Make FFXIV more like FFXI and less like WoW!

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

I would love removing telegraphed attacks and maybe just increase normal attacks a little to compensate.

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You mean remove 99% of boss mechanics in the game, and make the game 1000x easier than it already is?

They should add more attacking rates and animations to compensate for repeatitiveness

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Except this was a complete illusion and came down to using what was considered the functionally best subjob combination for your main Job, in other words, what abilities and stats it would bring to the table. Some sub jobs did little to affect the most important stats on a main job and some couldn't make use of their abilities (BRD subbed was an example of this - because most songs required a musical instrument which could not be equipped while BRD was a sub job, it meant you could only use a small selection of songs that were actually sung, missing most of BRD's important repertoire). If a player even so much as attempted to set a subjob that the community did not consider worthwhile, you were basically laughed out of Dodge and couldn't get into any parties. There was absolutely no room to experiment at all. All FFXIV has done is accept this and taken the blinders off to see this illusion for what it truly is. Technically you could experiment, but in practice you didn't, you went with the 'established choices' (WAR subbed for PLD, NIN and DRK, NIN for pretty much everything, BLM for mage Jobs, DNC later on for soloing etc) - there was no way around it.

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At least there you got to choose from any job what you wanted to sub and got traits from it to enhance your subjob. The inability to equip certain weapons was a design choice, one that could be easily rectified if it was wanted. ESO allows you to equip anything you want. There was all the room in the world to explore, that whole game was about exploration from the world, to the crafting, to everything else. So much so that you had to go to website to learn all the intricacies of most systems. You might be shunned from parties for less than optimal subs or builds, but in that world there were tons of things to do in the open world or with friends who would experiment along with you.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

And when the development team comes out and says that a Job has actually been used incorrectly by players you know such a system is broken utterly (specifically: NIN and it's use as a so-called 'blink-tank' in FFXI - Tanaka's team never intended for NIN to tank, it was meant to be an enfeebling DPS class with Utsusemi being nothing more than a 'get-out-of-jail-free-card' when they pulled too much hate. Players of course abused this and used it for tanking, then whined when SE tried to actually stop players doing just such a thing by having enemies that ate through a NIN's shadows wholesale). Current producer Akihiko Matsui actually mentioned this was not their intention just recently during a FFXI-version of 'Letter From the Producer LIVE' that was hosted on Reddit (the transcript is on the FFXI forum):



So it goes to show that players were abusing the Jobs in ways that the development team never intended them for, which is exactly why the FFXIV Armoury System is set up the way it is, it's to stop a repeat of this sort of nonsense from happening again.

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That is called Emergent Gameplay and it is one of the best and most likely the future of most open world videogames. You see it in the new MGS, GTA, FFXI, etc.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

The trouble with this is that ARR's very design brief right at the start of development was specifically to avoid this - Yoshi-P stated specifically early on that he wanted to move players away from exp parties (seeing the problems this caused in both FFXI and FFXIV 1.0) and onto what he termed "content-based exp", that is, gaining exp through other gameplay means such as quest completion. ARR's very battle system accordingly is designed specifically to stop exp party camping by having enemies 'leashed' to a certain spot (where if you try to pull them away too far they'll de-agro you and run back to their spawn spot with your hate reset). And, given the fact that unlike FFXI ARR is like all good modern MMORPGs and doesn't lock an enemy exclusively to you and thus other players can jump in and hit the enemy even outside of a party, old-style exp parties would rush through enemies more quickly than what you would expect anyway. So basically this concept simply would not work and thus will never be seen in ARR, this was Yoshi decision and he's made sure of it.

As for the OP, Bourne_Endeavor basically summed up my own thoughts on this subject so I have nothing further to add, other than once again reiterating that this game will never be like FFXI - a game that was from a much earlier period of gaming which thankfully the gaming industry has moved on from. FFXIV is a modern MMORPG designed to appeal to more casual time-conscious players. The days of level grinding in the 'Dooms' and exp loss on death and 18-hour straight HNM boss fights like Absolute Virtue have thankfully gone forever. I loved FFXI for the 11 years I've been playing it but I was also not blinded by nostalgia and saw it's many faults and problems even back in it's heyday. The past is passed. Time to move on.

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So the future of Open World Massive RPG Games is to remove world identity, complexity from the AI and environment, and global unique enemy tendencies? I understand no one wants other players messing up their instanced dungeons or raids, but in open world? What genius would want more people to group up as easy as possible then turn around and make a majority of relevant content locked behind instances in tiny groups. Isn't the major fad now Open World with Dynamic events and realistic world systems?

I am not sugar coating the game and saying XI was superior than every other game or didn't have faults. But with a design team as big and talented as Square. I am sure with the experience in their elder mmo, they could create or bring over things from the other one and fix all the complaints that arose there.

I don't want to go back to the grind from 2002, but if the future or what we call Modern Mmos are designed to be on rails with no intention of re-visiting and re-iterating what made old games great, then I don't want to be a part of the modern mmo movement.

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Originally Posted by Norleas

You mean remove 99% of boss mechanics in the game, and make the game 1000x easier than it already is?

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I think "she" may have meant that the the telegraphed part of those attacks should be removed not the attacks (like the big circles or the big cones and so on). Not sure if this would be such a great idea though.

Isn't Nidhogg EX pretty much that? I've not done the fight at all (as I hardly play the game any more for personal reasons), but aren't most of his attacks that were telegraphed in the story fight, now "pay attention to the attack he's doing, or where he is and move yourself to where safety is guaranteed?"

Say what you will about me, but I'm having more fun in pre-patch Legion WoW than I ever did playing FFXI. Sometimes people like different things.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

I would love removing telegraphed attacks and maybe just increase normal attacks a little to compensate.

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I'd like to see the telegraphs removed, or pushed back to something more subtle or more sequential (once this attack A goes off, he AAs twice, and then does attack B; attack A is your only telegraph). Let's increase the necessary awareness, not decrease it.

As for normal attacks, I would, however, like to see AAs stop continuing right through boss wind-ups and casts, or hitting simultaneously with them. I shouldn't be facing a chance of death simply because an AA randomly lined up to go off within .3 seconds of a properly mitigated tank-buster (the massive heal for which I get .5 seconds after the hit, .2 seconds too late). Nor should AAs be going off without any animation, in general.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

So the future of Open World Massive RPG Games is to remove world identity, complexity from the AI and environment, and global unique enemy tendencies? I understand no one wants other players messing up their instanced dungeons or raids, but in open world? What genius would want more people to group up as easy as possible then turn around and make a majority of relevant content locked behind instances in tiny groups. Isn't the major fad now Open World with Dynamic events and realistic world systems?

I am not sugar coating the game and saying XI was superior than every other game or didn't have faults. But with a design team as big and talented as Square. I am sure with the experience in their elder mmo, they could create or bring over things from the other one and fix all the complaints that arose there.

I don't want to go back to the grind from 2002, but if the future or what we call Modern Mmos are designed to be on rails with no intention of re-visiting and re-iterating what made old games great, then I don't want to be a part of the modern mmo movement.

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It's less a matter of XIV 2.0+ removing world identity, AI and environmental complexity, etc., as just finding the matter too irrelevant to add back in what little 1.0 had or borrow anything from XI or other MMOs. It's not that XIV has anything against these things. It simply hasn't even waded into the waters yet. It's a matter of de-emphasis, not incompatibility.

The only thing that can really hold XIV back from those systems are whatever uses they have for the open world now that might be negatively affected. However, these are relatively few—FATEs, gathering, a sparse set of quests, Hunts, Marks, and perhaps beastman dailies. The open world being torn apart by dynamic events might inconvenience any of those things. The instanced world won't even see, let alone care, that such happened. But it's up to development to make that new "dynamic event", "realistic world" content worthwhile in the eyes of its players, by whatever combination of intrinsic and extrinsic interest. Failing to do so will then just push the inconvenienced remainder deep into the instanced dungeons as well.

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Originally Posted by Vivi_Bushido

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I never grew up with FFXI or any ancient MMOs but I like it as an MMO better because it pulls off an open world MMO better. Everything to do was in the world. It felt dangerous and I felt adventurous when I tried it out, and it also encourages players to communicate with the entire server because of the lack of Duty Finder in that game. Also I was pretty fond of FFXIV 1.x but too bad that game sucked so bad.

That feeling is something I didn't felt with FFXIV 2.0 and onwards. Duty Finder is nice, it gets the job done but kills a chunk of social aspect of the game (since it's cross-server grouping)
Sometimes I don't know why "casual" should mean it should be "easy" for the developers when it should be "convenient" which FFXIV pulls off okay in that regard, with the price of the open world being dead but hey, whatever works for them.

Shout half a day to get a group to kill Hektaeye for ohat? Yeah i'm all game! \o/

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Originally Posted by JimmyDean

What they did to this game is basically like if they made a next chapter of Mario Bros. But it played like Sonic the Hedgehog. Tanaka had FFXI in his head when developing 1.0. Yoshi had/has WoW in his head for 2.0 and beyond. The writing is on the wall.

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Considering that the devs looking at WoW for inspiration was the reason why I gave this game a second chance (played since 1.0), I'm not sure what the fuss is all about with the OP.

XI had a decent aesthetic and some decent world-building, but was also a cesspool of imbalances and poor design decisions. Granted, XIV is not absolutely perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than XI was.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

At least there you got to choose from any job what you wanted to sub and got traits from it to enhance your subjob.

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Except choice doesn't exist when every one-hander job had to sub NIN, every two-hander job had to sub SAM, and every caster had to sub SCH.

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You might be shunned from parties for less than optimal subs or builds, but in that world there were tons of things to do in the open world or with friends who would experiment along with you.

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I'm gonna go on a limb and say that you've never done anything that really deviated from the decrees of the hive mind. As someone who fought the battle to make DPS paladins in WoW accepted (as in, not a joke spec that was a waste of code) and someone who has argue ad nauseam about RDM melee (you know, that thing FFXI's developers left to rot while they shoehorned us to be refresh-bitch), getting excluded is no picnic. I'd rather be able to join any group and contribute equally or near-equally than being forced into a clique by the game's design and the playerbase.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

At least there you got to choose from any job what you wanted to sub and got traits from it to enhance your subjob. The inability to equip certain weapons was a design choice, one that could be easily rectified if it was wanted. ESO allows you to equip anything you want. There was all the room in the world to explore, that whole game was about exploration from the world, to the crafting, to everything else. So much so that you had to go to website to learn all the intricacies of most systems. You might be shunned from parties for less than optimal subs or builds, but in that world there were tons of things to do in the open world or with friends who would experiment along with you.

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Your choice was merely an illusion. As Enkidoh summarized, the community long determined what sub-jobs were viable and laughed aside anyone who even considered something unique. The equivalent would be attempt to raid in FFXIV with a vitality geared Dragoon. While the choice may be readily available, I wish you all the best finding a group willing to accept your choice. Those open world explorations still exist. They were simply streamlined into sidequests and more structured content for the ever time conscious gaming community. Frankly, I find the necessity of third-party websites to navigate a game poor design. I shouldn't be reliant on a guide to discover content.

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That is called Emergent Gameplay and it is one of the best and most likely the future of most open world videogames. You see it in the new MGS, GTA, FFXI, etc.

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No. That is poor game design. Unlike FFXI, the titles you listed expressly intended to give players free reign largely, and were not the product of players finding an exploit in the mechanics and abusing it. Furthermore, single player games do not have to account for balance because the experience will always been individualist. Multi-player games cannot afford this luxury as proven when NIN overtook other jobs and WAR made PLD near obsolete in FFXIV.

Imagine if GTA V released a bonus DLC where you could play as Tommy Vercetti, who came with a slew of benefits that put him above Franklin, Michael and Trevor. Maybe he had money perks or something. Once players exhausted the story content with those three, most would never bother with them again because Tommy is better.

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So the future of Open World Massive RPG Games is to remove world identity, complexity from the AI and environment, and global unique enemy tendencies? I understand no one wants other players messing up their instanced dungeons or raids, but in open world? What genius would want more people to group up as easy as possible then turn around and make a majority of relevant content locked behind instances in tiny groups. Isn't the major fad now Open World with Dynamic events and realistic world systems?

I am not sugar coating the game and saying XI was superior than every other game or didn't have faults. But with a design team as big and talented as Square. I am sure with the experience in their elder mmo, they could create or bring over things from the other one and fix all the complaints that arose there.

I don't want to go back to the grind from 2002, but if the future or what we call Modern Mmos are designed to be on rails with no intention of re-visiting and re-iterating what made old games great, then I don't want to be a part of the modern mmo movement.

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Instanced content allows for structured environments which the devs can then utilize to design around specifically. Pure open world leads to zerg fests like what became of hunts. Without knowing the exact amount of players, no developer can plan how difficult that content will be. You see this issue crop up in many F2P games that attempt open world. A large portion of content will forever remain untouched if rewards are deemed lackluster and others will become a chaotic mess. Merri even spoofs this mentality in one of his shorts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfG8qY0dINY

Take Black Desert. There is no strategy or sense of wonderment to their world bosses. Players literally kamikaze en masse because loot drops are determined by how much DPS you can inflict.

Unfortunately, if you feel that way, you will likely be left behind. Gamers nowadays consume content at such an alarmingly high rate, developers cannot keep up. People generally want to experience exciting new features, not re-visit old ones.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

At least there you got to choose from any job what you wanted to sub and got traits from it to enhance your subjob. The inability to equip certain weapons was a design choice, one that could be easily rectified if it was wanted. ESO allows you to equip anything you want. There was all the room in the world to explore, that whole game was about exploration from the world, to the crafting, to everything else. So much so that you had to go to website to learn all the intricacies of most systems. You might be shunned from parties for less than optimal subs or builds, but in that world there were tons of things to do in the open world or with friends who would experiment along with you.

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and ESO was so mega successful as an MMORPG right?

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

Prepare for 10 pages of bullcheese

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Congratulations your prediction is right. Here's cookie for you o-o)/*

what wow did with the new "artifact" weapons is awesome , specific weapon quests with lore , and to boost the weapon, u do quests (while leveling) , dungeons , openworld quests , and open new designs doing the class quests , and what not... the weapons have traits and bring new skills...

Some artifact quests look awesome (Ashbringer , Dk frost , the guardian proving worth to ursoc ect) ,quests ask for class specific skills even , u need to control a demon in warlock one , the rogue sub ask u to stealth some book (is a archmage book and protected with magic lasers :p)

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

what wow did with the new "artifact" weapons is awesome , specific weapon quests with lore , and to boost the weapon, u do quests (while leveling) , dungeons , openworld quests , and open new designs doing the class quests , and what not... the weapons have traits and bring new skills...

Some artifact quests look awesome (Ashbringer , Dk frost , the guardian proving worth to ursoc ect) ,quests ask for class specific skills even , u need to control a demon in warlock one , the rogue sub ask u to stealth some book (is a archmage book and protected with magic lasers :p)

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I'm happy that you're enjoying the idea of it, but the development team has already confirmed that nothing from the artifact system will be persistent in the following expansion.

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Originally Posted by Norleas

You mean remove 99% of boss mechanics in the game, and make the game 1000x easier than it already is?

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There would be more consistent damage and healers would be kept busy.

Well the next Warcraft expansion, Legion is out on the 30th of this month, so we'll see how many do in fact like that format and go off to play it.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

There would be more consistent damage and healers would be kept busy.

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Healers won't be "kept busy" unless they get an across-the-board potency nerf. A WHM can brunt-force a group from near-dead HP to full in two globals. As long as they have scaling like that in place, it won't matter what kind of mechanics you throw in.

Note that I'm not really against untelevised moves in general, I just think that using "healers will have actual stuff to heal" as your crutch is erroneous. I prefer moves with "organic" telegraphs like rings of fire spreading out slowly from a boss, boss animations indicating that they're about to do a certain move, or environmental hazards like gusts of wind or boulders. The above-the-head markers, pulsing meteor indicators and bright orange geometrical shapes are really out-of-place to me compared to boss moves in WoW, pre-expansion TERA, etc.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

Some artifact quests look awesome (Ashbringer , Dk frost , the guardian proving worth to ursoc ect) ,quests ask for class specific skills even , u need to control a demon in warlock one , the rogue sub ask u to stealth some book (is a archmage book and protected with magic lasers :p)

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The problem is that places a ridiculous amount of....weight (for lack of better terms) on the player character. Not to mention Blizzard has basically shit on a ton of lore weapons because we know those artifacts are not going to carry into the next expansion. You could argue that we have the same thing with relics, except our relics don't have much in the way of in-game representation. Excalibur was not prominently featured in story content for years before being given to the player along with a trillion copies for every PLD in the game (which is what's happening to Ashbringer and the Scythe of Elune).

If groups are losing health fast enough to unavoidable damage they would.

When I say remove telegraphs, I mean remove those attacks and replace with bigger auto attack; not just remove the warning.

Why not make FFXIV more like FFXIV and forget the damn FFXI?

I want to play FFXIV, not FFXI. If I want FFXI, then Isub for FFXI. For the love of god, stop trying to turn this game into FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

If groups are losing health fast enough to unavoidable damage they would.

When I say remove telegraphs, I mean remove those attacks and replace with bigger auto attack; not just remove the warning.

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I don't think designing encounters to be like T2 enrage will make healing any more engaging than it is now. Even assuming it's tweaked to have actual mechanics and single-target damage going out rather than a stationary object spamming High Voltage, it still wouldn't solve anything because it would be stupidly hard to balance. Too much outgoing AOE healing needed and SCH will get the axe. Constant flip-flops of heavy single-target healing and AOE healing just means the two healers will flip-flop who "gets to" DPS. Both happening simultaneously and frequently would be too severe a drain on resources for a BRD/MCH to handle (maaaaaybe. If tuned right, this could be intriguing, but then that means mechanical diversity in fights might fall by the wayside because people will die if the healers ever have to stop casting to move/for any reason).

Just so I don't seem like I'm being arbitrarily contrary, here's how I'd do it:

-nerf healing potencies and CDs across the board, so that both healers have to WORK get to get a group back up from near-death to "safe" levels (this would still allow them to adjust to mechanics and use cooldowns accordingly, they just wouldn't be able to strong-arm HP levels so raid busters would actually require tactics and have some "oomph")
-nerf healer DPS so it doesn't contribute as much and people don't feel "pressured" to do it (awful tactic IMO, won't solve boredom of healers at all tiers of content, will just make leveling harder and let lazy people win)
-design encounters with way more incoming damage, but adjust MP costs so that healers can keep up without having to roll 4 BRD/MCH comps (limits mobility severely by requiring healers to always be casting or wipe)

These are all valid solutions, but I feel like option 1 gives the most encounter design flexibility at the development level, though I know the backlash over a universal nerf would be harsh as HELL. I'd welcome it, to get the joy I feel at playing a more restorative/supporting role back, but I certainly don't expect others to do the same.

Well, this is pretty tangential to the OP. Sorry for the derail (but kinda not sorry cuz LOL POSTIN IN A TROLL TOPIC)

I tried to talk about this in a way with my post from a few weeks ago, but then people thought I was trying to MAKE IT XI and I wasn't but it has been brought up before probably in other ways as well. Was a pretty decent discussion imho
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...s-of-XI-fix-it

Make FFXIV more like WoW by adding gear with interesting stats, classes that have procs and stuff, and dungeons that don't suck.

http://www.wowhead.com/guide=4149/a-...lasses-paladin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTM5EdMVbwU

How about making it more like GW2 - more horizontal progression and less gear treadmills? :D

To those saying FFXI is dead I still play the game and there are still people around, not to mention that there is a plan to remake it to be playable on mobile devices along with its spinoff FFXI grandmasters. So to anyone saying that it is dead that is sort of hilarious. Less populated certainly, the servers are down to a few hundred on at all times of day *shrugs* that said it still has that many players a decade and a half after its release in spite of there being so many games with better graphics that are F2P.

All of that out of the way there are a number of things XIV could learn from XI. To name a few~

Events: one of the huge things that people are always going to complain about is that every event is ruled by fates, almost every single event. Final Fantasy XI made every event unique, from the summer event where you would /dance along with an npc to power up her attacks while fighting a fun-spoiling villian. To wandering around in a magic costume giving and receiving candy to/from npcs.

Or the stolen samurai armor quest where you needed to knock around a bunch of thieves outside of the cities with as many other people as you could gather, or the scavenger hunt or goldfish scooping or stealth quests, or the valentine's quest where you needed to smack the male lead of an in-game play to keep him from wandering off to flirt with npc girls. All of them were unique and many of them encouraged interactions with other players.

Quests in general: Many quests in FFXI give you an insight into the day to day lives of the worlds inhabitants, all the Npc's have stories, jobs, families, and yes they have troubles~ one womans husband is a guard who is frequently outside of the city walls on patrol, she asks you to take him medicine because she worries about him being alone out there.

A mithra (miqo'te) asks you to take a letter and a gift to her daughter in their home in the city slums~ you can choose to open the letter and read it (mind you the lady will know that you did it) which turns out to be a loving exchange between the mother and her daughter promising that she is doing her best to get the two of them out of that situation. You can later find out that she has infact been resorting to thievery to try and improve her daughters quality of life.

Or there is a humble gate guard that starts up a quest chain that brings a historical figure from Vana'diels history in to the present from an era of civil war. And you get to slowly see this man decide to turn against his own side in order to establish the peace the current era enjoys as a result of seeing how much better things are, it is one of the most amazing questlines in the game and it is entirely optional.

The list of quests just goes on and on and all of them have the power to make you /care/ about the random Npc's you come across. And the best part? All of them /remember/ that you helped them, and treat you as such rather than going back to not knowing you exist. And beyond that you can literally just run in to fun little insights in to day to day life for people at random, like talking to an npc that sparks a cutscene that had the cities religious leader come out to give a speech, there is no quest or anything it is just there~

The character gets involved during cutscenes: not so much at first, but starting by CoP and steadily growing from there you can expect to see your character getting fairly frequent dialogue choices and being spoken to by the story characters like a living breathing part of the story, a friend~ who actually has an opinion that matters.

^ Heavensward is getting there with the dialogue choices

Community: Long story short a lot of the time it feels like there just isn't one. Because why should there be when anything that you need done can either be done solo or through dutyfinder? It is not uncommon to walk through the game feeling like a solo player among other solo players or very small groups rather than a part of any sort of in-game community because there is no real need for anyone to interact outside of their FC's~ some of which are literally flaunted as being built up for nothing but the bonuses available and are /still/ solo-oriented.

Some of my fondest memories of FFXI are simple moments where someone would come along and save somebody else from a bad situation just because, then stand around and chat, possibly even becoming friends. You could generally expect that most of the people you come across are going to be friendly and helpful because there was a strong possibility that they may end up partying together at some point. Sure sometimes you would come across someone rude but generally speaking that sort of person wasn't around very long because eventually nobody would party with them.

Dutyfinder takes that sense of community away entirely and allows for players to pretty much be toxic beyond reason to deal with /because they can be and will still advance/ those sort of "i don't have time for mistakes you f***ing noobs!" types that you are sure to run in to atleast once every few dungeons.

Or the types who run palace of the dead with you only to turn around and deliberately die on the last floor so they can grind weapons without discussing the fact that they plan to do so ahead of time, why should they care? You are just some random person who happens to be in their party so it isn't like it matters if they royally wreck things for you and everyone else.

My most recent random chat with people waiting around in the high level hubtown? Immediately treated like an unwelcome attempt to be social~ use tells, or join a party together, don't you dare be social in /say I am much too busy standing here waiting for dutyfinder to send me off on my daily roulette to deal with people being nice to one another.

A great deal of the content in XI was originally geared twards making each servers community in to a community, only now that the population is lower have they inplimented things like Trust magic to help players play through content solo, yet even now with that going on you can still expect random instances of fun with total strangers.

Dealing with RMT: FFXI has a fairly large commited task force whose entire goal in life is to get rid of rmt, you send in a much easier to fill out report and within five minutes you can expect that your report has been read, investigated, dealt with. You can literally time it so you know the exact moment the rmt in question has been gotten rid of~ because you will get a thank you letter as that persons name gains a red ball of death and the character is suddenly erased from existence.

On my blue mage i formed the immortal lions, big group of people who would on occasion go around in full blue mage artifact gear being spooky while helping the task force to make RMT disappear, i did 124~ reports myself 123~ of which i got to see the person deleted for, the last was inconclusive.

Point being that there was actually communication between the players and GM's it was easy to access, quickly responded to because they had the manpower to do so. And you could actually get to be on friendly terms with the GMs and task force because again~ community

Now I could keep going all day but it would be silly, do I think that FFXIV should be FFXI 2.0? /no I do not/ i will be playing FFXI until it shuts down but that does not mean that I want it to replace FFXIV, they are two different things. I am grateful for the things in XIV that came from or were inspired by XI, like the races we play, and many of the monsters we fight. And I /loved/ the crossover events and the fact that Iroha stayed in Eorzea since she is literally your xi characters number 1 fan/student and her whole event was just a heartwarming rush of memories for me but overall I think they should remain separate beyond things XIV may borrow from in the future

That~said:
Do I think that XIV could /learn/ anything from XI? yes I do, all of those things that I listed I believe would be improvements to the game in general. Things that could add to it without overshadowing what XIV has established and which could add to the overall experience of playing.

I think the problem is with how the genre has changed, MMOs were a place of massive group play where guilds had goals they worked towards and everyone who took part in the progression left with a sense of achievement and community. XI in its golden years (03-08) did a great job at encompassing the game with content which produced lasting social cooperation, and WoW too during its earlier days?. MMOs for the last decade have been moving away from that leaving us games resembling a single player experience with an online option.

Maybe I'm just as bad as everyone else but I can see some good things coming from XI, still most of it has already been said. Yet with all the good that came from FFXI there were still plenty of problems, even with the good parts.

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Originally Posted by JimmyDean

Mobs in XI worked on TP. And even then you didn't know what ability they were gonna use. Totally random.

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That's true, mobs did work on TP. You sort of got a feel for it though once you played enough and anticipated, or maybe I got very lucky guessing when a Goblin was going to use an attack. Still, you didn't have the giant indicators, but you did have the longer casting times and they said in the chat "XXXXX readies Tail Blow/Fireball" you knew what you were getting into. Did you have time to react? Sure! It was random so a Goblin would use Bomb Toss or Goblin Rush etc... but after fighting for so long you knew how to react to it just a fluently as we do now with these indicators and knowing what's coming at what %. I knew to make sure barfira was up, or that I needed to AoE stoneskin the party with titan or get back and get ready for the cures.

So even though it was random, you have been killing Goblins since..forever, and knew how to react. In the end, you get the same thing as you do now with XIV. I'd only change the indicators, like Titans plumes, something that looks natural. Or WoD, where the ground gets messy before something eats you.

The call for subjobs and expanded gameplay on certain jobs was a good idea but it sort of fell through. Like others said, you were forced to run as SMN/WHM. Even the end game bosses, there was a set up way to do things. There were chainspell stunners, people building up TP in the background and working off of the MB. While skillchains and magic bursts were wonderful, it would be another thing we have to wait on. The forbidden melee RDM (Guilty of being one! Up to 55!), playing PUP (PUP/THF, PUP/WAR..PUP/WHM main healing puk parties..) but like others said the way they were made it didn't always work. Warrior was meant to pick up any weapon, use the mobs weakness (blunt, slash etc) to get the dmg boost and help with SC, but was best to stay with certain weapons due to how their ranks were. RDM, jack of all trades, got spells so late and lacked gear and their skill ranks. When you really saw something new it was awesome though. I remember seeing SAM/RNG just destroying flying mobs in XP pt's. BST's were solo, and my friend would be a BST yet, being in parties he would rock. Just blew they had that Pet XP reduction so early on..

Horizontal progression was wonderful, you expanded on the job. Yet in the end I'm blinking to run through enfeebling / enhancing / healing / elemental magic, or through every...single..staff as I summon avatars just to save a few ticks. I will always love XI, and remember how I got the weathers to unlock summoner. Yet when I think about what they should implement, I realize either it's already in the game in some way, wouldn't be as good as we think it would be or if brought in could work but the rework would just be insane.

I always wondered, if instead of getting traits like Enhanced PoM would we be more happy if our relic did the same thing???

I love the casual side to this game, I do believe it moves too fast and we don't get to appreciate the beauty these guys have put into this game because we're forced to grind so much. Maybe some things from XI could come to XIV, but when you bring in something good you always have to counter with balancing out the bad. Nothing comes without a negative impact of some sort. I do think the player base is ready for more in depth, and there will always be a "best' way...but that balance, is what is the hardest part of all.

Don't even really consider this a mmo really it pretty much a hub that you que in with random people in duty finder and go into instances with for the majority of players the rest have found groups to que up with and do instance content that way. Its more like wow because it easy and quick content so people can get in and out with a reward though the rewards in wow/ffxi was allot more meaningful IMO. /shrug

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Originally Posted by Leigaon

Maybe I'm just as bad as everyone else but I can see some good things coming from XI, still most of it has already been said. Yet with all the good that came from FFXI there were still plenty of problems, even with the good parts.

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Never a bad thing to be open-minded :) People are so unwilling to admit that XIV could be improved if they borrowed an idea or two from XI. Of course XI wasn't perfect, no one is claiming that, but this is why you don't try to copy the bad bits.

So many people are claiming "nostalgia" as if it's a winning argument, but it's not. That game does certain things far better than XIV. Just like XIV does certain things better than XI. No game is perfect and can always be improved upon.


Comments like this the following do not help this particular conversation:

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Originally Posted by Rinuko

Shout half a day to get a group to kill Hektaeye for ohat? Yeah i'm all game! \o/

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Sure, if we were debating all the pros and cons of the old XI, I can see why that may come up - but why on earth would we be trying to adapt some of the negative features the game had?

I'm not quite sure why, but it seems like people are unable to accept the fact that XIV can be improved upon, and heaven help you if you mention XI. If it makes people feel better, I'd love if they implemented some things from GW2 and AA too! Build myself the perfect MMO! lol.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Make FFXIV more like WoW by adding gear with interesting stats, classes that have procs and stuff, and dungeons that don't suck.

http://www.wowhead.com/guide=4149/a-...lasses-paladin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTM5EdMVbwU

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Planning on going full force with Legion, then? If the guild I'm in is actually interested in raiding, I might actually pick it up again.

What Yoshi should do is remove the training wheels and stop borrowing things from other people, and asking WoW players and such for idea's and try and do his own
stuff so this game can be original and now an Anime ver. of WoW. He's playing safe too much from the fall of 1.0. It's time to step it up somewhere.
Stop the repetition already. I literally play for maybe 1-2 weeks of a new patch, leave, come back for right before the next big patch and wait...then it starts over again.
Happens when you do the same pattern for years. :/
I just want this to be it's own, original game.

How about NOT making it like either of them?

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Originally Posted by JimmyDean

Really? Lol. Usually successor's to games are like their predecessor. No?

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Only if the predecessor wasn't a pile of garbage.
In general, sucessor games are better in every way, which ranges from small adjustments for games that were already just about perfect to...well, complete overhauls if the previous game sucked.

Also, SE changes FF completely with every title no matter how the predecessor did. That's actually what the FF brand has always been known for - bringing innovation to the brand, possibly the whole genre.
I'm not gonna go ahead and say something stupid like how FFXIV revolutionizes the MMO market (because it doesn't) but at least it is staying true to the formula of every FF game being different.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

Planning on going full force with Legion, then? If the guild I'm in is actually interested in raiding, I might actually pick it up again.

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I haven't played WoW since lich king but the super low quality of the recent patches in XIV + extreme lack of creativity when it comes to gear and stuff is making WoW look pretty good by comparison.

@Aryalandi
The "NPC backstory" section of your posting is pretty much what the PostMoogle quests were about -- learning more about characters you encountered in game. Many of the other items you discussed there are actually available if you take the time to converse with NPCs on a regular basis.

The events at the Waking Sands hit more closely to home, for example, if you've been regularly conversing with everyone in the back room.

One thing I will say about community -- you're first MMO will almost always evoke the fondest memories of community. Believe me, I've been playing since GamBit moved the Scepter database over to a 16-player modem connected PC back in the mid-1980s (MUDs did not yet exist). The community was great, especially since you couldn't actually accomplish much against the more powerful creatures out there without cooperation. Role-playing was great as well ... ah, there goes me being all nostalgic for a game I haven't played in over 30 years ...

@Duelle
Lie, I saw many different jobs subbing different things depending on the situation in low man stuff. In full party content that might hold true mostly.

I soloed or duoed many things designed to be full party content with skillful play with the job system and environment knowledge. And the refresh-bitch you mention might be that in some cases but was also one of the most OP solo classes.

@Bourne Endeavor
You can't do things outside the box here because classes are heavily limited. The traits and skills your class job give you lock you into roles. At times discovering things on your own rather than what is fed to you is nice, it adds immersion but I admit a fault of XI was always needing to do that.

Every job had certain things it was better at. Ninja was never always better than any other tank, it depended on the circumstances. I'd admit party forming is easier when every job is flavors of each other but it comes at the cost of player experimentation being lost.

You point me to F2P games for open world examples gone wrong. Most of XI's open world remained mostly relevant right up until shortly after Abyssea expansion. It surpassed the depth of the game it was built around. XI never went mainstream because of it's lack of in game info, server lock, and the amount of time needed to progress.

Am I the only one who liked how they did FFXII (not the story but gameplay and side activities)?

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Originally Posted by KitingGenbu

I'm happy that you're enjoying the idea of it, but the development team has already confirmed that nothing from the artifact system will be persistent in the following expansion.

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and? relics werent persistent nor anima weapons....my point is that u can create a grind / fun /rewarding content w/o having to use crafting or low lvl content :/ , or make ppl grind fates for hours .... and every specs gets its own quest ....how hard is to create a cool questline for the FFXIV weapons? there are way less jobs in FFXIV than spec in WoW ....yet the 1 steps in anima were pushed back and back again and we got low lvl dungeons , fates and crafting mats , and farm currency , NO new content added for anima in mind.

maybe the classes keep the relic skill in the next expansion since it changes how the specs play (see Fire mage)