Self-Destructing Community?

Not always is it people are lazy, some people want to do the content as if it was first day...though those people are rare and tend to bring full groups to content

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

Going in blind is one thing, but when there's no attempt at communication or people can't even apply the basic stuff they were taught/shown enough from older content then that's when I get annoyed. For example:

- See adds spawn? How about killing those instead of just ignoring them. You're taught this in practically every dungeon with this mechanic.
- The boss is putting damage-up stacks on the MT? How about doing a Tank swap. You're taught this in A3
- See a group of arrows pointing at a character? How about stacking with the group to take the damage. You're taught this in Thordan and VA.
- Noticed the same enemies you faced before come back in another fight? How about seeing if the same mechanics you did then are what you have to do now, instead of running around as if you've never seen them before.

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^ This is a great example of what everyone should be doing, regardless if it's a new instance or not. If you aren't retaining knowledge, it just makes the whole experience tougher.

Also, if someone is going to actually give advice about a new dungeon and its mechanics, they shouldn't give vague details about otherwise important info.
(Ex. Neuro Squama:
Bad: "Look at the wall..." vs
Good: "When the boss starts casting this, everyone faces the wall, preferably in the same direction. When cast, a copy of your character will be made and target cone AOEs, in the direction you faced. You can move freely after it casts.

It doesn't have to be an essay, but be able to communicate the importance of the mechanic, or if you should treat a familiar mechanic with a different approach.

Overall, the team has to be on the same page, and one weak link can bring everyone down.

This happen to my party yesterday.

http://i.imgur.com/kH43yvV.jpg?1

Player was new to the dungeon, we actually tried to take the time to explain things to them, but they didn't want to hear it, so they up and left.

Guess they just wanted a carry.

there are times when you need to ignore the adds, though. Like the abominable snowman fight, for instance. Also, sometimes arrows mean stay away, like the comets falling in Behmoth. Monsters have different abilities in different fights. Even EX versions of the same mob act different and have different skills/rotations from the normal mode. None of those things really apply to a new mechanic until after you've tried, and possibly failed.

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Originally Posted by Mister_Nox

The subject of this thread is somewhat bittersweet, I guess I'm just trying to see if anyone else is running into the same toxic clouds that I am.
The main issue I'm getting at the moment is players doing their daily roulette, not reading the gigantic "new player bonus" at the start, or my attempts to advise them that I am currently trying a duty I have no clue about.
This would be no problem at all, if all goes to plan. However, with new mechanics to which the solution is not immediately apparent, there is a fair chance someone will cock up, or miss something. It is at this point that certain players feel the need to explode into an incandescent ball of rage and possibly neckbeards. NOT HELPFUL.
Is it really just me? or has anyone else got any crackers where after playing seven thousand hours straight, someone doesnt have the time to type "just focus down X enemy".

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do what i do "turn chat off" good luck :)

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Originally Posted by azlewood

do what i do "turn chat off" good luck :)

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Do not do this at all.

Its an MMO how on earth can you see if people are asking you stuff?

They could ask if people need help or tips and ofc you can't see it lol.

Them being rude to new people is bad yes but I'd argue that its also bad to willfully ignore people who may just want to help.

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Originally Posted by azlewood

do what i do "turn chat off" good luck :)

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Now in this context doing this is just stupid... Or selfish...


Hmm nah, its both.

Sadly it happens to often these days. That's why I do recon with friends who arent afraid of a setback/challenge. Before rolling with pugs.

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Originally Posted by Vivi_Bushido

This happen to my party yesterday.

http://i.imgur.com/kH43yvV.jpg?1

Player was new to the dungeon, we actually tried to take the time to explain things to them, but they didn't want to hear it, so they up and left.

Guess they just wanted a carry.

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Bleh. Murder rage. That snowflake of a healer makes me want to throw a rock at his fairy.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

Bleh. Murder rage. That snowflake of a healer makes me want to throw a rock at his fairy.

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Oh that SCH was the replacement healer that joined in after our WHM left because he didn't want us to take the time to explain mechanics to them.

You're gonna encounter the worst of people from any argument side when you're playing a game with other people. New players accepting advice. New players taking advice very harshly. Vets providing friendly advice. Vets providing rude criticism as a form of advice (oblivious to the fact that calling someone the N-word is not kosher). So on and so forth. I encounter enough stupidity IRL and in other forms of online socialization... *cough*...

It's partly why I don't really bother with group activity. I'm fortunate enough to experience the hardships of older online games and the comradery that results from it. So, after all these years, I had enough experience to enjoy that form of content to not bother anymore... enough so that I just do my own thing and am very happy about it, even if it's not the standard way to play. Made some very good friends as a result, which after over 10 years, most of us still chat or play games together from time to time. Even back then, I was mostly a solo player and all about the crafting/gathering and doing the things that shouldn't be doable (soloing mobs/dungeons/raids using whatever means to do it). XIV doesn't have too much of that, but whatever. I like the crafting system and such. FC is fun to chat with, at least during the rare occasions I bother saying anything lol.

This kind of thing is why I'm glad I have friends that play this game, so I can run through the content with them together, prior to a solo experience. If I have to run through something solo, though, I do try to mention that I'm new. I like to think I'm okay at figuring some mechanics out, but an explanation never hurts.

Regarding "look it up on YouTube", everyone learns best in their own way. I myself learn okay visually, but best from experience. Some people might watch videos but get nothing out of it until they try it. "Look it up on YouTube" only works so well, people. Regardless, patience is something that is really going to make or break people when it comes to new content. If you don't have the time or patience to explain to new people, bring your own group, and please talk to the Smith again to ask for your mentorship to be revoked. If you don't have the time to speak up about being new to content or learning new content, then by all means pass on it until you do. It's a two-way street, and people HAVE to meet each other part of the way.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

- See a group of arrows pointing at a character? How about stacking with the group to take the damage. You're taught this in Thordan and VA.
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To be fair this game loves its inconsistent icons the arrows pointing inwards is the best stack together icon so far and I hope they keep using it. There's no need to keep changing icons or keep reusing ones you've seen before but all of a sudden they do different mechanics. Like Void Arks first boss, Dive Bomb icon appears on your character you expect a charging attack that also causes knockback, it instead drops puddles just like a boss in KoTL boss 2 so for the first time doing void ark you're gonna be confused why it didn't charge. I guess the icon however teaches you to stay away from people.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

It's partly why I don't really bother with group activity. I'm fortunate enough to experience the hardships of older online games and the comradery that results from it. So, after all these years, I had enough experience to enjoy that form of content to not bother anymore... enough so that I just do my own thing and am very happy about it, even if it's not the standard way to play. Made some very good friends as a result, which after over 10 years, most of us still chat or play games together from time to time. Even back then, I was mostly a solo player and all about the crafting/gathering and doing the things that shouldn't be doable (soloing mobs/dungeons/raids using whatever means to do it). XIV doesn't have too much of that, but whatever. I like the crafting system and such. FC is fun to chat with, at least during the rare occasions I bother saying anything lol.

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I sometimes wonder why in this game I am such a lone wolf, when I never have before. And could never quite put my finger on it. I think you just gave the best reasoning that I could never come up with myself.

Yeah good old EQ days, me on my Enchanter Crackalot and a buddy Necromancer, both with Dire Charms, duo'ing dungeons you should not be able to. Fun times. Which I guess to be fair to him he could solo them, but I was still slightly useful.

I have to admit that I got quite frustrated last night with Midas 3 after running it 15 times successfully with over 9 wipes, I know the mechanics like the back of my hand but I can't speak a lick of Japanese to communicate with my party. Google Translate didn't help in the slightest, luckily I occasionally play with a Japanese friend who can translate what I say so that helps.

If you're in an NA/EU data centre and see the someone is new message, ask if anyone doesn't know the fight, no response? Well it's safe to assume they've read or watched a guide, otherwise go ahead and call them out for not speaking up when you asked. Might be an unpopular opinion, but if someone asks if you know the mechanics and you don't but you don't say anything, you could potentially be a hindrance to the entire party. I understand not watching a video not to spoil the fight, but text explanations of mechanics can hardly be called "spoilers". If you consider them spoilers, run with your FC or create a PF group, don't go to DF if you're not willing to ask for and take advice.

The community has definitely grown worse over time. Fewer people play for fun; most people have been taught to grind and get cranky at anyone who is playing instead of farming.

When Titan HM was the barrier, I remember people trying for the whole hour often. Now people rage quit Sephirot NM after a couple tries within the first week.

I think it's just what happens as a game ages. The nice relaxed people move on, and the grinders are left. Fewer people return for each patch, and there's a shorter window of time when new content can be experienced with people who know how to have fun gaming.

However it's not impossible. I got a couple nice groups this week. Also I never tell people I'm new. Either everything will be overexplained or people will be rude. People in DF have zero expectations of others knowing the fight, so just try the fight and see how it goes.

One statement: Go to the FFXI forums (if your account is valid on there), and people will complain and yell at you to go back here because they think FFXI is better than FFXIV. They even act like that on the Facebook groups. Trust me, they are way more toxic than the FFXIV community. We are literally like children at church compared to them.

Going in blind patch day with sephirot was one of the best things i've experienced. The moment we figured out what to do to avoid his triple fist full of 9999 damage swipe, everyone was happy, and the chat was filled with Awesome and a lot of positivity. We figured out that fight by ourselves without using a video. I also tried looking up guides patch day for the 2 new dungeons and their weren't any videos up. I don't know why people expect to watch videos that don't even exist on patch day.

all that video hand holding is getting people edgy. Even when they aren't around.

From what I can see there aren't even that many guides on 3.2 yet. Most videos I've seen on Sephirot for example are people recording their EX clears with no explanation about what's going on and that's not abundantly helpful.

I, as a mediocre to poor player where this game is concerned, try to watch or read guides to reduce my own margin of error but there is no learning experience like just trying an encounter. People will mess up their first time, usually, but once they get messing up out of their system they can get the mechanics down well.

Try to brush off the people who rage.

There are undoubtedly lazy players who do put minimal effort into learning anything but there are players new to content too and I think veterans forget at times what the biggest and most important step is in any learning process: Fail faster.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

I've found that if someones new and that they actually speak up and ask for help, they get it. Every time.
I've found that if someones new and they don't ask for help, the expectation is that they know what's coming.

Generally speaking, in dungeons, it's not much new. Dodge aoes. Deal damage. If something you can click on, click on it. It's mechanic heavy raids that may require some assistance to some, so don't be afraid to ask!

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Was in A8 earlier. Had 3 new dps and one new tank. I offered to help. I was typing, but the other tank Triggered his pull macro while I was explaining the basic mechanics outside of what's learned in A7.

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Originally Posted by luciferbelmont

Going in blind patch day with sephirot was one of the best things i've experienced. The moment we figured out what to do to avoid his triple fist full of 9999 damage swipe, everyone was happy, and the chat was filled with Awesome and a lot of positivity. We figured out that fight by ourselves without using a video. I also tried looking up guides patch day for the 2 new dungeons and their weren't any videos up. I don't know why people expect to watch videos that don't even exist on patch day.

all that video hand holding is getting people edgy. Even when they aren't around.

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Yes! The Day One fights are always amazing. I remember this with Titan Ex, Thordan Ex, and now Sephirot Ex. However, now, people are impatient unfortunately, so it makes learning parties a pain rather than progressively having fun.

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Originally Posted by Ninster

This kind of thing is why I'm glad I have friends that play this game, so I can run through the content with them together, prior to a solo experience. If I have to run through something solo, though, I do try to mention that I'm new. I like to think I'm okay at figuring some mechanics out, but an explanation never hurts.

Regarding "look it up on YouTube", everyone learns best in their own way. I myself learn okay visually, but best from experience. Some people might watch videos but get nothing out of it until they try it. "Look it up on YouTube" only works so well, people. Regardless, patience is something that is really going to make or break people when it comes to new content. If you don't have the time or patience to explain to new people, bring your own group, and please talk to the Smith again to ask for your mentorship to be revoked. If you don't have the time to speak up about being new to content or learning new content, then by all means pass on it until you do. It's a two-way street, and people HAVE to meet each other part of the way.

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I wish!

Been playing since beta phase 1 on PS3. While I have "friends", we're all on different pages. They are in a static; I'm not due to work schedule. I'm online late nights. They're either offline or relaxing with crafting after doing battles all day. Duty Finder has been my friend since it was early 2014. Majority of my 2.X wins came from DF.

I have nearly stopped doing all group activities in this game because the people are rude.

I'm always apparently lazy or stupid. Same for my friends. I have a friend who is 61 years old and she frequently cries, like with this newest update, when someone told her she is an idiot and that she should kill herself because she didn't know all the mechanics of one of the new dungeons within 12 hours of release. Also, she is old, physically slower, English isn't her native language etc.

But nah bro, we're all just dumb AF.

I honestly don't even care how bad of a player I might be anymore, I'll always be better than most people anyway. If you spend 95% of the dungeon typing away how bad I am, I'm bound to do better than you. At least I can like, press my macros, and dodge AoE's.

BTW, ya'll ain't qualified to be mentors. Take that crown off. "Kill yourself IRL" is a really bad gaming strategy. You'd be down a DPS.

PS. If you are a nice person, this rant doesn't apply.

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Originally Posted by Naraku_Diabolos

One statement: Go to the FFXI forums (if your account is valid on there), and people will complain and yell at you to go back here because they think FFXI is better than FFXIV. They even act like that on the Facebook groups. Trust me, they are way more toxic than the FFXIV community. We are literally like children at church compared to them.

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Well I like both for different reasons but they're not wrong about FFXI being great (or better for that matter).
All these people who look up guides for this game wouldn't last long in FFXI when it first came out, hell I bet most of the ex WoW players here wouldn't last in a single player FF game.

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Originally Posted by Dorander

I honestly don't care if you think it's "rude" or "insensitive" when the information is available. You are willfully choosing ignorance, so expect the reaction. So yes.. REALLY! Stop being lazy and take the 10 minutes to at least know what you are getting in to.

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Watching videos don't always work for everyone. I cannot keep focus while watching videos and have a hard time understanding compared to just doing it. As well tutorials such as Mr happy's. He talks to much do by time I'm on P3 or 4 I forgot p1 and 2.

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

Watching videos don't always work for everyone. I cannot keep focus while watching videos and have a hard time understanding compared to just doing it. As well tutorials such as Mr happy's. He talks to much do by time I'm on P3 or 4 I forgot p1 and 2.

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Regardless of being able to focus or not you can at least get a cursory look at mechanics. Hell I dislike watching videos as much as the next guy as a method of learning but it's better than going in totally blind.

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Originally Posted by Naraku_Diabolos

One statement: Go to the FFXI forums (if your account is valid on there), and people will complain and yell at you to go back here because they think FFXI is better than FFXIV. They even act like that on the Facebook groups. Trust me, they are way more toxic than the FFXIV community. We are literally like children at church compared to them.

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I fail to see what FFXI has got to do with the state of FFXIVs community?

It comes across as you're saying, "at least ours isn't as bad as theirs" which if that is what you're saying is an awful way of looking at something and never leads to improvement but instead usually the opposite.

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

Watching videos don't always work for everyone. I cannot keep focus while watching videos and have a hard time understanding compared to just doing it. As well tutorials such as Mr happy's. He talks to much do by time I'm on P3 or 4 I forgot p1 and 2.

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I personally think, as long as people are respectful of others/party requirements and they communicate, watching a video shouldn't be a MUST. This is a game after all and people are here to have fun.

On the note of this though, I have a recommendation for you when watching Mrhappy's videos. Just focus on the aspects of the video that are directed at your role. While it can be useful to know the other roles in the fight, your role is the one that matters when learning. Watching the videos with this mind set will make them much less cumbersome. (Well at least for me it did. XD)

I will agree, he does cover a lot of ground and I end up having to watch his videos more than once usually to get the full picture.

When people want advice they ask for it. If your advice is solicited then give it. If they don't ask for it then either they watched a vid and have a good idea of what to expect or would like to try to figure it out on their own. Respect their wishes. If after a few attempts they still appear to be struggling, ASK if they would like an explanation before just force feeding it down their throats. That was a real annoyance during this recent patch...it had been out all of 8 hours before I had the chance to do Sephirot and people were already posting books about the mechanics on entry. There was nothing in there I couldn't figure out after seeing once. Respect people's right to enjoy the game. If your enjoyment of the game comes from everything running flawlessly then put your own group together and run without random people. The moment you enter Duty Finder you've accepted that you might (probably) will be playing with people who don't have the experience or player skill you do.

Also, videos are absolutely not a requirement for any content, new or old. If the content is new then let the people who want to discover the content blind do so. If it's old, then the other 3 people know the mechanics well enough that they should be able to cover for any mistakes by the new person. I don't watch videos before running a new dungeon. I will check the vids out after I've run the new content a few times to see if there was anything I missed or was unable to figure out on my own. This whole "rage" thing needs to stop though. If you wouldn't say something to someone's face you shouldn't say it online either.

It's like with each new patch comes more rudeness, Alexander Midas was a hot mess the first day in A7 ppl where yelling, kicking and screaming the whole time now don't get me wrong most of Midas is easy but there are a lot of mechanics in A7 for ppl to learn...videos arnt always available when content is like same day new lol

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

It's like with each new patch comes more rudeness, Alexander Midas was a hot mess the first day in A7 ppl where yelling, kicking and screaming the whole time now don't get me wrong most of Midas is easy but there are a lot of mechanics in A7 for ppl to learn...videos arnt always available when content is like same day new lol

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its that bad in normal these days would be 500x worse in savage and ex primals.. thats the reason i havent even bother raiding.. would turn me off ff14 all together so i avoid it to enjoy the game more XD yesh i wanna do them for achivements but not willing to endure that sort of toxicity sooo :P

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

Watching videos don't always work for everyone. I cannot keep focus while watching videos and have a hard time understanding compared to just doing it. As well tutorials such as Mr happy's. He talks to much do by time I'm on P3 or 4 I forgot p1 and 2.

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I'd like to recommend Essorance's TLDR videos and MTQcapture's videos (comes with written boss ability names I think). They are only 2-4 minutes long and describe everything that goes on in the fight very briefly without random chatter, giving a good overview of the fight for every role. Because the videos are so short you can watch them twice during the queue time. First time to get used to spell animations, main mechanics and markers, and second to focus on what your role has to pay attention to during the whole fight.

I get where you're coming from though. I counted at least 17 different mechanics in A8 and that's on the brink of how many things I can remember after being told once. That developers are focusing more on mechanics and less on dps checks is very enjoyable imo but a lot of people still have the expectation that it's easy to memorize an entire fight just by seeing/reading it once. Maybe some people get it perfect the first time but for me remembering 17 mechanics and responses to them, positioning, boss spell names and when to use cooldowns is not a trivial task and requires trying it out in game. If the number of mechanics was cut in half (like A2 for example) it would be a different story.

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Originally Posted by Dorander

Guides are up within hours of new content going live, if not by the next day. So, if you aren't there on release day, take the time to look it up. That's where the explosion comes from, cause honestly.. alot of us are tired of doing the research ourselves and then expected to hand hold lazy people who don't want to "spoil the fight."

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This is exactly why I stay away from pve.


Lazy...yeah okay.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Yes! The Day One fights are always amazing. I remember this with Titan Ex, Thordan Ex, and now Sephirot Ex. However, now, people are impatient unfortunately, so it makes learning parties a pain rather than progressively having fun.

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It's been 6 days since patch came out. Some of us have tried sepiroth for over 20 hours and experienced whole fight and just want to kill it. Yeah I don't mind training other people but.. Out of these 20 hours, 6 were spent stupidly in p1 wipes, 1 hour was spent on after wind add in p3 progress, and the other 13 hours were spent teaching ppl what to do in p3 even thought I put in my party finders, have enrage exp or whole fight exp.... Now tell me.. Why do I have to teach people all the time? I'm so borred of wiping there that I'd rather wait until I find 7 people who also know whole fight than.. Teach people p3 again and again. There's always someone who doesn't understand holding back everyone else(If everyone actually learned and didn't make same mistake twice I wouldn't be here complaining).

Resuming what I'm complaining: every time I make a kill party. 2-6 people thinking it's a train party for p3 will slip in and screw the rest of us. And I try to teach people instead of kicking and yet they don't listen. Ungrateful lier bastards sneaking in and not even making effort...

I understand how some people get frustrated that they join a roulette queue in the DF and end up with new people in a group that wipe on something that they, themselves, know very well. I understand that brief moment of "aaaauugh!" because something you thought would be quick turned into something lengthy. But to get pissy at people for it is ridiculous. Just teach the new players, explain the mechanics. There are very few fights in this game that can't be explained in a pretty simple manner
(EX fights are another story but I'm going to assume that if you want to farm EX primals you join a PF for that and I do understand being angry when someone new joins a farming PF party but that's a different discussion.)

It's especially jarring to see people get angry about players not knowing brand new fights. I joined a Midas7 group on patch day and there was a healer who quit because people were new. On patch day. People like that are just going to give themselves heart attacks they are wound so tightly. Personally, I love going into content and learning the fight first hand. Getting scared by mechanics and then learning how to deal with them.

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Originally Posted by CassandraJean

But to get pissy at people for it is ridiculous. Just teach the new players, explain the mechanics.

It's especially jarring to see people get angry about players not knowing brand new fights. I joined a Midas7 group on patch day and there was a healer who quit because people were new. On patch day. People like that are just going to give themselves heart attacks they are wound so tightly.

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I wish I could Like this 100 times.

If i'm new to a dungeon or a raid or anything i usually just say 'hey i'm new, is there anything i should know about this dungeon?' and 97% of the time people will tell me the mechanics of stuff when we reach it,
and vice versa, if someone is new and doesn't know the instance, i usually ask who, and explain parts of the dungeon as we reach them, it works out well,
the 3% are the anti-social ones or the ones who don't speak english, but i end up working out the mechanics on the fly, or ask in my FC chat while on route to boss.

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Originally Posted by Dorander

Guides are up within hours of new content going live, if not by the next day. So, if you aren't there on release day, take the time to look it up. That's where the explosion comes from, cause honestly.. alot of us are tired of doing the research ourselves and then expected to hand hold lazy people who don't want to "spoil the fight."

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This is the worst attitude, and basically an instant indicator that someone isn't a very solid player, after all you are having to refer to guides while everyone else is figuring the fight out on their own. If a fight is 3-4 weeks old and on farm by most of your server, sure read a guide...But don't expect people to spoil fight with guides in the first week, we get new fights four times a year, and for me personally figuring out those fights without a guide is where the fun is.

But there is less and less players who help, who care about de new ones... I don't know if it's the same on your server but in mine, nobody say "HI/Hello" when we start a dungeon... if people dont do that how can they take the time to explain a strat or something??? they don't care about everything all they want is "fast run, higher gain"...
And that's the big problem in every MMO most of the players want all immediately they dont have patience...

So find a good FC create or find a friendly LS and play with players who are nice and friendly ! Stay cool and help the other. That's the best advise i think...