Objection to the new adjustment for PGL, they gonna make this class useless in PT.

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Originally Posted by Wevlum

What is this...I don't even.

All classes currently have debuff skills according to this class redesign so lets knock that one on the head (p.s. they all have debuffs currently too).

There are other DD jobs with tanking skills as well (MRD) that doesnt make them a second rate DD now does it?

My actual point was, compared to what we have currently *anything* would have been an improvement but if you read the rest of my post I actually described what I liked about the new PGL. PGL appears to be a frontline elemental attacker that can change stance depending on the situation, that appears to be its role. Kick+haste+fire = punch the jesus out of the enemy, oh I pulled too much hate, switch to earth or wind stance.

It looks great and I can't wait to try it out. If the MP restore skills and the MP consumed are both reasonable then the MP element will just add more strategy/skill in how we play our class.

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im not a tank but your actually wrong.
THM/BLM does not have any debuffs and yes MRD is a second rate DD lol i can vouch for those two at least

if your not top DD then your second rate... no?

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Originally Posted by Dreadnought

im not a tank but your actually wrong.
THM/BLM does not have any debuffs and yes MRD is a second rate DD lol i can vouch for those two at least

if your not top DD then your second rate... no?

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. . . THM has Sleep, Bind, Heavy, and Stun, as well as a few dots. How are those not debuffs?

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

. . . THM has Sleep, Bind, Heavy, and Stun, as well as a few dots. How are those not debuffs?

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are we talking about right now or after 1.20? sorry if i didnt read far back enough.
once 1.20 hits the only Dot will be a by chance, the only stun will also be a by chance through a combo, and other than that we have sleep.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnought

are we talking about right now or after 1.20? sorry if i didnt read far back enough.
once 1.20 hits the only Dot will be a by chance, the only stun will also be a by chance through a combo, and other than that we have sleep.

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That's 1.20. My bad on not being clearer.

When it come to MMO, and PT recruitment, people only ask for the best in certain role.

MRD and GLA is likely to steal their spot for safety tank or speed run tank as I posted in first post. it is same as what happen currently.

I can't see any best role for PGL yet. if compare as DD, people will fill as many LNC as they could.

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Originally Posted by Alise

When it come to MMO, and PT recruitment, people only ask for the best in certain role.

MRD and GLA is likely to steal their spot for safety tank or speed run tank as I posted in first post. it is same as what happen currently.

I can't see any best role for PGL yet. if compare as DD, people will fill as many LNC as they could.

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In response to this, I shall simply quote what I posted earlier that you didn't seem to read.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

Everyone is talking about them in one mob fight scenarios. This delves into the tanking argument as well. People are trying to say "Is GLA better than MRD for tanking? Will PLD be better than WAR for tanking?"

The argument is irrelevant as they are designed for two different types of tanking. MRD/WAR for multiple mobs, GLA/PLD for single mobs. The argument is similar for PGL.

In a single, one target fight, you may want a LNC over a PGL because chances are the PGL may not have a chance to use it's heavy evasion required abilties.

But if you're fighting multiple targets, the PGL could easliy take the attention of one and tank it while DD'ing the main mob (in an EXP party) or simple fighting it one on one (like trash mobs in a boss fight.).

The PGL/MNK could then use the evasion from the mob that it's tanking in order to use the evasion abilities it has on the main target, even if the main target isn't attacking the PGL/MNK.

This opens up ideal set ups, which I know people don't particularly like, but it does make most classes useful.

I'm Pro-PLD but even I will admit that MRD/WAR will most likely be best for multiple target situations. Just as I'm sure many LNC/DRG would admit that their survivability doesn't really allow them to perform as well in multi-target situations compared to single target engagments, making PGL more ideal.

TL;DR version:

One Target:
GLA/PLD
LNC/DRG

Multiple Targets:
MRD/WAR
PGL/MNK

Use the best job suited to how many mobs you plan on fighting.

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I OBJECT TO CONCEPTS I HAVE NOT SEEN IN PRACTICE.

I realize you're concerned, but there is a LOT of time for tweaking and balancing. The class now has an identity. Try it out, it may be fun.

As far as parties go, not everyone is an elitist. And just because a player is playing Class X doesn't mean they know the class well enough to outdo a person of Class Y who DOES know what they are doing.

I know this is dumb to say on these boards, but lets give things a chance before we get all huffy. Seriously.

didn't read the whole thread, and I have PGL lv20. I'm pretty sure PGL will excel in solo play while MNK will excel in party.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

In response to this, I shall simply quote what I posted earlier that you didn't seem to read.

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How much do you actually play this game? Since last year Oct 2010, PGL never once be needed. No matter in small content or big content.

"Hey, BUffalo hunting PT, one spot for GLA please" (back in December)
"Dodore small hunting group, we need THM" (could even solo, back in March)
"Into the Dark, we still need 3-4 more ARC please" (back in June)
"Ifrit PT, any LNC wanna join? 4-5 spots" (now)
"Stronghold key farming PT, please MRD and CNJ only" (now)

Yes, every classes except PGL..

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Originally Posted by Alise

How much do you actually play this game? Since last year Oct 2010, PGL never once be needed. No matter in small content or big content.

"Hey, BUffalo hunting PT, one spot for GLA please" (back in December)
"Dodore small hunting group, we need THM" (could even solo, back in March)
"Into the Dark, we still need 3-4 more ARC please" (back in June)
"Ifrit PT, any LNC wanna join? 4-5 spots" (now)
"Stronghold key farming PT, please MRD and CNJ only" (now)

Yes, every classes except PGL..

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You didn't need GLA for Buffalo (tanked him on my PGL)
You didn't need THM for Dodore (tanked him on my PGL)
You didn't need even 3 ARCs for Batraal (none of my groups went above 3, and that's when I changed over to ARC)
You don't need more than 3 LNCs for Ifrit (none of my groups have gone above 3, and I'm running PGL again)
You don't need a full party of MRD and CNJ to farm keys, either (every group I've seen has had other classes)

No single class was ever "needed" until CNJ became the only real healer.

Defensive tank >>>> Offensive tank
PLD/GLA MRD/WAR PGL/MNK

if pgl can survive tanking (depends on mob/skill of player) , then pgl will be a better tank than mrd

people don't take pgl as tank for ifrit because he spams a frontal cone attack that can't be evaded with featherfoot/diversion.

DOOOOOOMMMMMM GLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMM

Dark Matter ruined the game.

And now it'll happen AGAIN

Non-chocobo mounts, now that will be the final nail in the nail in the coffin.

At least until IMMERSION BREAKING non FINAL FANTASY TRADITION FEELING jumping.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

At least until IMMERSION BREAKING non FINAL FANTASY TRADITION FEELING jumping.

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thread meter already ruined the game. HURR DURR !

Yoshida Team has a guy which likes Pugilist very much, and he wishes for Pugilist to be the badass.
We didn't try 1.20 out yet, so wait your time before judging spaghetti you've never cooked.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnought

im not a tank but your actually wrong.
THM/BLM does not have any debuffs and yes MRD is a second rate DD lol i can vouch for those two at least

if your not top DD then your second rate... no?

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Second rate DD doesn't mean second place DD. Second rate DD implies you are inadequette at performing the role e.g. a second rate performer is someone who performs poorly not someone who came second place in a performing competition.
If you are actually using the term second rate correctly though and you stand by your observation you're suggesting MRD and PGL are going to be less powerful than LNC without actually seeing the numbers involved.

Also THM/BLM do have debuffs actually;
THM action 3; Deals ice damage to target. Chance to inflict Heavy.
THM action 4; Deals ice damage to all enemies within range. Chance to inflict Bind.
THM action 9; Deals lightning damage to target. Chance to inflict Stun.
BLM action 2; Puts all enemies within range of the target to sleep.
BLM action 3; Deals fire damage to all enemies within range. Chance to inflict DoT effect.
And lastly kind of but not really a debuff, BLM action 4; Deals ice damage to target and reduces enmity.

Those look like debuffs to me.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

You didn't need GLA for Buffalo (tanked him on my PGL)
You didn't need THM for Dodore (tanked him on my PGL)
You didn't need even 3 ARCs for Batraal (none of my groups went above 3, and that's when I changed over to ARC)
You don't need more than 3 LNCs for Ifrit (none of my groups have gone above 3, and I'm running PGL again)
You don't need a full party of MRD and CNJ to farm keys, either (every group I've seen has had other classes)

No single class was ever "needed" until CNJ became the only real healer.

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Okay, should I change the word "need" into "demand"?
That is what community want, and that is the most effective way.

Although the last part, a group of MRD is really need in order to win SH Amajaa gold chest, and Natalan gold chest with one PT, unless you could prove me otherwise, (with vid)

MMO community demand :"easiest to win", "fastest to gain", and "least to share".
Current PGL doesn't bring any of these. only waste spot in PT.

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Originally Posted by Asaren

You should put a head up "Only PGL R50 vote please"
because I can see that everybody who vote disagree in this thread clearly not plan to play PGL, or not like PGl to begin with.

Seriously.any PGL fan would not like this change at all.

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HAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAAHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHA
wait wait, let me hahahahahahahhahahaha
you're trying to tell me that only 17 level 50 PGL that actually play the class agree, and that everyone else that disagreed (45 and counting) must all be noobs or people that came in and voted but don't play the class?

The only thing sillier than that statement is that someone actually agreed with you. Though it could have been my friend, he likes to support the losing side lol.

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Originally Posted by Teknoman

As long as they make elemental weaknesses more apparent, Pugilist/Monk sounds like it'll be a great, fast elemental melee attacker.

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Thats what i'm banking on as well. It sounds like we can get in there and do some real bursty elemental damage, I am concerned how MP management will go, but I guess we'll see.

As for my response to this thread, I personally think the changes will be good.
The original design plan for pugilist was to have stances which were never implemented.
This lack of stances made this jack-of-all master of none, by adding the stances they are correcting this.
We don't yet know the tick cost or what the mp return will be on the weapon skill or if feather foots return will be adjusted.

To make assumptions on the class sucking because of mp cost at this point is premature.
If the costs are too high I'm sure we will all be back here complaining about it.


As for the Ifrit fight, marauder, lancer, and pugilist can all hit about the same damage on the fight.
The only reason that lancer is preferred is due to three things. First, lancer can generate TP faster.
Lancer also only has a ten second cool down on it's 2000+ TP attack. Lastly, they can stand out of
range of the sear that tears other melee apart. The last one is the one that really makes people
think twice about inviting a Pugilist to the fight as the other two are not a make or break issue.

So essentially it's an issue with the balance of the fight, not the classes.

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Originally Posted by Alise

Okay, should I change the word "need" into "demand"?
That is what community want, and that is the most effective way.

Although the last part, a group of MRD is really need in order to win SH Amajaa gold chest, and Natalan gold chest with one PT, unless you could prove me otherwise, (with vid)

MMO community demand :"easiest to win", "fastest to gain", and "least to share".
Current PGL doesn't bring any of these. only waste spot in PT.

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Really, you need a new LS or a new group of friends who are more flexible.

It's not the fault of the class if you don't have a group that allows you to make it useful. Our shell, which is a social shell by the way, no endgame focus, did Dodore on a whim. We had two PGL in the group, and I'm glad we did. While holding the main NM on GLA, the PGLs were tanking the lesser minions so the LNC and mages could do the damage and healing.

Could we have replaced the PGLs with MRDs? Sure.
Could we have replaced the PGLs with LNCs? Probably.
Did we? No. PGL is more than capable and we're a part of a group that allows flexibility. In fact, I'm GLAD we had the PGLs there because they were doing some very good evasion tanking.

It's not the class that is the problem.