[dev1206] The effects of Protect and Shell have been made mutually exclusive

Please re-name protect to barrier or wall, if protect is going to be protect and shell in one.

You thought the explanation was confusing before, but consider this:

Magic Defense is a non-existent stat. It hasn't existed since the beginning of 1.19. Since then, Shell has increased all Elemental Resistances... (I'm not here to help. I just wanted to fan the flames a bit... what else is a patch-note beta tester to do?)

This topic isn't going to make any real headway until the patch is out and people can see for themselves what it means, or until the devs clarify what it is they meant for sure. Misinformation due to translation and localization has been a thorn in the community's side since day one. Anything except for concrete confirmation is conjecture and not helping the conversation.

On that note, to anyone who's biggest complaint in here is that it doesn't "feel" like protect anymore, or that you want them to change the name, though I hate to phrase anything like this, WAHHH!

They can name whatever they want whatever they want, and your small fractions of opinion on it shouldn't and won't hold any sway on the dev team to alter it, especially at this stage, where they shouldn't be focused on trivialities. Just *gasp* relearn what protect means, and get used to the idea of change. There's plenty more in store.

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Originally Posted by TinnySnips

You thought the explanation was confusing before, but consider this:

Magic Defense is a non-existent stat. It hasn't existed since the beginning of 1.19. Since then, Shell has increased all Elemental Resistances... (I'm not here to help. I just wanted to fan the flames a bit... what else is a patch-note beta tester to do?)

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I love that part right there Tin!!

the cat is amused =^.^=

I'm stoked because this brings us a new way to play. Yep, change is scary and it seems like Chicken Little runs around every time we get patch notes. If the changes are universally bad, Yoshida is good about compromising and will fix it. But if this apocalyptic thinking is all over some localization errors then "see you at patch".

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Originally Posted by TinnySnips

You thought the explanation was confusing before, but consider this:

Magic Defense is a non-existent stat. It hasn't existed since the beginning of 1.19. Since then, Shell has increased all Elemental Resistances... (I'm not here to help. I just wanted to fan the flames a bit... what else is a patch-note beta tester to do?)

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This is very true. All we have in way of mitigating magic attack damage is :

Piety

• Magic Evasion

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Originally Posted by Atomisk

Please re-name protect to barrier or wall, if protect is going to be protect and shell in one.

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bump for support

no reason to rename one spell to another when its been the same name throughout FF history

please rename this spell or Barrier or Wall
Protect has never once protected against magic.

I don't mind they are combining it at this time and I am going to have to agree with a rename, protect should be for physical and shell for magical defenses and the way it looks like this spell will work is both types of defense together.

because they never used one name for the other in the different FF games... just reading through this in a few games the normal protect spell was actually named barrier...

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/B..._%28Ability%29

and though wall would fit better... as seen in here...

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Wall_%28Ability%29

I don't mind if its named protect since at first it only does what protect does and until you get the trait it is only protect. Also if anyone takes this as a cross class ability it will only ever be protect...

the cat is bemused =-.-=

Afir, Aice, Alit, and Wall!

Ruse! Easy to dodge!

Forgive the FF1 reminiscing. FF names have changed over time. Where Pure became Antidote over to Poisona. Sometimes deliciously consolidated into Esuna. And Wall used to reduce magic damage, but then started reflecting spells and renamed Reflect. And Fast used to.only make you get more hits in one round of attacking. Then it became Haste where your turn came around faster instead of just more hits only.

I think some consolidation is ok.

Edit: Fog! That's what used to boost defense.

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Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba

Afir, Aice, Alit, and Wall!

Ruse! Easy to dodge!

Forgive the FF1 reminiscing. FF names have changed over time. Where Pure became Antidote over to Poisona. Sometimes deliciously consolidated into Esuna. And Wall used to reduce magic damage, but then started reflecting spells and renamed Reflect. And Fast used to.only make you get more hits in one round of attacking. Then it became Haste where your turn came around faster instead of just more hits only.

I think some consolidation is ok.

Edit: Fog! That's what used to boost defense.

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Ah yes lets not forget reflect... a good thing to read up on...

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/R..._%28Ability%29

sometimes called wall as you said.

erm... as for fog... http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Fog_%28Ability%29

and might as well as put in the link for the normal protect spell... pretty interesting right there at the top... http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/P..._%28Ability%29

Protect (プロテス, Purotesu), also known as Barrier, Fog, Armor, Shield, or Safe, is a recurring White Magic, and later in the series as a Green Magick, spell.

the cat is bemused =-.-=

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Originally Posted by Nakiamiie

I have a friend that fell in love with thaumaturge for the cone effect. I, too, was enjoying the different AoE. Cone being more offensively oriented while circle AoE defensive for party. It was combat dynamic, now it's being oversimplified again... they could just have shown the area of effect on the screen instead.

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I would actually argue that the cone shape was better for healing and casting buffs.

Like Firon suggested it would have been nice if they allowed both classes to toggle between the two types or maybe have different stances.

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Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba

Afir, Aice, Alit, and Wall!

Ruse! Easy to dodge!

Forgive the FF1 reminiscing. FF names have changed over time. Where Pure became Antidote over to Poisona. Sometimes deliciously consolidated into Esuna. And Wall used to reduce magic damage, but then started reflecting spells and renamed Reflect. And Fast used to.only make you get more hits in one round of attacking. Then it became Haste where your turn came around faster instead of just more hits only.

I think some consolidation is ok.

Edit: Fog! That's what used to boost defense.

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It's nice to see people that actually realize that Final Fantasy changes over time, it isn't the same game over and over. The people that claim that changes such as this are making it less of a Final Fantasy seem to be rather ignorant, and even though they claim to be the most hardcore of fans, they obviously haven't played many games in the series.

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Originally Posted by Nikita

It's nice to see people that actually realize that Final Fantasy changes over time, it isn't the same game over and over. The people that claim that changes such as this are making it less of a Final Fantasy seem to be rather ignorant, and even though they claim to be the most hardcore of fans, they obviously haven't played many games in the series.

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im wondering how many people consider FF MMOs to be cannon enough to be part of the changing process of things.
i mean sure things like naming has changed over time, but very modestly.
how long has poisona and esuna been around versus pure or antidote?
from FF7 onward, how much has the naming of spells and abilities happened? not saying i know because i wouldnt pay that much attention to them.
perhaps it would be better to call this spell something new or something that hasnt been used much in the series since its mechanic is very much its own.

I'm not happy about this change. I definitely had 'WTF' face when I read this one. :(

It would have been more interesting if Conjurer's basic melee attack was turned into casting a protect-barrier, and its second melee attack turned into casting a shell-barrier, each lasting five minutes but overriding each other.

There is still no reason for Conjurers to gain TP from its list of moves I see. That would have in essence decreased the number of slots required on the action bar in of itself, and still kept both protect and shell in game. As levels are gained one could turn into Wall, the other turn into Veil?

If need be, the mobs attacking the barrier could generate TP for the conjurer. It would also be more in line with Tanaka's apparent vision (i.e. CG intro + limsa opening cs)

Why would I want to beat on anything with my wand with only sub par weaponskills, and now I dont even have shell ; ;

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Originally Posted by Altanas

Why would I want to beat on anything with my wand with only sub par weaponskills, and now I dont even have shell ; ;

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You woulnd't, mage classes aren't supposed to melee thats what melee classes are for.

TP is a melee resource, MP is a magic resource.

Obviously you could argue that SE hace blended the lines a little with PGL skills, but elemental melee skills should require both MP and TP .

should of went the bio & dia route from ffxi where they cancel out, not the main buffs of the dang game. now casters gonna be more active casting shell & protect hoping they can keep up with cures and stuff @_@

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Originally Posted by indira

should of went the bio & dia route from ffxi where they cancel out, not the main buffs of the dang game. now casters gonna be more active casting shell & protect hoping they can keep up with cures and stuff @_@

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I guess you missed the part that shell is no longer a spell... at level 24 CNJ gets a trait the adds shell to protect.

the cat is bemused =-.-=

I'm just going to say... What's the point of having shell and protect at all, if you can always have both 100% of the time?

They might as well remove them from the game, as all they accomplish is making fancy effects before a boss.

I know this is hard for some people, but it introduces strategy and choice, the bane of noob existence I know. I for one welcome this change as it show the devs are clearly trying to improve the game, instead of listening to the mindless dithering.

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Originally Posted by Firon

What was con before this patch all i did was cast cure and the needed buffs <.<

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Then no offense, you were inept as anything more than such. I did buffs, healed, DoTs, Absorb, CC and pretty much anything I could with the spells I was given and those of Thm as well. LOL Maybe that's why to me, losing something else in an arsenal of spells is a bit saddening. I'll admit having the 2 stream lined is quaint and some what efficient, the loss of everything else, makes the job of Con boring and uneventful.

There was nothing like watching a DD or another member go down for w/e ever the reason would be; have another Con or Thm roll in to raise while I replaced that DD with magic rather than blade or fist. And as that DD revived and was back in battle, watching them re-pull aggro as I pounded the shit out of them with buffs and cures. Man, if you weren't gaming then and enjoying an old fashion ass whoppin', you sir/or madame, were missing out.

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Originally Posted by Geesus

Then no offense, you were inept as anything more than such. I did buffs, healed, DoTs, Absorb, CC and pretty much anything I could with the spells I was given and those of Thm as well. LOL Maybe that's why to me, losing something else in an arsenal of spells is a bit saddening. I'll admit having the 2 stream lined is quaint and some what efficient, the loss of everything else, makes the job of Con boring and uneventful.

There was nothing like watching a DD or another member go down for w/e ever the reason would be; have another Con or Thm roll in to raise while I replaced that DD with magic rather than blade or fist. And as that DD revived and was back in battle, watching them re-pull aggro as I pounded the shit out of them with buffs and cures. Man, if you weren't gaming then and enjoying an old fashion ass whoppin', you sir/or madame, were missing out.

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I do not think it will be boring or uneventful :P HI GEESUS!!! /wave /wave /wave /joy

Actually looking at it I like the way it is getting set up better... and it feels more in line with my fav job of all FF games... WHM!!

the cat is bemused =-.-=

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Originally Posted by Geesus

Then no offense, you were inept as anything more than such. I did buffs, healed, DoTs, Absorb, CC and pretty much anything I could with the spells I was given and those of Thm as well. LOL Maybe that's why to me, losing something else in an arsenal of spells is a bit saddening. I'll admit having the 2 stream lined is quaint and some what efficient, the loss of everything else, makes the job of Con boring and uneventful.

There was nothing like watching a DD or another member go down for w/e ever the reason would be; have another Con or Thm roll in to raise while I replaced that DD with magic rather than blade or fist. And as that DD revived and was back in battle, watching them re-pull aggro as I pounded the shit out of them with buffs and cures. Man, if you weren't gaming then and enjoying an old fashion ass whoppin', you sir/or madame, were missing out.

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Wait, your name is Geesus and you heal people?
(*Snort Snort Giggle*)

I don't get this, but on the other hand have Protect and Shell ever made a real difference? People can beat Ifrit in Santa suits for Christ's sake. Gear, materia, and enhancement spells are the opiate of the masses. Lol..

I really don't understand this change either...

Or what they did with the elemental spells... :confused:

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Originally Posted by NadienKirisame

I guess you missed the part that shell is no longer a spell... at level 24 CNJ gets a trait the adds shell to protect.

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In which case it would make no sense to say that they cancel each other, don't you think? The description of the lv. 24 trait does NOT include the word Shell.

The mention of the facts that a) both status effects won't coexist and b) that one spell will override the other, the description of Protect, and, finally, that of the Enhanced Protect trait at lv. 24 are the only instances in which any of these issues are mentioned in the notes. And they are evidently not enough for us to surmise what's going on...

R

Good point. How can it override shell if shell does not exist? Can we get a dev response please? :)

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I would actually argue that the cone shape was better for healing and casting buffs.

Like Firon suggested it would have been nice if they allowed both classes to toggle between the two types or maybe have different stances.

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That would add a whole slew of considerations you need to make for balancing spells. By Square dictating whether a spell can be a Cone or Circle-type, they don't have to worry as much about balancing a spell. By allowing the player to actually make a spell do both, although it's better for casters (more flexibility and strategy), it makes balancing the spell tougher because now you have to worry about how effective the spell would be in a cone vs a circle, and we all know that Square has some serious problems properly balancing classes compared to other companies - I don't want to add yet another dimension that Square may screw up on, as much as I would LOVE the better strategy it would give us if we had the option of selecting between the two AoE types.

on french patchnote it doesn't say that is overwriting.

Lv.6
Action
Bouclier (Shield)
La défense de la cible et des équipiers alentour augmente. (defense of party's member are enhanced)
Lancement : 3 secondes / Réutilisation : 30 secondes / Durée : 300 secondes (casting: 3s, reuse: 30s, stay: 300s)

Lv.24
Trait
Bouclier amélioré (shield enhanced)
La défense magique est également augmentée avec Bouclier. (magic defense is also boost with protect)

I don't understand the confusion. How should a Trait override an Action? Protect is the spell and you'll get a Trait that enhances the effect of Protect with magical defense boost.

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Originally Posted by Neptune

I don't get this, but on the other hand have Protect and Shell ever made a real difference? People can beat Ifrit in Santa suits for Christ's sake. Gear, materia, and enhancement spells are the opiate of the masses. Lol..

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They do and gear, materia etc. do as well. You are able to kill Ifrit without getting a hit if you are a good player.

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Originally Posted by indira

should of went the bio & dia route from ffxi where they cancel out, not the main buffs of the dang game. now casters gonna be more active casting shell & protect hoping they can keep up with cures and stuff @_@

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/nod I guess that's what developers want us to do.
They saw mages are too bored with just cures, so throw something else for us to do.
Yoshi-P wants a more skillful play anyway. It might be fun.

Or or or... they are setting something up for the future WHM. To prove it's the ultimate cure/support machine!

The avg person in this thread represents some of the worst that the FF community has to offer. Threads like this are why I try to avoid the forums here. FFS Shell is a trait so that the CON/WHM have an identity any class can use protect and you need a 24+ CON/WHM to get access to the effects of shell. FF has no set rules on what the names of their spells are and with the removal of magic defense we now have NO NEED FOR A TRUE SHELL the trait should be renamed to "ENHANCES ELEMENTAL RESISTANCE" since this is what is really happening but oh noez the forum is gonna explode into flames if the idea that shell is no more.

The trait should say "Protect now adds a barspell status for all elements"

What people SHOULD be complaining about; is the continued streamlining of the game.
First they combined enfeebles to nukes and weapon skills, now the buffs are just one spell.
Soon we will have haste combined with protect/shell and finally, we will be able to cast Ultima: Inflicts massive non-elemental damage to entire zone. Poisons, Slows, Blinds enemy and casts Wall and Haste on your entire party. Five second cool down.

lucifer, why should we be upset about streamlining?

Every class is going to be exactly the same.
All everyone is going to do is spam skills. Remember when skill-chains were used in FFXI? Hahaha.
Anyway, it's the same thing all over again. I'm surprised they didn't add protect to some weapon skill.

Don't bring up the dumb argument "What do you do now, hurrdurr" No. This isn't about now, this is about what the game is going to become. The game now is pure trash.

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Originally Posted by Lucifer

Every class is going to be exactly the same.
All everyone is going to do is spam skills. Remember when skill-chains were used in FFXI? Hahaha.
Anyway, it's the same thing all over again. I'm surprised they didn't add protect to some weapon skill.

Don't bring up the dumb argument "What do you do now, hurrdurr" No. This isn't about now, this is about what the game is going to become. The game now is pure trash.

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And you use the same crystal ball to deduce this that was used to tell us CON=BLM and THM=WHM right.

You appear slighty unintelligent to continue to play they game and swarm the forums of said game if you truely believe said game is "trash". Not to mention al the false assumptions you make.

I could see how streemlining what he have now makes way for new classes to come in. Especially since the devs themselves have asked us our opinion on new classes.

I will bring up the arguement all i chose my friend, just because you deem it dumb, does not make it so. Dumb to me is playing a game and trolling its forums all day, while claiming its such trash it is not worthy of me, now thats dumb.

rofl Lucifer that post was great. The ultima spell ftw.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

And you use the same crystal ball to deduce this that was used to tell us CON=BLM and THM=WHM right.

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Nice job there. Where have I seen that before...

I tried to decipher what you were saying but...

/sigh.... think of it more that you get normal protect at 6, then at 24 your protect gets the added bonus of shell's properties. You aren't really losing anything, just gaining a better protect at 24 and not having to cast a second spell.

The only "overwriting" that happens is if a level 24 conjurer casts protect on you, its better than the less effective protect cast on you by a conjurer level 23 or lower. I could be wrong, but in FFXI, I'm pretty sure if someone cast protect II on you, then someone a second later cast protect on you, the last one cast would overwrite whatever version you had on you previously. This is no different... nothing to really be upset about.

Lvl 6 Action Protect Increases the defense of all party members within range of the target.
Cast Time: 3sec. / Recast Time: 30sec. / Duration: 300sec.

Lvl 24 Trait Enhanced Protect Increases magic defense gained from Protect.