What definition is that?
Powerleveling ruined my day
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10-10-2011, 03:14 PMLavani
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10-10-2011, 03:39 PMMugiwara
Since people don't understand how game balance works here you go:
reasons why Abrupt leveling kills MMOs:
1: Economy: This hugely affects the economy because PLing your classes will not require you to gear your self until late game. So what happens to all the gear LV1-40 in the markets? It sits right there. Crafters and people who farm mats for gils will definitely feel the backlash from this. If you have any sense of analytical and observation skills you can look into the future of what downward spiral the economy will go into if the PL scenario worsens.
2: Server Character Level Distribution: New players will later find it hard to make and find group later down the line when people start to have multiple 50s and start the ever popular end game grind for gear. The content created by the devs for LV1-40 will be completely destroyed like it was in FFXI in Abyssea (might not be correct spelling) and will turn this game into another type of grindfest... the endgame grindfest.
3. Promotion of the lack of In-Game knowledge: This sounds fun doesn't it?! Lets not have no clue what we are doing, let alone what types of abilities are viable in class builds and end-game setups. Why can't these things be taught through player experiences and strife? That is the true way to stimulate sense of accomplishment!
4. Veteran Buzz-Kill = Loss players: Lets observe a real-life scenario. Let's say you worked intensely hard at a job and finally earned a promotion after 12 years of dedicated service. Then next week a new hire is suddenly jolted to your rank after 3 months. We saw this in FFXI and no one can't argue that the server population didn't suffer from it. Come on SE! don't you learn your lesson!? How would the current vets feel about this nonsense? Think before you post, please... -
10-10-2011, 05:10 PMMrKupo
There is only one reason why this is a problem, and the reason for any other problems. It is the reason mmorpgs are worth playing... ePeen. This can be interpreted as a good thing or bad thing but it is said that if people were given the choice between everyone having absolutely everything or the person in question having just a little more than everybody else, the person would be happier with having just a little more than everyone else. This is because happiness is relative.
ePeen. People worked their asses off for the past year to make their ePenises larger than everyone elses. So of course the complaining starts when SE starts handing out eViagra.
So no, it doesn't affect an individual's gameplay. But it does affect how satisfied players are when comparing themselves to other players (one huge factor in online gameplay). -
10-10-2011, 05:21 PMRaikkiI don't think this is true, I think the majority of the complaints are from people without a lot of 50s. Personally, even though my levels were a lot of work for me I don't care if someone power levels it all in a fraction of the time now. I'm not interested in resting on past achievements. Even if it's faster now, people who already have it done still have it done. You haven't lost anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrKupo
As for what it does to the economy for gear under level 40... Who cares? It's not hard to craft/gather your way high enough to make stuff relevant to the high level crowd. You don't even have to grind or bankroll it with gil if you don't want to; it goes fast enough just doing leves. Don't forget you can do way more leves, and of higher quality at that, for 1 specific DoH/DoL class than you could before. I'm doing twice as many FSH leves now as I could before patch and it's going much faster and I don't even have to leave Limsa. -
10-10-2011, 05:59 PMLavaniTLDR anyone?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugiwara
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10-10-2011, 06:03 PMSaburo
Just trying to build a regular party has become a pain. Everyone take PL as a standard now.
Yesterday a lv30ish wanted to join my 42+ party. When I said no, I was the bad guy because "it won't affect my xp".
So I should take leeches just because xp sn't affected?
This is pathetic.
In the long run, the expertise of HL players will go down the drain.
9/10 ppl will just play their job wrong and won't have a clue of what going on. -
10-10-2011, 06:14 PMRaikkiGrinding levels doesn't teach raid skills at all. I used to think this, too, but it doesn't hold up. Bad players will be bad players and good players will be good players, the level up process doesn't seem to have any impact. The only experience that helps with bosses is past boss experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saburo
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10-10-2011, 06:19 PMVahzl
While these arguments are getting incredibly boring now, I just wanna add my 2c to the mix:
- I quit for 3 months, leaving my 50THM behind, on returning, alot of things had changed, and I couldn't remember how to play, 3 mob kills later and I had relearned my class, so the skill level thing is irrelevant.
- I have been power levelling my new character, and really enjoying the locations we have been visiting, and sharing the load as we go, seems like a lot of fun, and for shame if I was to actually enjoy myself in a game.
- Seems the forums haven't changed one bit. No matter what gets changed, the next thing will always be the end of the world. Same thing on the WoW forums too, player spend months complaining about one thing, saying they will quit/kill themselves/hunt down employees if it isn't fixed, and when it gets fixed, it's forgotten in hours, and then the next thing is their target of aggressive language.
As always though, it amuses me how dumb people can be on this forum :D -
10-10-2011, 09:03 PMEnma
I'll be honest, I don't know how powerleveling could ruin the gameplay also because you can PL only till 30 maybe 35. Sure, perhaps it should be fixed a little bit, but I think that someone is doing the problem bigger than it is.
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10-10-2011, 09:49 PMGodking
Then quit like the other idiots who are because powerleveling "ruined" everything.
Waaa. Get over it. -
10-10-2011, 11:06 PMMolly_MillionsI'm not sure I follow. I have a blast every time I PL someone. In my LS, we don't afk follow for PLing sessions. Instead we all get on voice chat and mess around quite a bit, get to know each other, which strengthens bonds between members.Quote:
Originally Posted by Denmo
Maybe in your LS you don't do this, instead opting to AFK follow the powerleveler. I agree, that's no fun. -
10-10-2011, 11:11 PMJinkoI do agree that it is a bit of kick in the face to those of us who had to grind like crazy to get to 50.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadRiser
There really is no need for PL'ing with the XP chains now, duno what Yoshi-p was thinking when he let this take place. -
10-11-2011, 12:47 AMFireHeroLol i never heard some one so stupid you obviously didn't read what i put but i guess that's all i can expected from a stubborn foolQuote:
Originally Posted by Denmo
How about read my post before you mock it or is that to hard for you? -
10-11-2011, 01:12 AMMolly_Millions
hmmm... I forsee a lock coming
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10-11-2011, 01:15 AMPrettyPrincess
You ruined your own day.
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10-11-2011, 01:22 AMQuesseIts only pointless because SE makes it pointless. It would be perfectly feasible to have a satisfying leveling experience like a lot of rpgs I enjoy. More fun, more variety, more sense of accomplishment.Quote:
Originally Posted by viion
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10-11-2011, 01:44 AMRorix
Ok, I think people are overreacting about this, sure, PL is not fair for those that worked hard on getting all those jobs to R50in the past year but I think that Yoshi-P wanted to make the game more "friendly" to the casual player and not turn the game into a "hardcore elite grind fest only"
If you feel uncomfortable about PL, don't do it, I've been leveling with parties and doing leves only and sure, I get more exp now but I'm having a lot of fun because everyone's trying to kill the mobs faster so we don't lose chain and it gives you a sense of acomplishment since you feel really happy to see that you gained 2-3 lvls in a 2hrs exp grind party than to see that you just gained only half a level in the same setup before patch 1.19.
It all depends on how you see things, if they want to PL, let them! You can always go in a grind party and go your own way, sure, they will level faster than you, but you will enjoy the game more. :D -
10-11-2011, 01:51 AMEekikiHow much does the game company you work for pay you to design games for them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugiwara
Oh, that's right. You aren't a game designer.
Thank goodness for that. -
10-11-2011, 01:54 AMViolentDjangobecause not everyone power levels. A lot of people enjoy leveling, and frankly, the only problem is that those same people want to force EVERYONE to do things their way. People will do the midlevel content if they want to, if they don't, then forcing them to do it doesn't really help the fact they don't want to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadRiser
People who want to get to level cap quickly will do it quickly regardless of the limitations you put on them. Power Leveling is not the huge, game breaking problem people are making it out to be. Those same people who are power leveling would likely be the same people who become elitists levelers who only want people who can get them to level 50 as fast as humanly possible. I'd rather my parties be full of people who play at the same pace as me, as opposed to people who are going to whine because the group isn't fast enough. -
10-11-2011, 01:59 AMEekiki
We need to go deeper.
That was already the case pre-1.18 even. There was little gear in the wards besides endgame stuff, and what was there was prohibitively expensive for new players. The reason the economy will be fine can be summed up in one word: MateriaQuote:
Originally Posted by Mugiwara
So what? They can solo grind. That isn't as fast as PLing. Isn't that what you want?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugiwara
Which would happen anyway. SE's just making it happen faster since most of the playerbase had at least one class at R50 pre-1.19Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugiwara
I'm sure you know that partying in a raid or boss fight is a completely different animal than partying in a EXP grind PT. Tactics and skills that work in a grind do not always translate well to endgame content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugiwara
This isn't a job. It shouldn't be a job. I already have a job. When I get home from my job, I want to have fun and relax.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugiwara
Also, the server population suffered in FFXI because THEY RELEASED A NEW MMO. Were it not for FFXIV, we'd probably all still be playing XI. -
10-11-2011, 02:03 AMViolentDjangoSeriously...Quote:
Originally Posted by Eekiki
I wrote about why games have steep leveling curves in my blog a few days ago. It has nothing to do with the economy or anything ridiculous like that. Its almost entirely for the hedonic treadmill, i.e. giving players a carrot to chase after while developers work on new content.
It has NO effect on anything other than the amount of time players invest into a game. When its taken you a year to get to level cap, you're more likely to stick to the game even when you're fundamentally unhappy with it because you've already invested so much time and effort into it. Leveling curves make this happen by dangling a goal infront of you, then slowly increasing the difficulty of the road you're walking down until you finally get it.
Its the same basic treadmill all video games are built around. Each level in Super Mario Brothers is designed to be more difficult or at least more complex than the previous because once you achieve a certain level of success, achieving things of similar levels become progressively less thrilling due to hedonic adaption.
Leveling is the first stage of the MMO treadmill, High level gear and end game content is the next. Its a basic formula to keep people interested.
[Challenge] => [Reward] => [Challenge]+1 => [Reward] => [Challenge]+2 = [Reward]
In the case of leveling it goes like this:
[Grind EXP] => [New Ability] => [Grind More EXP] => [New Ability/Gear] => [Grind Even More EXP] => [Level Cap] => [End Game Treadmill]
The only problem created by power leveling is the issue of players circumventing the hook and snagging the bait. People who rush to level cap don't get reeled in by the treadmill, and it makes them less likely to stick to the game if no new content is produced aimed at them. That's why developers dislike Power Leveling, because it allows people to get to the end of the game more quickly than they intended and the treadmill effect doesn't kick in.
On the player side, the only effect power leveling has is a result of either PL'd players complaining about lack of content -- which they have no right to do, since they sped through all of the content that's supposed to keep them occupied; or nonPL players complaining because they feel Power leveled players are /cheating/ which they are not.
The real problem is that developers use leveling as a crutch when they should focus on challenging, substantial content as a means to keep players in their games. Granted, I understand that's a terrifyingly difficult thing to achieve, but frankly, its what we should be demanding for our time and money.
This also goes on to explain why FFXI's community started to taper off, just like WoW's is. The treadmill stopped working. The goals presented in FFXI and in WoW these days are significantly LESS difficult and compelling than the ones previously introduced, and there's nothing they can do to fix that because the games are so old and each iteration of new content supersedes the previous in largely uninteresting ways.
FFXI and WoW are dying because all games die. You can cite other games that have lived for ridiculous amounts of time, but honestly, most of them have lasted because of modding and open-ended content, or because they are maintained by a cult following the likes of which neither WoW nor FFXI will have. Frankly, on the subject of WoW, Blizzard only managed to maintain it because of the social magnetism it managed to garnish -- a massive number of those millions of subscribers were casuals who used the game as a social outlet.
Fun fact, the end game community of a game is seldom larger than 10% of the games population.
Clarification: The treadmill effect and the attachment are separate things, the attachment just happens to feed off of the treadmill. The hedonic treadmill is a reoccurring lust for new challenge due to the human brain's tendency to adapt (hedonic adaption) to the extremes of joy (Experienced from success) or conversely sadness (experience from loss) and our desire to hunt down higher levels of success to recreate the previously experienced high -- the resulting attachment to something is from retrospective analysis of time spent. (not sure if there's really a name for it, but this occurs with a lot of things, including physical fitness, as people feel attached to their developed bodies and thus seek to maintain and improve their physical condition almost obsessively) They aren't the same, but in my post I related them to each other in my reference to "the treadmill effect" because they occur symbiotically. -
10-11-2011, 02:59 AMTsugaBasically this. Once people are able to get all of their classes to 50 in a matter of days, it cheapens the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by ViolentDjango
This game doesn't have enough end game content as it is to support the people that got to 50 legitimately. If people are getting rushed to 50, they could potentially get bored of the end game really fast, and they won't have the attachment to their character, or the game that working to 50 would have generated.
This is also a problem for crafters. Low and mid level gear will be pointless to craft if everyone is getting rushed through those levels.
Lastly it's a problem for new players that don't have anyone to PL them, because they will have less and less people to play with.
Edit:
Agreed. The problem is that so many people got to Lv50 so quickly that they started demanding end game content. Now the devs are struggling to keep the end game crowd happy, while giving less substantial content to the low level crowd, which makes the low level crowd just want to rush to 50, and skip the "grind" that's in place due to a lack of low level content.Quote:
The real problem is that developers use leveling as a crutch when they should focus on challenging, substantial content as a means to keep players in their games. Granted, I understand that's a terrifyingly difficult thing to achieve, but frankly, its what we should be demanding for our time and money.
Basically the end game is killing the mid game. If there were more of a focus on the early to mid game, then there should be no reason that power leveling would even be necessary at all because ideally there would not be the perceived "grind" that we currently have. -
10-11-2011, 03:40 AMJasper
I will cancel my account SE if the PL is not fixed, This is my 2 weeks notice SE!!!!!
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10-11-2011, 03:42 AMEekikiI've heard this a million times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasper
"If SE doesn't fix X, I'm canceling my account and never playing a SE game again!!!1"
one month later:
"If SE doesn't fix Y, I'm canceling my account and never playing a SE game again!!!2" -
10-11-2011, 03:56 AMAnapingofness
This is hardly cheating.
Making a small aspect of the game better is a good thing. Even Yoshi-P stated that leveling isn't the main part of the game.
So as long as people can choose what they want to do everybody should be happy.
Furthermore, yes, it does suck when you have a level 50 player killing your mobs but you know, it's why we have words. Ask that person to move or something. It's not guaranteed to work but the more community based this game becomes the less assholes you have to worry about.
People need to get used to the idea of sharing camps or zones, it's really as simple as that. -
10-11-2011, 04:00 AMAnapingofnessYou are correct in what you say. We need more content to fill up the gap from lvl 1 to level 50. Even with PLing still available in the game the fact that there is so much there content wise will keep people from rushing to lvl 50.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsuga
However, that is not the case and personally, I find grinding loathsome. I'm glad that they gave people the option to level up to 50 quickly.
As far as having nobody else to play with well... people need to go out there and meet new people, it sounds mean but it's true. I'm guilty of not doing that but right now I don't really mind it. I'm not on long enough for that to matter. Once I have more time I'll make friends and it won't be an issue. -
10-11-2011, 04:07 AMAkayoAkayu
Agree with OP, needs to be fixed asap. Of course ppl who dont really care like PL, but SE needs to listen to the hundreds of ppl saying its bullcrap.
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10-11-2011, 04:07 AMneorei
if powerleveling brings my friends back to this game, then i support it.
Friends > haters
my powerleveling brings all the girls to the yard -
10-11-2011, 04:10 AMDenmoI cannot agree with this guy's post more. May you receive many thumbs up for the time you took to clarify the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by ViolentDjango
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10-11-2011, 04:11 AMEekikiYes. Don't listen to the thousands who are playing the game and enjoying it right now. Listen to the hundreds complaining about it here.Quote:
Originally Posted by AkayoAkayu
EDIT: divide all units by 10 -
10-11-2011, 04:12 AMDenmo</argument against every forum complaint ever>Quote:
Originally Posted by Eekiki
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10-11-2011, 04:13 AMEekikiLogic is a bitch, ain't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Denmo
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10-11-2011, 04:16 AMDenmo
I know right? With a couple sarcastic sentences you've managed to disregard everyone's opinion on the forum. It's amazing.
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10-11-2011, 04:17 AMViolentDjangoI always tell people, forums don't accurately represent the player base, because most of the people who spend all day complaining don't spend any time playing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eekiki
I remember when folks rallied on KillingIfrit saying that KI was the authority for what players want, even though KI's membership never broke 10% of FFXI's peek player base.
Case in point:
Today KI has 3,479 pages of members with 19 members per page. That's 66,101 members -- even discounting the fact that a lot of those are going to be illegitimate accounts (trolling duplicates, spam, people who changed their online aliases -- even I have two accounts there), that's only barely 10% of the highest recorded FFXI population (that I could find -- which was 650,000).
Forums don't really represent the people playing the game. Not to say they don't represent meaningful opinions and facts about the gaming experience ... but numbers don't really lie -- they'll always be tons more people playing than there are on forums complaining. -
10-11-2011, 04:33 AMEekiki
If SE corporate wasn't pleased with FFXIV's numbers, I don't think Wada would have shown his face on last Tuesday's webcast.
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10-11-2011, 06:33 AMlenn1I dont know what game you were playing pre 1.19 but all of your points have been in the game since one month after launch. Ironically 1.19 is helping some of these problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugiwara
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10-11-2011, 06:44 AMTsugaThat's why the devs should work on creating a more filled out early to middle game, instead of trying to rush everyone to end game. It is a problem if the level base is too top heavy, especially this early in the game's life cycle. I'd quote ViolentDjango's post, but it was pretty big. I suggest you read it on pg. 11, he spelled it out better than I ever could.Quote:
Originally Posted by lenn1
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10-11-2011, 06:52 AMAlhanelemDear SE: Please don't fix this, in light of the above sentence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasper
<3 <3 -
10-11-2011, 07:44 AMXophious
Greetings everyone!
Thank you all for taking the time to post your feedback! I can see why many of you would be upset about some of the changes in the patch and I can assure you are not being unheard. We have forwarded the feedback you have been giving us. Since there are other threads similar to this one, it will be locked now. Thanks again!