Problem: Items are Worthless

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Originally Posted by Lienn

Or you could just do like suggested in another thread....make HQ -> HQ conversion proportional. If all mats are at least +1 you get a sure +1 result from the synth. If all mats are at least +2 you get a sure +2 result and if all mats are +3 you get a sure +3 result. This would increase the value of HQ materials but, at same time, protect the value of all equipment tiers since they all would have a closer potential rarity. Would be more like how much a player would be willing to pay in an equipment than really offer/demand.

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this is a bad idea. devaluing the HQ items considerably is not an option.

I think either the addition of a desynth for NQ items is a good idea to remove these items from the economy. but instead of having that powdery thing to empower future synths, i think a system such as aions enchanting cwould be a good idea.

If youre not familiar with it, you basically can DE any item to get a stone of certain level, which can be used to enchant your armor and weapons for additional stats. When you fail that enchant, you lose part of that additional bonus and have to try again tho.

This adds a new market that adds consumables worthy enough to buy, risky enough so that you have to spend good money to get your enchanted weapon to max level, and takes care of the excess by destroying the armor/weapons no one wants.

@Leinn & @Rjain

I like the idea of crystal powder or something similar; but Rjain is right, anything that devalues HQ is overall detrimental. That said, if there were some tweaking to the NQ/HQ system (maybe not a complete re-write but serious re-balancing) then something could be done along this lines without overall devaluation. An example would be remove the ability to randomly HQ 1/2/3 with less than 100/200/300 Quality. This would reduce the overall HQ rate a bit. Add in crystal powder to provide a small boost and with proper balancing you can put the overall NQ/HQ ratio back where it is now. From there, just tweak up or down in accordance with the number of players/crafters and current economy as needed.

This is just one idea, and maybe not the best, but its a good example of one way to potentially decrease the NQ market glut without just shifting it to the HQ market. Ideas like the crystal powder should be given some serious debate because, as with everything in the MMO, properly balanced it won't detract from the game.

And Rjain, I whole heatedly agree with some sort of enchantment system. Not only would it be a great opportunity for crafters in general, but also provides a chance to introduce a new crafting class, if SE so desired. I'm sure both of us could come up with a complete set of abilities for such a class and get it relatively balanced in the current system (though I doubt they will add classes until after the new systems are in place).

NQ market will always be dead while the mats are so easy to obtain.

True true. Like i said, it was suggested in another topic here. I just quoted the idea here assuming people would want a boost on HQ rate (based on OP). The powder thing is actually very similar to what Raijin said...you're pretty much turning a finished item into something else to boost another item. I'd assume the way you said it like a reforging, right? Multiple synthesis to enhance an already finished weapon.

I must say i saw a system similar to this one at Dragonica, where you could reforge over and over an weapon until you reach the obscene HQ of +20. But if you fail upgrading it you could, from losing partially or completely the HQ effect (becoming NQ again) or, after a certain point, even losing the weapon. I didn't like this much because it was like gambling ALOT of work (specially since dragonica is heavily based on cash shop so the reforge rate was minimal after a while to force people buying stuff to protect the weapon from breaking if it fail).

But if you want me to say a game that excells in anything regarding weapon upgrades, i can suggest the summon night serie (GBA/DS). The reforge synthesis there is awsome, with you having the "blueprint" of weapons only...like you can synthesis a "Bhuj" but the finished bhuj will be based on what you put on synth. An example would be like this...i pick a bhuj recipe and it lists a head, a shaft, a butt, a clasp and a glue. Its up to you to combine the items the way you want, with some generating different weapons (if you use a bronze bhuj head you will have a bronze bhuj, if you use an iron bhuj head you will have an iron bhuj) and others just changing the effects of it (like adding an ash shaft would end i a bhuj with better accuracy while a cedar shaft would end in a bhuj with better attack)...and if you get an HQ you being able to exchange the stars for even further bonuses (like a iron bhuj +2 could be enhaced by exchanginh a star for a reforge with an item that adds +5 STR effect, becoming then a iron bhuj +1 with +5 STR additional effect. You then could exchange again the star for another reforge, lets say i add an item that adds + 5 DEX this time...it would become a iron bhuj with additional +5 STR and +5 DEX effect).

Even further, similar to a tactics game from SE i forgot the name (all the artwork was made by the same artist that do FF artworks), if you follow a certain reforge path you may not reach what you wanted, but a totally different item (like...if it was a +3 iron bhuj instead of a +2 and, after i made an iron bhuj and add + 5 str and +5 dex i did a third reforge adding another +5 STR and it happens to be the correct path for a Conqueror Bhuj, isntead of receiving my Iron bhuj with additional effects i'd receive an conqueror bhuj, which is obviously more powerful than the iron bhuj with the 3 additional effects). But of course that reforges would add no HQ version...or else this would have a chance of keep going forever if the dude is extremely lucky.

But back to summon night...the cool there is that you can even name your weapon after a certain amount of reforges, which woould be very nice here too as soon as renamed item become exclusive.

I'm not a crafting tycoon like you guys, but i think we should point out the issues and let the developers find a way to fix them, instead of proposing systems.

It's obvious that going by gut feelings you can get to criticize something as fundamental in this game's design as crafting classes being as central as battle classes: you don't have the whole system perfectly laid out on paper like SE does.
So let's just say we want challenging battles like CoP and let SE decide how to make it viable in this system. If enough of us point a problem, it will be addressed eventually.

About CoP, i loved it, but the reason we won't ever get something as good as that was is because lots of people hated to be unable to defeat a capped instanced fight at the very first try like every other quest in the game and preferred to camp a NM that had impossibly long respawns precisely to avoid people camping it, or to farm gobbues all day long.
Difficult fights? Party strategy? Beautiful scenario? One of the best stories ever seen in a Final Fantasy game? Too much of a hassle.

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Originally Posted by Amineri

Let my point out that the premise of including crafters and gatherers does not preclude the concept of challenging and epic stories and missions. Currently the major story arc is solo-only, and thus the combat is toned down to a point where it is trivial for a combat class. When group-based quest content is added this need not be the case.

So far the concept of crafters and gatherers as fully realized classes in their own right is new, and there is much to be added to make it a complete system. Let me point you here for one concept I've had about how to make exciting challenges that require a diversity of classes to succeed.

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And that's the whole point for me. Group based Story content is not gonna be in the game ever, as long as Crafters are supposed to be able to finish those storylines as well. They would have to make Crafters somewhat "Battle"classes to actually give them use in those battles, like giving them debuffs(which they "announced weay before the beta started"...)
I remember SE saying that Armorers for example could use a skill to lower the defense of an armor based mob, since they have in depth knowledge about armor...but this is not the case...they are just crafting and nothing else and if it stays this way, there will be no group based story content, cause it would exclude crafters from it. They would have to remake all crafting and gathering classes...and lets be honest...this is not gonna happen.

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Yes i do. And if you don't then i guess you didn't pick a nice class to fight Maat the first time. ^^

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So you felt "epic" and like you saved the world when you defeated Maat? <.<
I was refering to Ealdanarche, Kamlanaut and Promathia etc...if you would have fought these bosses solo...and they would be as easdy as current fights in FFXIV...

They only thing that I would feel is...why wasn't "08/15" Adventurer No.17853 killing this shit quick?

In a competitive market, the seller does not set the price. That's what OP wants to do.

Here's a basic outline of what happens in an open market: A producer recognizes a product that can be sold for a profit, then they produce it; other producers recognize that there is profit to be made, then they also produce said product; the market is now flooded, causing the price to tank; the producers stop producing and prices normalize.

I suggest that the OP sell their stock and move to an unsaturated product.

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Originally Posted by sWhiteboy

In a competitive market, the seller does not set the price. That's what OP wants to do.

Here's a basic outline of what happens in an open market: A producer recognizes a product that can be sold for a profit, then they produce it; other producers recognize that there is profit to be made, then they also produce said product; the market is now flooded, causing the price to tank; the producers stop producing and prices normalize.

I suggest that the OP sell their stock and move to an unsaturated product.

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that is correct, however in an economy things are perishable, decaying, outdated. This is not occurring in this economy and all items that are being made arent taken out of the market, so preety much every item that can be flooded to hell i already with a very limited profit margin or negative profit margin.

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Originally Posted by Raijin

that is correct, however in an economy things are perishable, decaying, outdated. This is not occurring in this economy and all items that are being made arent taken out of the market, so preety much every item that can be flooded to hell i already with a very limited profit margin or negative profit margin.

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Both of these are solid and valid points, other games have solved this problem.

While some of the item do in fact perish when a player quits or decides to NPC an item (which the OP could simply buy all the NQ and NPC them if she was so inclined to "fix" the market)....but this is rare.

Other games solution is to make some weapons/armor "customized" once equipped , or for WoW players "binds on equip"; meaning once the item is used by a player it cannot be sold. I know a lot of you may think that's kinda harsh for the buyer, but it's really not that bad because prices are much more stable. IE: only those who NEED the item buy it usually. Once the item is no longer useful it can be sold to an NPC (taken out of the system) for a FAIR price (not a total slap in the face) allowing players to recoop about 50% of what they should have paid for the item; which in turn allows them to purchase a newer weapon/armor from the crafter. It's a fair, and useful system; that makes sense. (How can a Roegedyn, buy, re-use, and wear the same acton that was customized and worn by a Lalafell?)

Again, as with most of my posts I'll mention.....this isn't rocket science....these methods to combat the problems the OPer and other see have been around for a decade already. SE just didn't bother to do their homework.

EDIT:
I'll also add in that the only way to have a stable market is to make most every item/weapon/armor available at NPC's for 5 times the crafting costs (or a fair price for base mats) thus making the player sellers unable to over inflate the price of that item, yet keeping the crafting profitable when the crafter sells the item under the NPC price. In turn players prefer to buy from crafters because they should get a steep discount on the item by doing so.

If a player base attempts to over-inflate the price of a base martial, rather than allowing the trickle down exponentially inflate prices of crafted items; the crafters simply go purchase the item from the NPC until the player base realizes no is gonna buy that item at such a ridiculous price.

Again, this isn't a new idea, or speculation, or one that "may or may not" work....it's a system that has been in place in many MMO's with success for quite a few years.

Personally, I can totally agree with what's been said a lot here, the lack of perishables and easy introducing new items is only going to degrade the market as we go on.

However, I think there's got to be a better solution that the absurdity of merging 512 bows (which not only makes no sense, but is also an incredibly dull grind). I'm not one to propose some radical new system, especially as I really don't feel like donating the time to it as you so generously have. However, I'm confident there's a better way of doing it.

It just feels like a system suggestion that's made by someone tailoring it to themselves and the situation they're in personally, is the main impression I get.

EDIT: I also don't agree with a bind-on-equip system being added personally, WoW's economy might work relatively well, but the crafting system is an awful example of MMO success being as it becomes near-redundant after the first 3ish months of the game, as everyone who has the items crafted already does and cannot pass them on. There's no circulation outside of the 'service' crafts such as enchanting where new items are constantly requiring new upgrades.

The suggestion of making gear available from NPCs seems good for lower levels perhaps, a decent way of removing some gil from the economy (5x is a bit steep) whilst pushing people to buy from players (although is that likely to change anything? Most people use the wards to buy everything anyway).
Given the state of gil at the moment, it might not actually be that hard to generate enough to be 5x the crafted value of an item, so introducing later items to NPCs might undervalue them in the long-run

I think they did take a stab at removing items from circulation, in both the way some items get upgraded and the fact that items that are not in "Mint" condition can not be sold.

But here we are facing over saturation and this gets compounded every time any one throws up there hands and says "F it i'm out". How ever i do not think that adding a super hq teir is the way to go about this. Again its another market that will suffer the same exact fate. while it might help in the short term in the long run its just not sustainable in fact it could very well have very negative ramifications on the market as a whole.

Like others said the solution to this problem is to take items out of circulation with out starting the whole mess over again. Now what if instead of taking 8 items out of circulation to create one, you took the 8 items out and were rewarded for doing so by gaining guild marks or faction credits, anima, guardian's favor, or a whole host of other things. Yes i realise that is not a perfect solution either.

As I stated in an earlier post:

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Originally Posted by Awesome Guy

I'm not saying my idea is foolproof (it's not). But it does address the main issues:

Low quality gear and mats need to leave the economy.
Combat/Gatherers need a constant income stream.
Let people make progress and not have to play roulette to get ahead.

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These are the 3 main problems in the system. I've highlighted them a few times - my suggestion was just a stab at an idea to fix those problems, there are plenty of others. The solution that is needed is one that addresses all of those 3, not just one or two of them.

There is really only one problem with crafting. We have a lot of materials and we need long long hours of spamming one synthesis to skill up crafting. The results are:

1. Garbage in inventory (every single mob drops like 3-4 different items + HQ versions, and they drop A LOT + rewards from leves).
2. Drops from monsters/gathering are worthless since theyre very common.
3. Crafters use A LOT of materials (spending BORING in game hours) crafting A LOT of items.
4. A LOT of crafted items means they are worthless items.

If, there was no item rewards from leves, drops from monsters/gathering were quite rare, and DoH SP/rank was much much lower, it would result in:

1. No such a garbage in inventory/retainers.
2. Rare drops means more valuable drops.
3. Crafters use much much less materials during skillup, spending much less time mashing STANDARD SYNTHESIS, and make much less items.
4. Less items = more valuable crafted items (even NQ).

Crafters still wouldnt rank up fast, because there woudnt be enough materials to skillup fast. And with demand much higher than supply, materials would be worth farming.

Currently in FFXIV one Goldsmith skilling on silver needles would make like 2 needles per every person on the server and still he would be getting decent skillups on that synthesis. This is crazy. How do you expect crafted items to be valuable?

Easy to make items like the silver needle will never be valuable. If that needle required a rare mat sure it would become valuable but then no one would skill up on that. People will always exploit the cheapest and easiest recipes to skill up on.

I agree with some of what you say however, it's a similar idea to what I push where each item that is designed to be valuable includes one rare mat. Not every item or mat needs to be valuable and rare and I believe craft SP is too low not too high. It should be difficult to take a craft to the cap.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

Easy to make items like the silver needle will never be valuable. If that needle required a rare mat sure it would become valuable but then no one would skill up on that. People will always exploit the cheapest and easiest recipes to skill up on.

I agree with some of what you say however, it's a similar idea to what I push where each item that is designed to be valuable includes one rare mat. Not every item or mat needs to be valuable and rare and I believe craft SP is too low not too high. It should be difficult to take a craft to the cap.

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Needles are one of the exceptions to the general rule, though.

When you compare needles to something like a Jade Hora, though, you can see the difference. NQ Horas aren't very expensive because people have to make 10-15 of them to get a +2/+3 version. Include the fact that pugilists aren't THAT popular and you can see the problem with excess items flooding the market.

SE, where is the solution on this?

This happens in every MMO, it's a by product of people wanting the best items and flooding the market to make them.

You cannot avoid it and never will unless there is influx of demand, as weapons do not break they will always be available..

Today there are 200 +1 bows
Tomorrow there are 300 +1 bows
Next Week 3000 +1 bows..

To bad there are only 2000 players so the demand for this is now worthless..



EDIT: What about making the repair materials cost a working bow..
NQ bow can use a normal item (say crab shell)
+1 requires 1 NQ bow
+2 requires 2 NQ bows
+3 requires 3 NQ bows

Silly idea but this would reduce your so called flooding.. Although it wont fix the prices I imagine they would stay low.

Real life economis mean that if you have a house for every person there would be no housing market.

Think of it this way. You have say...500 crafter onry players in the game and only 100 battle classes in the game. If those 500 crafters are trying to get those 100 people to buy their stuff, the price is going to come down. Supply vs demand. There is too much supply and not near enough demand. Someone pumping out Crab Bows isn't going to sell them if someone is selling for just 1 gil cheaper.

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Originally Posted by Haru

This happens in every MMO, it's a by product of people wanting the best items and flooding the market to make them.

You cannot avoid it and never will unless there is influx of demand, as weapons do not break they will always be available..

Today there are 200 +1 bows
Tomorrow there are 300 +1 bows
Next Week 3000 +1 bows..

To bad there are only 2000 players so the demand for this is now worthless..



EDIT: What about making the repair materials cost a working bow..
NQ bow can use a normal item (say crab shell)
+1 requires 1 NQ bow
+2 requires 2 NQ bows
+3 requires 3 NQ bows

Silly idea but this would reduce your so called flooding.. Although it wont fix the prices I imagine they would stay low.

Real life economis mean that if you have a house for every person there would be no housing market.

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It's a novel idea! I never call an idea silly, because often the "silly" ideas serve as the basis for other ideas.

Two issues I see with your proposed system:
1) You would be making the repair material a non-stacking item. I think this would further kill a lot of peoples inventories. Requiring three inventory slots worth of items (i.e. 3 NQ bows) to perform one repair might result in some foaming at the mouth. :p
2) These bows would STILL be created faster than used for repairing. To balance the supply / consumption, I think that items would have to degrade much more quickly then they do now -- and SE already (a) reduced durability drop rate (b) changed damaged % to 35% from 50%.

This is the same reason why having items degrade and be destroyed to remove them from the game won't work. Items just can't degrade fast enough to balance the supply. One crafter can easily turn out 6 bows in one hour (counting time spent making subcomponents). To balance this, 6 bows would have to degrade to the point of breaking in that same hour. I think this would cause people to riot in the streets :(

Ultimately, some other form of excess item removal has to be introduced. Currently the options are (a) destroy (b) sell to NPC.

Realistic (to my mind) options that I've seen floated include (a) de-synthesis (b) using items to create materia.

De-synthesis creates another source of materials flowing into the system, and so would have to be balanced against gathering and combat drops, making it tricker.

My current best hope is for Materia-creation. Something along the lines of:
Item A + Item B + ... + Item X + Gathered Catalyst ~> Materia
Could use multiple of the same item, of various combinations of items. Depending on the items used, the type of Materia created is different.

Even this system will saturate eventually, once all the Materia that people want has been created, unless there is a form of consumable materia, thus creating continual demand for new Materia. Perhaps special-ability Materia like a summon spell is consumed upon use, while other forms aren't, or something along those lines.

mad???????