Parry is useless. Can we change it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ceodore

First of all, you're assuming that there is no minimum Parry Rate. However, by Nekt's own math, there is a minimum Parry Rate that comes stock of almost 2.5%. According to his math, 102 parry = about .887% parry. If you then subtract all his parry at the same rate, or rate being x=.887/102, you actually come to a base of about 2.5% parry rate even if your Parry is 0. So, assuming a rate of 100 parry = .873% increase in parry rate, you actually come to 5% parry rate at 312 Parry, not 573. At 573 parry, you would have a parry rate of 7.5% about

---

Except the example given wasn't really "you'd have this much parry rate at this much Parry", it was "you'd have this much more parry rate than a set without a single Parry point on it".

Since the base parry rate is, AFAIK, the same for every tank at the same level, we can really only compare the parry rates from whatever we get /above and beyond/ the base parry rate, no? =)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

So 500 parry is not even 1% damage reduction...

No, determination and critical rate actually can raise your stats significantly.

If 600ish parry was 10% damage reduction (calculated) I would agree with you. However It is not. It does not equal the other stats at all!

To even be close to the other stats, parry would have to be "TEN" times better then it is now.


I feel like 600 Critical Hit Rate is like 15-17% Critical Chance. Which is significant.

((I have no numbers to prove that, however that is what it feels like.))

---

Yes, currently, 500 parry isn't even 1% damage mitigation. But this isn't just about Parry itself, it's also about the different sets of trinkets in the game as well as the availability of certain stats on those trinkets. If you really need the HP pool from your VIT trinkets you'll see a lot of parry and little of much else. I'm not saying that it needs to be on par with the other secondary stats as far as power, as that would make the necessity to be in VIT trinkets far greater than the capabilities of your STR trinkets if the mitigation was equivalent to the damage increase from STR trinket secondary stats. That doesn't mean that there shouldn't be an increase to the capabilities of Parry, it just means that the increase needs to be weighed against the reasons for using the VIT set. You're looking at just the flat capabilities, I'm looking at the applications in the game. You want Parry to be equivalent to Determination, or Skill Speed, or Critical Hit Rate, but the fact is, if it was, there would be no reasons for using the STR sets at all, and it would literally pigeon hole tanks into only using Parry if the benefit was on par with those other secondary stats. So a smaller and more humble increase is the way to go instead of a massive overhaul to make the secondary something of a requirement. My suggestion still stands, increase both rate and damage mitigation.

Think about the reasons for using VIT trinkets or STR trinkets. VIT trinkets are generally for fights with heavy damage, where you're having to heal up big tank busters. So you're sinking in VIT to survive. The necessity for your big HP pool isn't because of mitigation, or because of proc chances, it's because you need the big HP to survive the big hits. But if we made Parry some big mitigation secondary that equals like 10% more mitigation per 100 parry, you'd never use your STR set because that would result in a massive loss of mitigation. Now look at the fights where it's better to use your STR sets. You're comfortable with the fight. You're not expecting any kind of massive spike in damage or a tank cruncth. This is generally dungeon fights with more casual type bosses with fewer mechanics. If parry was some massive mitigation, you wouldn't fathom dropping out of your VIT trinkets for these fights, because you'd instead be able to just laugh off every hit and healing would be an after thought. Instead, a small increase to parry's mitigation is better here too, as in these more casual fights, you're more willing to drop into STR trinkets and you won't see a gigantic loss in mitigation at the expense of an increase in damage. Parry doesn't build its necessity from its mitigation, it has its necessity because it's in your VIT trinkets, which are necessary for the massive hitting tank crunches. So a smaller benefit keeps the balance between Parry and the other secondary stats because the big benefit from these trinkets is due to the VIT.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Noxifer

Except the example given wasn't really "you'd have this much parry rate at this much Parry", it was "you'd have this much more parry rate than a set without a single Parry point on it".

Since the base parry rate is, AFAIK, the same for every tank at the same level, we can really only compare the parry rates from whatever we get /above and beyond/ the base parry rate, no? =)

---

Very true. I am not sure what the base amount of parry is without any gear on myself. Perhaps you might test this? I'm at work ATM, so I'm unable to. Maybe it is just 5%, can't be sure. But that still doesn't change much about my thoughts on Parry. It doesn't need some massive overhaul, as it shouldn't be a necessary stat for mitigation. It's tied so heavily to your VIT trinkets already, that its necessity comes from when VIT is necessary anyways. So still, a small increase over a large one is better because it still retains the balance between the STR and the VIT trinkets without breaking the status quo of either. STR would still be better for fights where you know the tactics and the big HP isn't necessary, and VIT would still be better for fights where you're expecting tank crunches or you're new to the fight. Making any big changes to Parry that buffs it dramatically would off set this balance and make VIT the necessary trinket for all situations and thus make tanks pigeon hole into VIT on all fights over Strength.

The point I am making here is that the rate of mitigation is not what is entirely important here. It's the necessity of the trinkets that use these stats when weighed against the situations that warrant their use. IF parry was some massive defensive stat that increased total overall mitigation by 10% per 100, you would never drop from VIT because that would be a permanent 10 or 20% mitigation you would lose if you did. STR trinkets would no longer be the trinket of choice on any fight anymore because of such a loss.

Accessories aren't even the concern (though there are other threads for that. It's that parry tacked onto leftside gear is virtually worthless while other jobs get useful stats. We get a 5th stat that doesn't really do anything for us watering down our gear even more for no reason. Parry was 'bad' in 2.x. with the growth rate nerf in 3.0 combined wth the loss of str affecting the actual parry anount, this stat has fallen through the floor into "you could just delete the stat in its entirety because it's THAT bad".

I don't personally think that it should become an offensive stat, but as it is the only defensive stat we can choose to wear vs 4 offensive stat options. It should do SOMETHING that war rents us wearing it instead of just being mad its taking up gear stat space every time we see it.

Their is a problem when stacking every piece of defensive gesr you could ever equip is under 1% mitigation. If I build a defensive set and sacrifice offense for it, I should get something for my trouble. Less than 1% mitigation, only on phy attacks, only from the front, and it's rng based in exchange for saccing all offense (this set would be entirely parry/acc) is the most mind bogglingly poor trade off I've seen in any game I've played.

There's no reason the only defensive stat should he so crap that most high level tanks would rather delete it from the game than have to wear it.

Indeed: there's barely any full reason to stack up on defenses when the pay off is very poor, especially on classes that benefit more on strength like Warriors.

Infact I wanted to reply at this answer about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Noxifer

Yes, Warriors have higher HP and increased heal rate from incoming heals. Guess what? Our tank stance doesn't provide a flat 20% damage reduction. The increase in HP is instead of that. So that we take the same effective damage from a hit as a Paladin or Dark Knight.

---

The main reason for that boost, in my opinion, it's not entirely for that reason but instead it's for giving us the chance on boosting ourselves on strength instead of vitality AND parry: unlike the other tanks Warriors benefit a whole lot more on Strength (even more before, since they had an increase parry block% because of it), so instead of stacking on vitality or parry we can simply go strength without losing too much defenses: the hp boost will make us on par on PLD or DRK levels of HP, if not more, and we can also dps encounters without the need of switching accessories constantly (unless you picked crafted accessories, and I wasn't "that" rich to afford those). The defense is not as high but our healing boosts and our useful mitigations, especially raw intuition which is nothing special but it's still 100% parry for 20 second, gives us a chance to focus on other things but defensive stats.

And in the end Parry is not a good pay off now when we get cases like the warriors that benefit a lot more on pure strength and I'm sure other tanks will do the same (heck I've seen paladins doing the same): the parry is so weak and so rare that you'd rather want to get the full damage anyways, since that's always certain.

I'm sure as heck that I won't go vitality any sooner, unless I need that extra hp boost.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Voltyblast

The main reason for that boost, in my opinion, it's not entirely for that reason but instead it's for giving us the chance on boosting ourselves on strength instead of vitality AND parry: unlike the other tanks Warriors benefit a whole lot more on Strength (even more before, since they had an increase parry block% because of it), so instead of stacking on vitality or parry we can simply go strength without losing too much defenses: the hp boost will make us on par on PLD or DRK levels of HP, if not more,

---

....You... main Warrior... and don't understand how our tank stance works?

If we, in tank stance, have the same HP as a Paladin or Dark Knight in tank stance... we are a lot more squishy than them. Because we take more damage than them.

PLD/DRK: -20% damage from incoming hits.
WAR: +25% HP

Base HP: 4000.
PLD/DRK: 4000
WAR: 5000

Incoming damage: 1000
PLD/DRK: 800
WAR: 1000

Without incoming heals, self heals or HP regen ticks, it takes all three tanks 5 hits to reach 0 HP.

If the base HP for the warrior is lower, so that it's around 4k in tank stance, it suddenly only takes 4 hits for the warrior to die instead of 5.


Of course, this doesn't mean a Warrior can't go STR-focused, same as it doesn't mean a Paladin or Dark Knight can't go STR-focused. And we have a couple of self-heals that benefit from the extra STR (just the same as Paladins and Dark Knights do, as I understand it). With good use of defensive cooldowns and self-heals, and good healers, it's a perfectly viable route.
But please don't say that the Warrior's extra HP is to encourage us to focus on STR.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Noxifer

But please don't say that the Warrior's extra HP is to encourage us to focus on STR.

---

Actually it means they benefit more from Vitality stat, encouraging them to go Vitality!

Vitality is 25% better to a warrior.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Actually it means they benefit more from Vitality stat, encouraging them to go Vitality!

Vitality is 25% better to a warrior.

---

I hope that was a sarcastic comment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Actually it means they benefit more from Vitality stat, encouraging them to go Vitality!

Vitality is 25% better to a warrior.

---

And on that line, Def/Mdef is 20% better for PLD/DRK, therefore WAR doesn't need as good armour as PLD/DRK =D

Thank god we have rational people like Ceodore here we do not need parry reflecting dmg way too much imbalance. What we need is something to help us mitigate more like hmm I dunno how much +armor you have contributes to it or something like that. So that way you're always actively reaching that threshold but honestly i'm out of ideas what SE should do about parry it's an icky stat that tanks really don't want, and if you do manage to get alot it's still a flate rate.

Maybe its not as bad but I feel like parry is like 2.0 spell speed on smn. Just imo but its quite annoying we have to work around our gear to avoid this plagued stat, fitting in enough accuracy while avoiding parry at all costs, I believe this was only achievable with a relic melded with accuracy which worked in my favour but not some. Kinda wish they could just delete the stat ;-;