Sephirot Theme ( Phase 2 ) sound familiar?

Thank you for a swift response!

I'm no musician so I'll just leave this here hoping the guy doesn't BS :

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Originally Posted by Lemagex

Take my opinion as you will, as a musician of only 17 years.

The songs are as "Similar" to eachother as both are similar to all "Nu Metal" and "Grunge" released since 2001.

The drum track? Different tempo, different instruments, different pattern, different beat. PM5K sticks to the 4x4 pattern of Kick | HiHat | Kick+Snare | Hihat | Variating every so often but very little. and the XIV track seems to ignore anything not producing bass for most of it, using more loose and open hats. sometimes at 4x4 sometimes 2x2 sometimes otherwise.

The guitar? The only similarity if you can even call it that is the 2 chord progression (lol)

The intros? XIV is more bass, PM5K is more treble.

The vocals? XIV is more lower range hz and spread out, PM5K is more higher range and closer together with screaming, the only words the two songs share in common are "World's" "Taking over" nothing else.

The song overall is a different tempo, the XIV track is deeper and has more of an industrial feel to it.

I've been a fan of PM5K for a lonnnnnnnnng time, but this is making me have serious concern for their hearing abilities.

Personal conclusion: Calling this a "Rip off" of PM5K is like calling Gangnam Style a ripoff of Baby. LOL

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

However, track composer Masayoshi Soken, has also stated to me that he was unaware of the track in question while working on this FINAL FANTASY track.

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Not so sure about that, but it's quite easy to forget about particulars songs for years (decades, even), and then suddenly something plays in tour mind and you find it cool again. Doesn't mean you know where you heard it though.

I was surprised to hear that Soken had not heard the song before now, but when I think about it, that's not really that strange. There's an ocean of difference between the music industries of North America and Japan, as well as the fact that the song in question hasn't been relevant for 17 years.

I like Sephirot's theme a lot and am happy with its inclusion in the game.

I never once had the impression that the music sounded like that other song. I played tony hawk 2 and that song is still very fresh in my mind.
My first impression on sephirot was that it resembled something I'd hear from a Devil May Cry game. Which also have songs that kinda sound like the Tony hawk 2 song.

That said, people need to realize that the world is VERY large and vast. And that we humans exist in massive numbers. The chances of creating something that is 100% unique is VERY small. As an artist myself, there are moments I drew something. Only to end up noticing that someone else had almost the same idea as me. Heck, if you really look deeply in all forms or art. You'll find MANY simularities to other things. Just some food for thought.

I usually don't comment on the forum but in this regard I feel the need to do so.

First of all thanks for the fast feedback Yoshida-san and I desperately hope Sephirot's encounter stays as it is.

Now regarding the matter, when I first heard it I was thinking of other songs as well and only got the "Powerman 5000" comparison from another person pointing it out.
In all fairness that resulted in me compared them as well until I heard "When World's Collide" again after a long time and realised how different they were unlike my memory wanted me to believe.
Yes there are some aspects that are close to each other (lead guitar in the beginning and the overall style) but that don’t make it a rip-off.

The lyrics and overall song are totally unique and regard the world tree "Sephirot" and reflect his being very good for me - reason I absolutely love it as it speaks to my soul on quite a primal level and sting it where it usually doesn't get much attention.
And therein lies the difference for me, I feel totally different when hearing "When World's Collide" and it is a frankly said lesser experience - no offense - thus how can Sephirot's theme be a rip-off when it at best/worst builds upon the same style Powerman 5000 has.

If everything similar would be counted as a rip-off and countered our world would be a empty and sad place without progression, innovation and rejuvenation. Is the Tiger a rip-off of the Lion just because they are both members of the "Felidae" family and have physical similarities?

Best Regards Jhemi

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Originally Posted by Jhemi

Now regarding the matter, when I first heard it I was thinking of other songs as well and only got the "Powerman 5000" comparison from another person pointing it out.
In all fairness that resulted in me compared them as well until I heard "When World's Collide" again after a long time and realised how different they were unlike my memory wanted me to believe.
Yes there are some aspects that are close to each other (lead guitar in the beginning and the overall style) but that don’t make it a rip-off.

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I have to agree with this, too. Actually going ahead and carefully listening to the two songs where they're supposedly 'the same' if you have a good ear for music you can tell that while stylistically they're similar they are not the same. The singer's tone and such really make it an easy comparison and your brain will say, 'Hey, these resemble each other so they must be the same.' But when you dig down into it the rhythm is entirely different and the actual riffs are nowhere near the same.

Honestly, I wouldn't expect anyone who's not played an instrument to pick up on it (I do sound for a band and play the electric guitar) but if you have a semblance of ear training to pick up the beats then you can tell that they're different songs. Now this doesn't mean that the style of song wasn't influenced by When Worlds Collide or some other similar sounding songs, but you can't copyright a style of music in general, you can only copyright the expression of that style in your songs. If it was a direct rip of the back line and guitar then there would be a case to be made here, but they're arguably different enough to make this simply a stylistic choice which renders copyright issues out in this case.

Gee not like this has ever happened before *cough cough* Good King Moogle Mog *cough cough*

But seriously, people are over reacting to much. The songs start out the stylistically the same, but both go their own way once they hit the chorus.

What I'm most upset about is this is gonna be called the "Song that ripped off Powerman 5000" and its annoying.

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Originally Posted by Tman00

Gee not like this has ever happened before *cough cough* Good King Moogle Mog *cough cough*

But seriously, people are over reacting to much. The songs start out the stylistically the same, but both go their own way once they hit the chorus.

What I'm most upset about is this is gonna be called the "Song that ripped off Powerman 5000" and its annoying.

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Good King Moggle Mog is indeed based on another song, or perhaps two

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Originally Posted by Chewy2nd

Good King Moggle Mog is indeed based on another song, or perhaps two

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Wait, I'm confused. Are you claiming SE ripped off themselves?

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Originally Posted by Torunya

Wait, I'm confused. Are you claiming SE ripped off themselves?

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No, I'm saying it is based off another song, but it's not based off of A Nightmare Before Christmas, though I know realise, the person I quoted didn't mention that, but I know a lot of other people have, lol.

I know you're be sarcastic but anyone who has seen or even heard Nightmare before Christmas, they're instantly reminded of it when they fight King Mog. All I was saying is that this has happened before so this reaction really isn't needed of "Copying" or "stealing"

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

Regarding the Music for the 2nd Phase of Containment Bay S1T7

I have read through your comments concerning the BGM for the 2nd phase of the Containment Bay S1T7 battle with Sephirot, and I would like to personally explain how the track was conceived.

FINAL FANTASY XIV Producer and Director, Naoki Yoshida

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The fact that the top guy on the totem pole takes time out of his extremely busy day to address his fans about a very concerning issue with a full explanation is a reason why I will continue to give my money to FFXIV and continue to play. Been here since 1.0 and at the end I was on the realm with Yoshida and was able to speak a few words with him. He is real and down to earth. Thank you Yoshida! You are the reason I will always be a fan! :)

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Originally Posted by Tman00

I know you're be sarcastic but anyone who has seen or even heard Nightmare before Christmas, they're instantly reminded of it when they fight King Mog. All I was saying is that this has happened before so this reaction really isn't needed of "Copying" or "stealing"

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Indeed, I was just posting it to make people aware that Good King was actually based on a ongoing Moogle theme throughout the series.

In my opinion, Sephirot's theme starts out similarish to When Worlds Collide, but after that they go off in massively different directions, IMO, When Worlds Collide goes off in a more light direction, while Sephirot's theme remains heavy throughout, I'd hazard a guess that the guys over at Powerman 5000 listened to just the intro when making the post, which, if they did, would explain their reaction, but if you listen any further than that they feel miles apart from each other.

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Originally Posted by Chewy2nd

Indeed, I was just posting it to make people aware that Good King was actually based on a ongoing Moogle theme throughout the series.

In my opinion, Sephirot's theme starts out similarish to When Worlds Collide, but after that they go off in massively different directions, IMO, When Worlds Collide goes off in a more light direction, while Sephirot's theme remains heavy throughout, I'd hazard a guess that the guys over at Powerman 5000 listened to just the intro when making the post, which, if they did, would explain their reaction, but if you listen any further than that they feel miles apart from each other.

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Yeah pretty much. Honestly I think this is just a PR stunt by Powerman 5000 since they've been irreverent for years now. This is a great way to cause a stir and get their names known again and everybody who plays or doesn't play will spread it around like free advertisement all because they said the sue word.

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Originally Posted by Tman00

Yeah pretty much. Honestly I think this is just a PR stunt by Powerman 5000 since they've been irreverent for years now. This is a great way to cause a stir and get their names known again and everybody who plays or doesn't play will spread it around like free advertisement all because they said the sue word.

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Indeed, I honest can't really see them sueing, I can't see a court ruling in their favour, and it'd cost them money I assume they don't really have. It's basically just done to get their name back out there. What really annoys me is they're doing at the expense of Soken's good name.

maybe we're getting skateboard mounts and this is a hint

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Originally Posted by Tman00

What I'm most upset about is this is gonna be called the "Song that ripped off Powerman 5000" and its annoying.

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Which will then be followed by "who the hell is Powerman 5000?". This looks way worse for them than SE, it just comes off as Rob Zombie's lil bro throwing a temper tantrum.

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Originally Posted by Torunya

Wait, I'm confused. Are you claiming SE ripped off themselves?

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He's just unaware it sounds nothing at all like that and everything like "This is Halloween" from Nightmare Before Christmas.

i remember a song in FFXI that sound like the jurassic park theme .....going to edit once i find it ....

yeah cosmic wheel

https://youtu.be/fY3e4a5EwmU?list=PL...83ED64A8&t=134

sounds like stairway to heaven too

:3 FFXI ost's is still one of the best

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Originally Posted by Bracken

maybe we're getting skateboard mounts and this is a hint

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flying skateboards? <yes, please>

My only exposure to PM5K was from the game "Frequency" for PS2, where one of the hardest songs was "Danger is Go".

So. This made me curious so I sat down and listened to it.

First thing is first: I didn't think Powerman 5000 until someone actually talked about it. So I sat and played both. Short of the riff, there's maybe a feel of a homage to the song, and that the song has taken some liberties by using somewhat the same structure of the song, but wow, there's no infringement here. They don't sound alike at all.

You want a song that could have caused you problems if you're S-E? Mog. That's incredibly close to Tim Burton's "This is Hallowe'en" from A Nightmare Before Christmas. Anyone who says that it's a change of the FF5 music is basing it off of one 10 second part of that song and saying "SEE! 8 BIT = THIS SONG! NOT COPYRIGHT!"

...put both together. At the same time. And you will hear the songs be incredibly and eerily similar. THAT is a far better candidate for copyright infringement.

This is, in my view, a complete non issue. There's enough difference that it wouldn't trigger. And I used to listen to Powerman 5000 back in the day. When hearing Sephirot, I never even once thought of Powerman 5000. Mog? I literally yelled out "THIS IS HALLOWE'EN, THIS IS HALLOWE'EN!" when doing the boss the first time.

On that note, I'm indifferent to this song. I preferred Ravana.

Ya honestly, just youtube search "Industrial rock" and you'll notice there are a lot of riffs that sound familar to one another, even the whole steady drum beat in some song.

Our tank immediately said "Wow this is Powerman 5000", but am I the only one who immediately thought "Huh, devil may cry. Cool" ?

This being an SE fan base, I can expect the favouritism to side with SE of course. This is a straight rip off, no matter what anybody in any position at SE says. The chances of a song being this similar by random chance are galactic to say the least. SE should get lawyers stuffed up their rear like they're so fond of doing to fan projects. What a joke.

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Originally Posted by Derceto

This being an SE fan base, I can expect the favouritism to side with SE of course. This is a straight rip off, no matter what anybody in any position at SE says. The chances of a song being this similar by random chance are galactic to say the least. SE should get lawyers stuffed up their rear like they're so fond of doing to fan projects. What a joke.

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Care to actually highlight all the component parts of the song that 'rip off' When Worlds Collide? By my listening the only things that sound anything like it are the chord progression in the first 20 seconds and the style of the vocals. That is not enough to claim anyone copied anything. The odds of TWO components of a song being similar to another are not 'galactic' at all. If anything the song actually sounds more like Rammstein in its later parts.

I didn't even know the Powerman 5000 song, so I had to listen to it (several times) in order to confirm what people have said here and...honestly, I find it hilarious that people are calling the Sephirot theme a rip-off, and that Facebook post about "unimaginative theft" made it even more so. The beginnings are slightly similar, but other than that...come on. Nothing against Powerman 5000, don't even know who they are, but there are worse things to get upset about than some similarity. As a friend put it: music is not infinite, and at one point or another, some songs are gonna sound similar. Deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Derceto

This being an SE fan base, I can expect the favouritism to side with SE of course. This is a straight rip off, no matter what anybody in any position at SE says. The chances of a song being this similar by random chance are galactic to say the least. SE should get lawyers stuffed up their rear like they're so fond of doing to fan projects. What a joke.

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You are aware that Powerman 5000 is catching negative traction on their own facebook, right? Being a fan of one does not exclude you from being a fan of the other, no matter what some random person on a forum says.

Intentionally ostracizing yourself from popular opinion does not, by default, make yours more viable.

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Originally Posted by Derceto

This being an SE fan base, I can expect the favouritism to side with SE of course. This is a straight rip off, no matter what anybody in any position at SE says. The chances of a song being this similar by random chance are galactic to say the least. SE should get lawyers stuffed up their rear like they're so fond of doing to fan projects. What a joke.

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It sounds like you haven't listened to enough music if you really think that. lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92JudNqbPYU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TCZSFdo-QY

The songs definitely sound similar and cannot blame people for accusing it as such. Even Yoshi-P coming out and saying it is just a coincidence does mean they take the issue seriously. I don't think Soken intentionally made the music sound similar and believe they hadn't heard of them. I do think however they will likely be careful on what they take inspiration from. Its hard however since its impossible to make something sound completely original. Everything is inspired by something and down the road we may have something like this once again.

I don't believe Soken is the type to blatantly rip off someone else's work and have it as his own. And I am sure Powerman 5000 is just trying to get some attention since they have not be relevant for a long time. Not bad mind you, just not relevant.

Just remember everyone, Soken has been making music for this game for years now and this is the first time he has come into question like this, so I would definitely give him and his team the benefit of the doubt on this one. If his tracks down the line sound very similar to another track like this, then maybe he can come into question. For now I will just say to keep up the good work, he is doing an incredible job and should be recognized for such. Not this.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

I don't think in the history of accusations like this the line "we weren't aware of your song" has ever changed someone's mind from the course of action they want to take against it.

I don't even think being able to prove that (not that you could) would change how a lawsuit would turn out.

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Actually, "I never heard that song before, I came up with this on my own," is a defense that is used in copyright courts. It then comes down to credibility of the defendant, and the defendant's accessibility to the song will be examined. In this case, as some people have already pointed out, When Worlds Collide hasn't been relevant in almost 2 decades, and given Sokken's Japanese nationality and residence, it's not a stretch to think that he might be telling the truth.

The question of how common certain chord progressions and arrangements are in a given genre is also key there, and again, others have already expressed that, to them, it sounds like many other industrial song. And let's not even get into performance vs. actual composition. All in all, copyright cases are messy and oftentimes, really, REALLY objective. They're either hard as hell to prove or hard as hell to disprove. In this particular case, I doubt it would go to any kind of trial. If the band/record company does anything more than blow hot air on social media (which alone will get them TONS of attention), the whole thing will probably get settled out of court, because it's just cheaper and less complicated that way.

This isnt the first time this has happened, you can clearly hear "inspiration" from other songs throughout sokens XIV work. The blatant fanboyism here supporting this type of "art" is sad and while its not a direct copy worthy of court action I certainly wont be dropping any more money on FF sound tracks with this type of attitude. "Oh yeah all industrial sounds the same, deal with it." Its not surprising when the entire game is loosely based on what wow did in the past. All theme park mmos play the same, deal with it.

Why do you guys seem to think this is all about money or attention? have you ever created something you are proud of weather other ppl like it or not? the negativity on the fb page is coming from the same group of ppl on this forum.

Personally, I heard more of ancient Reznor/original Nine Inch Nails bits and pieces in the song, with smatterings of VNV Nation sprinkled in, mostly having to do with what Lemagex spoke of, but that may be due to the fact that I've been listening to Reznor's music since he started releasing things to the public, and the same with VNV Nation's stuff. Everyone was going off about this Powerman 5000 powertrip before I even got to the Sephirot fight (I'm doing it later today - I have an FC to run, airships to manage, housing stuff to take care of, RP events to schedule, and the MSQ and incorporating it into our events is top priority) so I ended up listening to it once it was up on YouTube...and as mentioned, heard a lot of overtones of Reznor/NIN and had to actually go listen to "Worlds Collide" again to even solidly get how close the first tiny bit of the song was to it. Frankly, if you listen to a whole tonne of industrial music - and lots of non-mainstream (read: not the shit on the public radio) industrial - most of what's in Sephirot's theme is pretty common place and not isolated to one band alone, or even just a few bands. Really, Powerman 5000 doesn't have a rock to stand on in court, and will fail miserably if he tries to take it to court, and likely knows it, which is why he's whining like a baby on social media instead of manning up and trying to do this all the proper way.

I didn't expect that Soken was much of a Powerman fan, I didn't think Powerman really landed well in Japan. Japan has their own industrial underground, with a lot of similar sounds to NA/EU's groups, so it's likely he got his inspirations from there rather than some small time industrial band from America. And yes, frankly, Powerman 5000 is a lower tier industrial group in the grand scheme of things - he couldn't stay relevant like a lot of the bigger guns in the industrial scene.

On an aside, thanks Yoshi-Primal for clearing things up for us, even though your answer was exactly what I expected. <3

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

i remember a song in FFXI that sound like the jurassic park theme .....going to edit once i find it ....

yeah cosmic wheel

https://youtu.be/fY3e4a5EwmU?list=PL...83ED64A8&t=134

sounds like stairway to heaven too

:3 FFXI ost's is still one of the best

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lol, I don't remember that at the time, but I did hear the small little Jurassic Park bit in there ;) Struggling to hear Stairway to Heaven though.


Oh, and I bolded the important part. Thank you for that link! I now have some nice background music to work to :D

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Originally Posted by Raagnar

This isnt the first time this has happened, you can clearly hear "inspiration" from other songs throughout sokens XIV work.

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Assuming it is as clear as you suggest, I'm sure you wouldn't mind listing the Soken songs that you claim were inspired and the songs that inspire them.

If they are that clear, we should all be able to hear the similarities and you won't have to rely on vague accusation.

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Originally Posted by Berethos

Assuming it is as clear as you suggest, I'm sure you wouldn't mind listing the Soken songs that you claim were inspired and the songs that inspire them.

If they are that clear, we should all be able to hear the similarities and you won't have to rely on vague accusation.

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Your fellows have already pointed them all out, go back and read.

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Originally Posted by Raagnar

Your fellows have already pointed them all out, go back and read.

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You mean the people who were pointing out that Moggle Mog's (a moogle) theme in FFXIV is practically the same as the moogle themes from other Final Fantasy games? It's a different context and an obvious intentional reference.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

I don't think in the history of accusations like this the line "we weren't aware of your song" has ever changed someone's mind from the course of action they want to take against it.

I don't even think being able to prove that (not that you could) would change how a lawsuit would turn out.

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I'm in law school, in copyright we hit on this, technically an artist could say "you copied my son" but the person copying having access to the song (listening to it, being there when its written etc) is usually more of a hook line and sinker for the case. First things first this would be an international case regardless, and it would all come down to did Japan sign TRIPs and is it a Berne Country. (Japan is a Berne, TRIPPS, UCC Paris, UCC Geneva and WCT country so they should have maximum international copyright protection and ....sanction)

But for the most part, in courts we are arguing that music is still limited every note variation is out there pretty much (I come from IT, Music and Poli Sci background before entering law school) and there is really no real test. The court might go "oh industrial is a stagnant genre and to my laymen ear all of it sounds the same", judges are not usually musicians at all and they are the ones ruling on it. Its a not a perfect world where two people with musical skill compare the song, instead a judge and maybe an expert or two listens to it, and unless you blatantly copy 3 bars or more, its probably not even going to court.

If I'm kinda vague, I get copyright, but its not my area of expertise, my expertise is Gaming (Gambling) law, I go to the best school in the nation for it (I'm a las vegas local) and the parts I really get about copyright are because dealing with casinos in Vegas = copyright, enterntainment, contracts, tort, administrative etc

Also to clarify you can be completely inspired by someone elses work and have it not be copyright, the only case that says differently is the Estate of Marvin Gaye case and I honestly think Marvin's Gayes Estate is filled with greedy people who can pay whoever they want off to get the verdict they want. the "what is it like" is probably not enough for infringement, the beats of the song are actually different enough to most laymen. Everyone is screaming infringment without actually reading any case law or knowing anything about copyright. Ya'll are funny. The guy I'm quoting though is kinda right "not knowing about the song" isn't a defense, but it can work in your favor just sayin.

TLDR: In copyright law there is no clear and cut "you copied this much of my song its infringment" its all up to the judges laymen ear. One line of lyrics is not typically enough since words are limited, sometimes copying notes isn't even enough because when you break it down there aren't that many note variations that a person could create a new song and have it not share notes with another, its just not possible anymore. The beat of the two songs even to a laymen are not enough alike, they are similar but not enough alike to claim copyright, if you don't know anything about copyright stop talking about it, its widely misunderstood.

This artist probably got more publicity for it, although I played tony hawk back in the day, I didn't know who this guy making crap music even was, especially since no one have given a crap about industrial music since 2004, and I doubt he even as big enough pockets to sue SE for it XD

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Originally Posted by Raagnar

Your fellows have already pointed them all out, go back and read.

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So Good King Moggle Mog and it's similarities to This is Halloween...of course, how it's a remix of an older Moogle song has been pointed out and a quick listen to both reveals how different they really are.

You said songs. Like I said, name them or you've got nothing but vague accusation.

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Originally Posted by Raagnar

This isnt the first time this has happened, you can clearly hear "inspiration" from other songs throughout sokens XIV work. The blatant fanboyism here supporting this type of "art" is sad and while its not a direct copy worthy of court action I certainly wont be dropping any more money on FF sound tracks with this type of attitude. "Oh yeah all industrial sounds the same, deal with it." Its not surprising when the entire game is loosely based on what wow did in the past. All theme park mmos play the same, deal with it.

Why do you guys seem to think this is all about money or attention? have you ever created something you are proud of weather other ppl like it or not? the negativity on the fb page is coming from the same group of ppl on this forum.

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You sir, the only person who understand this is not worthy of court action. It does suck he's copying but seriously court action how much do people not understand copyright in this forum, answer: 99.9% At the end of the day is some musician no one cares about anymore trying to get more publicity and its working.

Two pieces of "music" comprised of a guy yelling into a mic to a rapid beat end up sounding similar. News at 11.