the mp recovery from aetherflow isnt even enough for one adlo

So is everyone forgetting that Free Cure exists?

Thin Air itself pushes WHM way ahead of both the other healers regardless of what else they have.

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Originally Posted by Mirili

WHM did have to be more careful spending MP, but it was also spending MP on the beefiest heals. You got your money's worth. Right now, Scholar is spending more MP for the least effective heals. That ain't right.

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Nailed it.

A large part of why SCH rarely dealt with MP issues was attributed to so many of our skills being directly tied to Aetherflow stacks. We were using as much mana as we were recharging as our big heals used 0. Couple that with Eos being a permanent and powerful off-healer, and you have an overly powerful job.

So SE nerfed everything, but did too much.

Side effects include taking Largesse over Eye for an Eye to cover potency loss, thus making Deployment Tactics wasted space, and furthering the uselessness of Selene, as Eos's heal potency up and regen AoEs grossly outclass Selene's pittly haste and esuna AoEs.

Fairy is barely noticable now, she didn't even need a potency nerf, and once again square has forgotten the HP increase of players from going to 60-70, much like the mistake of stoneskin nerf, ignoring the damage output of enemies. she does not make up for it. if anything she just replaces a weak regen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Side effects include taking Largesse over Eye for an Eye to cover potency loss, thus making Deployment Tactics wasted space, and furthering the uselessness of Selene, as Eos's heal potency up and regen AoEs grossly outclass Selene's pittly haste and esuna AoEs.

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Deployment Tactics was never about spreading E4E. i only use Eos for learning or when i know the party isn't any good. Selene isn't great but currently you don't really need Eos for anything.

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Originally Posted by Freyt

Aetherflow + Lucid Dreaming (you didn't have this before) + Energy Drain x3 + Dissipation -> Energy Drain x3, or instead of Energy Draining using those stacks for heals instead of using Adlo, using Rouse to give your MP a break.

I'm not telling you not to complain, but I'm hoping that a few more people can actually see how much MP Scholars actually have.

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Might as well say, stand around doing nothing = Unlimited Mana.

In reality?

You could not do Energy Drain once, because the fight is actually hard? -> Lose a lot of mana.

Dissipation for Mana Reg.. did you actually play Scholar once? You have to pay 2.400 mana to get the fairy back, which is 2 Energy Drains already lol... and also you have to waste 60 seconds of swiftcast, this is a terrible way to reg mana.

So if based on your logic, we have to gimp ourselves, to use the mp "we actually have", then gg...

I'm not even from the complaining camp, i did not have any problems with mana management in any content available right now, i even enjoy the raise in "difficulty" to heal as a scholar, but your comment does not make any sense at all.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

Deployment Tactics was never about spreading E4E. i only use Eos for learning or when i know the party isn't any good. Selene isn't great but currently you don't really need Eos for anything.

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I must just be a bad then as Whispering Dawn is still a heavily relied upon part of my kit.

I think if Selene's haste could increase to the 5% buff that an AoE Arrow card has, and keep it's larger 20y range, I might feel comfortable swapping back to maining Selene. With our access to Esuna at low levels, now, Selene's niche shrank even further.


But, most Scholars using Selene don't really USE Selene. If you actively work to keep her haste going for as much uptime as possible, and can accurately get her silence to hit, Selene could be very useful.

It's just hard to be a healer without the healer focused pet most of the time.

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Originally Posted by Freyt

Energy drain only.

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I wanna throw my book at you so hard you see chocobo chicks circling your head.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

I find it funny all those people talking down to the guy who promoted Energy Drain use. It's a legitimate way to get MP back.

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Sure Energy Drain is a legit way to get my MP back, but to have to blast all 3 stacks on energy drain, and kill my fairy as well? You know how dumb that sounds? Like wtf bruh do you even SCH?

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Let's just use extreme cases of idiots dying left right center. And that all 3 healers have their buffs up.

WHM - Thin Air + Presence of Mind > Raise or Thin Air + Swift Cast Raise = 0 MP used

AST - Lightspeed > Ascend = Less 25% of MP used.

SCH - Hello MP, it was nice knowing you.

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Not to mention, my Rosa's Chocobo Cure (300 Potency) heals more than Eos/Selene's Embrace (250 Potency). SERIOUSLY SE?! SERIOUSLY????!!!!

Here are the changes I would like to see:
1) Embrace potency back to 300.
2) Aetherflow back to 20% MP recovered OR Increase the 20% chance of Quickened Aetherflow to 100% but cut the 10s reduction to 5-7s.
3) Fey Union stops draining the gauge when the target is out of range.
4) Excogitation automatically heals when the 30s timer goes off.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

Selene isn't great but currently you don't really need Eos for anything.

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Do you even Susan EX?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

I must just be a bad then as Whispering Dawn is still a heavily relied upon part of my kit.

I think if Selene's haste could increase to the 5% buff that an AoE Arrow card has, and keep it's larger 20y range, I might feel comfortable swapping back to maining Selene. With our access to Esuna at low levels, now, Selene's niche shrank even further.


But, most Scholars using Selene don't really USE Selene. If you actively work to keep her haste going for as much uptime as possible, and can accurately get her silence to hit, Selene could be very useful.

It's just hard to be a healer without the healer focused pet most of the time.

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It'll get easier as the patch cycle continues, it always does. However I definitely feel now more than ever that Selene is in bad need of some pretty critical buffs. Fey Wind needs to be increased to 5% like you stated and more over Silent Dusk needs to be completely gutted and turned into something useful. How many enemies are there in end game content that can actually be silenced? Almost none and when leveling, the one time it's guaranteed, you're more likely to use Eos simply to free up your hands to DPS. It needs to be another buff, an aoe heal, or something entirely different as right now it's utterly useless on top of a meta that sees Fey Caress likewise all but useless in raids. I've counted ONE debuff I need to instantly remove from the party in all the current raids, and that's Exdeath's single Doom cast. Beyond that it's a wasted skill as most of the debuffs cannot be removed like Susano's paralyze.

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Originally Posted by Enla

Snip

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Im a fan of turning it into a weakened version of the original virus, or a heavier version of Miasma II since it would be a DoT on a 40s cd. More importantly though, why were the fairy abilities not linked to the fairy thats out like others for the button bloat update...

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Originally Posted by Enla

Snip.

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The singular instance I've personally find Selene to be favorable is Odin's trial. Selene can immediately cleanse some party wide bleeds, preventing Odin from stacking them during the DPS checks. She also cleanses the slows he likes to hit people with too, and her haste can help there.

Every other single moment otherwise, I have Eos out.

I'd scrap Silent Dusk entirely and replace it with a new skill. How about something like a single target defense buff? Help tanks and players with weakness survive hard hits? Maybe like 15% to 20% damage reduction for 10 seconds so it's potent edge, but give it a 60 CD to keep it in line with most tank mitigation skills.

That would fit Selene thematically as the support faerie and would actually be a skill we could easily use and strategize with. Fae Kiss or something.

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Originally Posted by Lildragora

More importantly though, why were the fairy abilities not linked to the fairy thats out like others for the button bloat update...

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THIS IS A VERY GOOD POINT

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Snip

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I like this idea, however increasing the CD is not an option as the fairy abilities share a CD so a Whispering Dawn rework would need to be done and I dont want to trust SE with that.

Its the same reason why I cant support Dissipation being a fairy swap mechanic which would be awesome.

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Originally Posted by RaquelleAvarosa

Sure Energy Drain is a legit way to get my MP back, but to have to blast all 3 stacks on energy drain, and kill my fairy as well? You know how dumb that sounds? Like wtf bruh do you even SCH?

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If you have to send away your fairy for stacks cuz you desperately need that MP, I don't see why not. Also, you may want to tone down the condescension.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

Deployment Tactics was never about spreading E4E. i only use Eos for learning or when i know the party isn't any good. Selene isn't great but currently you don't really need Eos for anything.

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It's not about "needing" eos, it's about eos being far more powerful than selene and you basically gimping yourself every time you choose selene over eos (excluding niche fights like Odin), that's assuming you actually manually use her skills, most scholars out there use eos but never ever use her skills.

agreed, this really needs to be fixed ;/

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Originally Posted by QooEr

maybe you should learn how to heal.

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You're forgetting one very important skill, from WHM: Thin Air.
Dissipation IMO, will ALWAYS be a horrible skill. SCH is a PET JOB!
Why are we killing our fairy? I'm shocked they didn't tweak or remove it.
And then you have to waste MP to get her back again.
What you said just makes it sound like Aether is solely used for ED.
I kinda need those for Sacred Soil and Indomitably you know...
Not staring at my book and go "Hm! Lemme just use this for for ED onry!" and attack lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikhaill

You're forgetting one very important skill, from WHM: Thin Air.
Dissipation IMO, will ALWAYS be a horrible skill. SCH is a PET JOB!
Why are we killing our fairy? I'm shocked they didn't tweak or remove it.
And then you have to waste MP to get her back again.
What you said just makes it sound like Aether is solely used for ED.
I kinda need those for Sacred Soil and Indomitably you know...
Not staring at my book and go "Hm! Lemme just use this for for ED onry!" and attack lol.

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u know whats funny i tend to forget to use thin air on whm and im fine because i dont spam medica like a fool

3 ED's from dissipation give more than enough mp to compensate resummining your fairy

sacred soil IS NOT NEEDED EVER. use fey covenant if youre so desperate for mitigation

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Originally Posted by ErryK

If you have to send away your fairy for stacks cuz you desperately need that MP, I don't see why not. Also, you may want to tone down the condescension.

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Killing the fairy is a no go. Especially Eos.
What are you gonna do when your MP is low and there's incoming raid wide damage?
Succor with Emergency tactics is gonna kill your MP even more (heals peanuts too) and you blasted all 3 stacks on Energy Drain so no Indomitability.
Rouse + Whispering Dawn is your best bet, even better with Fey Illumination.

That super condescending part wasn't directed at you. And I'm not gonna tone it down because his comment was really.mega.dumb.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by QooEr

u know whats funny i tend to forget to use thin air on whm and im fine because i dont spam medica like a fool
3 ED's from dissipation give more than enough mp to compensate resummining your fairy

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If you're wasting all the time and potential mana from dissipation just to re-summon the fairy, why are you killing the fairy in the first place?

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sacred soil IS NOT NEEDED EVER. use fey covenant if youre so desperate for mitigation

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You do realize that both can be used at the same time? Or that one might be on CD and you still need the mitigation? Or that Fey Covenant only buffs magic defense so is useless against some forms of damage?

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Do you even Susan EX?

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23 tokens and counting. have i ever solo healed it from beginning to end on SCH? no.

Susano AOE is easily recoverable with precast Succor, Largesse + Emergency Tactics Succor + Indom. if you need Eos on top of that your other healer is really bad. and like i said if i know the party isn't any good i would use Eos.

double SCH healed it for like 5 runs too. the other SCH did use Eos.

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Originally Posted by Aerowaffle

If you're wasting all the time and potential mana from dissipation just to re-summon the fairy, why are you killing the fairy in the first place?

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you still gain something from it. and im not one to usually be killing my fairy anyways

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Originally Posted by Aerowaffle

You do realize that both can be used at the same time? Or that one might be on CD and you still need the mitigation? Or that Fey Covenant only buffs magic defense so is useless against some forms of damage?

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why would you though. give me One fight where both are needed at the same time. give me One fight where there's PHYSICAL raid-wide aoe damage.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

you still gain something from it. and im not one to usually be killing my fairy anyways

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In situations where you can afford to kill your fairy and spend the additional time to ED and quickcast it back alive, you didn't need the buff anyways.

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why would you though. give me One fight where both are needed at the same time. give me One fight where there's PHYSICAL raid-wide aoe damage.

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For more mitigation? This argument of why would you "need" the mitigation is foolish. Technically you don't "need" any mitigation at all. But more mitigation makes AOE more safe to handle. And I believe the Susano EX sword phase has physical damage on it, correct me if I'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by Aerowaffle

In situations where you can afford to kill your fairy and spend the additional time to ED and quickcast it back alive, you didn't need the buff anyways.

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deeps bro. you can also use it during downtime like ultimates for 3 free aetherflow stacks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aerowaffle

For more mitigation? This argument of why would you "need" the mitigation is foolish. Technically you don't "need" any mitigation at all. But more mitigation makes AOE more safe to handle.

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mitigation overkill eats away all your aetherflow stacks so maybe thats why ppl are having mp problems. its literally almost as bad as overhealing
i say use fey covenant because its both completely free of cost and it also helps you save one succor or indom cast, further reducing your mp usage
scholars need to start using their whole toolkit intelligently more or should stop complaining about mp, because they have by far the best mp recovery than any other healer

and no, susanos sword phase is not physical aoe damage

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Originally Posted by QooEr

because they have by far the best mp recovery than any other healer

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There's a different post pointing out where you were wrong about that;

Quote:

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

Your list is so incomplete it almost screams SCH bias.

• What about WHM's Thin Air? That's 0 MP cost for 12 seconds. If you had to do PoM + Medica I spam you save about 10k MP. And if you had to, you could spam 6 Cure III to save nearly 14k MP.

• AST has Lightspeed which reduces MP cost by 25% for 10 seconds while reducing cast times by 2.5 seconds. If you had to spam 4 Helios then you saved 1440 MP.

• AST can also draw Ewer, which is a base 50 potency refresh for 5 ticks. Extending or Enhancing it can increase this MP regen further.

• With the AST stuff in mind, they can do Extended Ewer + LD + Lightspeed + CO if MP issues are that severe.

Those 3-6 energy Drains used at the start of a pull are usually used for DPS, not MP, so they shouldn't be counted as so unless you can somehow spend enough MP in the first 60 seconds to get the full MP benefit of SIX Energy Drains. Spoiler Alert! Most likely not.

Others have commented on the relative MP cost of an AF stack when not used for Energy Drain so I won't go into that.
EDIT #1: Also forgot that AST has a cheaper toolkit as a whole compared to WHM and SCH, indirectly giving them better MP regen.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aerowaffle

There's a different post pointing out where you were wrong about that;

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when do you ever medica spam. i really can only think of the most heal intensive savage fights and probably nidhogg ex
lightspeed which is rarely ever used in a decent farm party because it reduces dps
ewer which is usually burned to give aoe rr effect


yes the other ones are Potentially better, but sch is more consistent

Quote:

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Originally Posted by QooEr

u know whats funny i tend to forget to use thin air on whm and im fine because i dont spam medica like a fool

3 ED's from dissipation give more than enough mp to compensate resummining your fairy

sacred soil IS NOT NEEDED EVER. use fey covenant if youre so desperate for mitigation

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My response to the Medica and SS never being needed.
https://media.giphy.com/media/2REdmYBYkCsEg/giphy.gif
Saw this response few hours ago at work, had no words.
Hours later, still don't. So here's a pic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikhaill

My response to the Medica and SS never being needed.
https://media.giphy.com/media/2REdmYBYkCsEg/giphy.gif
Saw this response few hours ago at work, had no words.
Hours later, still don't. So here's a pic.

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im talking about playing with good groups here. healers aren't carry machines. even in pre echo a12s and a11s i rarely ever needed to spam aoe healing except that one time i was solo healing a12s (unless you count doing 2 or 3 casts "spam")

Quote:

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Originally Posted by QooEr

im talking about playing with good groups here. healers aren't carry machines. even in pre echo a12s and a11s i rarely ever needed to spam aoe healing except that one time i was solo healing a12s (unless you count doing 2 or 3 casts "spam")

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All groups are not bastions of excellence either. We're not claiming that SCH should be able to carry groups of players that fail every mechanic, we're talking about the relative power of SCH compared to other healing roles. And more specifically, the mana efficiency to HPS of SCH compared to those other roles.

Dissipation, in its current carnation isn't a MP regen tool, it's an MP pawn shop. You sacrifice your fairy AND kill off your ability to resummon her. Up front you get a decent deal. A free energy worth of mp at least! But now Eos/selene is dead. How are you going to compensate for her embrace? That's 1670+ real healer potency you're losing.

You either:

1) Have to spend more gcds healing, burning all the mana you gained in 1-2 gcds

OR

2) You borrow from your coheal, making them heal the difference!

In fights with long animations downtimes, dissipation is ok. It unfortunately, is 1000x more restrictive than ast/whm skills of a "similar" design. Plus it either costs you a hard cast or a swiftcast to get Eos/Selene back.

When it was bugged, dissipation worked well for an ideal fairy swap mechanic. I feel they should adjust that into the game.

https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/m...issipation.png Dissipation: Orders your pet away while granting you a full Aetherflow stack.
Also grants a buff that increases healing magic potency by 20%. Your next Summon or Summon II is instant cast. Buff ends after 30 seconds or when your next Summon or Summon II is cast. Aetherflow spent while in dissipation will fill fairy gauge at a rate of 20 instead of 10. Using aetherflow outside of a fairy summoned or dissipation will have no effect on the gauge..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aerowaffle

All groups are not bastions of excellence either. We're not claiming that SCH should be able to carry groups of players that fail every mechanic, we're talking about the relative power of SCH compared to other healing roles. And more specifically, the mana efficiency to HPS of SCH compared to those other roles.

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i do agree that scholar cant aoe heal spam and could probably use a buff in its healing or mp costs, but so far aoe heal spam hasnt been needed most of the times (and besides, you have a cohealer. if a fight is seriously so heal intensive that you need to desperately aoe heal spam its not like youre going to be solo healing it or dual sch). as for mp efficiency, indom and lustrate "cost" 1200 mp (that aetherflow stack could be used on an energy drain, which gives 1200 mp). so you have scholar with an instant aoe heal for 1200 mp. helios costs 1440 and medica 1680. you also get deployment tactics aka 300 potency aoe "heal" for 1800mp or 900 potency if the adlo crits. whispering dawn is a completely free medica 2 (and you can rouse it so it does 40% more every single time).

for single target healing theres also the fairy (nerfed, granted, but its still completely free 250 potency healing every 3 seconds. over a minute thats 5000 potency per minute which is way higher than essential dignity or tetragramaton) and fey union, a 480 potency REGEN on a single target. and adlo might cost 600 mp more than a lustrate, but since it can crit and double its shield effectiveness its probably a fair tradeoff

the cost for succor though... i dont know why its so high

The fairy gauge is only up and working when fairy is up. If you dissipate your fairy, none of your aetherflow skills add to the gauge as it can't charge the fairy if there isn't one. :/

I don't know off the top of my head if the gauge amount is reset upon resummon since I so rarely use Dissipation.

I mained SCH in 3.X but switched to AST because I wanted a challenge when healing.

It wasn't that SCH didn't have a high skill ceiling. It absolutely did. It's just that the class was basically impossible to screw up with (unless you were doing savage content or something). AST could go OOM in seconds (and kinda still can if damage gets bad and you don't draw enough Ewers), but 3.X SCH could fling gobs of mana at the boss with both hands and never have to worry about it.

That said, the nerf in 4.0 is absolutely overkill, yes.

It's strange: the dev team nails it on some classes but fails it on others (mainly WAR, MCH, and SCH).

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Originally Posted by QooEr

Snip

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See, this is the kind of things that make Scholar seem a-okay on paper.

But between the heavy handed nerfs, you miss the fact that so many of the new skills fail to synergize between ourselves and co-healers.

Dissipation kills the fairy, giving us MP and Aetherflow, but halts Fairy Gauge build-up.

Excog is completely wasted if your co-healer is keeping the player with it on above 50%HP.

A tethered fairy cannot do anything while tethered except the single target regen and the range is so short she's needs to be in the line of fire to use it.

Losing Eye for and Eye to the role pool lessens the utility of Deployment Tactics. Most Scholars, myself included, are grabbing Lucid Dreaming or Largesse, instead.



And no one has mentioned the shameful, dumpster fire that is SCH in PVP.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Stuff

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literally every healer needs synergy if youre putting it this way. with good synergy, scholar helps both healers maximize their dps. why do you think almost every speedrun takes scholar even back in heavensward?

dissipation kills the fairy halting fairy gauge, yes, and thats why healers plan their skill usage around fights. if people just blindly pressing buttons its obvious why theyre having problems with scholar

if your cohealer keeps the player at abopve 50% excog isnt "wasted". i would stop healing and let my heal happy cohealer do whatever they want because overhealing is useless.

a tethered fairy cant do anything, yes, but the gain on single target heal is way more significant. i really rather be closer to the tank (which a lot of people should be anyways if you want the fairy buffs to reach everyone) and not worry about healing a tank thats taking constant damage too much than have some embraces.

eye for an eye is really almost negligible. its unreliable and it only gives a chance for 10% reduction AFTER the damage happens. a tank's reprisal or a dps feint/addle are more useful by a lot. Lucid dreaming is a must on all healers and if ppl dont have it on scholar its probably why theyre complaining about mp.

I just couldn't read some of these posts anymore. It's clear who plays the job extensively and who maybe dabbles in it. If you take a Skill at face value then there is something wrong with you. I feel many people are missing the forest for the trees. You wanna focus on one aspect and point out what it does and why it might need a nerf/buff, but you have to look at everything as a whole. SCH wasn't OP as people want to indicate, our kit was just that solid, very few skills that were meaningless and everythgin flowed nicely together, really only Silent Dusk was our only "bad" skill. WHM and AST's kits weren't as tight-nit; stoneskin, repose, fluid aura, some card combos, collective unconscious, noct sect (when AST firt launched at least) those skills and many more didn't add much to the flow of battle. Now SCH is the one whose kit is a mess. We need that fixed.

I haven't had any MP problems healing the delta raids as a SCH thanks to lucid dreaming, aetherflow, energy drain and deployment tactics with adlo. I can post a screenshot of ACT but I am constantly above the WHM in Encounter HPS with low overhealing in my PUG last night. Stats look some thing like

WHM 1.5m EncHPS 50% Overheal 1800 DPS
SCH 2.0m EncHPS 25% Overheal 1700 DPS

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paoweeotter

I haven't had any MP problems healing the delta raids as a SCH thanks to lucid dreaming, aetherflow, energy drain and deployment tactics with adlo. I can post a screenshot of ACT but I am constantly above the WHM in Encounter HPS with low overhealing in my PUG last night. Stats look some thing like

WHM 1.5m EncHPS 50% Overheal 1800 DPS
SCH 2.0m EncHPS 25% Overheal 1700 DPS

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HPS means nothing without DPS and still means almost nothing after, unless you continue to compare it to other groups with similar dps.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

Stuff

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You bet every healer needs synergy! This is part of why Astrologian is so powerful. They lack skills that actively contradict others.

Dropping the fairy to dissipate her for MP was constantly brought up as a means to deal with MP problems, but the loss of her heals is a high cost that's hard to justify. That said, strategizing for Aetherflows is good play. So, no argument there.

Excognition costs a valuable Aetherflow and drops off if the player under it's effect never loses half HP in 30 seconds. That's what I would consider overhealing and a waste.

The fairy tether is an issue for me as it's not just embrace that I'm losing. I'm losing ALL of her skills until I break it or the gauge is depleted.

Continued below because mobile lacks an edit button.

The act of tethering also forcefully places my fairy, so it's extra steps to get her to safety if AoE's drop. I know it's personal preference, but I find keeping her relative location near me helps to manage her range and keep her out of stupid.

.I've heard this argument regarding E4E being weak, it doesn't change the fact that it removes one ability Deployment CAN spread off the table, which hurts the skill.

Everyone has Lucid. Everyone is accounting for Lucid access on top of Aetherflow, which only restores 10% MP verses 20% despite our increased MP costs. No one wants to rely on drains as we give up half of our kit to do so. It isn't a good answer.