"Base/Simple" stigma of Paladin and how we must deal with it/prepare for the future.

I've never seen people so emotionally upset over a video game in my life.
Also shield swipe shouldn't be a dps gain. It isn't intended to be, just because YOU think it should be doesn't mean that's a design flaw. That's arrogant. The intended design is what you have. Pally doesn't need to put out big numbers and it shouldn't. It was never intended to put out large amounts of dps. It's working as intended.

Actually, Shield Swipe was a DPS gain for a year and a half until Heavensward released.

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Originally Posted by Seshayn

Sek, I was gonna respond to your... answers, but then I started reading them and my brain cells started jumping off cliffs. There is just way too much bad and wrong in your post for me to address, when it's just going to fall on the deaf ears of someone without the capacity to comprehend anything that doesn't come with a gitgud hashtag. Enjoy your ignorance, I hear it's bliss.

However, one piece of advice would be to go pick up a dictionary and look up the word "fact" and the word "opinion" and see if you can tell the difference. You are welcome.

Good. Day.

P.S. It's so funny how I notice the join date of some of these.... "people" lol July. Such experience. Much knowledge. Wow. Also, you don't even have a tank. Get out of our forums you misinformed miscreant.

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Yeah so much easier to dodge things than to face them. But I know, saying "LOL YOUR WRONG LALALALA" is the easiest way.

Oh it would be cool if it was about opinions, but when you're desperatly trying to spam the forums to make your opinion a fact, you are quite the hypocrite.
And I've a lvl 50 WAR since ARR, that's not the point. Things didn't change regarding equipement when we came into 3.0. I've got experience tanking, and if you could have a real argument besides "LOL IMMA THE BEST PLD OF TEH GAME M8", we could discuss a little about tanking, in casual ou hardcore content.

But no, you just want to say "I'm right your wrong not gonna explain lol". Too bad. But if you change your mind, I'm always open to discussion.

And regarding your P.S, people don't join the forums when they start playing the game. I didn't really wanted to join the forums at first, but I wanted some advices on DRG in 3.0, so I made the effort. But yeah, looking at my join date is such a constructive plot, I understand.

Let me give you a piece of advice too : Stop talking to people with that superior tone of yours, and stop being deaf to anything people can say to you. There are flaws in the game, like the STR accessory being more optimal than VIT accessory. IT SHOULDN'T BE. But it is. And it needs to be corrected. Just accept you can be wrong.

I can be wrong with everything I've said before, and I accept it. But if you only want to answer like "I'M ALWAYS RIGHT AND THE BEST NOW GTFO", we can't go anywhere.

Now if you want we can talk about the advantages and disadvantages of STR&VIT accessory like two grown-ups.

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Originally Posted by Zaresin

They just need to get rid of the DPS factor for tanks. If tanks want to DPS then roll a damn DPS. I play pld when I tank. When I heal I honestly prefer pld tanks. They are more reliable and predictable.

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Tank's DPS is only extremely important when regarding progression content like Alex Savage. Because DPS can't physically put enough with their current gear at the time. In casual, it's only important for things to go fast, like Expert Roulette, or for PvP. But the problem with PLD here is that in progression it offer less reliable resistance and less DPS output, which need to be buffed so he can compete with WAR and DRK.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

Pally doesn't need to put out big numbers and it shouldn't. It was never intended to put out large amounts of dps. It's working as intended.

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The intent is stupid and contradictory to the raid meta. Which is what jobs are/shouldbe balanced around. Because they sure aren't tweaked just because of casual content.

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Originally Posted by Sekundessounet

Blah Blah Blah Factual opinions blah.

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Never said I was the best, said I was damn good at my role. I'm sure there are better players, there always are. The reason I won't pick through your post and respond is because I think you're an idiot. This is me, as a person, telling you that you are not worth my time or effort. I think you're pretty worthless. That's my opinion. You have not raised any valid or new point I have not already expressed my opinion on, all you sit and say is fact this and fact that. STR accessory being more optimal than VIT accessory is your opinion. That is just a cold hard fact. The only fact you have is that you have an opinion.

Also, I am aware of how join date works. Just find it funny that most of the people I think are idiots have such a recent join date. It's just a funny little coincidence I have noticed. The part where I mocked your experience was that you are shit talking in a Paladin thread with a level 31 Paladin, so... Shut up. I mean, you don't even have a single tank class past 54, and you come in here acting like you're gonna drop all this knowledge on people? /shoo

You see, that's the superior tone I'm talking about. "You're so shit i'm not even gonna BOTHER answering you, ANYTHING you say can't be valid when I don't approve it". My points are valid until you say anything unvaliding them. But yeah, say I'm worthless if you want, not gonna change anything. You say "all you sit and say is fact this and fact that", but your just like "opinion this, opinion that, and your opinion is shit cause i'm right tho". There is one fact : you being a childish out of sheer pride.

And i'm talking actually about tanking in general. And I got experience from 2.X and 60 tanks are sharing their experience regarding Savage and casual content. So yeah, I know the current state of the tanking world, thus allowing me to express my opinion and what I THINK are fact. But no, you're just like "IT'S OPINION BLAH BLAH AND YOU'RE WRONG YOU WORTHLESS IDIOT STFU". Besides being rude for nothing, it's just plugging your ears because you don't want to approve that you can be wrong and that people may discuss it.

After reading those kinds of discussions, it makes me really nervous of becoming 60.

I have some general questions:

1) Did anyone do the math/parsing on str gear vs Vit gear and if so where can i check the data for a lvl 60 tank?
2) How much "faster" we are talking about for a 4 and 8 party dungeon, for str vs vit gear in actual practice?

I understand the general argument for str gear, just want some hard numbers to better judge the benefit/drawbacks. To me it makes a difference if we discuss a 2% DPS increase on boss/trash from a str tank vs vit tank or if its in the range of 7-15%.

So as example if i lean towards vit gear and someone tells me to wear str gear for a 1-2min shorter dungeon run time, i couldn't care less. On the other hand if a slight DPS increase results in a better chance of passing some stupid dps check/mechanic than sure i put my preference aside for the greater good :)

VIT/STR for PLD in 4mans doesn't really matter much, it'll just speed up clears a bit. STR is also really only useful on bosses, since in large trash pulls you'll basically just be Flash spamming. That said, if you're doing small pulls then STR becomes a lot more valuable.

The reason you use STR gear in the first place is because you've reached a superfluous amount of HP, to the point where you can shred off a large chunk of it and not really feel any difference in terms of your survivability. Once you start getting gear @ 60, you'll start getting a better understanding of just how much HP you actually need, and converting all the excess amount into STR. For 4mans, for example, once you're 170-180 you can pretty safely use all STR on bosses or small trash pulls - you shouldn't have any issues and healer DPS shouldn't be affected.

The only time where STR vs VIT actually makes a real difference, however, is progression raiding. That's where those DPS checks come in, and every little bit that every role can squeeze out means a higher chance of clearing. There will come a point where it stops mattering as much and DPS can carry the actual... DPS responsibilities, allowing VIT tanks to complete the content, but early on you definitely want as much STR as you can muster without gimping yourself defensively.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

VIT/STR for PLD in 4mans doesn't really matter much, it'll just speed up clears a bit. STR is also really only useful on bosses, since in large trash pulls you'll basically just be Flash spamming. That said, if you're doing small pulls then STR becomes a lot more valuable.

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Not so sure about the flash spamming. STR will also help you keep hate. Running EXP roulette running full STR, I'll flash a mob maybe once or twice at the start and never have to do it again. Rotate through the mob hit them all with a DoT like Goring Blade and keep rotating through, rarely loose hate. If I do, its one maybe two hits on the one I lost and its back.

Can we please get back onto the subject? I feel like asking you guys since technically a moderator of the forum can do whatever they want to do with off topic posts.

Yep I'm sorry, gotta make a last post about this.

Like it was said before, I don't really play PLD. My experience with the job itself (and not tanking in general) it what was shared to me by my FC and friends. But I think if you want to make your job look less simple and with more depths (on these forums at least), maybe try to show how important is the CD rotation, the priority of your combos, your optimal DPS rotation and all of that (people did this in 2.x for DRG and it quite helped the job not falling into darkness I think) and continue showing the devs what need to be fixed.

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Originally Posted by Zaresin

They just need to get rid of the DPS factor for tanks. If tanks want to DPS then roll a damn DPS. I play pld when I tank. When I heal I honestly prefer pld tanks. They are more reliable and predictable.

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Forcing tanks to give up the dps side of their role would again require the classes to be rebuilt to make mitigating damage and holding aggro more challenging on it's own which just isn't going to happen. (as well as the dps classes being buffed).

I main DRK myself, but I have enormous respect for people that main PLD and play the job well for one simple reason: They are people that actually want to TANK and understand what that means. What we have instead, is a tanking meta that shames tanks for wanting to be tanks, and sucks the e-peens of those that are giving DPS jobs a run for their numbers whilst considering their ability to be a TANK an afterthought. The fact that half of Alex Savage sees tanks outside their tank stance, getting straight up carried by their healers, and told that THAT is optimal tank play, really is a testament to how backwards the design of tanks in this game has gotten to be.

While I take pride in the ability to be adaptable and have full fending, slaying and pentameld sets for my DRK, its really kind of ridiculous that the game is designed mechanically around tanks just being DPS jobs that can hold aggro, pop mitigation cooldowns, and get carried by healers. This is to say nothing of the "aggressive style" tanking (code for tanking outside of tank stance, focusing on dps, popping CDs when prompted by a tank buster and otherwise getting carried by healers) being popularized by the WAR job. And sadly, everyone just wants the other tanks to be WAR. If I wanted to play WAR I'd play WAR, but if i was playing WAR... why not just go all the way and re-roll as DPS?

But no other tank can be WAR. DRK cannot do optimal DPS outside of its tank stance because its hate combo is not optimal DPS or MP management, and PLD just doesn't have the raw damage to compete regardless. The fact that the rest of the tanking meta is having to structure itself around how DPS tanks and WAR play is really analogous to their role in the raid - "I'll do sick deeps, just give me aggro, give me all the heals, carry me." Its this "focus on me" and "play like me" mentality inherent in the design of the WAR job in relation to raid design in the game that is really shooting the other tanks in the foot, especially PLD, whose defensive utilities are barely if at all considered in raid composition, because the only utility that matters is the one that squeenix chose to give to WAR and to WAR alone, and that is DPS, which has forced the entire raiding metagame to change around it and basically cater to its needs and requirements, in particular forcing the other two tanks and even the healers, to play their jobs within considerable constraints because of it. What's worse is that by sheer virtue of the numbers that WAR can attain, its really giving players the subconscious impression that WARs are just better players, when they just have a job where the DPS is spoon fed to them through the mechanics.

And to be clear, I'm not attacking WAR mains or any players in general here, I'm pointing out design flaws in the games tank design in relation to its raid design. There is entirely too much emphasis on DPS to the point where no other utility matters. Every raid is going to have a WAR, every raid is going to have a SCH, and every raid is going to have a NIN/DRG because those are the top DPS of their respective job-type in and of themselves, and in raid DPS contribution. The entire system needs re-balancing, but more than anything I would change raid design before I buff/nerf any of the jobs. DPS being part of WARs utility is fine so long as you present an opportunity for the utilities of the other two tanks to shine as well.