melee chains overall over the course of a fight.

I don't know where people came out on the value of seeking to exploit this. I can see that you might want to do it in the opener, but not sure about thereafter.

If you want to have a look at some top parses, the RDM needs to hit some fairly specific mana values to exploit the bug. Off the top of my head, 65-69/96-100 for a discounted Enchanted Riposte and 52-54/98-100 for a discount on Enchanted Zwerchhau as well.

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Originally Posted by Core1019

So, I believe the Live Letter just confirmed no changes to RDM, which is absolute bs IMO

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Nerfing Vercure because of blms and SMNs crying that Rdm can't have potent utility and high dps. Well you're getting your wish.

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Originally Posted by Core1019

So, I believe the Live Letter just confirmed no changes to RDM, which is absolute bs IMO

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Same with SAM. And that's how it should be really.

Just the other classes should be brought up to par with these 2. Which is what they seem to be trying to do.

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Originally Posted by Core1019

So, I believe the Live Letter just confirmed no changes to RDM, which is absolute bs IMO

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Also:

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A5. One of the main concepts of FFXIV is that “when playing a job, you experience the uniqueness of that job.”
Due to this, there is a difference in difficulty between the jobs, and it used to be that higher difficulty meant more DPS. We will be scaling down this factor.

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...13#post4303113

TL;DR: Don't bother playing more difficult jobs. You don't get rewarded with higher performance, you only get more opportunities to mess up and perform worse as a result.

I already showed the glitch in another thread but here it is again:

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Originally Posted by Kling-Klang

This is how you get top fflogs and out dps blm:
http://i.imgur.com/3TUh4Jj.jpg
You can get into your melee combo much faster like this. You shit out dps.
Imbalance numbers with which you can do this are
52, 53, 54
if you cant do it this early you do it with
65, 66, 67, 68, 69

Japanese dps forum knows about it already, so I assume it will get fixed before omega savage. Most here dont seem to know about it so they assume rdm is OP when the logs and parsers of top rdm are due to this.

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Since you can get into melee(+ your finisher) earlier, you can get way more dps out in a 8+min fight than you usually should be able to. With this it is possible to compete with a BLM dps wise.
It is really easy to get the 52-54 value in an opener, after that you need some practice but the ones who put in the work to learn this can do it in a fight rather consistently.

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Originally Posted by Kling-Klang

Since you can get into melee(+ your finisher) earlier, you can get way more dps out in a 8+min fight than you usually should be able to. With this it is possible to compete with a BLM dps wise.
It is really easy to get the 52-54 value in an opener, after that you need some practice but the ones who put in the work to learn this can do it in a fight rather consistently.

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That's...a massive oversight. Like, ridiculously big. I'm guessing gauge consumption is affected by the decreases in acquisition when mana is imbalanced. Talk about a mess up. And agree, this'll likely be fixed with patch 4.05. I don't see how they could let RDM enter savage raids with that around.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Also:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...13#post4303113

TL;DR: Don't bother playing more difficult jobs. You don't get rewarded with higher performance, you only get more opportunities to mess up and perform worse as a result.

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Aye, pretty disheartening to read that kind of statement. Can always hope that it's pure spin...

Q5. It was explained that in Patch 4.0 the focus was to reduce the large DPS disparity, but certain jobs feel more reliant on player skill than others. Are certain jobs intended to maintain that difference?

A5. One of the main concepts of FFXIV is that “when playing a job, you experience the uniqueness of that job.”
Due to this, there is a difference in difficulty between the jobs, and it used to be that higher difficulty meant more DPS. We will be scaling down this fact


Good logic to me, Glad the devs feel like this.

Easier and harder should not matter on how well a class does. It is about play style. Some people enjoy tougher classes. Some people don't. Glad the Devs at least understand this common sense.

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Q5. It was explained that in Patch 4.0 the focus was to reduce the large DPS disparity, but certain jobs feel more reliant on player skill than others. Are certain jobs intended to maintain that difference?

A5. One of the main concepts of FFXIV is that “when playing a job, you experience the uniqueness of that job.”
Due to this, there is a difference in difficulty between the jobs, and it used to be that higher difficulty meant more DPS. We will be scaling down this factor.

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Sounds like RDM isn't getting nerfed because it's easy to play.

Jobs should never be balanced around difficulty because difficulty is relative. Half the time, the devs have completely different views on what's difficult and players really find a consensus on it.

Moreover, playing a harder Job can be fun and mastering it is reason enough to play. I honestly never understood caring about if the dps next to me was getting more damage with easier rotation. That just means to get better. But no Job should have a superior kit just because it's harder to pull off.

They may not have the balance down yet for SB, but it should be based on personal dps vs rdps (defensive utility a little but that's mostly flavour).


As much as I am into the dps competition (which I am), we're mostly talking about PVE here and as such it's a cooperative game. I think that gets lost a lot, but I for one am happy that there are Jobs that some can pick up, play effectively and contribute when they wouldn't have been able to otherwise on a different Job.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Jobs should never be balanced around difficulty because difficulty is relative. Half the time, the devs have completely different views on what's difficult and players really find a consensus on it.

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Memories of the devs disagreeing vehemently with the playerbase on how difficult MCH was at 3.0 come to mind lol. The origin of XIV's "Git gud" meme.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Also:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...13#post4303113

TL;DR: Don't bother playing more difficult jobs. You don't get rewarded with higher performance, you only get more opportunities to mess up and perform worse as a result.

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Absolutely disgusting.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Also:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...13#post4303113

TL;DR: Don't bother playing more difficult jobs. You don't get rewarded with higher performance, you only get more opportunities to mess up and perform worse as a result.

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I actually started laughing.

It's a good thing I started playing Red Mage after all.

Time to keep Dragoon in the trash too.

Lol once again the players can play NIN better than the Devs (it's so fucking easy how do you mess this up)

Leave RDM alone. If a rdm HAS to heal/raise you have a bad healer or tank who can't mitigate properly, or an idiot standin in telegraphed mechanics resulting in a dps loss for rdm. Lower its dps and its a even nigger loss. I'd rather see rdm lose this utility than lose its damage. It also has no real mp regeneration.

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Originally Posted by Nite83

Leave RDM alone. If a rdm HAS to heal/raise you have a bad healer or tank who can't mitigate properly, or an idiot standin in telegraphed mechanics resulting in a dps loss for rdm. Lower its dps and its a even nigger loss. I'd rather see rdm lose this utility than lose its damage. It also has no real mp regeneration.

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Y-you might wanna proofread your comment.

It's not about the fact that using heals and raise will cause it to lose DPS so its balanced, it's the fact that it CAN save parties which is an important part of its identity yes, but it can't also has a reasonably good offensive utility and be 2nd strongest dps with such a low skill floor and ceiling. Id rather they took away the damage part, because essentially its low risk high reward which is bad design. Low risk medium reward is fine.

Offensive utility with Embolden is worth around 0.75% raid damage increase including tank dps, hardly gamebreaking.

And rdm are in fact low risk medium reward already. both blm and smn outdps the rdm as long as mechanics let them. Is like asking that blm/smn should outdps rdm on heavy movement fights which are rdm forte, while being literally gods on caster static ones. Right now simply the fights are on rdm favor nothing else, is not like every fight coming is gonna be a game of dance dance revolution to every job. Garuda ex for example heavily favored ranged while giving the middle finger to melee

Blm are getting a few buffs anyways, so the point, unless they have a surprise on store, is already set in stone at least until 4.1 with omega savage info to make further adjustements

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

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0.75 isn't game breaking, but it is still reasonably good. That's more than BLM, SMN, MNK and SMN bring while only being weaker than SAM (and MNK at the highest levels).

The issue is, the dummy difference between BLM, SMN and RDM is so insignificant that RDM will pull away in pretty much any fight where you have to move a few times. RDM is also much less strict in every fight. Lower skill floor means the average player will be doing much better with RDM and lower skill ceiling where someone who is moderately good can get the most out of the class and do comparable dps to people who have absolutely mastered others.


Yeah they are buffing BLM (and I hope to god SMN too) but that won't fix that RDM is the only class that synergises with the physical classes which outnumber the casters 2/1. You are much more likely to have 3 physical DPS (and the tanks) than 3 casters (and tanks will be producing more damage than the healers). Couple that with the amount of damage it does relatively easily and the fact it can save runs in ways other dps can't and you have a textbook imbalance. It most certainly is Low risk High reward. If you couple RDM's damage and embolden-

Actually let me show you. These numbers are the 75th percentile for Lakshimi and Susano from about 50,000 parses:

SAM = 3604
RDM = 3371
NIN = 3327
DRG = 3141
SMN = 3122

On a regular 75th percentile susano run rDPS (about 18,750):

RDM + Embolden = 3511
NIN + Trick = 3645(!)
DRG + Litany and Dragon sight = 3,322 (kek)
+ disembowel on a 75th percentile brd (roughly 4% dps) = 3448
SMN + devotion = 3148

While difficulty is relative to player and fight, there is a fairly general consensus on which classes are harder and more inflexible and those that are easier and more flexible so factor that into these DPS numbers and then factor in any other utility (raises, defensive, agro management) to get an idea of the current balance. They wont nerf RDM but they better have some damn good buffs to make this more fair.

Note: I don't think they should balance around difficulty because thats relative as I and other have said, but they should balance around how the resources get affected by mechanics and how many mechanics savage is gonna have (because well, its savage) so classes that don't have timers on a lot of their buffs and resources shouldn't have high ceilings.

EDIT: Might aswell do every other class:

MCH: 3103
BRD: 3163
MNK: 3365
BLM: 3238

MCH + Hypercharge: 3313
BRD + all the shit BRD provides: 3556
MNK + Brofist: 3486
BLM + nothing lel = 3238

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Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

Note: I don't think they should balance around difficulty because thats relative as I and other have said, but they should balance around how the resources get affected by mechanics and how many mechanics savage is gonna have (because well, its savage) so classes that don't have timers on a lot of their buffs and resources shouldn't have high ceilings.

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I thought RDM had a mana bug that was letting them get more dps than they really should be?

Also, in chat today people was saying how they liked how much tougher a class is, they don't want all classes to be brain dead like RDM and Sam. They don't mind working harder for dps because that is fun to them. This is one of them things you can't win them all.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

I thought RDM had a mana bug that was letting them get more dps than they really should be?

Also, in chat today people was saying how they liked how much tougher a class is, they don't want all classes to be brain dead like RDM and Sam. They don't mind working harder for dps because that is fun to them. This is one of them things you can't win them all.

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And I agree. It's not only about usefulness I know. I like the aesthetics, play style (unpopular opinion but I like having to be creative) and just general style of DRG. I like that it is punishing (I admit it is annoying to lose everything outside your control like on lakshimis ult or rocks in susano but things like finding the optimal lotd activation based on how fast your team is for susano is fun for me) but there's no point if I'm so much lower than everyone else. That's why I try not to judge based on play style or difficulty, the furthest I go is based on how much you can get away with in fights.

In regard to the mana glitch... If that is indeed an oversight and is the main reason for RDM shitting out dps (here's where not actually having class experience bites you in the ass huh?) then I apologize for every time I've said RDM needs a nerf. If someone could gimme some rough numbers regarding how much this might actually contribute in a fight I would appreciate it. Honestly, I was convinced the that the dev team fucked up with RDM like they did with many others but in the opposite direction or it was to entice people to play the shiny new classes for the $$$

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

But no Job should have a superior kit just because it's harder to pull off.

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Strongly disagree. The one thing I want from an mmo is deep class gameplay that I can spend weeks, month and even years on perfecting. With this dev statement, why do I even bother?

All jobs should be easy enough to pick up, but at the same time have a high skill ceiling to push players to improve.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

TL;DR: Don't bother playing more difficult jobs. You don't get rewarded with higher performance, you only get more opportunities to mess up and perform worse as a result.

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Considering their earlier balance statements aren't met at all, I'd not trust that phrase either. Perhaps they'll scale up the inverse :P

i'm never a fan of nerfs. buff the other classes. and why punish people for playing a new class? it's an iconic class, it should be well off.

how would anyone like it to call for a nerf to a class you love to play? if you gut the dps or utility why even bother to play this game?

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Originally Posted by Fortune_Cookie

Strongly disagree. The one thing I want from an mmo is deep class gameplay that I can spend weeks, month and even years on perfecting. With this dev statement, why do I even bother?

All jobs should be easy enough to pick up, but at the same time have a high skill ceiling to push players to improve.

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Why bother? Because you want to do that. I agree completely with the sentiment, but why do you need be rewarded by being superior at the end of it. Is the act of working on perfection not enough?

I sincerely don't get it. Especially because I know where that road leads. The community always comes to expect the best so having superior jobs means some become irrelevant. Then there will be complaints about balance cause there are bad classes. They are already trying to simplify the player skill gaps, so what will happen then? Homogenization and everything gets dumbed down.

Having deep, interesting classes/jobs that take work to perfect will only survive if it's alongside classes/jobs which can equal damage for less work. That's how you keep balance and relevancy for all while offering different play styles for wider range of skill levels.

Mastering a class with a high skill ceiling is a beautiful thing. It's clear you get that, so why do you need to also just be superior when reaching that point? Is it not enough to say to yourself, "I'm proud to have gotten this down."

Edit:
I do agree with the last statement, that another way to balance it is to have all do decently well while all have a good skill ceiling to work towards. But that dream has vanished when they specifically made an effort to lower the skill gap in 4.0.

But there are plenty who want to play easier Jobs and may only be able to. Giving them an option to stay on par with someone else who plays something harder isn't wrong. There are things like FFLogs where the competition for deeper Jobs really lie. You compete with others of the same Job which is a lot fairer.

And again, you get the natural enjoyment of perfecting something rather than pummeling some other Job that couldn't do better even if the player wanted to.

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Originally Posted by Fortune_Cookie

Strongly disagree. The one thing I want from an mmo is deep class gameplay that I can spend weeks, month and even years on perfecting. With this dev statement, why do I even bother?

All jobs should be easy enough to pick up, but at the same time have a high skill ceiling to push players to improve.

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That might be what you want, but mmos are for all types of gamers, and all types want to enjoy things. Not all want too play a class where they feel the need too improve just to get enjoyment out of the class. That is silly.

The devs got it right on this, You want a tougher classes, play it..but that does not mean you should be better off than the easier class. You like the tough class, and that should be enough for you.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

That might be what you want, but mmos are for all types of gamers, and all types want to enjoy things. Not all want too play a class where they feel the need too improve just to get enjoyment out of the class. That is silly.

The devs got it right on this, You want a tougher classes, play it..but that does not mean you should be better off than the easier class. You like the tough class, and that should be enough for you.

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No it really shouldn't. More effort should equal more reward. It's that simple.

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Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

In regard to the mana glitch... If that is indeed an oversight and is the main reason for RDM shitting out dps (here's where not actually having class experience bites you in the ass huh?) then I apologize for every time I've said RDM needs a nerf. If someone could gimme some rough numbers regarding how much this might actually contribute in a fight I would appreciate it. Honestly, I was convinced the that the dev team fucked up with RDM like they did with many others but in the opposite direction or it was to entice people to play the shiny new classes for the $$$

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In interest of full disclosure, I only learned of this glitch last night and without it still place in the 77th percentile on my best run of Lakshmi, at ~3370 points.

EDIT: An FC mate and I were trying this out on a dummy. It looks like when your crystal is white, all mana spent and generated from black mana (and vice versa) is completely halved. The latter may be intentional as a punishment for imbalancing your mana, and its possible the former is an unintended side effect.

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Originally Posted by Core1019

No it really shouldn't. More effort should equal more reward. It's that simple.

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It is not that simple, and the devs don't agree with you. As many other players.

It is all about class flavor and what you enjoy. Not how hard it is. You can't balance a game with that type of mindset. That is why rdm, and sam are not getting nerfed from what the live letter just said.

SMN's complaining about not being able to heal and shitting on RDM because they have 1 single target heal?

this isn't Final Fantasy Solo. sustain would have been nice to keep. a SMN is lucky to even have any sort of healing at all, mainly because of the design from SCH.

think for a minute, if you cry for this in a group setting who can heal your pet? real Healers are going to be focused on healing tanks, then themselves and dps in a group... not your PETS. a Red Mage however could spend time to patch heal your pet in a raid setting or even use your own chocobo if soloing to heal you or your pet.

i don't think anyone who plays summoner did it to heal at all or support spot heal. they made it to dps and use pets. an in combat battle rez is nice utility as it is! a tremendous help

you don't see how crying for nerfs will actually hurt you. if you get a nerf to RDM and a Buff to you? it means RDM will spend more time solely DPSing in raid and pissing off people who wanted to embrace a true hybrid while you spend more time in RAID healing your pets instead of DPSing

the key is to THINK of the entire situation not just yourselves in this equation

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

That might be what you want, but mmos are for all types of gamers, and all types want to enjoy things. Not all want too play a class where they feel the need too improve just to get enjoyment out of the class. That is silly.

The devs got it right on this, You want a tougher classes, play it..but that does not mean you should be better off than the easier class. You like the tough class, and that should be enough for you.

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This is ridiculous.

The tougher class will always underperform against the easier class if they both have the same reward. Someone of equal skill playing (easy) class vs someone of equal skill playing (hard) class means that the easy class will win every time. "Hard" is under the assumption that its dps is more vulnerable to mechanics happening, or that it has some ridiculous mechanic that can fall off because Susano jailed you. There is no reason to play a harder class at all. People enjoy optimization and consistency more than difficulty, it's just a fact. That's why the obsession with speedrunning exists in the first place. No one is going to take the more difficult classes because they don't offer anything extra aside from, "my bad I messed up so my DPS took a huge hit," and that's it.

Do not delude yourself or try to delude others. I'm not saying that more difficult classes should be stronger, but at this point they should stop being lazy and just make the more difficult classes just as easy as SAM and RDM if they're going to balance it this way.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

You can't balance a game with that type of mindset.

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You can't balance it at all, at least in that regard.

Either you make it so that the hard and the easy job have similar/equal performance, then there's no reason to ever pick the hard job, as you'll always perform better on easier jobs due to less opportunities to eff up, or you make it so that the reward is equal to the effort required, then only the bad players are gonna pick the easier job and the job gets locked out from high performance content. League of Legends had that same issue with their champions for ages, with some of them dominating in high elo and in championships while having a low winrate in low elo.

It's all just a question of whether effort should be rewarded or not. And the live letter said no, effort should not be rewarded. The question now is when normal mode raids and trials get the same rewards as Extreme and Savage, because that's the logical consequence of that mindset.

no nerfss thank u SE

You are being ridiculous.

It is not about winning, it is about what that person finds fun.

Playing a class that is hard and punish you for messing up is its own reward, People like that type of thing, There is no "winning" the devs made it crystal clear. They balance off play style. Instead of people crying about nerfing said class because that class does so much better, maybe the class they are playing is just not for them. You are playing a tougher class, you adjust and have fun with it. Or reroll. It is that simple.


The people who cry about other classes clearly are not good enough with that class, and don't like playing a class that punishes you for messing up. Hey that is fine! Choices are fun, and to make all of the classes as easy as RDM and Sam is not the answer.