Lets Talk About UNDERCUTTERS!!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nikkori

.

---

I hear you and I was like you a year or so ago. I was making the brand new off hand tools that took the ehcatl sealant. expensive to make and about 2 million profit on the rare occasion one sold. I got sick and tired of being undercut and I dropped 500k of my sale. all of a suddedn I couldn't keep up with the demand. I couldn't buy sealant cheap enough half the time. but when I did these sold 2 3 or even 4 times daily up from once or twice a week. eventually I dropped my prices lower and lower making only 300 to 400k profit. others dropped their prices too and whilst I still got undercut and missed sales things were selling well enough that I didn't mind. I look at the ah today and see something selling slowly. you got to ask yourself is it too expensive or do ppl not want it. its a 50/50 guess but half the time its just that is too expensive

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sirDarts

If someone is selling for a very low price, they usually don't have too much of the item and just want to get rid of it = they don't influence the market in the long run. AND if they are actually selling for lower than the cost of materials, just buy them out and sell for actual amounts, you will save gil and time, they will sell what they want to sell, everyone is happy.

---

doesn't work for servers like sargantanas where you have a huge population. there's simply too many people who are willing to tank the price - they simply overwhelm via numbers, gradually eroding the price in spite of anything you may attempt to combat it.


note this isn't for things like thavanian bustiers going down to sane prices people are willing to buy, but basically every non-ephemeral stone, every item that can be gathered or crafted without super time gated mats getting crashed to absymal prices. even clusters can get driven down to incredibly low prices if it's a particularly bad day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

Isn't a regulated free market contradicting? How can you have a regulated free market? Wouldn't that make it a controlled market?

---

Yes.

They're not arguing for a "regulated" market. They're basically advocating price fixing and something more akin to a "Centrally Planned" market structure that would discourage or prohibit significant influence by the buyers and sellers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nyttyn

doesn't work for servers like sargantanas where you have a huge population. there's simply too many people who are willing to tank the price - they simply overwhelm via numbers, gradually eroding the price in spite of anything you may attempt to combat it.


note this isn't for things like thavanian bustiers going down to sane prices people are willing to buy, but basically every non-ephemeral stone, every item that can be gathered or crafted without super time gated mats getting crashed to absymal prices. even clusters can get driven down to incredibly low prices if it's a particularly bad day.

---

If the price is tanked so low that it's not worth selling, don't bother. Easy as that. Craft or gather something that IS worth selling.
If the supply is that high, the demand has little to no way to be up there as well, so adding more to it is just not worth it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Destomius

If the supply really is limited and you get undercut by that much, you could always buy out the undercutter's items then resell them for your own price.

---

/endthread

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

Isn't a regulated free market contradicting? How can you have a regulated free market? Wouldn't that make it a controlled market?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sirDarts

There is no actual life-threatening result to be had from an unregulated in-game market. Thus there is ZERO reason for regulation, just let the natural flow of supply and demand do its job.

---

Regulation already exists in the market in the forms of subsidies (the paltry sums of gill you get for completing quests and the like), npc merchants (should be driving prices down for certain items also available on the market), and also undercutters (bringing down the price of over inflated goods). Un-regulated free markets never turn out well. Ex: history (Latin America in the 70's, Russia in the 90's, America in 2007). Lucky for us this market isnt as complicated as RL. I'm not necessarily saying SE needs to do anything, but if your mad that the market is dropping underneath you it might be time to adjust your prices to meet the market. Regulate yourself. %1500 profit is unsustainable

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billeffingmurray

Regulation already exists in the market in the forms of subsidies (the paltry sums of gill you get for completing quests and the like), npc merchants (should be driving prices down for certain items also available on the market), and also undercutters (bringing down the price of over inflated goods). Un-regulated free markets never turn out well. Ex: history (Latin America in the 70's, Russia in the 90's, America in 2007). Lucky for us this market isnt as complicated as RL. I'm not necessarily saying SE needs to do anything, but if your mad that the market is dropping underneath you it might be time to adjust your prices to meet the market. Regulate yourself. %1500 profit is unsustainable

---

As you said, it regulates itself.
There is no need for any outside regulation. If it grows too high, nobody will buy it, and they will have to go down. If it's too cheap people will stop getting profit and they will give up on the low side.

There will always be extremes on both sides, but I see little reason to deny that possibility by any form of regulation.

1 thing to fix this massive undercutting nonsense.

Make it so you can never sell it on the marketboard for less than what you'd vender it for. This stops certain high level things (such as Clear Demimateria III) for being sold for less than their actual worth...like how Guild Wars 2 does it. There, we've fixed a lot of the nonsense for things, such as Clear Demimateria III being sold for less than 5K gold (it can be vender'd for that much people).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

1 thing to fix this massive undercutting nonsense.

Make it so you can never sell it on the marketboard for less than what you'd vender it for. This stops certain high level things (such as Clear Demimateria III) for being sold for less than their actual worth...like how Guild Wars 2 does it. There, we've fixed a lot of the nonsense for things, such as Clear Demimateria III being sold for less than 5K gold (it can be vender'd for that much people).

---

When I see things like that listed on the board for less than their vendor price I don't let it bother me; I simply buy them up and vendor them. It's a small profit to be sure, but it's a profit nonetheless. I won't say no to free gil. ^^

@OP - the alternative to undercutting is price gouging/price fixing. It's fine how it is.

It suddenly got really bad on Mateus in the low level materia market... people undercutting and posting dozens of materia for less than vendor price when they had individually been selling for 450-1000 gil per previously. It really is one of the dumbest parts of MMO economies. @_@

If I keep getting undercut by 1 gil then I'm more likely to go postal and just stick a load up at roughly gathering cost. Since I farm all my own mats then I don't really need to worry too much. Childish and cutting off my nose, maybe, but satisfying. I find constant undercutting by 1 gil more frustrating.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dsync

If I keep getting undercut by 1 gil then I'm more likely to go postal and just stick a load up at roughly gathering cost. Since I farm all my own mats then I don't really need to worry too much. Childish and cutting off my nose, maybe, but satisfying. I find constant undercutting by 1 gil more frustrating.

---

*raises hand* Guilty of doing it :3

I always saw undercutting by 1 gil to be completely stupid. As a buyer, if I see a listed item being 1 gil cheaper than the next guy, I am not going to buy it if it's not in my current city because of the taxes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Destomius

If the supply really is limited and you get undercut by that much, you could always buy out the undercutter's items then resell them for your own price.

---

That's what I do!

If people can place an item for thousands then I'll undercut

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

I always saw undercutting by 1 gil to be completely stupid. As a buyer, if I see a listed item being 1 gil cheaper than the next guy, I am not going to buy it if it's not in my current city because of the taxes.

---

Same. Undercutting by a gil is a jerk move, and I always avoid buying items from people who do so, and refrain from undercutting by 1 or a few gil myself too.

As long as the undercutting doesnt make an item absolutely worthless and/or less than the vendor price, I am perfectly fine with it. As someone who doesnt craft a lot, I definitely appreciate when things are not overpriced to levels where nobody will/can buy them.

This is just how markets work. If someone is willing to undercut you then you just have to deal with it. If that is the price they are willing to sell their item for then you either need to adjust your price to compensate or wait for theirs to get bought up.

If the demand was high enough to warrant the current prices then people wouldn't be forced to bring prices down to sell theirs.

because a piece of white gear is really worth 200,000gil?

I dont think so.

Welcome to a free market. as items are in larger supply, and demand is lower than the rate at which new products are supplied... the price will drop. People entering the market later will see to sell their products at a price less than those before them. It's simple economics, it happens in every game. It's also a logical progression. If you want to charge huge prices for your crafted/dropped items by all means list them at that. they may sell eventually. Then again they might not if the supply stays steady at lower prices.

As it goes.. pretty much everything you can make, you sell at a 100% profit. this game doesn't really have currency sinks for crafting. So I really dont see what the fuss is about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Havenae

because a piece of white gear is really worth 200,000gil?

---

It's pretty funny when I am leveling an alt and I look on the market board for some white gear and stuff at level 25 is selling for 50k. Then I head over to the grand company vendor instead.

I've never tried crafting before, but if crafting is really that difficult that people feel like 50-200k is an adequate compensation for their work then I think the game probably needs some major reworking on the crafting system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zari

As long as the undercutting doesnt make an item absolutely worthless and/or less than the vendor price, I am perfectly fine with it. As someone who doesnt craft a lot, I definitely appreciate when things are not overpriced to levels where nobody will/can buy them.

---

If it's under the vendor price, just buy it and vendor it, free gil is free I'd say.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sirDarts

If it's under the vendor price, just buy it and vendor it, free gil is free I'd say.

---

I think he means it is on the market board for less than you can buy it from a vendor, not sell it to a vendor.

In which case my question is why the hell do people put up items bought from a vendor onto the market board and sell them at higher prices? Or why would anyone buy it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

1 thing to fix this massive undercutting nonsense.

Make it so you can never sell it on the marketboard for less than what you'd vender it for. This stops certain high level things (such as Clear Demimateria III) for being sold for less than their actual worth...like how Guild Wars 2 does it. There, we've fixed a lot of the nonsense for things, such as Clear Demimateria III being sold for less than 5K gold (it can be vender'd for that much people).

---

Agreed. It should've been like this from jump, especially when Yoshi-P is constantly discussing his concern over the amount of data stress on the servers and this would certainly help alleviate a little of that you'd think. Too many items listed on the MB for 1 gil that should've just been vendored and who knows, if these weren't taking up precious data space maybe everyone could have a free 3rd retainer or something! (I know, I know... wishful thinking with that!!!)

Crafters really like their system (and there are very few gil sinks in this game anyways). There is noting worng with undercutting, the game runs on a free market and people can sell at whatever price they want. As someone already said the taxes on different city are much higher than one gil, so if the buyer is informed they might not even buy the 1 gil undercut item.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thandronen

Agreed. It should've been like this from jump, especially when Yoshi-P is constantly discussing his concern over the amount of data stress on the servers and this would certainly help alleviate a little of that you'd think. Too many items listed on the MB for 1 gil that should've just been vendored and who knows, if these weren't taking up precious data space maybe everyone could have a free 3rd retainer or something! (I know, I know... wishful thinking with that!!!)

---

I put things on the marketboard for 1 gil on purpose because I feel like it would be worth more to someone else to use for crafting for basically free than for me to vendor it or throw it away. I so often have to clear out all my bags full of nonsense and instead of throwing it away I assumed I was being a good person by giving it away in a convenient manner.

Yet somehow I'm actually upsetting people? People don't want free crafting materials or whatever?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaedan

Same. Undercutting by a gil is a jerk move, and I always avoid buying items from people who do so, and refrain from undercutting by 1 or a few gil myself too.

---

I undercut by 1gil only so that my entry is the first one on the list. Technically the cheapest, but depending on the city the buyer happens to be in ... ! gil undercuts are fine. Yours will still sell to someone who dodges the tax, and even if mine sells before yours, you dont have to adjust to match me because yours is automatically the lowest on the market.

Its funny that undercutting wars happen because "i want mine to sell FIRST!" So they list and relist and relist and relist until you hit 1 gil and suddenly it has no value.
if you get undercut by a vast amount, Leave it alone. Eventually someone will buy it.

After reading all these comments I think I may go out and farm several stacks of dragon hides and start listing 20 hides at 100 gil less than the going price. Then list another 20 hides at 100 gil less than before and keep going till the price is at 500 gil. Then I'll go out and farm other hides and do the same. The prices for all this stuff is getting out of hand. I don't care about gil there is nothing in this game worth 100k+ except buying a house. The way SE handles crafting and gathering in this game is unbelievable especially the HW crafting system. I mean seriously why would SE change the common drops (looking at HW) to an uncommon drop rate. It makes no since at all.

All in all get over yourselves its just a game. You guys act like this pays your bills....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IzzyData

I think he means it is on the market board for less than you can buy it from a vendor, not sell it to a vendor.

In which case my question is why the hell do people put up items bought from a vendor onto the market board and sell them at higher prices? Or why would anyone buy it?

---

Because the lazy or ignorant are the true examples of "A fool and his money are soon parted", I bought quite a few tools from the vendors for 20k and resold for 60k and they were gone in a flash.

Supply and demand.
It's a good thing that this happens as it helps to prevent outrageous inflation.

I love these kinds of threads. Someone is upset because they can't control what another players does, and so they insist on adding a layer of control they believe will benefit, or deemed fair by, them.

If the market stops being free, then let's have the players with loads of gil pay higher taxes. :^)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sylve

I undercut by 1gil only so that my entry is the first one on the list. Technically the cheapest, but depending on the city the buyer happens to be in ... ! gil undercuts are fine. Yours will still sell to someone who dodges the tax, and even if mine sells before yours, you dont have to adjust to match me because yours is automatically the lowest on the market.

Its funny that undercutting wars happen because "i want mine to sell FIRST!" So they list and relist and relist and relist until you hit 1 gil and suddenly it has no value.
if you get undercut by a vast amount, Leave it alone. Eventually someone will buy it.

---

What you are suggesting is basically price fixing and destroys the concept of a free market. Just deal with it, people can do whatever they want.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IzzyData

What you are suggesting is basically price fixing and destroys the concept of a free market. Just deal with it, people can do whatever they want.

---

Inert value is part of free market, and so is not changing price, free market meaning do what you want. You could crash the market if you bought up the market and vastly undersold (or oversold) product that has high demand. Capitalism works, and in time will even rebound form such a crash. There is a reason India moved to capitalism and the UK is going back to capitalism (not to mention USA).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veilqa

I would also like to say that when the prices have smaller gaps, everyone makes money. I put up a vanya coat i bought for 50k. relisted it for 150k. About a week later, someone else puts one up underneath it for 90k gil. Why? Why not 149,999 or a few gil lower. Why undercut yourself so harshley? Guess what, theyre 90k coat? Its still for sale. Retarded if you ask me.

---

Then both your prices are not low enough for the current market. What is wrong with trying to get your item to sell at all?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyrinn

You undercut me, I crash the market. You can price match or you can get out. Deal with it.

---

If you want to spend a vast amount of gil to do that have fun. Undercutting is fine, and fair, do not see your great offense to it. I also forgot time if you wanted to crash lets say Dragon skins oyu would have to make sure to constantly buy out until only your underpriced items are on the list. I think the easiest thing, with enough money, would be to crash the ilvl 180 craft gear (if there is any lol).

What I find funny is people putting up finished items for less then the mats sell for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lexia

What I find funny is people putting up finished items for less then the mats sell for.

---

Isn't that normal since they are forced to make things to level up their job? It's always going to be a net loss since they have to make things people likely won't want or cost more than is worth it for most levels.

I think this issue is generated out of pure ignorance of how a market board/auction house actually works. If prices are remotely close even by a few gil, if the potential buyer wants the item enough, they will pay what it costs. For people to drive down prices with no basis whatsoever except a quick sale, then that is in its purist form, complete stupidity. Had many discussions about this with an FC member and frankly the "severe" undercutters must be suffering from some I.Q. deficiencies.

I would also like to say that when the prices have smaller gaps, everyone makes money. I put up a vanya coat i bought for 50k. relisted it for 150k. About a week later, someone else puts one up underneath it for 90k gil. Why? Why not 149,999 or a few gil lower. Why undercut yourself so harshley? Guess what, theyre 90k coat? Its still for sale. Retarded if you ask me.

You undercut me, I crash the market. You can price match or you can get out. Deal with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyrinn

You undercut me, I crash the market. You can price match or you can get out. Deal with it.

---

Ahahaha. Ok. You do that. Unless you have infinite gil that is only a temporary change and if you drop all your own prices enough all you are doing is throwing away gil out of spite. Then the next day it will be back to normal.

Imagine this situation in real life and realize how absurd of a notion that is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IzzyData

Ahahaha. Ok. You do that. Unless you have infinite gil that is only a temporary change and if you drop all your own prices enough all you are doing is throwing away gil out of spite. Then the next day it will be back to normal.

Imagine this situation in real life and realize how absurd of a notion that is.

---

In real life massproducing is a common thing. In a game, it is not. It is far easier to control supply in a game.

Can we talk about the obnoxious tools who want you to price the items you sell to their liking? Who the hell do they think they are? When my inventory space gets tight and it is more often than not, and both my retainers have 20 items up for sale, I will sell stuff WELL BELOW MARKET value, too bad for you. Buy it and resell if it wads your knickers. If I want to buy something and I need gil fast...guess what, I price it to sell fast. I am so so sorry that the market drops for you a little bit call the waaaambulance.