Why are DPS so upset about tanks coming close to their DPS?

They should be upset because tanks getting within 25% of a DPS class breaks the established trinity. We are getting to the point that you can bring a group of Warriors and some healers and meet every DPS check in CURRENT CONTENT with current gear. That is a huge problem for the overall health of a game that relies so heavily on the trinity.

Consider the fallout of two other scenarios:

Heavensward gave every DD mitigation and hate generation abilities that perform within 25% of the tank classes. You could easily make up that 25% difference with gear, hit the minimum mitigation/HP requirements in fights and then just ditch tanks completely and bring 6 DDs and 2 healers to everything.

OR

They could have given all the DDs self heals and party heals that are withing 25% of the potency and HPS of the healer classes. Same deal, it would be easy enough to overgear to overcome that 25% difference and overcome the healing requirements of all fights and just completely ditch all the pure healers in the game.

That is the real situation that is coming down the line here very soon where fully functional party compositions are going to start appearing without a single DPS class in them as ilevels continue to climb. And then we have a completely broken game on our hands that is just going to power creep to ridiculous levels to try and fix because people are so fearful of nerfs to actually properly fix the game.

Simply put, if your functional role disparity can be overcome by currently obtainable gear in a trinity system, your game is broken.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kumori_Kumo

TBH I haven't seen this complaint from DPSes.
The only complaints about DPS focus on tanks I've heard comes from healers, who have to deal with inexperienced tanks forgetting to do Job 1 (LIVE) before they do Job 2.

---

It sure was fun leveling my AST up with Tanks who heard that "Tanks only wear STR accessories always".

I'll not forget the many dungeons i did with Tanks that wouldn't use their Tanking stances because "MAH DEEPS", nevermind that they have around the same HP as a DRG and are about as easy to keep alive.

And that one Warrior in Fractal on his self proclaimed virgin tank run on the final boss swapping to Deliverance with 2 stacks of Vulnerability and a huge 12k health pool.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind tanks who wear full STR, most of the time. The ones that do it right are the ones who properly use mitigation cooldowns, self heals and generally don't do dumb things.
Its the ones that heard about full STR Tanking being the only acceptable way to tank now and not even bother trying to use defensive abilities. When they inevitably drain my MP dry or die to a crit chain, it's me who gets blamed for not being a good enough Healer.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned, But on my Warrior main, i enjoy wearing full VIT for my EXDRs.
Nothing quite so satisfying as pulling a large pack with 25k~ hp and the Healer doesn't even need to leave Cleric Stance.

So uhh, On topic. I don't think I've ever seen any ingame complaints about Tank dps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ladon

-

---

So .. Do you have proof to back up your claims? Pretty sure groups aren't steamrolling Alex Savage with 6x WAR and 2 Healers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sylve

So .. Do you have proof to back up your claims? Pretty sure groups aren't steamrolling Alex Savage with 6x WAR and 2 Healers.

---

There is absolutely no reason they can't. The math doesn't lie and mathematically 6 geared Warriors will output enough raid DPS to beat Savage enrage timers.

I'm sure the only major thing stopping this from happening at this point is the logistics of getting 6 Warriors together that don't mind screwing the rest of their statics.

If you want to test it you can always just get a group who wants to try it out and do it after you've all already cleared A1S/A2S/whatever you want to try it on for the week.

A1S and A2S are the most feasible I think, A3S would be... highly questionable.

Indeed. You might hit the enrage on A3S...maybe not if increased survivability of the Warriors allows both healers to push out more damage but you only need what, 5800-6000 raid DPS to beat the A3S enrage? I mean you can get pretty creative here, like creating a provoke chain so that generally Warriors with berserk down are currently tanking which would up the overall damage average of every Warrior.


It's very likely going to a thing with a full i210 group though which is still a problem because there is no possible way any of these fights are going to be remotely possible without bringing tanks or healers.

Bad DPS mains complaining about Good Tank mains.
More at 11.

I am thrilled when a tank is putting out almost-DPS levels of damage. It means whatever I'm doing just became a hell of a lot easier/quicker in general.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ladon

They should be upset because tanks getting within 25% of a DPS class breaks the established trinity. We are getting to the point that you can bring a group of Warriors and some healers and meet every DPS check in CURRENT CONTENT with current gear. That is a huge problem for the overall health of a game that relies so heavily on the trinity.

Consider the fallout of two other scenarios:

Heavensward gave every DD mitigation and hate generation abilities that perform within 25% of the tank classes. You could easily make up that 25% difference with gear, hit the minimum mitigation/HP requirements in fights and then just ditch tanks completely and bring 6 DDs and 2 healers to everything.

OR

They could have given all the DDs self heals and party heals that are withing 25% of the potency and HPS of the healer classes. Same deal, it would be easy enough to overgear to overcome that 25% difference and overcome the healing requirements of all fights and just completely ditch all the pure healers in the game.

That is the real situation that is coming down the line here very soon where fully functional party compositions are going to start appearing without a single DPS class in them as ilevels continue to climb. And then we have a completely broken game on our hands that is just going to power creep to ridiculous levels to try and fix because people are so fearful of nerfs to actually properly fix the game.

Simply put, if your functional role disparity can be overcome by currently obtainable gear in a trinity system, your game is broken.

---

I, personally, think that you're blowing this pretty far out of proportion. Can 6 WARs and 2 Heals possibly down some harder content? Sure... there were 6/7 WAR, 2/1 Healer T13 clears for fun. Is anyone likely going to do it for anything more than giggles? I highly doubt it. Tanks being able to hit harder than a wet noodle will never lead to the full blown dropping of all DPS classes. Ever.

In the meta where DPS is king and quicker fights are always strived towards, there is never going to be a mass dropping of all DPS roles in favor of tanks that do less damage. On the other hand, if DPS were given the ability to tank almost as well as the tanks, there would indeed be a mass dropping of tanks in favor of filling those spots with DPS. The amount of damage you do trumps survivability when all you have to do is be just good enough to stay alive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by spelley

I am thrilled when a tank is putting out almost-DPS levels of damage. It means whatever I'm doing just became a hell of a lot easier/quicker in general.

---

This is a good way to think of it. I don't understand why DPS feel so incredibly threatened when it does benefit them as well. The only time tank damage is a hinderance to anybody is as the previous examples mentioned... when new tanks forget their first, and most important, job is to hold aggro and live through it and maxing DPS numbers is a secondary objective.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dement

In the meta where DPS is king and quicker fights are always strived towards, there is never going to be a mass dropping of all DPS roles in favor of tanks that do less damage. On the other hand, if DPS were given the ability to tank almost as well as the tanks, there would indeed be a mass dropping of tanks in favor of filling those spots with DPS. The amount of damage you do trumps survivability when all you have to do is be just good enough to stay alive.

---

You'll frequently find people who try the mass-dropping of tanks in DF anyway. I did a roulette a while back that landed me in Tam-tara, and this sproutling LNC was pulling everything ahead of me and told me to my face that tanks were filler classes in all content. At least two DPS jobs currently have methods to semi-viably tank in everything except cutting-edge raiding. Where was that post someone made about running EXDR with a scholar, three summoners and a potato-egi?

Because killing things as quickly as mathemagically possible is the gold-star standard in the meta as it stands, if it weren't for the fact that certain tankbusters and trash packs would chunk a DPS four times over in a single swing I doubt you'd see any tank slots in PF or static recruitment. As gear levels rise, a portion of the... let's call them "misinformed" masses will come to accept it as fact that tanks are "worthless". To say that such would become the new meta would be hyperbolic at best, but that doesn't change the fact that some people will actually believe it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dement

In the meta where DPS is king and quicker fights are always strived towards, there is never going to be a mass dropping of all DPS roles in favor of tanks that do less damage. On the other hand, if DPS were given the ability to tank almost as well as the tanks, there would indeed be a mass dropping of tanks in favor of filling those spots with DPS. The amount of damage you do trumps survivability when all you have to do is be just good enough to stay alive.

---

Ladon never suggested that dropping DPS from parties would become the new meta. She was saying that the mere fact that it is possible to completely ditch DPS Jobs and still win all but 2 encounters that are presently "current" is a sure sign that something is seriously wrong with the Trinity.

In a Trinity based game, every role should be necessary for every piece of party-based content. Clearly, this is not the case with FFXIV.

While this game does use the trinity system it is also using the Job system and the fights are tuned so that player can expand beyond the extremely limited trinity roles into their full job potential. This also makes teams more dynamic. The "strict role" idealism not only is a hindrance to your progression in this game, but also the game is intentionally designed to operate beyond the minimalist confines of strict roles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dante_V

While this game does use the trinity system it is also using the Job system and the fights are tuned so that player can expand beyond the extremely limited trinity roles into their full job potential. This also makes teams more dynamic. The "strict role" idealism not only is a hindrance to your progression in this game, but also the game is intentionally designed to operate beyond the minimalist confines of strict roles.

---

We're using a Job System... which is just another way to say "Character Class"... of which all Jobs are specifically assigned a Trinity Role. In fact, Jobs funnel people into their assigned roles even more than Classes do. Wherever did you get the idea that they somehow conflict?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Donjo

Ladon never suggested that dropping DPS from parties would become the new meta. She was saying that the mere fact that it is possible to completely ditch DPS Jobs and still win all but 2 encounters that are presently "current" is a sure sign that something is seriously wrong with the Trinity.

In a Trinity based game, every role should be necessary for every piece of party-based content. Clearly, this is not the case with FFXIV.

---

Every role is absolutely necessary for every piece of party-based content while that content is current. Ladon's posts talk about overgearing which is the only time that dropping DPS becomes feasible but still the question remains why drop the DPS?

If no one is dropping DPS in this new meta, then I don't really see what the problem is. The trinity still exists, tanks still tank, DPS still DPS, and healers still heal. The only difference is that tanks are able to output more damage as an OT role and maybe a MT role (once they overgear the content), however, that damage is still no where near the same level that an actual equally geared/skilled DPS is going to output.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ladon

That is the real situation that is coming down the line here very soon where fully functional party compositions are going to start appearing without a single DPS class in them as ilevels continue to climb. And then we have a completely broken game on our hands that is just going to power creep to ridiculous levels to try and fix because people are so fearful of nerfs to actually properly fix the game.

---

Also, I would say that dropping DPS from parties was definitely stated as becoming the new meta.

NOTE: didnt read last ten pages

There are 2 things that happen when a group over gears a fight:

1. You bring in 7 tanks and 1 healer for lulz (mostly done with statics and what not.)

2. You bring 1 tank 5 DPS and 1 healer. This is what happens most of the time.

a good DPS is still 400-500 DPS above a tank with equal gear and skill. This is in full offense.

now if we look at this from a percentage stand-point you will see that we are in fact not coming close to a DPS's numbers

For the sake of this comparison i will be using the top DPS job and the top Tank job.

For 2.55:
MNK- 600+ DPS
WAR- 450+ DPS

Percent difference: DPS did 33% more damage than the highest DPS tank.

3.05
DRG- ~1400 (thats being a little generous)
WAR- ~1100

DPS still do 27% more than a tank

This is with tanks getting more DPS capability and the fact that we are in the beginning of the expansion. When gear level and gets higher the gap will widen. I think that when we get to ilvl 220-230 we will be back to the point where DPS will be 33% better at DPS than a tank will be. remember this in a perfect scenario as soon as a tank has to enter tank stance its no longer a contest (not that it was one in the first place).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dement

Every role is absolutely necessary for every piece of party-based content while that content is current. Ladon's posts talk about overgearing which is the only time that dropping DPS becomes feasible but still the question remains why drop the DPS?

---

Except that it isn't. That's the point. Nearly all of our current content can be cleared not only without DPS, but alternately with fewer than the recommended number of Tanks and Healers.

Quote:

---

Also, I would say that dropping DPS from parties was definitely stated as becoming the new meta.

---

Just because it's not the meta doesn't mean it won't happen. What Ladon is saying is that it's going to happen.

I dunno, I can't remember the last MMO I played where the main tank and the main healer weren't the single back bone of the party. Meaning as long as those two were alive with resources, it didn't matter if your DPS is doing 0% or 1000% of the tank's DPS. That is the very reason MMO devs created DPS checks, which if you look into the MMO history, are "relatively new".

After a fight is overgeared, it's not considered "relevant" in my book and doing that fight in any setup for lols is just that, "lols". I don't care what class is dropped at that point.

P.S. Twintania was done with auto-attacks only and the fight lasted 5 minutes. It was a very good laugh even. (Top DPS was the SwO PLD of course lol).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ladon

That is the real situation that is coming down the line here very soon where fully functional party compositions are going to start appearing without a single DPS class in them as ilevels continue to climb.

---

I don't know, you hear this doomsday claim all the time in these games, and they never come true.

One issue that nobody seems to want to talk about is 8 man bosses that only need 1 tank. What is that 2nd tank supposed to do?

That damage has to exist. And a lot of these numbers you're seeing is from the offtank, the one who doesn't have to worry about threat, but he's constantly ready to take over tanking if something goes wrong, with obviously lowered survivability, he's only a temporary fix until the rez debuff wears off the main tank. And in an equally skilled and geared group, he's not going to be topping damage.

As a healer I have come to loath tanks that want to emulate DPS because all this new system has caused is bring in the number chasers. They do not do their primary job which is keep the mobs off the rest of the team or their health percentage drops so fast that one lag spike and we have a wipe. My personal opinion is remove the DPS factor from tanks and change how enmity works. This will in all likelihood become a bigger problem the longer it persists and the harder it will be to change it.

If they're one lag spike away from you wiping, that's not always a tank problem. I know for warrior, Defiance doesn't affect how much damage I take, and with deliverance, it's like my HP is always at 75% if I was in Defiance. Defiance has a higher health pool, but it also buffs the healing I take. Inner Beast lowers my damage taken by 20% for a little bit, but Storm's path heals me for 50% of its damage, while hitting harder in Deliverance. BOTH are effictively extra HP to me in the fight.

If I'm geared right, and know that I'm safe in Deliverance doing damage, if I'm that close to dying, the problem is my healer. Group after group, I'm watching myslef drop to -20% in my tank stance, full vit set, and not a single heal is being cast on me. My job is to keep threat, but we also have to kill things before my healer runs out of MP and I die, we also have adds I have to help kill, and other things like that. Tank DPS is a needed thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rockint

If they're one lag spike away from you wiping, that's not always a tank problem. I know for warrior, Defiance doesn't affect how much damage I take, and with deliverance, it's like my HP is always at 75% if I was in Defiance. Defiance has a higher health pool, but it also buffs the healing I take. Inner Beast lowers my damage taken by 20% for a little bit, but Storm's path heals me for 50% of its damage, while hitting harder in Deliverance. BOTH are effictively extra HP to me in the fight.

If I'm geared right, and know that I'm safe in Deliverance doing damage, if I'm that close to dying, the problem is my healer. Group after group, I'm watching myslef drop to -20% in my tank stance, full vit set, and not a single heal is being cast on me. My job is to keep threat, but we also have to kill things before my healer runs out of MP and I die, we also have adds I have to help kill, and other things like that. Tank DPS is a needed thing.

---

The problem healers run into is when you have tanks focusing on DPS and are usually in their DPS stance, the only thing that is generating enmity is their ability to DPS and their enmity combo skills. When DPS are geared, you will not hold aggro. That is the reality of it. Now knowing when to switch and to switch back shows the true players from all the new ones, but unfortunately for the Tank community, the bad tanks are becoming more prevalent showing the design flaws that of the class. Good tanks can overcome them and use them to their advantage, but those players are few and far between as this is a game for casuals. And casual does not equal good. (Hopefully that made sense, just got done climbing two towers and a little tired and still recovering from the stomach bug).

To be honest my opinion is remove DPS from tanks and look into buffing damage of the DPS to compensate. I tend to be an old school gamer, if you wanted to DPS then you played DPS. If you wanted to tank or heal, you played tank or heal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zaresin

To be honest my opinion is remove DPS from tanks and look into buffing damage of the DPS to compensate. I tend to be an old school gamer, if you wanted to DPS then you played DPS. If you wanted to tank or heal, you played tank or heal.

---

Hey, guess what? That's boring.

As a monk I learned to live with the fact that pretty much everyone else can get bigger numbers than I can. If I am upset about a tank coming close to my dps numbers it is because I am sucking hardcore and need to step it up. Now if I get replaced by a tank as dps you will see me scream because at that point the game is broken.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zaresin

To be honest my opinion is remove DPS from tanks and look into buffing damage of the DPS to compensate.

---

15 years ago when leveling was more grinding mobs than questing, I'd agree. Today, though, MMOs are just too different. Tanks have to be able to do quests, bosses have become way more complex. And there's still ALWAYS that issue of if you only need 1 tank on a boss, what do the other tanks do?

Maybe we should just stop babysitting bad tanks. Now, if you're in the minimum gear to do a dungeon and you're geared right, and you're actually trying, but there's issues because you're behind the gear curve, then keep your tank alive (ilevel 145 is a huge challenege to tank for ilevel 190+, but fun). But if a tank is in their DPS stance, not using any cooldowns to stay alive, and they're losing every mob (because of not being in their tanking stance for threat, not because of a gear gap) let the tank die, or kick the tank, whatever.