Gratulation to Elysium but disappointed of Lucrezia

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It is a pretty cheesy way to avoid the mechanic, it obviously isn't intended and people comparing this to T2 avoiding rot and thinking they aren't the same are incorrect, you are avoiding a core mechanic happening.

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You realize that's exactly what the T2 enrage strat does too, right?

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

You realize that's exactly what the T2 enrage strat does too, right?

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That's what I was saying, it is worded poorly. Avoiding rot by enrage strat is the same level of cheese to me as this.

I'm not here to say anything is or isn't cheesing (I'm a raid newb and wouldn't know mozzarella from ez-cheese anyway), but I'm honestly curious about something. How ARE T5 divebombs "supposed" to be handled? I thought baiting an AoE and then dodging it en-mass was a standard and intended strategy. Are you "supposed" to spread out and watch for where Twintania comes down and who she targets, and then dodge perpendicular to her path? Isn't a simplification of that strategy all gathering in one place and all dodging together, like Weights in Titan Ex? Isn't that what the standard DB strategy does?

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Originally Posted by Nyalia

Are you "supposed" to spread out and watch for where Twintania comes down and who she targets, and then dodge perpendicular to her path? Isn't a simplification of that strategy all gathering in one place and all dodging together, like Weights in Titan Ex? Isn't that what the standard DB strategy does?

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That's exactly that. But the pit strategy doesn't revolve around this (at least, not directly).

Twintania will come from the border of the arena, from the closest edge behind the targeted player. However, the pit forces twintania to consider the height difference between the bottom of the pit and the rest of the arena as an edge. Thus, she will rush to the outside of the ring if you are deep enough, leaving an easy LoS area behind her.

The "intended" way to dodge her dives is far more punishing if you mess up the timer or are a slowpoke, but ironically allows for more errors as you aren't instantly thrown into fire if you have some luck.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

The arena is a circle. There are no corners.

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There are some definition of corner and it's actually a corner (or extremity if you want, I can be wrong with the word since in french it's a synonym).
The arena is a circle but not flat, that's why there are some corners.

The exact word is maybe border/side but again I'm french, sorry if it's wrong to say corner this way.

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Originally Posted by Khyan

There are some definition of corner and it's actually a corner (or extremity if you want, I can be wrong with the word since in french it's a synonym).
The arena is a circle but not flat, that's why there are some corners.

The exact word is maybe border/side but again I'm french, sorry if it's wrong to say corner this way.

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In English, corners are, very specifically, the things that are created when two lines or planes intersect.

The areas you bait the divebomb into could be called many things--divets, dips, holes, recessions, etc. etc. but not corners.

I'm a little tired, so I apologize if that comes off as blunt, but trust that my intent is to educate not shame or insult.

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Originally Posted by Krylo

In English, corners are, very specifically, the things that are created when two lines or planes intersect.

The areas you bait the divebomb into could be called many things--divets, dips, holes, recessions, etc. etc. but not corners.

I'm a little tired, so I apologize if that comes off as blunt, but trust that my intent is to educate not shame or insult.

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Thank you. But with that "hole" we can barely see two intersecting lines (depend of camera view).
http://bucket.bluegartr.com/ce1b0e91...0a033ef62a.png

It's not really lines (since it's a circle) but it can be confusing.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

The "intended" way to dodge her dives is far more punishing if you mess up the timer or are a slowpoke, but ironically allows for more errors as you aren't instantly thrown into fire if you have some luck.

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Ah, okay, thank you for the explanation! I actually wonder if my raid group would have cleared sooner if we had just done it the way you describe rather than the "standard" pit strategy. With the pit, if one person moves a second too soon, everyone gets hit, most get knocked into the wall and killed, and it's a wipe. If someone moves a couple seconds late, they get hit and likely knocked into a wall and killed. But, we didn't try to find another way to do it, because we knew that way worked if everyone did it right, and we're not resourceful enough to try something different than what we knew worked xD

So, I'm not going to argue if it's cheese or not, but it certainly doesn't negate the core mechanic or remove all of the threat from the mechanic... You still have to deal with the mechanic, and you still do it in a way that's similar to the "intended" way. You just use game engine quirks to make it easier to deal with.


And the pit is totally a corner if you look at it (image in the above post). You find the corner in the round room and sit there. Makes it easy to identify and describe!

I don't blame them tbh. A4S Nisi/Pentacle is an awful sadistic mechanic and I hope they never use anything like that again.

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Originally Posted by Subucnimorning

It is a pretty cheesy way to avoid the mechanic, it obviously isn't intended and people comparing this to T2 avoiding rot and thinking they aren't the same are incorrect, you are avoiding a core mechanic happening. That being said it isn't THAT big of a deal, if you aren't in the guilds competing for first kill it has no effect on you. If it was a big deal SE would fix it and they haven't yet.

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the big thing here is, this is not just a bug in the encounter exploit.
Like "do X and the encounter freezes up or skips mechanics for some inexplicable reason" type of deal

this is a well known, base design of the game thing. At this point they probably couldn't fix it even if they wanted to.

This is the same reason you can start moving during a spell cast and still have it finish
the same reason you can get hit by AoE you've definitely cleared
the same reason a guy that jumps out of an aoe at the same time someone else walks out avoids the damage simply because he jumped

This game updates positioning of everything simultaneously on a fairly large interval.

It's not hard to compare it to games like WoW, Tera, or wildstar where you can escape telegraphs by a hairs breadth and never get hit by them unless there is genuine connectivity issues at hand

They don't really have any option but to congratulate the people taking advantage of it because it's something they can't, or choose not to, do anything about.
It's kind of an obvious thing if you think about it

a company releases a product with a serious design flaw they know they can do nothing about
someone finds a way to abuse that flaw for self gain
if the company openly chastises the flaw abuser they are only shining light on the flaw they can't fix for the world to see many of which will now use it themselves

on the other hand take twintania bug

company has an unintended development oversight
someone abuses it for self gain
immediate punishment and fix of said oversight


that said
It's a mechanic that involves juggling two nasty dots on 6 of your 8 raid members for half of the encounter on purpose and if any of the 3 people with one DoT comes into contact with any of the 3 with the other Dot they both die and then you need to do a coordinated placement puzzle where all the people with DoTs need to stand on corresponding circles and can't overlap or hit 2 or each other, while maintaining the juggling of said nasty dots.

it's downright sadistic and never should have passed as a mechanic to begin with.

also worth noting no one seems to have any issue at all with the other mechanic skip of letting the dolls self destruct and reset everyone's mp to 0 because somehow no one having mana is the better alternative to having to kill the doll...
just like people dying is the better alternative to dealing with the DoT juggling, party separating, puzzle game

which btw, all requires doing a long bunch of boring nothing phases before you even get to attempt any of it which also sucks

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the big thing here is, this is not just a bug in the encounter exploit.
Like "do X and the encounter freezes up or skips mechanics for some inexplicable reason" type of deal

this is a well known, base design of the game thing. At this point they probably couldn't fix it even if they wanted to.

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It's worth noting that if they REALLY didn't want people doing something like this, they could have just spaced the nisi bombs out more so that sprint + jump wouldn't cover the distance (or if they really wanted to stomp this into the ground, just make it so that any nisi bomb tripped incorrectly = death for the whole raid and not just that one person), much like how if they didn't want people doing the enrage method on T2 they could have just made it so that it instantly killed instead of just pulsing a manageable 2k AoE every few seconds that never scaled upward. It's not like coil was short on instant death mechanics.

I'm hoping though that SE is through with their whole "lv75 era Absolute Virtue" ways of handling things; as in someone finds a way to beat something that the devs didn't intend to happen -> devs immediately nerf the method so that the encounter can only be won in the way that they intended

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I'm hoping though that SE is through with their whole "lv75 era Absolute Virtue" ways of handling things; as in someone finds a way to beat something that the devs didn't intend to happen -> devs immediately nerf the method so that the encounter can only be won in the way that they intended

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they never did that. we killed coil t1 boss without feeding and after the two snakes combined again to only one, t2 enrage, using the hole in t5 for dodge dive bombs, don't get the debuff in levi ex by healing only with regen and fairy... that is all still possible... and not sure if solotank in shiva ex should be possible... in that moment a fight is implemented in the game, the community finds a way to work around the mechanics xD

and sqaure only fixes bugs / exploits. using the delay to get two orbs insted of one is such a thing wich should be fixed.

okay, there was one thing: tanking ramuh ex with titan-egi.

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

However, the problem with this thread in general (other than the fact of it's obvious trolling intents) is that both groups are technically right. Both of these statements are equally true:

1) Using server delay tricks based on the tick timer was not the intended way the developers of this content wanted people to complete the mechanics. If it was, I would be astonished to say the least.
2) Yoshi has already congratulated both Elysium and Lucrezia for completing the final turn of Alex Savage.

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Excellent reply. At the end of the day, it was Square's oversight that makes the method possible. They are aware of the infrastructure of their game engine and servers, although of course it gets muddled when you keep in mind that their internal playtesting is done over LAN with 0 ping. Which would raise the question on if it was even possible during testing. So, teams have noticed a dent in the armor that Square didn't expect. Congratulations to them, and I hope they enjoy their clear.

However, I would hope that Square would make note of how egregious the steps are taken to make such a method possible, and would step in and change the fight to band-aid the mess it has become. I think the mechanic in general is a poorly designed one. The fact that tackling it "incorrectly" leads to higher DPS gain should be a sure enough sign that it's been toxic from it's inception.

Also, as a fun fact to your LoS comment. You can actually Line of Sight the Doll's cleaves in A2S. Its quite fun actually.

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Originally Posted by Metterschlingel

I watched their kill videos and I'm a bit disappointed that it is possible to circumvent the royal pentacle mechanic. I like the creativity to do so, but it feels like T2 Enrage to completely ignore the rot passing mechanic in A4S, which is a heavy team coordination mechanic. I hope SE fixes the royal pentacle mechanic, thus one person can't trigger 2 of the orbs.
For A4S, Elysium is clearly the stronger team.

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This is like the most PC thing I heard all year, it's more pc than politics!

Every fight has loopholes with consequences. Like in T5, combining red with conflag reduces damage taken and soaking, but you either lose heal or dps. T2 enrage, you just wasting a lot of time just waiting. Your pointing fingers at people who spent precious hours clearing the hardest content in the game, just because you like to the ride the pc horse? Ehhh... maybe they should nerf you instead lol

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they never did that.

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That's why I gave a FFXI example and not a FFXIV one. Because back in FFXI, they most definitely did that. Anyone who was part of the whole AV debacle back at 75 cap knows alllllll about this.

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Originally Posted by xXRaineXx

Every fight has loopholes with consequences. Like in T5, combining red with conflag reduces damage taken and soaking, but you either lose heal or dps.

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I have a hard time seeing that as a loophole, given it resets the conflag timer. That implies it was specifically coded to handle that situation, meaning, SE thought players might shoot the fireballs into the conflag when they come at the same time and coded an appropriate behavior for it. If it didn't affect the conflag timer, then maybe you'd have a point :P

Well each group has a different way to approach a situation but big congrats to Elysium :)