Why would people get pissed off at a screenshot?
Ifrit reward system seriously needs tweaking
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10-14-2011, 03:12 PMEmeraldHill
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10-14-2011, 03:43 PMViciousValentineI think that different people have different expectations for doing endgame content. As it stands most people do content for loot, regardless of what you may think. I mean no offence by saying this...but you telling people to stop using the internet and lock up their modems....is almost as immature as people raging on the forums about their dislikes with the ifrit loot system. While i agree people are being harsh, it comes with a reason. The dev team must understand that this kind of system is too flawed for organized endgame content. It would be nice to get a Dev response on the ideas and concepts of this loot system. It seems odd having a free for all/random loot system with a highly organized boss fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
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10-14-2011, 05:04 PMQuatre
I really think the people commenting that the drop rate is perfect as is has never fought ifrit, Much less killed it.
If you've done the fight, and learned how to adapt and overcome the Animation Lock Ifrit Hard-Mode, I'm pretty sure you'd be kind of sad consistently killing it... and Getting no weapons. -
10-15-2011, 01:09 AMActusWhy else would you kill a boss fifty times other than loot?Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
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10-19-2011, 03:42 PMEcchiManRight, let's try and put this into perspective. Say you and your sibling worked all day doing chores for your parents. They give your sibling a new car, and all you get is a brand new pair of socks... that would be fine by you? You wouldn't mind, because it was a fun and satisfying experience?Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
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10-19-2011, 03:51 PMEcchiManI totally agree with this statement. It takes a lot of practice to get the timing right to avoid Ifrit's traps. Getting dark mater 10/10 times, when your party members have gotten multiple weapon drops is a bit dis-heartening. You'd have to be a hardcore masochist to enjoy that type of loot system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quatre
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10-19-2011, 04:16 PMQuatre
0/10 on weapons. This is pretty cool. It's awesome when linkshells who've killed him once have 8x the weapons.
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10-19-2011, 05:01 PMFelishttp://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/2011/10...ere/#more-9022Quote:
Gamer Escape: Speaking about the Ifrit battle… I haven’t beaten it yet, but I’ve heard that when players beat it, the items are dropped into their inventory instead of the loot pool where they could then be transferred to somebody. I’d hate to spend this time beating it to get a Conjurer weapon for my Lancer and then I’d feel bad if there was a Conjurer in my group that wanted it and I couldn’t give it to them. Is there a reason it was made that way? Or is this a bug?
Yoshida: Currently that is pretty much what we had in mind, so it’s not a bug. Because the hard mode can be played by everyone, it depends if you have the lamp or not. If you have the Inferno Lamp when you go in, it means you have a chance to get a drop. And If you don’t, it means you’re just helping and you won’t get that drop. So it looks at each player and checks for the lamp and if they have the lamp then it will randomly choose the drop and it’ll give it to each player, so it’s chosen by each player rather than the whole group. There was a lot of talk within the development team whether to look at the class and say OK if it’s this class then they only get this item or it doesn’t look at the class and gives the random item. They went with not basing it on the class because they felt that with the armory system and the way it’s set up now, players probably play a lot of different classes and might not be participating in the Ifrit battle on whatever they consider to be their main job. For example, you might really be a Lancer but because of what the party needs, you went as Gladiator. We didn’t want to penalize that player by not giving them a chance at what they really want. But that doesn’t mean it’s a perfect system. We know that players have started complaining about it. We are moving towards having a system that is closer to the need/greed system like WoW uses. Where players can… if they’re that class they can “need” it, or “greed” it if they want to use it for another class and the “needs” will get precedence over it. We’re finding out how we want to adjust that system and fit it towards FFXIV. Before we do that, we want the opinions of the community on what they feel would be the best type of loot system.
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10-19-2011, 05:09 PMZumi
How come they just don't put the items in a loot pool like on FFXI and you roll on the ones you want and pass what you don't want?
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10-19-2011, 05:12 PMChardrizard
Because you need a keyitem to receive loot.
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10-19-2011, 05:13 PMMadruk
A pointless key item.
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10-19-2011, 05:14 PMZumiThen they could just program it so only people with key item can roll on the drops. Is this key item hard to get or something. I wouldn't know since I have yet to get to level 50.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chardrizard
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10-19-2011, 05:15 PMAnswaIt's really easy to get.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zumi
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10-19-2011, 05:59 PMJinrya-Geki
Why not have the rewards give them similar way to XI?
Get the key item, fight the summon, upon defeat of ifrit get a Ifrit horn to replace the lamp.
Give the NPC the horn and choose one of the following:
A. Ifrit weapon of you choice.
B. 50,000 gil.
C. More Company Seals. -
10-19-2011, 06:02 PMBlackomegaKingofwaffles
Thanks to this fight I will never have to buy dark matter again.
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10-19-2011, 06:04 PMJinrya-Gekipffffttttt you made my night.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackomegaKingofwaffles
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10-19-2011, 06:04 PMDuuude007
Easy solution: if the chest has a duplicate weapon in it, rather than refusing to open, it could do another random roll on what comes from the chest. that way if you have bow sword and spear, you will either get dark matter again, or a different weapon.
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10-19-2011, 06:25 PMMadrukThis. I'm up to three duplicate bows now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duuude007
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10-19-2011, 06:37 PMCrica
MMORPG devs are not in the business of gearing you up faster then they can realistically release more content to gear you up in...
That would loose them money...
RNG = they get your money till the next gearing-up content is possible for them to release... -
10-19-2011, 06:58 PMBearforcei find this statement pretty laughable. how come gearing you faster makes dev,s lose money?Quote:
Originally Posted by Crica
you sir dont make sense at all. -
10-19-2011, 07:03 PMCricaBecause you unsubscribe once you are fully geared from current content until new content is able to be released...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearforce
Current content has to "last" until the new content can be released...
RNG is a reliable way to make it last... -
10-19-2011, 07:30 PMSinnerslazer
BG did an interview with Yoshi-P about this issue:
Quote:
Sonomaa (BG): How are you planning on addressing the current loot distribution quagmire that seems to plague the game right now? Ifrit drops weapons that people can't use because they don't have the jobs leveled, nor do they want to level those classes. Loot cannot be master looted, needed, or greeded, and there is no random number roll. In 2.0 how are you addressing this lack of attention in the loot table and loot distribution department?
Square-Enix: First of all, we want to make adjustments to this before 2.0. It comes down to whether or not a Need/Greed system is the best way to go? Where the player's current class dictates if they can accept the loot? There are a lot of different options. But with the Armory system being the way it is - being able to take abilities from other classes and attach them to the class you're playing - currently the game may favor this one class with a certain combination. But in future battles maybe it will be other jobs (once implemented), with different abilities, will become more popular and so players will want items that they can use in the future. So it comes down to which is the best type of system that corresponds with the unique Armory system. And so designing a system that meets that is very difficult. Actually, he (Yoshida) has a question for you - what would you think be the most optimal loot system for the current FFXIV?
BG: There honestly isn't a question of that. The World of Warcraft system of Need/Greed and the option of a Master Looter. If say, I'm a Warrior, and I'm on Warrior. I can Need on Warrior gear, but I can't Need on Thief gear. But I can Greed on Thief gear! So that way it can be an option - a Need before Greed. This is something that went down in FFXI. You had Black Mages spending their DKP on E Bodies (Earthen Abjuration: Body/Adaman Hauberk), when Warriors did not have E Bodies.
SE: Regarding the DKP - because it's a big issue on the forums - we hope to address this along with the Free Company issue on Lodestone really soon, so please keep an eye there. But we agree that this Need/Greed system is what we want for the game - at least a variation on this, of course. So in the coming months, this will be one of the things addressed on Lodestone, but this will be something that does not have to wait for 2.0.
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10-19-2011, 07:34 PMKeftenk
Most frustrating thing is seeing dedicated members that have gone for 85%+ of the time, get nothing. Only to freak out and rage because of Yoshida's terrible decision. Could this be considered griefing the player? Haha!
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10-19-2011, 08:44 PMZanfire
im getting close to doing this fight ...but wow, random? i cant tell you how much id rage if one of my friends got the lance, or i got the mage weapon or either of us got the axe lol.
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10-19-2011, 09:05 PMChardrizardAt least he'll feel accomplished when he finally got it, something that you rarely gets these days :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Keftenk
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10-19-2011, 09:32 PMRadav
If they want to increase the replayability of the fight there are much better ways to do it. Having a completely assbackwards way of distributing loot is not the best option and I just wanted to add another reply to this thread to let the devs know they need to fix it.
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10-20-2011, 01:48 AMKiara
To Yoshida-san and the Final Fantasy XIV Team:
As requested by you in the interview with Gamer Escape, I hope the Community Reps pass along our suggestions to you about the horrible Loot System you have for Ifrit:
Quote:
Gamer Escape: Speaking about the Ifrit battle… I haven’t beaten it yet, but I’ve heard that when players beat it, the items are dropped into their inventory instead of the loot pool where they could then be transferred to somebody. I’d hate to spend this time beating it to get a Conjurer weapon for my Lancer and then I’d feel bad if there was a Conjurer in my group that wanted it and I couldn’t give it to them. Is there a reason it was made that way? Or is this a bug?
Yoshida: Currently that is pretty much what we had in mind, so it’s not a bug. Because the hard mode can be played by everyone, it depends if you have the lamp or not. If you have the Inferno Lamp when you go in, it means you have a chance to get a drop. And If you don’t, it means you’re just helping and you won’t get that drop. So it looks at each player and checks for the lamp and if they have the lamp then it will randomly choose the drop and it’ll give it to each player, so it’s chosen by each player rather than the whole group. There was a lot of talk within the development team whether to look at the class and say OK if it’s this class then they only get this item or it doesn’t look at the class and gives the random item. They went with not basing it on the class because they felt that with the armory system and the way it’s set up now, players probably play a lot of different classes and might not be participating in the Ifrit battle on whatever they consider to be their main job. For example, you might really be a Lancer but because of what the party needs, you went as Gladiator. We didn’t want to penalize that player by not giving them a chance at what they really want. But that doesn’t mean it’s a perfect system. We know that players have started complaining about it. We are moving towards having a system that is closer to the need/greed system like WoW uses. Where players can… if they’re that class they can “need” it, or “greed” it if they want to use it for another class and the “needs” will get precedence over it. We’re finding out how we want to adjust that system and fit it towards FFXIV. Before we do that, we want the opinions of the community on what they feel would be the best type of loot system.
At the very minimum, having a Master Loot / Quartermaster System from XI (where you can designate who gets what loot) is a huge step up from having drops auto-dumped randomly into people's inventories (and them being Rare/EX (Unique / Untradeable)).
I'm not familiar with WoW's Need/Greed System but it sounds like that also helps people specify their #1 and #2 "most wanted" gear from completing a challenge?
The auto-dumping method is just baffling and seems to be a very frustrating / unfair / rage-worthy way of inducing cheap replay value (forcing players to battle Ifrit over and over to hope they randomly get their auto-dumped drop into their own inventory (since you can't trade / pass it to others)) to buy the Dev Team some time for 1.20.
Even with a Key Item involved (which is super easy to get), at the minimum, a Master Loot / Quartermaster System would make the most sense.
Or keep it like you had in Dzemael Darkhold (where it drops in someone's Loot Pool so they can Pass it to others if need be). That requires NO additional technology or new systems, and at least is fairer than what you put in for Ifrit.
Thanks. -
10-20-2011, 02:32 AMCrica
The only thing that is going to be different with Need/Greed is that Tank types are going to get no loot competition while the rest of the 8man party is going to have to roll the dice and hope they win.
RNG is RNG no matter how you look at it - unless you are a Tank type.
/shrug -
10-20-2011, 03:11 AMEcchiManI bet you they loose more money from people moving on to another game, due to the frustration cause by this idiotic loot system. I'm 0/20 at the moment, on the verge of moving on myself. I don't like doing the same fight 50 times just to get 10 stacks of dark matter. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Crica
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10-20-2011, 03:48 AMTeakwood
The problem with need/greed is that it only really works if you only have one job leveled. If the game prevents you from "need"ing an item for MRD, which is your main, because you're on THM because it's useful in the fight you're doing, for example, that'd also be pretty suboptimal.
Definitely suggest at -least- a quartermaster system, or make Ifrit drops behave like other drops in the system until 2.0 comes out (less optimal), or auto-drop items to people's inventories that can then be traded in for an Ifrit weapon of the person's choice. -
10-20-2011, 04:11 AMZumi
The way need/greed works in WoW is this. If you can use an item you can hit need on it. Which will roll 1-100 vs any other people that hit need. Get the highest roll you win. If you can't use an item need is grayed out and you can only hit greed / disenchant (destroy the item for mats). However people that hit greed/disenchant only get a shot to roll on the item if nobody hit need. In that case all players get a 1-100 roll then get the item to vendor or do whatever they want with.
In WoW players can only be 1 class and the game knows if they can use it or not so they don't really have problems with getting stuff people can't use. -
10-20-2011, 05:04 AMKeftenk
It's hard to think after all this progress of good content and improvements SE and Yoshida are doing to move the game in the right direction, then this happens. I don't know how this even logically makes sense to do loot like this. I almost think it actually was secretly intended so that it ended up being a ridiculous time sink since SE can't seem to create content that fills up 2 months worth (before a next patch).
Not to derail, but why are some of the sentinel pieces of gear not rare/ex (and from coffers like Ifrit), but the rest are. Also with that, why are all sorcerers and siphia gear rare/ex and none of it like the materiable sentinel gear <____>
Itemization in this patch makes no sense....fire the guy/team that does it lol -
10-20-2011, 05:08 AMCricaPeople like you are going to move on regardless if you win end game gear right away (I'm fully geared, nothing left to do! I'm off to play another game till new content is able to be released!) or have to wait a while until new content is closer to being ready for release before you are able to win end game gear (damn it I did not win the gear right when I wanted it so I'm off to play another game that will let me win it right when I want it and I will be off to another game after that until new content is able to be released for that game!)Quote:
Originally Posted by EcchiMan
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10-20-2011, 06:12 AMEcchiManIf you put in the hard effort to learn this fight, I'm sure you'd be singing a different tune when you get dark matter 25 times in a row, while your ls mate gets 6 drops, 2 of which were destroyed. I will play another game, because it is my god given right as a human being... it's called freedom of choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crica
If they continue down this road, I see a very bleak future for FFXIV 2.0. I played FFXI for 5 years, and never had this kind of grief over rewards. Hell, I've stuck through one year of this game and haven't complained one bit; but this just broke the camel's back. It's a total POS system. -
10-20-2011, 06:28 AMDuuude007I disagree. this creates a drastically easier opportunity for people to get fully geared in a short period of time, which is exactly what se doesnt want, and I tend to side with that opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiara
That being said, I also concur that the duplicates people are forced to have is excessive and causes more frustration than getting dark matter instead of a weapon.
Any new weapon is a motivator to rank up another class, even if some people will not, but the duplicates are creating a sense of futility, because people got a weapon chest, but they have not improved themselves in any way having acquired it.
This is why I suggest that the random roll a chest has... is repeated if the existing reward is already in the player's inventory. The odds of a weapon drop would not be improved , nor can one player be traded 3 new weapons in a single fight via loot table. The duplicate issue would be the only thing adjusted, to allow weapon proc to = new weapon, rather than disappointment. -
10-20-2011, 12:33 PMBlair
Drop Rate is low.
For now I get 1/20, another ls is like 2/25, the best i see is like 4/35, 1 weapon overlap.... something like that..
Rest of the time you get dark matters
If you forget the lamp, you get fire portion.
Above are successful kill by the way.
So good luck on getting the weapon you want. ( all by luck and hard work i suppose) -
10-21-2011, 07:17 AMEcchiManTell me about it, I'm 0/35 and rising. :( My LS mate got about 7/35. :D Maybe my lamp is broken, only can get dm. :oQuote:
Originally Posted by Blair
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10-21-2011, 07:26 AMkensredemptionDoesn't change the fact that people can still ninja roll on it, especially if there's profit to be made off of it. ;) Although, I'm still not all too familiar with how the loot system works in XIV yet. All I've seen in the Loot List so far are Antelope Shanks and Marmot Meat. -_-Quote:
Originally Posted by Zumi
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10-21-2011, 07:27 AMneizero
I like the fact that everyone gets a chance to get SOMETHING, and not being able to trade actually eliminates any chance of loot drama so I'm not too unhappy about that either.
Yes, there will come a time when you get a weapon you don't need and you cant give it to your friend who does, but since you can spam the raid, I don't see this as a massive problem, you keep running it and eventually everyone will have everything they want. I guess it's a way of making the raid last until 1.20... -
10-21-2011, 04:29 PMEcchiManI wouldn't mind the system if the odds differentiation weren't so unbalanced. Tell me, how does 1 person get 0 weapon drops during 35 odd runs, while others get a few drops, even worse the lucky few who get 8 plus drops? This system is very unbalanced; some players will take years to get all the weapons, while others will take less than a week...doesn't seem logical at all. If they'd let duplicate items pop up in that person's loot window, it would at least help alleviate the skewed drop rates that's programed into this fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by neizero
To me, it seems like a reward the lucky few and punish the rest kinda of scenario. This system will only cause grief to the masses... while making those lucky few with high drop rates to get bored quickly and patiently wait for the next big patch. Why can't they make a more balanced and fair system. Even a token system would be better. Let's say Ifrit drops fragments of his horns that is guaranteed to each player with a lamp. Then said player would have to trade in a set number of horn fragments to a npc that in turn builds the weapon for them. Doesn't that sound more reasonable and fair to every player who participates, and not just the lucky few? It would also lengthen the time it takes to earn a weapon and feel some sort of hard fought achievement in doing so...instead of the instant gratification that we get now.