after the lack of tank we have lack of healers now

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Originally Posted by winsock

IMO:
It's more than that.

On the dps side, SE simplified already simple rotations and removed stance dancing. This makes it difficult to feel 'skilled'. I've tried to make 'skilled' plays other ways. For example, maybe I don't heal someone immediately so that I can utilize a reduced CD from the lily system and continue to dps. But then a PLD or RDM heals the target before my CD is ready...

On the healing side, the healers feel less important. As mentioned, PLD/RDM may heal something messing with a plan you made in advance, but it doesn't stop there. Take esuna as a role skill only to have a non-healer remove a condition. Hit swiftcast for a res only to have a RDM insta-cast, etc.

It just doesn't feel as rewarding to play.

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Yeah i know Final Fantasy 14 was known for the pretty hard combo, positioning and rotation system.

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Originally Posted by Serilda

The person whose response you originally responded to was specifically saying SCH is bad right now, and I would say they are correct

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I don't play SCH enough to grasp all the changes that were made. What I see frequently is how their damage output was nerfed with the fusion of DoTs and the change on Bane. Apart from their DPS, were they changed that much ?

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Originally Posted by Serilda

I'm not surprised if a lot of SCHs are on their SMNs at the moment.

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Come one...they can summon freaking Bahamut ! Who can compete with that ?! :p

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Originally Posted by Serilda

but don't criticise people for focusing on DPSing when there's legitimately nothing else to do most of the time other than sleeping at the keyboard or fishing for lilies you don't really need. It's a design problem more than a player problem.

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But, like I said when I mentionned tanks, it won't change the fact that you'll be rewarded by higher DPS if you play well...but when compared to other healers. That fact that numbers were reduced doesn't change that. You shouldn't compare your damage output with real DPS to judge if you're good or bad.

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Originally Posted by winsock

This makes it difficult to feel 'skilled'. I've tried to make 'skilled' plays other ways.

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Yet, you'll still have some healers idling instead of casting damage spells. On the topic of tanks, which I know a lot more than healers, it wasn't rare to run into PLD that only spam RoH in 3.x. You don't need stance dancing to find a skill gap.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Hit swiftcast for a res only to have a RDM insta-cast, etc.

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You can't judge your value on the chance that a RDM might be in your party. Right, it's brand new, so lot of people try it. It's far too early to judge who will keep playing it.

In the end, we're on a transition time. Numbers are changed, the dynamic is different, and the content is still new to judge how important one particular job is. People need to put HW behind them, and relearn the meta.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

People need to put HW behind them, and relearn the meta.

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The reason I have not queued expert roulette on healer thus far is because I do not find the new healer meta fun. No amount of learning will change that.

What happened to SCH? Did they remove the fairy or something? I can see why WHMs are upset, they've been upset since Heavensward really, but what happened to SCH? I haven't tried it yet or anything.

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Originally Posted by Bradach

What's happenning with healers ?

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Maybe they're stuck in MSQ battles with that compared to other classes low dmg.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I don't play SCH enough to grasp all the changes that were made. What I see frequently is how their damage output was nerf wuth the fusion of DoTs and the nerf on Bane. Apart from their DPS, were they changed that much ?

Come one...they can summon freaking Bahamut ! Who can compete with that ?! :p

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Haha, well quite a few SMNs are unhappy about that, but yeah ;)

In the case of SCHs, they have a bunch of really interesting mechanics designed to work together in various ways that have all been sort of jumbled up in the new system in a way that cannot be fixed without some rebalancing. E4E got removed and adjusted, which makes DT even more niche than ever. Their mana efficiency was reduced as a band aid purely so that taking Lucid Dreaming was a desirable cross-role action, which made their core gameplay design feel tacked-on. The fairy mechanics are still weirdly clunky (interface/AI/hotbar-wise and also usability-wise - if Dissipate resummoned the fairy after a time it would be used a lot more, for example, an easy fix). When there is legitimately nothing to do because the content is easy (it happens), they're sorely lacking in AoE options to fill the time, problems WHM and AST don't experience. I don't care how much actual damage healers do in numbers - that's for SE to balance - but not having anything productive to do at all is just plain boring. I actually agree SCHs needed a nerf before because it was silly to spend entire dungeons DPSing and outsourcing your main role to an AI companion. They didn't need nerfs in almost every department simultaneously though along with clunky extra hoops to jump through. That's just demoralising.

I agree a little with the complaints mentioned before about RDM/PLDs overlapping with mechanics and lily-stealing in an attempt to be helpful; they've done a rather comprehensive job of giving out optional support abilities to pretty much everyone else but healers, who just got the same stuff they already had. I just really crave some flexible capabilities to make me feel as useful, other than blowing everything up with Holy (which is fun in its own right, don't get me wrong).

Not complaining about AST though. It already comes with a fun minigame you can play between DPSing/healing in the form of card management, which fully satisfies my support and engagement yearnings. That's why I'm still taking my AST up via Free Company activities.

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Originally Posted by winsock

The reason I have not queued expert roulette on healer thus far is because I do not find the new healer meta fun.

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Again, I don't play healer myself, so I don't fully understand all the changes...what did really change for healers between 3.56 and 4.0 ?

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Originally Posted by Vexander

What happened to SCH? Did they remove the fairy or something? I can see why WHMs are upset, they've been upset since Heavensward really, but what happened to SCH? I haven't tried it yet or anything.

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Potency nerf to Embrace (Fairy Heal), Fey Illumination (Eos heal buff)
General nerfs to Aetherflow (Mana Sustain down)
Mana Cost Nerfs to Adloqium (Costs way more)
Damage nerfs to Bane (Huge AoE DPS Loss)
Removal off Bio, Blizzard 2 and Miasma 2 (ST AND AoE Potency losses)

On a personal note:

Clunky mostly worthless skill (Atherpact - The fairy takes ages to respond and it barely matches two mobs in terms of healing)
General power of AST (Why play SCH when AST is busted?)

Just going to put it out there. Have you ever done MSQ as a healer. It's boring, you can do very little damage so fights take forever and you heal so well that you are never in any danger of losing. It's this battle of Attrition constantly. Real snooze fest, also combined with their weaker offensive abilities it takes to fight their way through story and to 70.

Doing side quests and MSQ as a whm can sometimes be an absolute chore because of how long it takes to kill a single monster. I sigh every time I get a kill x amount of enemies objective...

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

Potency nerf to Embrace (Fairy Heal), Fey Illumination (Eos heal buff)
General nerfs to Aetherflow (Mana Sustain down)
Mana Cost Nerfs to Adloqium (Costs way more)
Damage nerfs to Bane (Huge AoE DPS Loss)
Removal off Bio, Blizzard 2 and Miasma 2 (ST AND AoE Potency losses)

On a personal note:

Clunky mostly worthless skill (Atherpact - The fairy takes ages to respond and it barely matches two mobs in terms of healing)
General power of AST (Why play SCH when AST is busted?)

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Thanks for the explanation. Wasn't aware the fairies had been nerfed like that.

Just dinged 70 last night too late to q xperts. Loving having to actually heal and manage mana which I never had to do as an AST before. Not loving the snark about low dps time. I'll be queuing roulettes daily for the foreseeable future. But PUG a savage x? Yeah - no. I don't want to deal with your attitude about how bad 2/3 of healers are. BTW I won't wait for your vote kick because of my low dps time - got plenty to do for 30 minutes while you wait for another "bad" healer.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Again, I don't play healer myself, so I don't fully understand all the changes...what did really change for healers between 3.56 and 4.0 ?

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The factors that make WHM a less fun for me:
* Removal of stance dancing
* Oversimplied rotations
* Other jobs taking certain actions, esp when hps checks are so low to begin with. Ex: PLD/RDM heals, multiple classes with condition removal, res, etc. When these actions are taken by other classes, I can't take them, and there are few to begin with.

These changes make healer much less fun for me, so I've been playing PLD, which feels much more engaged.

When I'm on Scholar I've been having to warn tanks not to pull big in the 67-70 dungeons because I will absolutely run out of mp keeping them alive and it's never received well. Our new skills aren't good at all, 70 tether ability is basically unusable right now (very short range, takes forever to charge, if target moves out of range it loses charge instantly) and excognition would be a really cool skill if it didn't heal for an max of like 10k hp at best. So overall we get one new crit up dot, slashed dps, and the same toolkit from 60 but with lowered potency and upped mp cost. I kept at it because I wanted to finish MSQ without having to level another job but I can absolutely see other Scholar being discouraged to the point of switching to summoner or red mage because of this.

There's been a loud uproar over the changes on the Japanese healer forum too but I wouldn't expect SE to actually fix stuff until Omega drops at the soonest.

I've been happy with healing so far, especially with the removal of CS. I've had less downtime on healing, so it's more challenging to weave in damage.

I stopped healing df because I don't like the direction they took healers. Stance dancing was really the only thing that made the class just one notch above face roll. That cd could really screw you up lol.

I liked the feeling of old clerics. The icon let the tank know, "you might wanna mitigate more, Imma start throwing rocks for the next few gcds." Now, I dunno, it just feels off to me.

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Originally Posted by winsock

* Removal of stance dancing

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I think this is a good thing because now it's less risky to start DPSing, and many trainee healers probably feared that.

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Originally Posted by winsock

* Oversimplied rotations

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I get that, I'm sad for the loss of a third combo on DRK

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Originally Posted by winsock

* Other jobs taking certain actions, esp when hps checks are so low to begin with

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We don't have really high-tier content for now. Maybe raids will have really HP checks...I personally hope so.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

The icon let the tank know, "you might wanna mitigate more, Imma start throwing rocks for the next few gcds." Now, I dunno, it just feels off to me.

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Thing is, I'm not sure that was the intended purpose of Cleric Stance. For me, CS was a way of allowing healers to do solo content without falling asleep. And like Nintendo thought is was easier to entirely swap the game to make Link right handed in Twilight Princess, SE probably thought it was easier to swap INT and MND instead of calculating magic attack power directly on MND for healers.

Just get a red mage to heal :P https://youtu.be/jjHlJ2ISPpY

The MSQ complaints for Healer damage is valid. Right now, all the instanced fights are taking forever. Especially when we have one single target attack and one DoT.

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Originally Posted by Bradach

What's happenning with healers ?

can't find any healers to do ex trials, all pf looking for healers only!

healers have gone from the game ? if we have a huge lack of heals now how we gonna play the game ? x)

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Come on..you know the answer to that question...you're just over doing it a bit with the question.

You have people trying out new jobs / roles (myself for example I am taking up Warrior and Tanking and am having a blast with it but haven't reached EX trials yet. This weekend though..)

People are also leveling still, not everyone spammed the crap out of everything and rushed to 70. Some don't have the hours, some like to take their time. Me I'm the mixture of the two. I realize that if you go too hard and fast that you'll burn yourself out and be bored quick, and I also only have 2 - 3 hours every other night to play but i should be hitting level 70 this Saturday doing only a few fates / leveling roulette and MSQ.

As you see some are salty from their previous jobs and moved around. Some of these are valid complaints, others are complaints from people that have old people mentality "I don't like change!" No we're not talking about your damn lily proc so quit it.

After WAR I plan to take up WHM to see what all the naggy fuss is about. I took WAR as my tank b/c I originally wanted to do PLD but people nagged about WAR being crap so I took it up. So far, I haven't had any problems finishing roulettes / dungeons in a decent time. "What was your time?" I don't know man, I'm not going to compare a 10:40 minute run to a 11:21 minute run and scream my head off that it's using up too much of my time. If your time is that valuable then you probably shouldn't be on this game in the first place.

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Originally Posted by crazedtoo

The MSQ complaints for Healer damage is valid. Right now, all the instanced fights are taking forever. Especially when we have one single target attack and one DoT.

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Being a war even in my DPS stance took a bit, I kept looking at the HP of the guy and my timer going "Do i do this for another 12 min?" That was probably the only time I've questioned what was going on due to time, other than that in other instances and roulettes..no real time problem. So I can imagine how it is for a healer.

So I been a healer way before 3.0 and got to say it's boring as hell having only one dd and one dot it's painful to solo. I bet there a few more healers that feel the same I do. Right now I been playing a dps for the story mode and my healer will be level in PvP. Sorry guys but will not be healing at all in this expansion only for my guildmates and friends.

Devs: dmg from healer is just a bonus
Playerbase: No, it is not
Devs nerf Healer dmg: Yes, it is

I think this is what happened.

Smaller percentage of pop plays healers & tanks. Endgame requires half as many of them as DDs. Supply & demand son.

If it weren't for the fact that my static still needed a healer I would be playing SAM full time.

didnt expect so much answers... so basicaly i understand the fact that some are in levelling and many don t want touch that anymore until se fix thatand others play with their fc only

thanks for answers and before a brawl begins with the famous healer dps subject this thread can be closed ?

sorry to have bother you with this thread ^^''

I'm healing at 70, and I don't find it boring at all. The higher incoming damage means I have less opportunity to dps (which I don't mind) though I do dps when I can. My only real disappointments are:

a) Plenary Indulgence/Confession sucks and isn't something I can use in any thoughtful manner due to the rng of confession. Sometimes if I see a stack or two is on someone I hit the button. Sometimes it actually heals someone... and sometimes the confession stack falls off right as I go to hit it... or they aren't close enough for PI to hit them since its a pbaoe... or they aren't actually hurt so the heal is wasted. Plenary Indulgence is as huge a disappointment as I expected it would be from when i first saw the skill. So all those naysayers saying "you're not 70 yet!" or "you haven't played with it yet!", yea you can all go pound salt cause I was right. Plenary Indulgence SUCKS.

b) No group utility/buff. Not having any way to buff the party in some meaningful way (i.e. Balance, Strategem, etc) is a real let down. I am hoping in the next patch they either make Presence of Mind affect the whole party or make Thin Air affect the whole party and reduce tp as well as mp costs. WHM needs some way to help the party besides just restoring HP.

Just get two RDM, a third DPS, and tank.

how long is everyone waiting on ques as a dps , I feel like ill never be a great dps just simply because the game doesn't afford an avenue to play them a decent amount because the ques are so bad

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

Pretty much this.

Healers are suddenly boring and feel less powerful and engaging than they did in Heavensward. 10 levels more feel like 10 levels less.

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Scholar looks like it was crippled, I was leveling Scholar through HW as an alt, but may go back to WHM which seems like it too got smacked about a bit by the dev team, just no where near as badly as Scholar who lost offensive skills, potency, mana regen potency and healing potency along with the nerfing of Pet healing to boot. Not sure what in the world the dev team were thinking, it's like they did all the nerfing part of the rebalance and forgot the upgrades that offest all the decreases in potency and capability in order bring SCH back up to par.

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Originally Posted by DGladius

Just get a red mage to heal :P https://youtu.be/jjHlJ2ISPpY

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Oh look, it's the new Arcanists...SE needs to recheck RM's healing capability even as a tank I am sick and tired of hearing ever so cocky RDMs blathering on about their healing prowess. If you want to heal, be a healer, otherwise kill stuff fast and keep your healing for solo content or emergencies.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

how long is everyone waiting on ques as a dps , I feel like ill never be a great dps just simply because the game doesn't afford an avenue to play them a decent amount because the ques are so bad

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Most of my friends/fc members are reporting around 1 hour queue times as dps. Then they queue with me and it pops instantly ^_^

Not gonna lie, I had planned on staying with Sch but after trying out Samurai.........yeeeaaa no.

A lot of this is due to everything in Stormblood still being fresh and everyone wanting to play RDM/SAM. This clogs up queues heavily on every end, even roulettes are becoming 30m+.

Due to healers and tanks being in short demand because of changes, I expect it to smooth out come Omega.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Oh look, it's the new Arcanists...SE needs to recheck RM's healing capability even as a tank I am sick and tired of hearing ever so cocky RDMs blathering on about their healing prowess. If you want to heal, be a healer, otherwise kill stuff fast and keep your healing for solo content or emergencies.

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And they had "Lifesteal" DRK tank, a PLD who could heal and help mitigate, and a RDM with some decent heals.
Not that impressed, almost died at the very beginning anyways until PLD used Clemency lol.
Do this with 1 tank and 3 DPS and 1 being a RDM, then I'll be surprised. :p

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

how long is everyone waiting on ques as a dps , I feel like ill never be a great dps just simply because the game doesn't afford an avenue to play them a decent amount because the ques are so bad

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Tonight I was going for like 45+ mins.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Oh look, it's the new Arcanists...SE needs to recheck RM's healing capability even as a tank I am sick and tired of hearing ever so cocky RDMs blathering on about their healing prowess. If you want to heal, be a healer, otherwise kill stuff fast and keep your healing for solo content or emergencies.

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I sure hope not. If they're not going to leave RDM's healing they should have just not even introduced the job.

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Originally Posted by Mikhaill

And they had "Lifesteal" DRK tank, a PLD who could heal and help mitigate, and a RDM with some decent heals.
Not that impressed, almost died at the very beginning anyways until PLD used Clemency lol.
Do this with 1 tank and 3 DPS and 1 being a RDM, then I'll be surprised. :p

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The RDM was clearly not that good. I don't think they even know how to play the job properly.

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

The expansion is still fresh. A lot of people are still leveling up to 70 at the moment.

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The other thing is, confidence in healing is a lot more difficult than confidence in other roles. At most Tanks are just knowing what to watch out for and paying attention if swapping is needed. With DPS, they have to worry about doing enough damage and just being mindful of mechanics.

Healers on the otherhand are responsible for keeping everyone alive, reacting to those who make mistakes and following their own mechanics that they have to be mindful of all while making sure their main target the tanks stay alive. It's definitely understandable why we see less healers because it's a lot of responsibility to deal with.

If you guys think that pve healing is a bit bad atm, you should see pvp healing. It's a hot mess, and feels clunky and terrible. I literally only have 3 healing abilities on my ast (4 if you count lb) in pvp, and they don't include an aoe heal. :/ I AM glad that I trained up all 3 healing classes and I have a fair amount of experience in all. I can just switch to whichever one hasn't been killed.

I'll always main white mage, but I have a job and a commute to get to said job, so I don't have a lot of time to play in general. On top of that, I like to take things slow and enjoy the ride, so yeah, levelling is slow :)

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

If you guys think that pve healing is a bit bad atm, you should see pvp healing. It's a hot mess, and feels clunky and terrible. I literally only have 3 healing abilities on my ast (4 if you count lb) in pvp, and they don't include an aoe heal. :/ I AM glad that I trained up all 3 healing classes and I have a fair amount of experience in all. I can just switch to whichever one hasn't been killed.

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i dunno what wrong you're doing, but ast in pvp is awesome. every heal you make grants you swiftcast for the next heal- or damaging ability(which grants slow) you use, also nice utilities to add, but ok, complaining is free, accepting change and getting better is work.