PLD 4.0

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Would be nice if it was kept on GCD but made a conal AoE...(With reduced potency, of course)

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That definitely would be rad.

AoE that uses MP, give me a reason to need that Riot Blade MP restore.

A small AoE heal or regen to keep it in line with the healing/defense tank.

Clemency insta-cast or offGCD or the result of a proc--pretty much anything aside from how it's used now. cast time being so long and interruptible has made it very hard to use effectively.

Could add to the aoe heal thought with aoe bubble that boosts skills speed or something

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Would be nice if [Shield Swipe] was kept on GCD but made a conal AoE...(With reduced potency, of course)

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Could even go half and half, so it's still usable filler.

Shield Swipe - Weaponskill - Delivers and attack with a potency of 115 in a cone to all enemies before you. Damage doubled against the main target. Additional Effect: Increased enmity.
(Total potency done to main target: 230. Now even with the average potency of a Royal Authority combo). Costs 50 TP, up from 40.

[RA does 3.6 potency per TP. This would now do 4.6, down just slightly from 5.3 as per 210 potency for 40 TP.]

Edit: To be honest Shield Swipe might not even need RA-combo-average potency, as long as you are able to do more Royal Authority combos as a result of using Swipe, such that it has at least faintly greater overall contribution than RA-combo-average.

220 potency feels like the minimum though, given how much we all hate to lose dps, especially if RoH were eventually buffed.I realize this is literally agonizing over 10 potency in design, but it would otherwise be agonizing over 10 potency in practice.
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All this shield swipe talk makes me want actual differences between the shield types in regards to Swipe and possibly even Bash, though...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

All this shield swipe talk makes me want actual differences between the shield types in regards to Swipe and possibly even Bash, though...

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yes, they should modify skillspeed based on their size. Ranging from +5% for bucklers to -10% for full size scutums

Oh man, my PLD Wishlist is pretty big. I don't take credit to having thought up of anything this, some of it is just repeating earlier said stuff or finding it somewhere, some of it I thought of. None of this will ever happen though.

More AoEs!!

Savage Blade should hit 2 additional targets for 50 potency. Main target potency reduced by 25 and RoH and RA increased by 25 to compensate. IMO all cleave looking animations should cleave

Circle of Scorn CD reduced to 15 sec. Lets you refresh DOT and press something more frequently.

Maybe Flash doing minor damage? (would rather have the above 2 options so you don't spam 1 ability for aoe and run out of MP for next pull)

More Emphasis on Shields

Magic Attacks being blockable (only targeted obvious blockable ones like Fire and Blizzard, not Paralysis or AoE magics from bosses)
C'mon Paladins aren't just Gladiators, they should be able to use some Holy magic to block/absorb magic.

Bulwark reduced to 90 sec cd, Rampart increased to 120 sec to compensate. (nerf me more if you have to, blocking is awesome)

Shield Slam purging enemy debuffs like Haste. (lol maybe op and obviously not dispelling something that breaks encounter mechanics)

Cover effect extended to magic (since we would be able to block them)

More/Better Options on Cross Class Skills

Raise being cast in combat

Esuna being cross skilled (would be nice)

Don't mind losing Stoneskin, stone doesn't really fit the fantasy of PLD anyways.

Fracture being longer, maybe it still won't be used, but at least make it a viable option

TP Management

Shield Swipe or Riot Blade(in addition to MP) regenerating some TP (20 TP?)

Other Stuff

Tempered Will having a Surecast effect

Sword Oath and Shield Oath not breaking combos

Shield Oath not having such a penalty on DPS (15 or 10%)

Rage of Halone reducing int and dex in addition to str by 10%

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

yes, they should modify skillspeed based on their size. Ranging from +5% for bucklers to -10% for full size scutums

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I've personally always been a fan of differing weaponspeed recasts, such on Swipe that a buckler practically works like an oGCD, a kite shield just short of a GCD, and a tower shield just over a GCD, for differing potencies, TP costs, and pacification times (i.e. 8s via Tower, 6s via buckler).

Unless there's a lot more Sword and Board integration though, I don't see why the shields would affect actual skill speed, or anything other than the shield moves themselves.

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Originally Posted by Link594

Oh man, my PLD Wishlist is pretty big. I don't take credit to having thought up of anything this, some of it is just repeating earlier said stuff or finding it somewhere, some of it I thought of. None of this will ever happen though.

More AoEs!!

Savage Blade should hit 2 additional targets for 50 potency. Main target potency reduced by 25 and RoH and RA increased by 25 to compensate. IMO all cleave looking animations should cleave

Circle of Scorn CD reduced to 15 sec. Lets you refresh DOT and press something more frequently.

Maybe Flash doing minor damage? (would rather have the above 2 options so you don't spam 1 ability for aoe and run out of MP for next pull)

More Emphasis on Shields

Magic Attacks being blockable (only targeted obvious blockable ones like Fire and Blizzard, not Paralysis or AoE magics from bosses)
C'mon Paladins aren't just Gladiators, they should be able to use some Holy magic to block/absorb magic.

Bulwark reduced to 90 sec cd, Rampart increased to 120 sec to compensate. (nerf me more if you have to, blocking is awesome)

Shield Slam purging enemy debuffs like Haste. (lol maybe op and obviously not dispelling something that breaks encounter mechanics)

More/Better Options on Cross Class Skills

Raise being cast in combat

Esuna being cross skilled (would be nice)

Don't mind losing Stoneskin, stone doesn't really fit the fantasy of PLD anyways.

Fracture being longer, maybe it still won't be used, but at least make it a viable option

TP Management

Shield Swipe or Riot Blade(in addition to MP) regenerating some TP (20 TP?)

Other Stuff

Tempered Will having a Surecast effect

Sword Oath and Shield Oath not breaking combos

Shield Oath not having such a penalty on DPS (15 or 10%)

Cover effect extended to magic (since we would be able to block them)

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Just a few notes on these:
1. SB potency wouldn't necessarily be overpowered, especially at such a low cleave potency, even if its main potency were left the same. Moreover, you're going to lose out more than you're thinking here by shifting 25 potency from SB to RA to compensate, just because RA has no enmity modifier. Definitely a fan of all cleave-looking abilities cleaving, though, and SB seems the most popular choice among GLD abilities of late.
2. One of things that's interesting about GLD/PLD oGCDs is that they all contribute identical single-target potency per second at the moment (150 per 15, 250 per 25, 300 per 30), if used ideally (full health SW, Swipe used instantly upon CD refresh). CoS is already the strongest oGCD, even in single target, just because it has none of the limitations of the other two.
3. If it dealt damage, it would also break CCs.

1. Would be nice. One of my favorite suggestions was to just place all magics somewhere along a spectrum between purely aetherial (Unmend, Bio, Fire) and purely manifest (Stone, e.g. magically flinging a giant, very much physical, boulder).
2. That would be pretty OP at that point unless average block chance were reduced to compensate, which would then just give you a feeling of being half-assed whenever Bulwark is on CD, especially if blocking were more important to GLDs/PLDs.
3. Well, it is the same TP cost and potency, basically, as One-Ilm Punch. But, it already comes with a stun, which is practically taking up to 6 seconds off all its buffs anyways.

1. /shrug
2. Can't deny that.
3. Element aside, I'm not sure why a 10%HP shield would feel unlike a Knight or Paladin.
4. Just beware that when you lengthen any duration, it messes with the classes that already use the ability, e.g. Monks. I think it would be wiser just to raise the DoT's per tick potency from 20 to 25, increasing the total damage from 220 to 250 such that it's still TP-inefficient, but at least over RA-average potency.

1. It makes no sense for a weaponskill to generate flat TP. At that point you should just reduce its cost instead. The same could be said for Shield Swipe if it was made a viable weaponskill at below-average TP cost. Aside from that though, if you allowed blocking for all magic attacks, Swipe still wouldn't balance PLD TP-generation specifically around physical fights, which would otherwise be the main downside of this.

1. Great.
2. Our Oath-swaps are still pretty good as is. We also have the option at least of dropping Shield Oath just before finishing our combo and then popping Sword Oath before the next (well, next-next) AA, which largely mitigates the combo-cost. The GCD loss itself may be a bigger factor in most cases. Just throwing info/ideas out there.
3. Could also limit it to weaponskills, reducing its penalty to effectively 13% or so.
4. Makes sense, given the first, but would come with costs in certain rare situations (e.g. where splitting damage between two tanks from a mixed magic/physical boss would have been preferable).

I want to ride my chocobo or warhorse or unicorn or whatever while I fight. Paladins are knights so we should ride things ♘♞♘♞♘♞♘♞♘♞♘♞. Maybe make it into a cooldown that replaces some abilities with stronger mounted versions temporarily. Also maybe allow us to choose from a list of a few mounts (company/legacy/black choco, unicorn, pegasus, elemental horses, GC horses). It might be a lot of effort animation-wise but they've taken a lot of shortcuts with paladin animations (rampart/sent are the same thing, bulwark/awareness are very similar, sword/shield oath are the same while other stances aren't).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Just a few notes on these:
1. SB potency wouldn't necessarily be overpowered, especially at such a low cleave potency, even if its main potency were left the same. Moreover, you're going to lose out more than you're thinking here by shifting 25 potency from SB to RA to compensate, just because RA has no enmity modifier. Definitely a fan of all cleave-looking abilities cleaving, though, and SB seems the most popular choice among GLD abilities of late.
2. One of things that's interesting about GLD/PLD oGCDs is that they all contribute identical single-target potency per second at the moment (150 per 15, 250 per 25, 300 per 30), if used ideally (full health SW, Swipe used instantly upon CD refresh). CoS is already the strongest oGCD, even in single target, just because it has none of the limitations of the other two.
3. If it dealt damage, it would also break CCs.


2. That would be pretty OP at that point unless average block chance were reduced to compensate, which would then just give you a feeling of being half-assed whenever Bulwark is on CD, especially if blocking were more important to GLDs/PLDs.
3. Well, it is the same TP cost and potency, basically, as One-Ilm Punch. But, it already comes with a stun, which is practically taking up to 6 seconds off all its buffs anyways.

3. Element aside, I'm not sure why a 10%HP shield would feel unlike a Knight or Paladin.

1. It makes no sense for a weaponskill to generate flat TP. At that point you should just reduce its cost instead. The same could be said for Shield Swipe if it was made a viable weaponskill at below-average TP cost. Aside from that though, if you allowed blocking for all magic attacks, Swipe still wouldn't balance PLD TP-generation specifically around physical fights, which would otherwise be the main downside of this.

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The problem with the cleave is that you don't want people to leave out the 3rd combo ability just to increase their DPS in AoE scenarios. With 175 on the target and 50 on 2 aditional targets, Rage of Halone would be better because its improved potency would be 285 as opposed to Savage Blade cleave 275.
You do lose out a little when you are doing RA combo because of the enmity modifier, but if you just use Halone for enmity, you don't lose out there.

You do have a good point about the CoS being too strong, for single target. Maybe PLD could use a buff? Can't give you an argument other PLD could use a buff, but I don't know how much stronger this would be and the impact it could have vs other tanks' DPS. Would have to be tested.

Good point about Flash, I wouldn't like for it to do damage either, would rather have the Savage Blade cleave or a better CoS.

For Bulwark, you can just reduce the block percentage from 60% to 50% or 40% to make it a little less stronger for a more active ability. Maybe increase block by 40% with a CD of 60 sec? I'm sure with testing and tuning you could make it work.

For Shield Slam, good point. I'm also not sure how much of an impact it would have in PvP.

The 10% HP shield doesn't feel unlike a Paladin, its just that the stone element does. If it didn't have an element similar to Protect, I wouldn't have a problem.

For TP Management, you have a good point. I just feel like you would just be delaying the amount of time it takes to run out of TP. Running out of TP really sucks, and I wish there was a way to effectively restore it without just spamming Flash or casting spells lol.

Didn't quote the whole post, just the things I addressed and commented on.

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Originally Posted by Link594

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To be honest, I kind of like the idea of that choice (of going just for Savage Blade each time for cleave priority). And if you're going for some manner of AoE parity, it would need to be stronger still, and/or truly allow that choice. You could always mess with GLD/PLD internal mechanics as well. I played around with some PLD cleave ideas a while back, listed in the signature if you're interested (toggleable weaponskill cleave on all Sword Oath attacks, and finally settled on Shield Swipe cleave in Shield Oath - see the "3.2 patchnotes I'd like to see" section). So many options for this stuff.

Heck, just imagine if we took GLD's fast-hitting motif and actually made Fast Blade have a shortened weaponskill recast, increased Riot Blade's MP return and either slapped on a debuff-extender (for Heavy, Slows, and/or Paralyze) or a light, short bleed [Goring could then cleave-extend all bleeds you caused in addition to bleeding the main target], and Savage Blade was a 200-potency cleave. Either improve the current mana uses slightly or give us another offensive, possibly AoE, option to spend mana on. Now you'd really have a choice in where to end your combo.

As for Bulwark, I feel like this would reduce the gap, which is good, but the same time, we do of course still want it to be noticeable. I'm not sure without trying to create a variety of situations/simulations in my head just what block rate increase, for how long, and how frequently, would feel best, or if it'd be good to steal some ability value off Rampart, etc., to support that. As long as Yoshi keeps to his statement that magic will never be blockable, though, I'd be much less comfortable with the idea of siphoning strength from more reliable and un-niched mitigation tools to support a physical-only one, even if essential to internal mechanics (through blocks).

[Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on shield balance at the moment, given that Shelltron favors towers, average mitigation favors kites, and if Swipe (if it were both worthwhile and without a CD, such as if it were a 230-potency weaponskill) favors bucklers? Does that basically work already, in your opinion, or should each of those abilities have an internal balance to favor all shield types more equally?]

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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Wow, lots of stuff to reply to.

As for the first point, I don't like the idea of ignoring the glowing 3rd ability and just alternate between 2 abilities for cleave. I think you should finish the combo so you are pressing more buttons and not breaking combos. Breaking combos should feel punishing imo.

I think a really good idea would be to have another 3rd combo ability called Whirling Blade or Whirlwind that just does AoE all around you and has a spin attack animation that follows Savage Blade.

I will definitely check out the link tomorrow and get back to you, but I have to sleep to go to work tomorrow :(

For Bulwark, none of my suggestions would work unless magic attacks are blockable, because siphoning from rampart to make Bulwark better would be a huge no-no since Rampart affects magical attacks and Bulwark doesn't. You would definitely have to have different iterations of Bulwark and test them all to see which feels best though. I think a 90 sec Bulwark with an increase of 50% block rate for 15 sec would be fine but I obviously have no idea until you test it and make sure its balanced in relation to the other tanks. And then make Rampart have a longer CD to compensate a more available Bulwark of course. You can even change Shield Oath to instead increase block chance by 20% instead of flatly reducing it.

IMO, I feel like WAR should be the king of physical mitigation, DRK the king of magical mitigation, and PLD being a middle of the road mitigation and I think magical blocking and a focus on blocking would be the best way to do that. It also makes our playstyle focused on blocking more unique.

I would hope that Yoshi sees that magic blocking is not that outlandish, and it fits the fantasy of the class. Paladins in WoW can block magic attacks through a talent called Holy Shield (sounds familiar?), and I always thought it fits the lore because Paladins are supposed to be these holy warriors that can utilize magic to defend themselves against magic. FF PLDs use MP, and have these holy abilities such as Flash and CoS, Hallowed Ground and Spirits Within so it makes sense.

As for Shield Balance, I think that we shouldn't complicate shield types because we don't want to make the class more in depth then the other tanking classes. It wouldn't be fair to them lol. I think they should have a slight difference but not a noticeable difference, similar to racial stats. Another point to make is you can have a buckler equipped but glamoured to a tower, and then the graphic isn't matching the shield type bonus anymore. So, it would be nice if there is a slight difference, but I wouldn't want it to be meta-defining so PLDs are this class that has more depth to it when it comes to weapon selection then WAR or DRK. I mean we already are the only job that has off hands. Let's not abuse it lol

I'll prob repost my updated wishlist later updated with your feedback, and I'll take a look at the link before I do so I'll keep that in mind.

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Originally Posted by Link594

Wow, lots of stuff to reply to.

(1) As for the first point, I don't like the idea of ignoring the glowing 3rd ability and just alternate between 2 abilities for cleave. I think you should finish the combo so you are pressing more buttons and not breaking combos. Breaking combos should feel punishing imo.

I think a really good idea would be to have another 3rd combo ability called Whirling Blade or Whirlwind that just does AoE all around you and has a spin attack animation that follows Savage Blade.

(2) IMO, I feel like WAR should be the king of physical mitigation, DRK the king of magical mitigation, and PLD being a middle of the road mitigation and I think magical blocking and a focus on blocking would be the best way to do that. It also makes our playstyle focused on blocking more unique.

(3) I would hope that Yoshi sees that magic blocking is not that outlandish, and it fits the fantasy of the class. Paladins in WoW can block magic attacks through a talent called Holy Shield (sounds familiar?), and I always thought it fits the lore because Paladins are supposed to be these holy warriors that can utilize magic to defend themselves against magic. FF PLDs use MP, and have these holy abilities such as Flash and CoS, Hallowed Ground and Spirits Within so it makes sense.

(4) You can even change Shield Oath to instead increase block chance by 20% instead of flatly reducing [damage taken].

(5) As for Shield Balance, I think that we shouldn't complicate shield types because we don't want to make the class more in depth then the other tanking classes. It wouldn't be fair to them lol.

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(2) It's actually the blocking, as compared to the more general nothing's-gotta-bring-me-down/pain-suppression/all-form mitigation of the Inner Beast motif that makes me think of PLD as the most physical of the tanks, and WAR as the middle of the road. I personally kind of like it that way; I just think PLDs should, holy/curative/light-magic user and all, be able to block some magic damage, reducing that gap. (That's just talking motif though; add Storm's Path vs. Rage of Halone and there's no contest, for better or worse.) Depending on how blocking is handled in regards to magic though, that would be much less the case, yeah.

(3) At any rate, you'd think it might make sense for a PLD to at least be able to block magic during Bulwark. But alas, no job traits. My favorite way to handle it is complex but, imo, realistic. Shields function against purely aetherial but projected (launched from caster to target) magic based on shield size (towers best), much like actually blocking a wave of fire against you; what's hidden won't be hit, so maximize that area. Just about anything should be able to block manifest magic (e.g. Stone). Nothing can block non-projected magic (anything that starts/appears directly in/on the target).

(4) Lately I've been looking at a lot of different ways to sort of get the same effectiveness out of Shield Oath without it being quite so basic, in combination with similar looks at Grit. Honestly, I really like the idea of stance-dancing, almost to the point where I feel like it wouldn't especially hurt if, in a fight with varying damage levels, a tank might stance-dance not just to get more dps out, but even to improve his overall defense.

[Outlandish ideas - just food for thought]

(This is kind of similar to when we thought DRK might be a life-tapping tank, spending life where healers would otherwise be overhealing in order to improve defense across times where healing needs would be uncomfortably intense / bolstering defense when it matters more so that healers can maintain DoTs, etc. Could be hell to heal, essentially, or an absolute breeze. In this case though it'd just be by generating, say, a parry- or parry-strength related resource or something similar but with less RNG-ness, while out of Grit, and then popping those into a sort of parry nuke when/by returning to Grit, almost like you were spending that mana not just on a stance, but on a variable shield of sorts.)

In PLD's case this stance-dancing bit came out as sort of an Oath resource, where Shield improved general damage mitigation, blocking, and could just outright make you a shield-based badass. (Think Shield Bash nukes.) The effects of either Oath would linger a bit after 'swapping', manually convertable through charging the spells themselves. While charging, Sword Oath channels a heavy on the target while building up attack speed and preparing bonus potency for your next oGCD. Overstacking the bonus potency unleashes it as a single strong cleave. Shield Oath channels a heavy on all nearby enemies while increasing block chance and reducing damage taken, drawing said enemies towards you at the end of the charge. Overstacking the bonus block chance automatically procs your block. Either charge can be rushed to reach the overstack bonus sooner by hitting the ability again while charging (spends extra mana, getting the short-term bonuses faster, but giving less of the long-term bonuses; these will instead generate / shift over time. Hitting any weaponskil would queue it for a typical 1-GCD or 2-GCD charge (max), hitting anything else twice ends the charge at that point and performs the attack, and moving of course ends the charge at that point). Charge speeds scale with (Skill) Speed, which should be a single stat with Spell Speed anyways...

(5) But... but, then we'd HAVE to make them all awesome!

Picking an idea I came up in another topic.
Officialy, PLD's design is to be the tanks that mitigates. It has an obvious issue here, since, everytank is sturdy enough to survive each encounter. And it's a good thing, since you don't want PLD to become mandatory. But, if PLD was able to solo tank anything,it wouldn't be mandatory, but just an option. You'd chose either one PLD or two of any tanks.

The tricky part here is that some fight are designed to prevent solo tanking, like A1 where the two bosses buff each other, or A3 with the resistance down. It's as old as Titan EX and T6, though.
But, what if PLD had an ability especially for those kind of situation ?

I present you : "Divine Calling"

Recast : GCD
Cost : Nearly half of MP pool.
Effect : Gain a Divine Stack

• Under Shield Oath, each Divine Stack reduces damage received by 10% and damage dealt by 10%. Also increase enmity gain.
• Under Sword Oath, each Divine Stack increases the potency of auto-attacks by 5

Duration (To be determined)
Using Divine Calling again will put another Divine stack for a lesser duration

The idea here is something akin to Blood of the Dragon of Enochian. By timing you skills properly, you'd gain a stacking defense buff to compensate for all the stacking damage buff on ennemies. But, since the duration is lowered more and more, you'd have no choice but to lose it at one point since it would take too much time to refill your MP.

This would give depth to PLD, a skill that varies depending on your stance. And a clear but not mandatory gap on damage reduction compared to other tanks.

You're either delusional or ignorant. If you could solo tank content, everyone would solo tank content. PLD would become the only tank. We've already seen this story and since FCoB, SE has specifically designed content to kill the trend.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

You're either delusional or ignorant. If you could solo tank content, everyone would solo tank content. PLD would become the only tank. We've already seen this story and since FCoB, SE has specifically designed content to kill the trend.

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No, it would not. Because surviving is cool, but you also need to kill things. And if PLD had even less DPS by stacking defense buffs, the additionnal DPS would only be here to compensate.
You could achieve the same DPS by having two tanks, two healers and 4 DPS than by having 1 PLD, 2 healers and 5 DPS. And if your tank dies, you have no backup tank to fill its spot, even temporarily.

But it's a funny reaction coming from you when you specifically said in another topic that PLD should be the only tank that could pass some mitigation checks...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

But it's a funny reaction coming from you when you specifically said in another topic that PLD should be the only tank that could pass some mitigation checks...

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Given that it's you, I'm not surprised that you failed to actually read anything I wrote. In the very next sentence I said that was terrible design and a garbage solution to the current tank imbalance. Funny indeed.

If you bring another DRG, NIN, MNK, etc. you don't gain just the added DPS. You gain their additional utility. You gain another trick attack, a traited mantra, dragon kick, another battle litany, another goad, etc. And, said party wide buffs would scale even higher because the buff is hitting an additional DPS and not a tank. You seem to think that a DRK / WAR is doing damage much more comparable to a DPS class than what is happening in reality. The only thing you lose is Path or Reprisal depending on which co-tank you are dropping.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

In the very next sentence I said that was terrible design and a garbage solution to the current tank imbalance.

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Which this is not. Allowing PLD to solo tank doesn't mean that it'd be the only solution or even the best.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

If you bring another DRG, NIN, MNK, etc. you don't gain just the added DPS. You gain their additional utility.

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It's still a matter of raidwide DPS, which is the decidibng factor of what solution is the best.
Yes, tanks do less damage than DPS, but it wouldn't be that difficult to adjust PLD so that 1-focused-on-mitigation-PLD+1DPS do the same average damage of any-tank-duo (that doesn't use a focused-on-mitigaiton-PLD).

Overall I would like4.0 to focus Paladin on improved QoL, being tanky, better utility/healing, and aggro generation, a little crowd control, but not so much on the DPS. I'd really like to see an end to this meta-game where every job is measured by it's DPS rather than a measure more appropriate to the role played.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

better utility/healing

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PLD could be "shadow" DPS if their utility allowed healers to spend more time doing damage, instead of the current situation of tank (and only tank) DPS needing to carry the last bit of the check. Divine Veil seems like it was aimed at this role, but it's such a long CD it doesn't really reduce healer load all that much.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Picking an idea I came up in another topic.
Officialy, PLD's design is to be the tanks that mitigates. It has an obvious issue here, since, every tank is sturdy enough to survive each encounter. And it's a good thing, since you don't want PLD to become mandatory. But, if PLD was able to solo tank anything,it wouldn't be mandatory, but just an option. You'd chose either one PLD or two of any tanks.

The tricky part here is that some fight are designed to prevent solo tanking, like A1 where the two bosses buff each other, or A3 with the resistance down. It's as old as Titan EX and T6, though.
But, what if PLD had an ability especially for those kind of situation ?

I present you : "Divine Calling"

Recast : GCD
Cost : Nearly half of MP pool.
Effect : Gain a Divine Stack

• Under Shield Oath, each Divine Stack reduces damage received by 10% and damage dealt by 10%. Also increase enmity gain.
• Under Sword Oath, each Divine Stack increases the potency of auto-attacks by 5

Duration (To be determined)
Using Divine Calling again will put another Divine stack for a lesser duration

The idea here is something akin to Blood of the Dragon of Enochian. By timing you skills properly, you'd gain a stacking defense buff to compensate for all the stacking damage buff on enemies. But, since the duration is lowered more and more, you'd have no choice but to lose it at one point since it would take too much time to refill your MP.

This would give depth to PLD, a skill that varies depending on your stance. And a clear but not mandatory gap on damage reduction compared to other tanks.

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PLD can't remain balanced while suddenly being guaranteed able to solo tank anything. That said, for two tanks, two healers and 4 DPS or 1 PLD, 2 healers, and 5 DPS to have equivalent raid dps, honestly, the PLD dps would have to be absolute shit, which means they'll never be taken for content that specifically (mechanically) require two tanks, or for anything that could already be solo-tanked. They'd essentially become an even gimper breed of tank.

That said, I doubt these stacks here would be able to give PLD nearly such a survivability buff, especially since unless the stacks are lasting a minute or more, you'd probably never be able to get past the second stack; it takes a bit over 50 seconds to regenerate half your mana, depending on the number of Riot Blade uses.

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Originally Posted by fm_fenrir

PLD could be "shadow" DPS if their utility allowed healers to spend more time doing damage, instead of the current situation of tank (and only tank) DPS needing to carry the last bit of the check. Divine Veil seems like it was aimed at this role, but it's such a long CD it doesn't really reduce healer load all that much.

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To be honest, the cooldown is less the issue so much as the defense. In most cases, the mass PLD-stoneskin of Divine Veil doesn't actually reduce healing needs at all, because the healers must still respond to incoming AoE damage in exactly the same way as they would. If at the bare minimum ilvl, where a Sacred Soil or Succor would otherwise be needed, it might save a life. Short of that, it simply isn't built a useful enough manner to save the healers any casts. It really is little more than a strong Succor shield on a 3-minute cooldown.

For comparison:
Divine Veil - Enwraps the party in a Divine Veil, sharing a shield equal to 10% of your maximum HP per party member affected across all party members. Damage taken that would reduce a party member's health below 1 is instead siphoned from the Divine Veil's shield. Lasts 12 seconds.

^ Granted, this would need a way to prevent it from being abused in saving the MT as the OT. Right now that could be a 14k ish 'no death' shield on the other tank. For instance:
Each instance by which Divine Veil saves an affected party member from death reduces the duration of Divine Veil on that member by a percentage of base duration twice proportionate to the damage compared to your maximum HP. (6k damage taken at 1 health, with a 18k PLD, reduces duration by 2/3s, or 8 seconds. 9k damage absorbed would kill the buff instantly after the absorption. Still good for a single-hit, at least.)
--OR--
Divine Veil cannot absorb direct-targeted damage. (Can't eat tank-busters, cleaves on the main target, or AAs.)

They could just make all of the tanks do the same average damage in both tank stance and out of tank stance.

Oh no all tanks are the same the horror.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Which this is not. Allowing PLD to solo tank doesn't mean that it'd be the only solution or even the best.

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As Shurrikhan details to some extent, your fix misses the main issue with PLD almost entirely.

The reason why WAR is good is pretty obvious. They're good. Period. It doesn't matter what situation you throw them into, they're equipped to deal with it. This applies to their class and essentially all their skills. They're all good skills in any situation. Outside of some QoL issues, they're flawless.

Why is DRK the other preferred tank atm? Because within the current content, they fit that same mold. They're good. Period. Because of the way fights are designed, DRK's strengths are very apparent and align in a synergistic way with the encounters. At the same time, those fights make much of PLD's kit much less effective.

PLD can still be a strong job. They're better than DRK in content where their strengths are utilized like Thordan EX. The entire problem with PLD is that they're forced into a niche due to how situational a lot of their skill-set is. Your suggestion does not fix that, it only makes it worse and is only going to restrict overall design space.

There are two solutions but one singular direction in addressing the issues PLD has. Design content to balance the three tanks or design all three tanks so that they're balanced regardless of content. The singular direction is that all three tanks need to be equally viable in all current content in any mixed pairing.

To prove a point, let's just be stupid for a second and give PLDs the same stack mechanic that WARs have. Bulwark now generates a stack. Tempered Will now generates a stack. Using Clemency now generates a stack. Cover now generates a stack. Hell, we're not even done with all the situational garbage PLD has but let's just stop there for now. Give PLDs weapon skills equivalent to Fell Cleave, Decimate, IB, Unchained, Steel Cyclone, etc. Instantly, Bulwark is now usable in any fight and in any situation. Tempered Will and Cover just went from relevant in 1 fight in all of Gordias to being an ability you use on CD just for the stack. Clemency is now no longer such an intolerable DPS loss because you get a stack. Now, you can throw PLD into A1S or any other fight that is predominantly magic damage and their skill-kit would still be usable and relevant. Now you can design any fight you want to and bring any tank you want to (though DRK would obviously need some love, too).

The idea is not to separate the tanks so that if you want to be the best tank player possible you need to level and gear all three. Or, if you want top progression, that you need to bring the class instead of the player. Pushing tank design into niches is a horrible, horrible idea that is both stupid and unhealthy for the game.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

(2) It's actually the blocking, as compared to the more general nothing's-gotta-bring-me-down/pain-suppression/all-form mitigation of the Inner Beast motif that makes me think of PLD as the most physical of the tanks, and WAR as the middle of the road. I personally kind of like it that way; I just think PLDs should, holy/curative/light-magic user and all, be able to block some magic damage, reducing that gap. (That's just talking motif though; add Storm's Path vs. Rage of Halone and there's no contest, for better or worse.) Depending on how blocking is handled in regards to magic though, that would be much less the case, yeah.

(3) At any rate, you'd think it might make sense for a PLD to at least be able to block magic during Bulwark. But alas, no job traits. My favorite way to handle it is complex but, imo, realistic. Shields function against purely aetherial but projected (launched from caster to target) magic based on shield size (towers best), much like actually blocking a wave of fire against you; what's hidden won't be hit, so maximize that area. Just about anything should be able to block manifest magic (e.g. Stone). Nothing can block non-projected magic (anything that starts/appears directly in/on the target).

(4) Lately I've been looking at a lot of different ways to sort of get the same effectiveness out of Shield Oath without it being quite so basic, in combination with similar looks at Grit. Honestly, I really like the idea of stance-dancing, almost to the point where I feel like it wouldn't especially hurt if, in a fight with varying damage levels, a tank might stance-dance not just to get more dps out, but even to improve his overall defense.

[Outlandish ideas - just food for thought]

(This is kind of similar to when we thought DRK might be a life-tapping tank, spending life where healers would otherwise be overhealing in order to improve defense across times where healing needs would be uncomfortably intense / bolstering defense when it matters more so that healers can maintain DoTs, etc. Could be hell to heal, essentially, or an absolute breeze. In this case though it'd just be by generating, say, a parry- or parry-strength related resource or something similar but with less RNG-ness, while out of Grit, and then popping those into a sort of parry nuke when/by returning to Grit, almost like you were spending that mana not just on a stance, but on a variable shield of sorts.)

In PLD's case this stance-dancing bit came out as sort of an Oath resource, where Shield improved general damage mitigation, blocking, and could just outright make you a shield-based badass. (Think Shield Bash nukes.) The effects of either Oath would linger a bit after 'swapping', manually convertable through charging the spells themselves. While charging, Sword Oath channels a heavy on the target while building up attack speed and preparing bonus potency for your next oGCD. Overstacking the bonus potency unleashes it as a single strong cleave. Shield Oath channels a heavy on all nearby enemies while increasing block chance and reducing damage taken, drawing said enemies towards you at the end of the charge. Overstacking the bonus block chance automatically procs your block. Either charge can be rushed to reach the overstack bonus sooner by hitting the ability again while charging (spends extra mana, getting the short-term bonuses faster, but giving less of the long-term bonuses; these will instead generate / shift over time. Hitting any weaponskil would queue it for a typical 1-GCD or 2-GCD charge (max), hitting anything else twice ends the charge at that point and performs the attack, and moving of course ends the charge at that point). Charge speeds scale with (Skill) Speed, which should be a single stat with Spell Speed anyways...

(5) But... but, then we'd HAVE to make them all awesome!

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Sorry for the late reply, been a little busy but I definitely wanted to keep the conversation going.

(2) I'm not quite sure PLD is the most physical of tanks. I feel like WAR and PLD were designed to be similar because back when they came out, they were the only tanks.

I'm just saying the PLD fantasy would be better for magical mitigation due to the whole holy warrior motif and that WAR would be best for physical mitigation due to the whole tough guy theme. All this is my opinion though, and I can definitely see various arguments for their niches due to their fantasy.

(3) IMO for simplicities sake (remember I'm the guy who said not to overcomplicate the class) I would just categorize it into 2 catergories. Projected magic and non-projected magic. Blockable magics would include things like Stone, Fire, and Blizzard, and non-projected magic would be unblockable magics like Aero, Paralysis, and Banish.

(4) Stance dancing would be nice and its also why I included in my little wish list that the Oaths don't break you combos so it would be easier to shift. You can even argue that they be off the GCD.

Kay, heres a more updated list of my Wish list after discussing with ya and hopefully to elicit some more responses on it. Underlined are changes. Again I reiterate that none of this will ever happen and I realize that lol

More AoEs!!

Savage Blade should hit 2 additional targets for 50 potency. Main target potency reduced by 25 and RoH and RA increased by 25 to compensate. IMO all cleave looking animations should cleave. Still standing by my preference to not encourage combo breaking, don't want to have a stronger Savage Blade then a 3rd ability. RA combo will generate a bit less emnity, but both combos will do more AoE damage.

Circle of Scorn CD reduced to 15 sec. Lets you refresh DOT and press something more frequently. An increase in single target damage to be sure, but PLD can use single target DPS increase.

Maybe Flash doing minor damage? (would rather have the above 2 options so you don't spam 1 ability for aoe and run out of MP for next pull) Also breaks CCs, didn't like this change anyways

More Emphasis on Shields Blocking

Magic Attacks being blockable (only targeted obvious projected blockable ones like Fire and Blizzard, not non-projected magics like Banish, Paralysis or AoE magics from bosses) Still want this, PLD to be middle of the road tank is my dream lol

Bulwark reduced to 90 sec cd, Rampart increased to 120 sec to compensate and reduce Bulwark's block from 60% to 40%

Shield Slam purging enemy debuffs like Haste. Prob overpowered in PVP and not really that neccesary.

Shield Oath increases Block chance by 20% instead of just flatly reducing damage taken. With magic blocking, (and correct tuning, maybe 20% isn't the right number, this changes nothing except make the class more focused on blocking.

Cover effect extended to magic (since we would be able to block them)

More/Better Options on Cross Class Skills

Raise being cast in combat

Esuna being cross skilled (would be nice)

Don't mind losing Stoneskin, stone doesn't really fit the fantasy of PLD anyways. Stone element doesn't fit, the absorb fits but would rather have Esuna

Fracture being longer, maybe it still won't be used, but at least make it a viable option Fracture should be better and viable, doesn't matter how.

Can you imagine having to choose between Protect, Raise, Esuna, Cure, Foresight, Bloodbath, Fracture, and Mercy Stroke with these changes? What would you choose?

TP Management

Shield Swipe or Riot Blade(in addition to MP) regenerating some TP (20 TP?) Weaponskills regenerating TP doesn't make sense, but I think something should be done

Other Stuff

Tempered Will having a Surecast effect

Sword Oath and Shield Oath not breaking combos

Shield Oath not having such a penalty on DPS (15 or 10%) Want to increase MT dps, not OT

Rage of Halone reducing int and dex in addition to str by 10% ALL damage dealt by 10%. This would reinforce PLD being middle of the road and it wouldn't be OP

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Pushing tank design into niches is a horrible, horrible idea that is both stupid and unhealthy for the game.

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I don't think so.
Let's suppose DRK favors magic damage (100%) and is okay for physical (80%), WAR favors physical damage (100%) and is okay for magical (80%), and PLD treats all damage equally, (90%). All classes have their own seperate utility toolkits too. So bring 2 of the same tanks is always a disadvantage.

Now suppose you introduce a 70% magical and 30% physical fight.

If you truly want to min max performance, DRK/PLD is the way to go. 190% combined towards magic, 170% combined for physical.

However, if you decide to bring, DRK/WAR, you are just sacrificing 10% magical dmg mitigation for a 10% physical. The net difference would be very negligible and you don't lose much. 180% towards magic, 180% towards physical.

Third option would be PLD/WAR, this is the least viable comp for this fight. The fight is still doable, but you lose a combined total of 20% magical damage but you gain 20% physical damage. The difference is more noticeable, but the fight is still doable because the differences are so slight. 170% for magic, 190% for physical. Sure this is the least viable option, but you aren't forced to bring a DRK to clear the fight.

All in all, the difference between all 3 tank compositions have their differences, but they are so slight and negligible that in the end it really doesn't matter which tanks you bring. They just all have different niches that make them all unique. Feel free to number crunch the differences between the 3 comps in this hypothetical scenario to prove me wrong. I didn't do the math myself tbh, but eyeballing the numbers makes me feel like the differences are small.

On a fight where its 50/50 magic/phyiscal, it doesn't matter which tanks you bring.

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

They could just make all of the tanks do the same average damage in both tank stance and out of tank stance.

Oh no all tanks are the same the horror.

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I agree with you, if there are niches, it should be focused on utility and dmg mitigation and not dps.

I just want them to take some risks when designing paladin abilities in the expansion. Stop catering to the "lol I like a job I don't have to think about at all because then I can survey the battle ;)" crowd - they won't be inconvenienced by more complex mechanics because they aren't tackling any content that requires any level of job mastery anyway. For that matter, something for dark knight to make it more than just "level 50 paladin with more off GCDs" would be nice. The whole MP aspect of the job doesn't even really set it apart imo. Also niche tanks are retarded and risk ending up useless a lot of the time so they shouldn't push that stuff.

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Originally Posted by Link594

snip.

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You're vastly underestimating how much better DRK is against magic, how much better PLD is against physical -- especially when sheltron is at its best, and how much WAR excels at either.

In a fight like Thordan EX, DRK is complete garbage and PLD takes a huge dump on them with WAR taking a smaller dump on both.

But then you have fights like A1S and A4S where PLD is just total trash compared to DRK and WAR.

You talk about small margins but people care about those margins. Just look at PLD. They can clear all of Savage. But, the margins you speak of meant they cleared it 4+ weeks after the DRK / WAR groups. I can count the number of high-level PLDs left on my server on one hand.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

PLD can't remain balanced while suddenly being guaranteed able to solo tank anything.

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It depends on what you think is "balance"'. For me, balancing jobs means that no option is absolutely better than other.
If you can clear instances as fast with the two setups, then neither is absolutely better.
Yes, the PLD DPS will be even less, but it's still not an issue since its the raid DPS that matters.

The trick, however, is that you chose to trade DPS for defense. Meaning that if the content is absolutely impossible to solo tank, or already solo tankable, you just won't cast Divine Calling too much and thus, keep your usual DPS.
For mechanics like Turn1 or A1 where solo tanking "only" means granting a periodic damage buff to the boss, then you'll stack the defense buff to compensate.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That said, I doubt these stacks here would be able to give PLD nearly such a survivability buff, especially since unless the stacks are lasting a minute or more, you'd probably never be able to get past the second stack; it takes a bit over 50 seconds to regenerate half your mana, depending on the number of Riot Blade uses.

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The duration/MP cost were thrown there to give an idea, but can be adjusted. If Divine Calling only costs 1/3rd of your MP, it means you can easily reach 3 stacks and then, you'd struggle to go higher.
I'll try to do a simulation with real numbers, later.

The real problem here is really that tanks are all already sturdy enough that if you want one of them to focus on that, it really need to be miles above the other. And "insane" defense is far less an issue that "insane" damage, since everything eventually enrage. It's the same with Hallowed Ground : "Yeah I survived this brutal AoE that killed everybody else...now what ?"

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Pushing tank design into niches is a horrible, horrible idea that is both stupid and unhealthy for the game.

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I don't see how "increasing mitigation" is a niche. It's supposed to be the official trade off between WAR and PLD, and frankly, if that was really true, it would be fine. PLD's increased mitigation would allow healers to deal more damage that they can do with a WAR MT. Problem is, when considering eHP, WAR is, in fact, the highest, so healers already do whatever damage they can. So, to make PLD matters, you have to go one step beyond.

And finally, PLD's problem is only relevant in high-tier raid. Raids where you carefully chose your setup, and where you'll decide if you want to go with a single PLD or with two tanks. For everything less difficult, PLD is as viable as WAR and DRK.

The reason why niches are bad was already exemplified in A1S-A4S and is a basic idea within class design in any multi-class game. PLD's first A4S was 4+ weeks after the first DRK / WAR groups. Why? Because PLD was niche in that it was the only low DPS, low magic-mitigation tank. Because we had niche tanks, they reacted differently to the same content and PLDs lost out.

Nobody thinks it was a good idea to have one tank incapable of doing content without 4 more weeks of gearing. The mass exodus from PLD is proof of this.

So, why are we discussing the idea of going "one step beyond" in relation to PLD's supposed defensive niche? So that PLD can clear content 4 weeks ahead of WAR and DRK while they wait for gear to push them over a specific eHP threshold? One step beyond is giving PLD a meaningful advantage in eHP -- an equivalent advantage to the higher DPS of WAR and DRK. We've seen what that means already.

It was bad design when it was DPS. It's still bad design when it applies to mitigation.

They admitted to their mistakes in tuning. Why are we suggesting they should repeat those mistakes in another way?

All tanks need to be able to survive content. The moment a tank is incapable of surviving content, they are no longer a tank. They are nothing. So, you set the baseline at the lowest survivability tank. But, by doing so, you are just falling back into the current meta where anything over that baseline is sacrificed for more DPS.

And, if all you cared about was casual content, then none of this discussion needs to happen. They could make PLD even worse and they'd still clear the next Alex normal just fine.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Because PLD was niche in that it was the only low DPS, low magic-mitigation tank.

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Again, the problem with PLD is not that it has personal low DPS. It's that it offers nothing relevant to the raid to compensate for that.

Looking only at personal DPS is like saying BRD is a bad job because its numbers are lower than other DPS.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

But, by doing so, you are just falling back into the current meta where anything over that baseline is sacrificed for more DPS.

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Unless they design content where killing the ennemy is not the goal, everything above the minimum will always be sacrificed for more DPS. Solo tank or solo heal strats alredy existed for First Coil, as well as STR speced tanks, especially for that. With this idea, you sacrifice a second tank to gain a fifth DPS.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

And, if all you cared about was casual content, then none of this discussion needs to happen.

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What really set high-tier content from other content is not the difficulty, it's the choice. In Duty Finder, you'll end up with random jobs and random players, so, you don't have to design several strats to clear it. In Savage or early Extreme Primals, you can chose your setup and it will change how you manage the fight. You can specifically try a solo tank Ravana (Or even a solo tank Bismarck, with this kind of stacking defensive buff), so it could be interesting to design jobs around these different strats.

And if different strats result in approximately the same clear time, there's no balance issue.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

You're vastly underestimating how much better DRK is against magic, how much better PLD is against physical -- especially when sheltron is at its best, and how much WAR excels at either.

In a fight like Thordan EX, DRK is complete garbage and PLD takes a huge dump on them with WAR taking a smaller dump on both.

But then you have fights like A1S and A4S where PLD is just total trash compared to DRK and WAR.

You talk about small margins but people care about those margins. Just look at PLD. They can clear all of Savage. But, the margins you speak of meant they cleared it 4+ weeks after the DRK / WAR groups. I can count the number of high-level PLDs left on my server on one hand.

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The example I used was hypothetical. The numbers I used were clearly made up, and it was used to explain that niches in small margins are not harmful to the game. Just look at racial bonuses as another example.

It is not fair to call a difference that results in a large margin a niche. At this point, its not a niche anymore, but a specializiation. Specialized tanks means that one tank can be useless in content, niched tanks means that all tanks are useful, but certain ones will perform a task that is unique to its job.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

The reason why niches are bad was already exemplified in A1S-A4S and is a basic idea within class design in any multi-class game. PLD's first A4S was 4+ weeks after the first DRK / WAR groups. Why? Because PLD was niche in that it was the only low DPS, low magic-mitigation tank. Because we had niche tanks, they reacted differently to the same content and PLDs lost out.

Nobody thinks it was a good idea to have one tank incapable of doing content without 4 more weeks of gearing. The mass exodus from PLD is proof of this.

So, why are we discussing the idea of going "one step beyond" in relation to PLD's supposed defensive niche? So that PLD can clear content 4 weeks ahead of WAR and DRK while they wait for gear to push them over a specific eHP threshold? One step beyond is giving PLD a meaningful advantage in eHP -- an equivalent advantage to the higher DPS of WAR and DRK. We've seen what that means already.

It was bad design when it was DPS. It's still bad design when it applies to mitigation.

They admitted to their mistakes in tuning. Why are we suggesting they should repeat those mistakes in another way?

All tanks need to be able to survive content. The moment a tank is incapable of surviving content, they are no longer a tank. They are nothing. So, you set the baseline at the lowest survivability tank. But, by doing so, you are just falling back into the current meta where anything over that baseline is sacrificed for more DPS.

And, if all you cared about was casual content, then none of this discussion needs to happen. They could make PLD even worse and they'd still clear the next Alex normal just fine.

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Having bad DPS isn't a niche, thats just bad tuning when it comes to DPS. Bard's niche isn't that it has lower DPS then other DPS classes, but that it brings some unique support that other classes don't bring. The DPS loss is there to balance the class in respect to other classes.

No one is asking for overpowered specialized tanks, that would obviously break the game. Racial bonuses do not break the game. When niches happen that do not overwhelmingly effect the meta such like the example I used, then the effect the niche has, (making the job unique), is healthy for the game.

Again I reiterate the point that niches should be marginally small, and not the extremely large ones you mentioned that make tanks useless in a fight. Classes clearing content 4 weeks later then others isn't because its a problem with niches, but a problem with tuning. The point in niches isn't to reinforce the idea that you need specialized tanks, but to make the jobs unique so they aren't homogenized and boring.

Again, having high or low DPS doesn't count as a niche, but having the highest fire type damage could be considered a niche. If a boss was weak to fire damage, would you bother changing your raid composition to bring fire? Not unless the difference was so large that the content is unclearable without it. (This is not what I'm arguing for.)

I'd love to see some kind of trait that would reset the cool down on Circle of Scorn. Perhaps give Royal Authority a chance to do so? I hate to rely on RNG for such things, but I can't think of another good place to put it.

Additionally, something that would allow Shield Swipe to be brought to bear while OTing would be nice.

How about this, give Royal Authority two additional effects:

Sword Oath (Combo Bonus): Royal Authority has a chance to proc Shield Swipe.
Shield Oath (Combo Bonus): Royal Authority has a chance to reset the cooldown on Circle of Spite.

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Originally Posted by Link594

No one is asking for overpowered specialized tanks, that would obviously break the game.

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Just for my personal knowledge, how do you define an "overpowered tank", and why/how it could break the game ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Just for my personal knowledge, how do you define an "overpowered tank", and why/how it could break the game ?

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I dunno about overpowered, but I know all about unbalanced. That's why it tickles me when people describe WAR as the "most well-balanced tank/job".

Balance implies just that, BALANCE. You balance weaknesses with strengths, strengths with weaknesses, not strengths with more strengths. Every other job plays this way. You have specific pros and cons wherein the cons are covered by other members of a team. We understood this when we were 9 years old playing pokemon, but throw an unbalanced job in the hands of full-grown (apparently) adults and we forget what the word means. This is how you break the game.

That's why SE made a mistake when they gave one job strengths and weaknesses and then gave the strengths to cover those weaknesses to the same job. If you made every job in the game like that, then you could 8-man anything with any one job and none of the others.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

I dunno about overpowered, but I know all about unbalanced.

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From my point of view, people tend to use the world "unbalanced" very easily. As soon as something is strong, you can be sure that "unbalanced" is not far away.
That's why I always ask one question each time a suggestion is made : Would it make you chose that job over its contenders most of the time ?

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

If you made every job in the game like that, then you could 8-man anything with any one job and none of the others.

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Like an 8-WAR Ravana EX fight ? :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

From my point of view, people tend to use the world "unbalanced" very easily. As soon as something is strong, you can be sure that "unbalanced" is not far away.
That's why I always ask one question each time a suggestion is made : Would it make you chose that job over its contenders most of the time ?

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Everything about WAR makes you choose it over its contenders most of the time. It has no definable weaknesses to put in the "weakness" scale. That's unbalanced. Tell me how it isn't?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Like an 8-WAR Ravana EX fight ? :p

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Uhh, that was my point. That's not a symptom of balance when a job can 8-man a fight. We should all be able to 8-man content on any job, right? All healers, all DPS, all tanks? Perhaps an 8-DRG level-synced Titan EX? That's not unbalanced right? That job is just really strong! And like, awesome! And stuff.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Everything about WAR makes you choose it over its contenders most of the time. It has no definable weaknesses to put in the "weakness" scale. That's unbalanced. Tell me how it isn't?

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No no, WAR is obviously imbalanced.

The question is interesting every time we give suggestion about how to improve other jobs.
For example : If PLD could battle raise, would you chose it over WAR ? ;)
Or, on this topic, if PLD could solo tank at the expense of most of its DPS, would you chose it over WAR ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Or, on this topic, if PLD could solo tank at the expense of most of its DPS, would you chose it over WAR ?

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This was actually sort of true during shiva ex days.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

could solo tank at the expense of most of its DPS

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All 3 tanks can already do this. This isn't an area of discrepancy.