Why is "It's something to do" apparently a valid defense?

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Originally Posted by Conando

Not quite sure myself. After all, there's plenty of other things people can do that are more entertaining (other games for one), so the argument against this grind is pretty solid.

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Not only is it grindy it is the same grind all over and more recycled content. I remember when people said FFXI was grindy.. This game blows it away for grindyness if that is a word... FFXIV suffers from nothing but recycled content over and over. Honestly I am to the point where I would rather have less content but good new and different content. I thought Heavensward would add something new and it really didn't other than flying, it was really a map pack with a little story, story was good though just too short for a expansion.

I thought this weapon would bring something new and it is not. I see huge potential in FFXIV but It seems like SE doesn't and I am afraid it will not come now. They seem more focused and what they can do to make more money like spending more time on the cash shop than on good content. The cash shop was supposed to help bring in money for new content, what happened with that? I am loosing faith.

Again I would rather have less content and have good/different content than SE just throwing some cycled content out the door. This game has so much potential someone needs to grab it by the horns and run with it.

So if they would have created 10 new trials that are just as difficult as A4S that would need to be done for the relic, would you all be happy? I can just assume the boards would be this is too hard, need to nerf, etc, etc. People keep complaining that all the new stuff is re-hashed content. Of course it is, it is developed off the of the core came. You tell me one game that has come out with an expansion that was so totally different then the core came. WOD for WoW was basically just like the core game, although it had garrisons and you all know how that worked out. But the rest of the expansion was just the same as all others. New zones, raids and that was about it. It just seems like people want a brand new game every expansion.

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Originally Posted by Sardonia

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Come on there is no new content for end game and there has not since hitting 50.. Actually there has been a lot of content and this game does not suffer from lack of content it suffers from lack of new/different content. Even every dungeon is the same cookie cutter dungeon with 3 bosses and trash in between. same ole fates and I could go on and on.

The whole expansion was nothing but a giant map pack which add flying and some story line. The Story line was great but short.

There should have been some new type of combat.

I will use FFXI as a example since I played it and allot of others did. Pretty much every expansion you paid for added something new to the game like Campaign, dynamis, besieged etc. This is the kind of content this game needs, not more cookie cutter dungeons, not more fates, or new tomes or more same ole leves or more land. It needs something completely different to do.. Not more dodging either.

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Originally Posted by Nashred

I will use FFXI as a example since I played it and allot of others did. Pretty much every expansion you paid for added something new to the game like Campaign, dynamis, besieged etc.

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Right, but, apart from Dynamis, those content had absolutely no useful reward for endgame.
Exactly like Fronlines, Gold Saucer, Lords Of Vermilion, Triple Triad.

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Originally Posted by Hellboy-sa

i rather do the relic than stand outside fc house looking at walls details

at least a goal to do til 3.2 out

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The sad thing is, besides this grind feast, thats all ppl do lately due the failpatchs

I wish the 3.0 relic had more variety, for example, included Crystal Tower and/or Coil. That would've been more fun. SE is making too many activities that are only extrinsically rewarding (i.e. you get a piece of gear/minion/mount/title for doing them) and not enough intrinsically rewarding activities (i.e. activities that are fun in and of themselves). This is at the core of the relic discussion now and the discussions about the state of the game as a whole.

I plan on doing the relic quest, I really don't think it will be that bad. I'm going to do it as Dark Knight so I can pick up my War Panther mount on the way (and probably get enough Alexander tokens to gear every job...) but I'm not going to defend the quest as the height of creativity either. And at some point, SE is going to have to step up its game because it is novelty that drives player interest, not boring repetition.

As for this game not having enough to do, it's a matter of perspective. There's:

- level all jobs
- gear all jobs
- earn lots of gil
- earn achievements
- pvp
- choco racing/breeding
- collect all minions/mounts

And so on. However, naturally the less players like to do each of these things, the less worthwhile FFXIV is to subscribe to. If you only enjoy raiding, for example, you are unlikely to be impressed with most content. Likewise, if you don't raid, then raid updates won't keep you interested. FFXIV holds the best appeal for the players who actually like doing all the things. Now, that being said, when all the things involve repetitive grinds, then player choice is restricted to "Shall I grind or shall I grind?" And that leads to players getting burned out and bored.

In my opinion, Dungeons and Frontline are the most intrinsically rewarding activities in the game. I STILL enjoy running Sastasha, a dungeon I've run hundreds of times, more than half the grindy stuff added to this game. The grinds are expected and they're perfectly fine, sometimes even an enjoyable part of the experience when you're in the mood for something mindless. But as a company you can balance grindy activities against non-grindy ones and you can make grinds more interesting. For example, with the 3.0 relic, running each dungeon 10 times would be more enjoyable than running Alexander 800 times. Giving players a reason to re-visit Crystal Tower or Coil would be a good idea too, especially to help out players who still need some of that content.

In short, as much as you may want to defend SE's decisions because you like or want to like this game, they've taken every great idea and messed it up somehow. FFXIV is still a good game but there are many flaws and most should have been apparent before they even went into testing.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Right, but, apart from Dynamis, those content had absolutely no useful reward for endgame.
Exactly like Fronlines, Gold Saucer, Lords Of Vermilion, Triple Triad...

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But they were fun to do and that was only a short list. I just want something different..
I will say gold saucer was one thing that was added to the game that is different though...

I also do not mind grind and as long as it is different and not the same thing every time..

Look at the events in FFXIV same thing every-time: run few fates and deliver some stuff..
Look at the events in FFXI even though they were the same year after year they were different from each other like the egg hunt and they were fun..

I do not mind challenge and I do not mind something easy once in a while and I do not mind grind.. i also realise this is not FFXI and I do not want it to be, I left that game. I am pretty flexible and I still enjoy the game but everyday it is harder and harder to get on and it is starting to feel like work. I have a lot of time in FFXIV but if I dont get something new I will have to go somewhere else to get something new.

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Originally Posted by Nashred

But they were fun to do and that was only a short list. I just want something different..
I will say gold saucer was one thing that was added to the game that is different though...

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They also came with later expansions.
In fact, even Dynamis wasn't implemented until the end of Zilart.
HW offers Diadem, which is exactly a "modern MMO" Dynamis, in its 1st major patch, and Lors Of Verminion.

And before CoP, you had basically no dungeons and no raids.

Fun is completely subjective.

Does give you something to do and you can play much of the different content released so far.

I don't like Alexander Savage, I guess people need to stop doing it altogether, why do they insist on defending something so stupid. Your gear is going to be irrelevant when 3.2 lands anyways, so why bother?


I enjoy a grind. #RagnarokOnline4ever

Edit: Before some raider gets their panties all knotted up, no I'm not being serious about stopping raids, cuz guess what? "It's something to do" =D

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

They also came with later expansions.
In fact, even Dynamis wasn't implemented until the end of Zilart.
HW offers Diadem, which is exactly a "modern MMO" Dynamis, in its 1st major patch, and Lors Of Verminion.

And before CoP, you had basically no dungeons and no raids.

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I am sorry but this is not a new game anymore and FFXI was a new MMORPG for SE this is not. Nothing different is even announced for the future yet.
Like I said I see the potential this game has. They can do allot with just housing but they do not even fix the housing shortage yet and how long has this been going on?. It is like SE does not believe this game is successful and do not want to throw any resources at it.. I can sit their watching bots for month and SE does nothing about them. It seems they spend more time on the cash shop and that was supposed to free up money to make more content?

The turn over in this game is starting to get insane.. My friends list was huge and now about 5 people log on weekly. It seems to do well with new players though but since Heavensward the population does seem to be dropping.

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Originally Posted by Shiki_Lockhart

Man, really you guys play RPGs and MMO\\'s and you expect to them not have grinds? LOLOLOL

All RPGs even offline have grinds for best weapons or gears in the game but once you complete the game and endgame unlock for you get them do you go and get them?

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Uh no, they don't have to "quit" and move on and never get the items while you spam content that your muscle memory can handle by itself so its literally watching the same animations happening over and over because the mechanics don't change to make you pay attention.

They can take a break come back a year later and In less than 1/4th the time catch up to your "progress".

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Originally Posted by Ilitsa

I don't like Alexander Savage, I guess people need to stop doing it altogether, why do they insist on defending something so stupid. Your gear is going to be irrelevant when 3.2 lands anyways, so why bother?

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Ironically enough people have stopped bothering with Savage and this one of the reasons.

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Originally Posted by Nashred

I am sorry but this is not a new game anymore and FFXI was a new MMORPG for SE this is not.

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Creating content takes time, and this game has far more content than FFXI in the same span of years. Dynamis was created in 2005, three years after initial launch. ARR was launched...3 years ago, we have Diadem.
And you can't count 1.0 since ARR was created back from scratch.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

If people are bored/upset, unsubstantiated and go do something else. I've taken probably 9-11 months off of the game during my entire time of playing XIV, don't see why others can't do the same.

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Because the fact that there are still people who are having fun makes those people's angry forum tirades look meaningless, so they have to come into threads like these and try to convince people they aren't really having fun in the hopes they can drive people away from the game in order to justify their own opinions as "facts."

That's why they can't simply take a break without putting people down on the forums first.

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Originally Posted by ohmRICE

Ironically enough people have stopped bothering with Savage and this one of the reasons.

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But this has been happening since the game started, This shouldn't be new to anyone who has actually been playing this long.

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Originally Posted by ohmRICE

Ironically enough people have stopped bothering with Savage and this one of the reasons.

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maybe so, but one of the most popular counter-arguments to the relic is "You can just get a Thordan weapon" which is equally as pointless, my point was, no matter what we do to enjoy ourselves, our "rewards" that we get right now will be worthless in the next patch cycle, people need to just stop being so critical of eachother and realize that their fun isn't hurt by someone else enjoying doing something they don't like. The fact that all of these arguments are going on between people just NEEDS TO STOP. I suppose my tongue in cheek point that you bolded may have been a bit careless of me, can't read intent in text, and all, so I apologize on that front

A little question : If the reward is not better, why would you spent time to get it ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

A little question : If the reward is not better, why would you spent time to get it ?

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Because, personally, I grew up on Ragnarok Online, hands down one of the MOST grindy MMOs ever, and I love it. I enjoy killing monsters for that .1% drop, I enjoy having to kill thousands of something to get my item, my counter question is, why does someone enjoying it bother you enough to feel the need to question it?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Creating content takes time, and this game has far more content than FFXI in the same span of years. Dynamis was created in 2005, three years after initial launch. ARR was launched...3 years ago, we have Diadem.
And you can't count 1.0 since ARR was created back from scratch.

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Daidem is something new? Really it is nothing new, it is hunts you take a airship too. I think it was a neat idea that showed even more flaws but I do not want to get into that.

I am going to end it here because we are going in circles and you are entitled to your opinion, Actually when I first quoted you I thought we were agreeing... I would rather have less content and have better content that is new and not recycled content.

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Originally Posted by Ilitsa

(sorry character limit)

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This is where we arrive at the root of the problem: content is just invalidated too quickly for anything to really have any worth. Especially in Heavensward it feels like they turned up the dial to 11 in terms of how fast we toss old equipment (we went from law -> proto gordian -> eso in like a month!). Eventually people are gonna get tired of jumping from one treadmill to another without having a nice cold refreshing glass of water.
I came here from grindfest Korean MMOs as well, but at least there my months of suffering trying to get spellbook pages to drop gave me a substantial reward that was useful years down the road.

But yes, I do agree we players should stop going after each other for differing opinions because it solves nothing if it turns into name calling and not actual conversation and debate.

It's possibly because there are a couple broad groups that tend to play MMOs. There are those that will unsubscribe or play other games if they get bored for whatever reason, and then there are those that don't. I'm more in the latter category than the former. I like this game: I like the story, the aesthetics, the environments, my character, and the friends I've made on here. So, given a choice, I prefer to play FFXIV than to play other games, and I will often log in just to idle and chat even if there's not much I particularly want to do at that time. The relic questlines are, as a result, my absolute favorite thing in FFXIV. I love long term goals and something that gives me motivation to "do stuff" in the game as it gives me more reason to be *on* the game because of all the things I like about it.

I'd be willing to guess that a lot of folks who see the relic as "something to do" probably fall more into that category than not.

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Originally Posted by Nashred

Daidem is something new? Really it is nothing new, it is hunts you take a airship too. I think it was a neat idea that showed even more flaws but I do not want to get into that.

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Dynamis was something new ?
Reused city zones full of beastmen...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Dynamis was something new ?
Reused city zones full of beastmen...

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It was a new type of combat with alliances fighting together. It had great rewards.
And yea it was something new at the time.. City full of beast-man.
Also it does not matter, I am playing FFXIV and not that game so we go round and round.. Actually I just reactivated my FFXI account just to finish the final quest.

You are happy with the content for the relic and that is fine, You feel the new relic quest is something new and exciting and that is fine.

I am not and that is why I play less and less and have harder time getting on the game now and no matter what you say it wont make me want to play more. This new relic feels exactly like something I did before. I do not mind grind ( I played FFXI for around 7 years) just let the grind be different.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Dynamis was something new ?
Reused city zones full of beastmen...

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...that had job 2hrs for each mob.
...that took dinero and teamwork to get in and do.
...that was the only place for AF2, which helped with other endgame activities for more than a few months.

It's a valid defense because you people whine moan and complain there is nothing to do and then are given something that you can't blow through in 2 days and then you whine moan and complain about it being too long. You people can't be happy. The only thing you are ever happy about is when you whine moan and complain. You live for that, that's all I see you people ever do. You want content that you can blow through in a day and then have new content released every other day and even if you got that I bet you would all STILL complain about it. So just don't do it if it bugs you that much.

You know SE, can we make the relic quest more of a grind? It's legit not grindy enough for me yet. Needs to be just a little more time consuming! Please SE.

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Originally Posted by Blood-Aki

But this has been happening since the game started, This shouldn't be new to anyone who has actually been playing this long.

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People usually expect things to change after a while to keep the game interesting instead of feeling "been there, done that" at the release of a new expansion.

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Originally Posted by Lyshell

It's a valid defense because you people whine moan and complain there is nothing to do and then are given something that you can't blow through in 2 days and then you whine moan and complain about it being too long. You people can't be happy. The only thing you are ever happy about is when you whine moan and complain. You live for that, that's all I see you people ever do. You want content that you can blow through in a day and then have new content released every other day and even if you got that I bet you would all STILL complain about it. So just don't do it if it bugs you that much.

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No, you are completely missing the point. People complained because there was nothing FUN to do. This new relic quest is both extremely time consuming, unfun, and the reward is NOT worth the time commitment AT ALL. We don't "live to complain". We want to love this game, we want it to be a good game, and the quality of content that is being produced just does not match that at all. It's not a question of QUANTITY of content - I don't think anyone here can realistaclly say FFXIV lacks AMOUNT of content. It's an issue with QUALITY, and unfortunately, we just do not see the quality in what has been added since 3.0.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

People usually expect things to change after a while to keep the game interesting instead of feeling "been there, done that" at the release of a new expansion.

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You tell me what else has changed in other games? Expansions usually increase with new zones, etc. Expansions are typically built on the core of the existing game. Again it just seems people want a new game every expansion/patch.

The Sims Expansions are pretty great on building upon existing mechanics. Roller Coaster Tycoon did expansions right too.

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Originally Posted by Sardonia

You tell me what else has changed in other games? Expansions usually increase with new zones, etc. Expansions are typically built on the core of the existing game. Again it just seems people want a new game every expansion/patch.

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I think you exaggerating.. I do not think anyone wants something every patch but yes with a expansion you expect something new. You are right most expansion draws off the core game but that does not mean you should not get something new either... The question to those who defend this, when should we be upset when we still have not got something new in the way of combat? when 3.0 comes out? when we have 100 cookie cutter dungeons and fates. There already so many SE is already talking about shutting some down.

I have allot of time in this game and do not want to feel like this right now. I have a hard time getting on anymore. I work hard at work and I need a escape but when a game becomes no fun? I want the game to improve so I want to continue to play. It is like some here are ok if the the game never gets any better. no imagination.

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Originally Posted by Lyshell

It's a valid defense because you people whine moan and complain there is nothing to do and then are given something that you can't blow through in 2 days and then you whine moan and complain about it being too long. You people can't be happy.

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I don't think you honestly believe what you just wrote, because you'd have to be blind not to see the obvious complaints are quite justified.

The reason there's discontent is because everything is the same. I log in, I do my dailies, I log out. That's about as much fun as I get and that's only because I foolishly paid up my subscription for months in advance. I'm getting tomes for new gear. This gear is not special and is basically a glamor with a few extra HP attached. This endless treadmill of grinding for the sake of grinding, just so we can do more grinding is a horrible way to press forward.

Only an idiot would allow this trend to continue without saying something. If you don't make your voice heard, it's as good as affirming their decisions. It's basically saying they're doing a grand job, and you're happy to get the same bland content patch after patch. Well, here's my take. I need to see some real changes soon. This game is getting old fast, and it's going to start driving players away. When that happens, content will worsen due a lack of revenue and become even more stale, and eventually it will lead to the games downfall.

I've seen what happens when MMO's grow stale, and it's not fun. It's high time Yoshi started growing our characters outwards rather than purely upwards.

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Originally Posted by Sardonia

You tell me what else has changed in other games? Expansions usually increase with new zones, etc. Expansions are typically built on the core of the existing game. Again it just seems people want a new game every expansion/patch.

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Final Fantasy XI. You want to know what they did there? Steady level cap rises, new zones which were actually challenging to fully explore, new jobs, new mechanics. New unique equipment that was worth owning even at high levels (not just gear which has +1 vitality). Limbus. Dynamis. Each expansion was hugely meaningful and added something new to be enjoyed for months to come.

To be honest, where FFXIV mostly falls flat is the complete lack of any reason to stay in the zones once you've completed their quests. Fates just aren't motivation enough, and they're too easy to have any kind of challenge to exploration. FFXI at least had conquest and the WoTG equivalent, with city states fighting over control. You also gained meaningful XP from enemies in the field, so experience parties were commonplace.

If they just made the overworld a bit more meaningful, they could solve a lot of problems in one sweep.

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Originally Posted by Sardonia

You tell me what else has changed in other games? Expansions usually increase with new zones, etc. Expansions are typically built on the core of the existing game. Again it just seems people want a new game every expansion/patch.

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Changes or addition to job mechanics and gameplay. For starters, BRD and NIN feels mostly the same compared to their 2.0 counterpart, while MCH feels like a reskinned BRD at times.

They added features like FC crafting, airship voyages, and the such, but it ended up reusing existing concepts (item turn ins, retainer ventures) rather than becoming it's own identity (like having multiple FC members work on a single craft instead of turning in crafted items).

If we were to take a look at WoW;


TBC - Added flying, an entirely new crafting profession, allowing both factions to access to new jobs (paladin and shaman), new races (and in a game that has racials, this is a pretty big deal)
WotlK - New crafting profession, Dungeon finder, an entirely new class, vehicles complete with their own UI, and an entire area dedicated to open world PvP

It's only until catacylsm (imo) and onward they started falling off. They had new additions like new races and a new class, but it ended up losing substance from other areas like end game. WoD from my perspective is a gigantic flop because one of their big features, the garrisons, is not nessescarly well recieved for what you're doing with it (think airship exploration and retainer venture), except the end game is also tied to it. Combine that with them taking things away from existing jobs and not necessarily giving them new things to work with. My hunter is gaining only one new ability from the entire 90-100 process, and that's only at level 100.

Heck even in WoW, despite having longer lulls in between content patches, they are usually accompanie with new areas, new questing hubs and recipes. Timeless Isle, despite being in MoP expansion, is arguably one of my favorite additions to the game for catch up and as a daily hub.

I can see you point, however, people keep saying they are tired of rehashed content but do not give any thoughts of what they actually do want. So what do people actually want that would be new to them, that would not be the same as trials, dungeons or raids?

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

in my opinion they should make the relic a 10 times harder grind, but let the weapon -once you get it- rank up automatically with every major patch, that it stays on top of all weapons forever

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Hmm, exp bar for the relic. It will start at ilevel 1 and while killing enemies it gain exp until it level up to the highest ilevel of the current update.
around 100 000 enemies to bring it from ilevel 209 to 210

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Final Fantasy XI. You want to know what they did there? Steady level cap rises, new zones which were actually challenging to fully explore, new jobs, new mechanics. New unique equipment that was worth owning even at high levels (not just gear which has +1 vitality). Limbus. Dynamis. Each expansion was hugely meaningful and added something new to be enjoyed for months to come.

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I never played XI but every single person I know has told me nightmare stories of being kicked from groups for not making your mammet a specific way, or ridiculed across the server for not doing your class/subclass in specific combos to the point that you'd NEVER get groups together. All the horror stories I hear of XI makes me think it's not the best judge of "good" MMO practices

Why do people want to make others agree that some content is bad?

Their opinion that it's "meh" or that "it's something to do" is their response/opinion. It's just as valid as saying "it sucks".

I more think people that want to dissuade the "white knights" are the actual white knights in this case. The ones people call "white knights" are defending their hobby. The people dissuading them, what are they trying to do? They want to make people think their hobby is flawed? I don't like try to "save" people that have hobbies that don't look fun to me. Am I gonna break into a knitting convention and say "What are you people doing with your lives!?" Trying to "save" other people is the actual "white knight" here. Everyone else is just defending their hobby. They aren't going to defend it if it's not doing anything for them. Even if it's just a vessel to hang out with their buddies.

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Originally Posted by Cherie

Why do people want to make others agree that some content is bad?

Their opinion that it's "meh" or that "it's something to do" is their response/opinion. It's just as valid as saying "it sucks".

I more think people that want to dissuade the "white knights" are the actual white knights in this case. The ones people call "white knights" are defending their hobby. The people dissuading them, what are they trying to do? They want to make people think their hobby is flawed? I don't like try to "save" people that have hobbies that don't look fun to me. Am I gonna break into a knitting convention and say "What are you people doing with your lives!?" Trying to "save" other people is the actual "white knight" here. Everyone else is just defending their hobby. They aren't going to defend it if it's not doing anything for them. Even if it's just a vessel to hang out with their buddies.

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People post here in the hopes that their complaints will be passed on to the devs so they can see an actual change, not to dissaude "white knights" from liking the game. The problem is, we're bringing up (in our eyes) valid issues / complaints, and people are just saying "no this game is perfect go play something else if you don't like it". While they may feel that way, aren't people who are dissatisfied also entitled to have their voices be heard, especially by the devs? They want to appeal to as many players as possible, and if something isn't resonating with the players, shouldn't we try to let them know?