If they modified DRK's abilities to inflict magic vulnerability on the target periodically (say tie it to Blood Weapon), then there's some utility right there. The raid-wide DPS boost that would come from that could easily be tuned to match WAR's raw DPS output (possibly even beating it in some comps), and it could amplify coordination to boot. PLD's utility might even need a boost to help them keep up (maybe).
(and yes, Syz, I know your guide says to drop Grit while MT when you can to use Blood Weapon so you can go crazier with your MP, but most DRKs I've seen don't do that, and only use Blood Weapon while OT - it would just be an added boost to those of you whose healers enable you to pull that off)
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02-23-2016, 03:43 AMJpec07
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02-23-2016, 03:59 AMMagiusNecros
What if Power Slash applied Int Down(So it has similiar function to the PLD's RoH) and Delirium inflicted Magic Vulnerability(Similar to a WAR's Storm's Eye but for magical damage)?
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02-23-2016, 04:01 AMTanathyaNo thanks, don't ever make the enmity combo have any utility beyond grabbing hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
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02-23-2016, 04:07 AMSpookyGhost
Take RoH's STR down, throw it on RA, and lower Path slightly. That'd balance that bit, at least.
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02-23-2016, 04:12 AMFinalWolfAs much as I want this they probably won't ever do itQuote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
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02-23-2016, 05:27 AMTouchandFeel
I think that the most appropriate way to slot in more utility would be through DA usage, Blood Price, Blood Weapon or maybe even a combo of both since those are a big focus for DRK's mechanics.
Random off-the-cuff, half-thought out ideas as potential jumping off points for brainstorming of better ideas.
- DA+Reprisal allows you to use Reprisal without relying on a parry proc, essentially allowing to take a potential slight dps or defense loss for utility gain.
- DA+Plunge applies a magic vulnerability debuff (6-8%, instead of 10% for balance considerations).
- DA+Salted Earth provides a HP regen buff to all allies in its field.
- DA+Salted Earth provides a MP refresh buff to all allies in its field (may be weird as casters tend to be farther away and Salted Earth has a very confined range).
- DA+Salted Earth places a magic vulnerability debuff of X% on enemies within the field.
- DA+Blood Price results in the additional effect that every time the DRK is hit and Blood Price restores some of the DRK's MP it restores X% of the MP or HP of allies within Y yalms.
- DA+Blood Weapon: Gains the additional effect that when Blood Weapon is activated it applies the buff "Dark Celerity" that increases attack speed (or skill speed) by X% for all allies within Y yalms for the duration of Blood Weapon.
I do like a lot of the other ideas that have been tossed out and would be happy with many of them, just wanted to throw out some extra ideas that I haven't seen mentioned. -
02-23-2016, 05:48 AMWolfKid
Blood Battle: "Release a wave of shadows enveloping party members, increasing their attack speed by 10%, while reducing action cost of TP/MP by 20%".
Duration: 15s
Recast: 180s
That is all. -
02-23-2016, 11:31 AMBrian_The point is this -- I will have a raid spot regardless of the job I am playing. This has nothing to do with my current static -- a static I have only been with since a month or two into HW. So, I have no vested interest in the balance of the jobs or anything to gain from lobbying for a specific job. As a result, I have no bias.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starbirth
You can continue to blame your lack of progression on the job you play but as many others have repeatedly said, outside of world progression with exceptional players, most balance issues don't matter. I don't see any world progression players in any topic worrying about losing their raid spot because of these changes.
So I take a step back just like I do in any topic about PLD or WAR and I can see many blatant flaws caused by individual biases. DRK when tanking gritless is the highest individual DPS tank. They are also half of the highest raid DPS tank pairing and half of the highest raid mitigation tank pairing. To me, that seems to be a pretty damn good position if all you are concerned about is whether or not they are raid viable. They are raid viable.
What I don't agree with is the separation of OT and MT utility. No such separation exists in real content. Tank utility is tank utility. Overall balance is what matters.
You should probably not throw terms around you do not understand. It only makes you look stupid. Power creep in relation to game design does not mean what you think it means. When you buff something outside of the meta, that is not power creep. When you buff something or release a stronger version of something within the meta, that is power creep. Buffing PLDs when PLDs are not a viable tank in the progression meta is not power creep. If you buffed DRK, a viable tank within the progression meta, that would be power creep. Adding more utility to a tank job that is already a staple within the meta is power creep. -
02-23-2016, 11:48 AMValkyrie-Amber
So umm people claim plds have large party utility skills.
lets see rage of harlone: single target 10% dmg down debuff in old days pre hw you could just roh several mobs but now we have a few other important combos to use.
cover: well if someones about to die and healer fails to heal them fast enougth can save, combine that with hallowed 2 immortal objects 10 sec.
Devine Veil: basicly party stoneskin after reciveing a cure but its 10% based off plds hp.
Clemency: now with 2 second cast could becomesomewhat better but can still only use 2 in a chain till not enougth mp.
and the buffs people want for Dark is like damage boosters and wars slashing debuff..... I think utility like that is far more better anything plds have if you have good healers you all know right?
If drk got a slashing debuff then pld would always be sidelined worse than in 3.1.... ballance please concider it when thinking up buffs for your class....
All PLDs utility is healing surport...
Wars is slashing debuff and drks want to be like wars. so if dark got a buff like storms eye where would PLD go?
Cause all darks seem to want a actual usefull utility over pld fluff if healers are good in party... -
02-23-2016, 12:19 PMSyzygianI'd imagine most DRKs out there wanting a slashing debuff just want to be able to be in a raid group with you PLDs and not have both of our personal DPS be screwed by 10%, short of asking a NIN to shaft themselves by 60 potency every other combo by using a suboptimal rotation (this would make NINs happy too, as they could then enjoy additional AE regardless of if a WAR is there or not).Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber
Its a benefit to you guys as well. It means you PLDs can be in a group with DRK -OR- WAR and get your 10% that you rightfully deserve. It wouldn't sideline PLDs and it would do nothing for DRK/WAR comps because the effects would not stack. Please, please stop being such a Bitter Britney. Us DRKs just wanna raid with you PLDs too, without us both being gimped.
I personally would love getting Cover during a fat physical TB, or to enjoy a sweet DV during a big raid-nuke. But I never see those things (outside the DF, anyway) because I main DRK and I need a WAR in order to bring the most to my group.
While I can think of many more creative ways to give DRK OT utility, giving it a slashing debuff would actually fix *many* problems. -
02-23-2016, 12:51 PMCarstienAhh, I see. That's actually a really good idea, my mistake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
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02-23-2016, 02:18 PMValkyrie-Amber
well I wasn’t the only one who misread but yeah.
That one subjection alone would allow for better party choice in what classes to take.
but I will add a change that would work well :
remove monks int down debuff and leave blunt resist debuff only and give pld's Royal authority the same int down debuff cause that way both pld and drk will always be a viable choice to go with number 1 tank warrior.
and another buff if only was possible.... if party goes drk pld for some strange reason....
make royal authority ability switch to slashing debuff if a drk is the other tank. if other tank in party is war make it only int debuff.
That way all tank compositions are viable.
oh and also remove slashing debuff from nin and let tanks do them debuffs -
02-23-2016, 02:18 PMBrian_This post I think summarizes this topic quite well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
You do realize that to accomplish that same goal, they could also give PLDs more value, right?
Between PLDs and DRKs, one of those two tanks were actually already a favored tank. And, it wasn't PLD.
But no, because of biases, this topic is about DRK rather than the tanking dynamic overall.
You could easily flip this argument and say that the reason PLD + DRK doesn't work is because of the PLD. DRK already has a place within the meta. PLD is the one that doesn't. I'm not suggesting they do what I'm about to say at all but you could just buff PLD out the ass and suddenly WAR might fall out of the meta. DRKs would still be the go-to MT, PLDs actually see play as the go-to OT, and WARs would be left out in the cold. Flip that scenario around and buff DRKs out the ass instead and PLDs would go extinct because DRK + WAR would become an even more dominant tank pairing.
And, yet, we think DRK is the reason DRK + PLD doesn't work.
Like I've said many times, we don't know exactly how the tanking meta will change in Midas so I think it's hard to say anything for certain. But, as I said already, DRK is already part of the two major progression raid set-ups -- they are part of the highest raid DPS set-up and they are part of the highest raid mitigation set-up.
I think this topic misses the point about tank balance overall by a country mile. To steer it to that point from the topic of DRK OT viability is stupid. -
02-23-2016, 02:33 PMAI_wass
I don't see what your issue is. Why shouldn't all tanks be not only viable, but desirable, in both MT and OT slots? Why does one always have to have their guaranteed spot, while the other two have fight for theirs?
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02-23-2016, 02:52 PMBrian_My points are thus --Quote:
Originally Posted by AI_wass
MT and OT should not be the focus of any discussion about tank balance.
If you want to discuss tank balance, then you need to look at overall raid composition balance because it is about overall balance.
We do not know what raid comp balance will look like in Midas yet. We will have to see patch 3.2 play out a bit before conclusions can be drawn about the balance changes. But, let's just look at the current state of raiding --
If you buff DRK's OT utility, does that make PLD + DRK just as desired as DRK + WAR? Why would it? For a lot of fights -- and there is no reason to think this trend will change -- both tanks spend significant time OTing and MTing. Many times, the line is blurred because tanks will MT in their DPS stance. So, if you buff DRK OT utility, you are actually also buffing DRK + WAR comps -- the already preferred raiding comp. This is what happens when you are blind to the bigger picture and ask for such a specific thing when it's hardly the actual problem.
If you just want DRKs to have more OT utility because you're playing favorites, then okay. But, don't claim it's about tank balance. -
02-23-2016, 03:48 PMSyzygianJust saying, but if you gave DRK (or PLD) a slashing debuff, that wouldn't buff DRK(PLD)/WAR combos at all. I feel the urge to remind you of what we DO know about this coming raid tier: 1. Lighter on the DPS checks and 2. Less magical damage, more physical. DRKs are wholly within reason to start looking at their OT utility questioningly at this point if they are looking for a group, as they are likely not to be the ideal MT option anymore given those 2 tidbits we have been given about the upcoming raids.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
And of course, anyone with basic knowledge of math can deduce that most balance issues are moot after the progression cycle is over. But the example of progression raiders trickles down to the masses, for better or for worse, even if its wholly unnecessary. Everyone wants to mimic what they do/did to get the best possible results. I'm not saying that's right or even smart, but it happens. That's why I made this thread. Like I said, I'm in a group with a WAR and I'm the default MT of said group, this actually effects me very little. That doesn't mean I don't have my fingers on the pulse of the people.
So raid composition balance...
Is there any situation where a DRK/PLD combination would bring superior raid mitigation and/or raid DPS over DRK/WAR or PLD/WAR, through the remaining composition of the raid (healers/dps) etc. or otherwise? I'm genuinely asking, maybe you can enlighten me. No group wants to gimp themselves if they can help it, especially in this game where true alts aren't actually a thing and you can have every job on any character - and even if its moot after progression, more casual and/or midcore raiders want ideal comps to make up for the fact that... well, generally, they're less skilled (or have less time, which means more time to get rusty between raid days). I don't disregard things just because they don't effect the top 1%. -
02-23-2016, 04:14 PMBrian_
It depends on what skill you add the slashing debuff to. It potentially is a buff to DRK / WAR comps. If you just throw the slashing debuff onto Delirium, WARs can choose to maintain Path if general raid damage is just consistently high in new content without sacrificing as much DPS and aggro generation or they can just full-time BB for a gain in overall potency if aggro is not an issue (either because there is a forced difference in boss up-time or the WAR is currently tanking). I'm sure a lot of WARs would salivate at the idea of a full BB berserk window either for DPS or for opening enmity generation. If WARs are able to maintain path in their enmity rotation without losing eye they can drop Defiance earlier in the progression cycle if damage is too high otherwise. As is, WARs dislike putting path up outside of situations where it's necessary because it's a DPS / aggro loss.
Meanwhile, for PLD + DRK comps, it's only a gain in that you let the NIN AE instead of DE. Is that really a big difference from how much it benefits WAR + DRK comps? Probably not.
As for PLD + DRK, like I said before, they are the highest raid eHP set-up. You can have Reprisal, Delirium, a few extra SSs, and Divine Veil. That's 10% damage reduction, 10% stat reduction, a few 1k+ shields, and a what will be a 2k+ group shield in 3.2.
In a DRK + WAR comp, you will have 10% damage reduction, 10% damage reduction, and Delirium. This might look like more mitigation but Divine Veil mitigates more damage from a single attack than Path ever will. Elysium's world first A4S team was actually constantly asking themselves if they had enough raid DPS to carry a PLD and MNK to A4S because they really wanted Divine Veil for the bigger coordinated raid mitigation it provides (and the MNK was then mandatory for the INT debuff) for the 4th leg's Mortal Revolution.
In a WAR + PLD comp, without a MNK, you will only have 10% damage reduction, a few extra SSs, and Divine Veil. With a MNK you have the same raid eHP as a DRK + PLD comp but lose either DRG or NIN. We already saw this comp fall out of favor in 3.0 because of that sacrifice. The changes in 3.1 and 3.2 were targeted at bringing this comp back in line with the other comps. -
02-23-2016, 04:33 PMPhoeniciaActually with a MCH, you can drop the caster for a third melee and end up with the highest DPS combination in game. That is even before Hypercharge buffs. You only lose on whatever little utility casters bring. MCH LB covers for caster LB. Only real need to break that is if you have physical resistant adds/phases where magical DPS is required.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
As a matter of fact I was discussing changing to BRD or NIN instead of my caster with my static. -
02-24-2016, 04:13 AMMikeZuluI do like reprisal as a mitigation and a powerful off gcd. I mean when Warrior does storms path it will be a dps loss rather than rotating between butchers block and storms eye but its possible 100% up time on Storms Path. Reprisal while not able to be up 100% or even up at specific times it is a damage increase to the Dark to use it. So thats where I see the trade off as. I mean if Dark Knight could be changed to have more up time/choice with applying reprisal and near 100% uptime on Delirium then that would be powerful. too powerful mitigation and utility wise. 10% int down and 10% damage down? theres your go to tank now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynric
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02-24-2016, 05:11 AMCynricThe problem isn't that reprisal has to be proc'd or that reprisal doesn't have 100% uptime theoretically.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeZulu
The problem is reprisal can only be proc'd while MTing. If it relied on parry while MT and inside grit, and using Delirium/Soul Eater/Unmend/etc. to get a proc while not in grit that'd be different. It'd still be comparable but the uptime would be similar and it wouldn't exactly be the same as path, but it'd at least be usable OT. It'd be nice if the time you could use to use reprisal after a proc was a little longer. -
02-24-2016, 06:00 AMMikeZuluYeah I agree in an Ot role Dark Knights cannot utilize reprisal. Dark Knights are best optimized in MT roles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynric
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02-24-2016, 06:06 AMRagology
In order to proc reprisals while off tanking, would it be practical for a DRK to position themselves in front of the boss? (kind of like how in the early days of " a relic reborn the hydra" the two tanks could split cleave damage by standing near each other)
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02-24-2016, 06:09 AMMikeZuluwell if the boss cleaves its possible but not practical to take that damage when the healers are already most likely busy. Dark Knights are just better as main tanks. Reprisal is only useful for physical damage too you cant parry magic attacks. Reprisal would be better on a simple damage taken proc or just a cd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragology
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02-24-2016, 01:20 PMRecklessLion
Brian made valid points......a lot of things are being overlooked just because it's not easy access like others. I don't think DRK needs utility all because DRK handles mobs the best, AoE kings as a tank and mitigate magic best so now you want utility for because WAR has utility? Starting to sound like two year old screaming "mine" and "give me". SE is not balancing tanks or any class for reasons it would destroy the game flexibility to reach out and do something new. The game isn't about optimal parties....
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02-24-2016, 02:11 PMFallenWings
Random thought but what if, stay with me here, what if you could cast Sole Survivor on an ally, transferring 20% of your health to them. Reducing your health for a pretty good mitigation tool for another person. Cast on MT or cast on a fragile ally. Or cast on a mob to regain the normal benefits.
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02-24-2016, 05:47 PMDuelleThe point I was making is that claiming DPS is not an issue and focusing on utility between the tanks is folly. Every aspect of the three jobs need to be looked at as of now. I wouldn't imply DRK should be left to be useless while OT, and frankly speaking group comps should not hinge so much on who is doing the tanking so long as someone is doing the tanking. In other words, it shouldn't matter which combination of tanks you bring to a raid, and all should yield equal chances of success to a raid group.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
The only thing I can think of would be to use Dark Arts as a way to bypass the proc requirements of Riposte (the ability would have to be renamed if they went this route). Mind you, to me the ability in its current state is counter-intuitive to how procs generally work so I'd be in favor of the ability being reconceptualized.Quote:
In the spirit of evenhandedness- DRK's MT utility is fine. You have an INT RoH, and a non-combo-locked, oGCD Path at no cost to DPS (with the caveat of needing a parry, which is not hard to get at all on DRK), all on the same tank, and both stackable with RoH and SP (synergy!). That's good. Its competitive. And you don't need to make Reprisal usable as an OT to fix this (although that'd be the boring easy way out that SE would undoubtedly gobble up, and the most common (uncreative) suggestion people seem to make), otherwise I'd have named it "Dear Square-Enix: You Forgot About Making Reprisal Usable As An Off-Tank", but you need to give it *something* else. That would actually make DRK unique among the tanks as it would give it different utility depending on OT or MT. Which would be interesting. But I digress.
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Admittedly, putting such focus on utility in tank design has proven to not be a good idea. Perhaps we'd be better off if the design emphasized "inward" gameplay mechanics and simply got rid of debuffs that affected more than just the tank. Sure, in this context it means removing the debuffs from Halone, Storm's Path and Delirium along with making Riposte a self-mitigation cooldown. You'd still have Divine Veil and Clemency to contend with (as a PLD I'd be fine with changing them in some way to create parity between the tanks), but that's for another discussion.
We could end up going the other direction and give WAR/PLD/DRK their own utility and limiting them to that. Have PLD keep Divine Veil, give WAR the ability to temporarily increase their party's max HP, give DRK the ability to temporarily lower enemy damage dealt to the party, balancing the three cooldowns to offer the same level of group mitigation. Of course, that turns into a slippery slope because when you decide to add Samurai, Beastmaster and Dancer to the tank pool, your chances of overlap are pretty damn high. -
02-24-2016, 09:04 PMReynhartWe want something specifically when OT to stop pigeonholing each tanks in a specific spot. Each one should offer something as a MT and something as an OT.Quote:
Originally Posted by RecklessLion
And I'm pretty sure it would please some WAR to take more MT spot when paired with another job without screaming "abysmally suboptimal"