Any other Black Mages annoyed?

I know the drgs you play with, I'd beat them.

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Originally Posted by Xisin

I know the drgs you play with, I'd beat them.

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So you do 1250 on a dummy ?

Then you obviously overlooked the caveat of "with foe"

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Originally Posted by Xisin

Then you obviously overlooked the caveat of "with foe"

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So you have trouble beating Monks with Foes but not DRGs ?

in a real fight mnks seem to have an edge, our monk is really good, best I've seen. Our drgs are really good as well and that is a toss up. -Also are you counting litany into your own dps? crit fire 4 w/ litany is something else.

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Originally Posted by Xisin

in a real fight mnks seem to have an edge, our monk is really good, best I've seen. Our drgs are really good as well and that is a toss up. -Also are you counting litany into your own dps? crit fire 4 w/ litany is something else.

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Of course I am counting Litany, it's part of the DRGs rotation. That's like discounting Ley Lines when parsing with BLM.

Also, in both the current end game fights, both casters should come out on top provided there's foes.

Bismark: Summoner
Ravana: Black Mage

Ya, i beat the drgs, but the monk wins out more often than i do on those. I'd be curious as how our groups compare, although I do know of something already ~

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Originally Posted by Xisin

Ya, i beat the drgs, but the monk wins out more often than i do on those. I'd be curious as how our groups compare, although I do know of something already ~

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And that is ?

Highest I've seen on Ravana for MNK is close to 800, no NIN, no MCH. BLM can consistently do 950-1,000 in those same clear times, but with a BRD. Would probably be very close with no BRD, but with a MCH.

I personally think MNK is in a way worse spot (brought for DK only in an optimal setting) than casters but I'm no MNK main.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Highest I've seen on Ravana for MNK is close to 800, no NIN, no MCH. BLM can consistently do 950-1,000 in those same clear times, but with a BRD. Would probably be very close with no BRD, but with a MCH.

I personally think MNK is in a way worse spot (brought for DK only in an optimal setting) than casters but I'm no MNK main.

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MNKs can do 900 if you kill it before the double preys but then again like you said, BLMs can do 950-1000 so yeah..

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Originally Posted by OneWingedSora

MNKs can do 900 if you kill it before the double preys but then again like you said, BLMs can do 950-1000 so yeah..

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Is that with a MCH or NIN? That's pretty impressive IMO.

I hated the BLM changes to begin with, now I don't mind them at all.

With added Spell Speed the rotation will become a lot easier, but at the moment it needs you to think. The only minor gripe I have with BLM is a missed Fire IV cast is currently completely missed due to the very tight time restrictions on AF.

that discussion is not for this thread as per the groups.

So with foe, i beat drgs and monks
My main static runs mch, we also never run 8 man so the numbers vary rather widly, that is why I'm not using numbers.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Is that with a MCH or NIN? That's pretty impressive IMO.

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NIN, yeah.

Well i still go back to old rotations if enochian is on cd. Nerf to flare no doubt is noticeable however. Many of situations now it is actually faster to use FireIv to blaze down mobs, it is just quicker then aoe roatations. Depending on how many enemies of course.
Flare still has it's use though. I know i have had FireIv's crit for a little over 6K but they average around 3200 -3800 or so.
Smn i have heard have a slight advantage now, i really have not been partied with too many yet so could not say for certain
And actually leylines you can move in and out of and the effects will remain until it turns off, defeats the purpose of course.
I would say blm may need tiny adjustments but overall it is completely fine. Again have not partied with summoners but really they doing more aoe dmg then blm.... i cannot believe that

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Originally Posted by Maero

Again have not partied with summoners but really they doing more aoe dmg then blm.... i cannot believe that

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They gained a lot in 3.0 for AoE.

+ Infinite Bane. While the 4th and on only take half potency, it's still quite a lot, especially on a Contagioned Bane. Tri-Disaster makes reapplying Bane painless and quick, while also potentially applying a very long set of RS buffed DoTs.
+ Painflare, 200 potency AoE. While 200 isn't super great, it's instant and only costs a stack, with only a 10s CD gating it.
+ 3 minute Enkindle. Enkindle ranges from 250 potency from Garuda unbuffed to near 600 potency buffed on Ifrit, AoE.
+ Deathflare, a 400 potency AoE, effectively 440 since you always have a 10% bonus while using it. Can do it once every 30s. Dreadwyrm Trance is also a small AoE boost itself, 10% bonus for 15s.
+ Radiant Shield from Ifrit now affects the party and can be an effective 300-400 potency attack per enemy that attacks the tank.

On top of their Shadow Flare, Miasma II, B2 spam, with pets using an AoE once every 30s.

Meanwhile, BLM in 3.0 got:

+ Enochian, 5% buff. Leylines, marginal AoE buff due to MP tick and F3 delayed cast gating.
- Nerfed Flare, by 10% per enemy up to 50%. Even packs of 3-4 enemies, the nerf hits home, and in large pulls you're basically hitting a large percentage of the enemies with a Flare without Astral Fire.
- Lost Convert > F2 > Flare. Lost Pot > Flare.

BLM AoE is still fine but once you see what a SMN can do it's not even close. Luckily this would only matter in a small amount of encounters in the past, in raid content.

Well damn, thanks SE.... #sigh
Perhaps future party finders group may lock out blm?
Sure hope not as i do find blm to still be strong

I see some awesome rivalry between Choco Milk and Xisin Skyblazer. Passing out popcorn. You can't get this kind of thing with any other job!

The new rotation was difficult to get used to at first and I think that was just compounded by trying to learn the new rotation while learning new fights. But, as a lot of people have said, it gets easier and more fun once you get used to the new rotation. I don’t want our rotation to revert back to the F1 spam/TC proc/B3 but I'd still like to see some changes.

-Enochian refreshes w/4s reduction(30, 26, 22).
-14s on AF. A lot of people have said this already and I totally agree.
I think having a few more secs of both buffs would allow us to dodge and/or weave in a TC proc.

Fun stuff I'd love to see but don't think are necessary.
-Reduced CD on swift as a blm trait.
-Skill that lengthens the time on all buffs w/210s CD. It'd help deal with an invulnerable boss or just give a little breathing room.
-T4 as an instacast, no mp proc triggered by TC. Higher potency w/a chance to proc a haste buff. Works if the time on Enochian and AF are changed as mentioned above.

How about having an extended AF/UI while under the effect of Enochain.

For example, if you don't have Enochain active then AF/UI is the usual 10 second stack, but while under Enochain the fire/ice stacks last say about 12-14 seconds dependent on spell speed. I think this would be a decent compromise for the current situation of BLM.

I would also like to see Sharp Cast changed into something more useful. Instead of forcing a Proc, how about insuring the next cast is a Critical hit? I don't particularly see Sharp Cast as a very useful cool down in the current 3.0 BLM setup with the tight as hell rotation.

Other than that, I would like it if they changed the way spell speed was weighed again. In v2.55 I had a 2.23 GCD and now I'm at 2.45+. Going back to the way spell speed used to be would be asking too much IMO, but I can't come up with a compromise that BLMs and SMNs will be happy with.

Those are just some of my own ideas thrown into the pit.

I really like the current Sharpcast, as it allows me to fit 3 F4s in without dropping AF, which can be useful when a jump is coming but you want to squeeze extra damage in.

I can deal with the Flare nerf, we were crazy OP before. My issue is how badly we get slammed for moving about. Our mobility is killed above 60:
1. Spellspeed nerfs make it much harder to cast on the go or squeeze an AF refresher/B4 before getting hit with AoE.
2. Ley Lines is completely based around rooting us in place.
3. Enochian has rendered thundercloud and to a lesser extent, firestarter procs basically useless, since they mess up our Enochian rotation for lower dps.
4. Enochian being our new primary mechanic forces us to choose between taking AoE damage or dropping a huge proportion of our dps. Since a lot of the new fights require so much movement it feels like we're doomed to do poor dps in them right out of the gate.

Nonetheless, I think it's an easy problem to fix. Any one of these would make life so much easier, especially in fights like Neverreap's final boss or BEX where we can have 3-4 casts interrupted due to movement/incoming damage.
1. Increase the potency of procs, and make them an actual dps increase to use. This would also restore mobility as they would become more desirable than F4 whilst allowing us to move about.
2. Increase the duration of Enochian, making it less likely to drop off. The CD is fine as it is.
3. Increase the duration of AF and UI while Enochian is active, reducing the number of times in a fight where we have to cast F1,2,3/B1,2,3 AND F4/B4 in order to keep Enochian.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

They gained a lot in 3.0 for AoE.

+ Infinite Bane. While the 4th and on only take half potency, it's still quite a lot, especially on a Contagioned Bane. Tri-Disaster makes reapplying Bane painless and quick, while also potentially applying a very long set of RS buffed DoTs.
+ Painflare, 200 potency AoE. While 200 isn't super great, it's instant and only costs a stack, with only a 10s CD gating it.
+ 3 minute Enkindle. Enkindle ranges from 250 potency from Garuda unbuffed to near 600 potency buffed on Ifrit, AoE.
+ Deathflare, a 400 potency AoE, effectively 440 since you always have a 10% bonus while using it. Can do it once every 30s. Dreadwyrm Trance is also a small AoE boost itself, 10% bonus for 15s.
+ Radiant Shield from Ifrit now affects the party and can be an effective 300-400 potency attack per enemy that attacks the tank.

On top of their Shadow Flare, Miasma II, B2 spam, with pets using an AoE once every 30s.

Meanwhile, BLM in 3.0 got:

+ Enochian, 5% buff. Leylines, marginal AoE buff due to MP tick and F3 delayed cast gating.
- Nerfed Flare, by 10% per enemy up to 50%. Even packs of 3-4 enemies, the nerf hits home, and in large pulls you're basically hitting a large percentage of the enemies with a Flare without Astral Fire.
- Lost Convert > F2 > Flare. Lost Pot > Flare.

BLM AoE is still fine but once you see what a SMN can do it's not even close. Luckily this would only matter in a small amount of encounters in the past, in raid content.

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I'm sorry but this is incredibly misleading and downright incorrect in several places. You're listing all of the SMN AOEs as if they can all be used together like that on a regular basis when the reality is that many of them are mutually exclusive due to how SMN works.

Painflare costing an aetherflow stack is a bigger deal than you imply since that means it shares with Bane and Fester. If we want to bane any dots that's one less Painflare. The 10s cooldown is largely irrelevant as it is the aetherflow cost that determines how often we can cast it. In an AOE situation in which we use Bane you'll only get two Painflares at most per 60s. It's also worth noting that in many add scenarios Bane is next to useless as the adds die to burst damage from other jobs before the dots tick through any significant damage.

Enkindle's 3 minute timer renders is largely insignificant in terms of overall DPS contribution. It's a nice burst skill when you have it up but with a cooldown that long it's not reliable to have it available when you need it unless you deliberately hold off on using it.

Deathflare can only be used every 60 seconds, not 30. The cooldown on the skill itself is 30s but since Dreadwyrm Trance is directly dependent on Aetherflow it has an effective 60s cooldown. You could potentially get a second off after 30s in your opener due to having Aetherflow precast but that's the only time you'll manage it unless you deliberately delay your use of Dreadwyrm Trance mid-fight (which would potentially lose you damage).

Yes, SMN's got a lot of love in the expansion and BLMs feel threatened by it. Most BLMs don't realise how badly SMNs were struggling prior to the expansion though and that most of these changes merely brought us up to par. BLMs are proven to be doing higher single target damage than SMNs now. If we do higher AOE damage then we're balanced. Each job has to at least have something they do better than another job or there is no reason for that job to exist. Prior to the expansion BLMs did higher single target and AOE damage compared to a SMN so you really have no grounds to be complaining on that front.

BLMs do not need any actual damage adjustments, what they need are QoL changes to make their rotation more flexible so they can more reliably achieve their potential. I wouldn't be averse to the devs removing the diminishing returns from Flare though as that change was unnecessary in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

I'm sorry but this is incredibly misleading and downright incorrect in several places. You're listing all of the SMN AOEs as if they can all be used together like that on a regular basis when the reality is that many of them are mutually exclusive due to how SMN works.

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Misleading, in your opinion perhaps. I disagree, most of your rebuttals to any buffs they've gained seem more like you're just trying to downplay Painflare/Enkindle/Deathflare/Bane as if they're so costly and inopportune to use, when it is child's play to line up Aetherflow and Enkindle timers with AoE within present and previous encounters, including all of coil and savage coil. I mean, you only really need 3 stacks to be top AoE, if you won't have an Aetherflow up by the AoE portion you chill with some Festers and gain massive DPS by doing so, it's not too complicated. Downright incorrect, no, nothing I said is factually incorrect, please don't say that to bolster your opinion that what I've said is not to your liking (you seem to be trying to defend SMN pretty hard here but you're defending against the wrong person, since I'm not actually attacking SMN).

I think you mistook my list of what SMN gained as a list of complaints - it's just a list of what they gained, and why they can do the most AoE. SMN AoE is the best in the game; better than ARR BLM, better than 2.0 WHM. I without any displeasure deal with that fact as BLM main/SMN alt, as it'd be strange to downplay it. However, if you'll look at the end of my post, I mention I don't even think it's a big deal, and presently it's not something I base my opinion on if I would like SMN or BLM better.

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Originally Posted by Maero

Well i still go back to old rotations if enochian is on cd ... I would say blm may need tiny adjustments but overall it is completely fine.

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Consider just a single microrotation:
Five Fire I casts with possible Fire III procs
is a huge loss when compared to
Fire IV, Fire IV, Fire I, (Fire III,) Fire IV, Fire IV, Fire IV

Then consider that you could be stuck in that for two cycles.

But let's assume that you manage to keep Enochian up so that you avoid that. The ice transition between each of your three microrotations becomes a larger portion of the rotation as time progresses, since you have less time for Fire IV bursts and Fire I/III buff refreshes, but still require either Blizzard I/III or transpose to get into ice and hope that it doesn't fall off while you're dodging because Swiftcast is on cooldown and you had to run outside of Leylines. This basically makes us kings of damage output for about 20 seconds, after which the awkward interplay between dodges and cast times can easily reduce us to meh for the next 40 seconds if just one second fails to happen as planned.

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Originally Posted by Asheloux

....if you want to be single target dps mage then be a SMN, not a BLM....
SMN has always been single target. If you want to be single target then why did you go BLM?

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SMN hasn't really ever been single target... The 3 main DOTS with Bain, Shadow Flare, Miasma 2, the Egi abilities..
Anyway, I feel you haven't figured out the new BLM rotation though.