What do you want to see on Astrologian?

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

If they're not the "same" moves, it'll just be similar moves that do close to the same thing, or else certain jobs will be left out of specific content due to not having this-or-that. Why do you think with the introduction of AST that SCH and WHM got some skills that made them operate somewhat similar to one another? Instant cast heals on WHM, stronger AOE heals for SCH. The homogenization is real.

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I'm talking about cross class skills.

Every SCH takes Cleric stance. Everyone takes swiftcast. Every WHM takes virus and e4e.

Boring.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

I'm talking about cross class skills.

Every SCH takes Cleric stance. Everyone takes swiftcast. Every WHM takes virus and e4e.

Boring.

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I know what you are talking about, and I'm explaining that in the current system, they would either have to give new caster/healer jobs "similar" versions of those skills within their own toolkit, or else they risk being left out of raids. Imagine if AST was the only healer without Protect and Cleric Stance...a WHM could cover those weaknesses in a raid (and now SCH since they have traited Protect too), but you'd probably cringe if you ever got an AST as your only healer in a 4-man, and a dual AST comp for raids wouldn't be viable.

I have yet to see you propose a solution other than "rework the system", which doesn't seem to be SE's intention at this point. Every caster/healer gets the same cross-class skills under the current system because, frankly, some of those skills are seen as nigh-mandatory.

Except if they added something to say Astrologian that's equally desired as something commonly cross classed it would leave room. Or open up more classes to choose from.

As it is, there isn't enough choice that leads to cookie cutter.

And I still think Cleric stance should be an off gcd buff with a CD/duration rather than a toggle.

Would up the skill level in using it and prevent it from having 100% uptime, as well as being less clunky to use.

Maybe 8s with 15s CD..

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

And I still think Cleric stance should be an off gcd buff with a CD/duration rather than a toggle.

Would up the skill level in using it and prevent it from having 100% uptime, as well as being less clunky to use.

Maybe 8s with 15s CD..

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We already have people complaining that CS requires too much skill to use as an oGCD buff that needs to be toggled off whenever you're done with it, and that on only a 5-second timer.

I'm sorry that you find it "clunky," but many of us are fine with its current implementation.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

We already have people complaining that CS requires too much skill to use as an oGCD buff that needs to be toggled off whenever you're done with it, and that on only a 5-second timer.

I'm sorry that you find it "clunky," but many of us are fine with its current implementation.

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That you can't toggle on or off mid cast and effs with macros more than macros already screw with it.

It needs made less awkward to use.

I personally would rather see base damage go up and remove it entirely but I'm attempting at making concessions here.

Hell I won't even use it in groups as it is so eh.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

That you can't toggle on or off mid cast and effs with macros more than macros already screw with it.

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Macros screw with everything, though.

As for toggling on/off in mid-cast, you can do that for all intents and purposes since hitting it in mid-cast will queue it to activate/de-activate as soon as your animation lock ends. I only see people get in trouble with Cleric Stance when they panic and mash the button to exit stance, which of course causes it to deactivate and immediately reactivate.

I was hoping AST would be a little more complex with stance dancing, but it seems like you can't switch between Diurnal Sect/Nocturnal Sect stances while in combat.

The card mechanics sound interesting, at least. Might try it for that, but otherwise, doesn't seem that interesting.

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Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

I was hoping AST would be a little more complex with stance dancing, but it seems like you can't switch between Diurnal Sect/Nocturnal Sect stances while in combat.

The card mechanics sound interesting, at least. Might try it for that, but otherwise, doesn't seem that interesting.

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I have to agree, so far from what I've read there's nothing overly blowing me away about AST so far.

Honestly being able to stance between a white mage in essence and scholar does seem a bit OP. It is natural that they would severely limit the healing stances. I was wondering how they was going to add the synery with scholar and white mage. Letting Astrologian be a mix between those two does sort of make sense. Seems the card drawling will either be OP as heck causing raids to stack astrologians and jobs that can use the buffs the best or it be so miniscule for a 20 second buff for one person over the dps a white mage and scholar can add to a raid that astrologian will just be used as a static just looking to fill a healer spot.

I am starting to believe that astrologian personal dps will be severely limited compared to that of the other healers.

Okay, so Star Ocean: 'Til the End of Time is one of my all-time fav games, and Sophia had a spell in that game called Southern Cross, which is a reference to a constellation. It was this massive beautiful upside-down cross AoE that covered the floor and pulsed damage fairly rapidly to anything it touched. I would love to see Astrologian make use of the constellations of Eorzea in a similar way to achieve either damaging or healing effects. I think it would give the team behind the game a cool chance to expand on the lore of Eorzea's sights in the sky at night ~ and I'm both an astronomy and astrology addict, I love stars, so it would feed my obsession nicely hahaha.

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Originally Posted by Galdous

Honestly being able to stance between a white mage in essence and scholar does seem a bit OP.

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I disagree.

If the individual heals are inherently less potent than SCH or WHM individually, they should be able to switch stances in combat. Giving up potency should result in increased versatility, and would give the class a more interesting game play mechanic and higher potential skill ceiling. IMO, this would be a better option and give more flavor to the class, setting them apart from both SCH and WHM.

If they are unable to change between the two stances, the healing skills should be equal in potency to SCH or WHM individually; otherwise, we will see a large amount of "No AST" in parties at the beginning of 3.0. People did this to both DRG and SMN at the beginning of 2.0 (and still to a certain degree with SMN), so don't doubt that it won't happen. With this implementation, there's essentially no difference between WHM/SCH and AST, and it only sets itself apart with the card mechanic; however, it would make balancing the three healing classes much easier.

The card mechanic really needs to have significant weight if they intend to have AST be less potent healers than WHM or SCH individually. Especially since they won't be DPSing or healing while sorting/shuffling through cards, easily missing 2-3 GCDs in order to draw an appropriate card/buff.

About the potency thing. I get the impression ast is designed to push out more heals in a smaller window, though each one may be individually weak they can just dump a sheer volume of them. The instant proc on benefic2, and lightspeed, play into perhaps an ability to 'play catch up' if you have to spend some gcds on cards.

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Originally Posted by LycorisSelunis

About the potency thing. I get the impression ast is designed to push out more heals in a smaller window, though each one may be individually weak they can just dump a sheer volume of them. The instant proc on benefic2, and lightspeed, play into perhaps an ability to 'play catch up' if you have to spend some gcds on cards.

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unfortunately given the global cooldowns, things like the benefic 2 proc and lightspeed will just be making the heals frontloaded and mobile instead of higher quantity. Which does have it's benefits too of course

I'm actually thinking lightspeed will be more for things that have long cast times but no potency.
Like stoneskin and raise, maybe that aoe stun skill will have no damage component as well

i like the lock stance in combat <3 more time to think in buff correctly and dps a bit if there is enough time for it.

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Originally Posted by Nihility

unfortunately given the global cooldowns, things like the benefic 2 proc and lightspeed will just be making the heals frontloaded and mobile instead of higher quantity. Which does have it's benefits too of course

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That's kind of my theory, as well.

Most mechanic-based damage doesn't really leave room for spot-healing; you either get hit with the mechanic and die, or you're left with so little health that anything short of a full-heal will result in death if you're hit again. At the onset of new content, at least.

I think we will see a lot of "No AST" parties at the beginning of 3.0 in Bismark/Revana/Alexander due to the reduced potency of their healing spells/stance lock.

Of course, this is all conjecture and theory crafting. AST might be perfectly balanced right out-of-the-box; SE has done a really great job making sure SCH and WHM are balanced and compliment each other well, hopefully they can do the same with AST.

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Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

The card mechanic really needs to have significant weight if they intend to have AST be less potent healers than WHM or SCH individually. Especially since they won't be DPSing or healing while sorting/shuffling through cards, easily missing 2-3 GCDs in order to draw an appropriate card/buff.

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The card mechanic already has several key details revealed about it that show them to be pretty potent, significant buffs. In addition, with Draw on a 30-second CD ASTs will be expected to Draw, and Draw often. SCH and WHM don't get anything close to the amount of buffs, as well as buff uptime, that AST will have. If AST heals were equally as potent, I'd almost guarantee we'd start to see "no WHM" groups in PF instead. :P

I feel like only really bad Astrologians will struggle for "2-3 GCDs" to manage their cards properly.

I'll try AST out, but I'll never give up SCH main.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I feel like only really bad Astrologians will struggle for "2-3 GCDs" to manage their cards properly.

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It will always take at least 2 GCDs to use a card from what I understand, and 3 if you need to exchange it for another, to empower it, or to save it.

Additionally, I'm curious to see if AST shields stack with SCH; if this is the case, I could see a lot more demand for AST over WHM.

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Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

It will always take at least 2 GCDs to use a card from what I understand, and 3 if you need to exchange it for another, to empower it, or to save it.

Additionally, I'm curious to see is AST shields stack with SCH; if this is the case, I could see a lot more demand for AST over WHM.

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I was of the impression that the actual act of DRAWING was on GCD, but that using a drawn card was oGCD. I guess we'll have to wait for the patch notes to see, but honestly, if Draw/use card/Shuffle/Road/Spread all are on GCD that's really inefficient and I can't imagine it staying that way for long. Imagine being a SCH and needing a GCD to control your fairy...yikes.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I was of the impression that the actual act of DRAWING was on GCD, but that using a drawn card was oGCD.

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Looking at the footage from Germany, there is no MP cost associated with drawing/Use/Shuffle/Road/Spread (assuming those are the correct icons), so they may be off the GCD; I don't know of any "free" MP cost skills that are on the GCD, so it's just assumption based on previous skills. However, if they work similar to Aetherflow-based abilities that SCH has, they still can't be used at the same time GCD skills are being used. So it might be possible to juggle them between casts, which seems to make more sense, but can't be used at the same time (like faerie heals).

I really like the AST animations; they did a great job on them based on the footage I saw.

Isn't the whole stance buff thing just built into the heals?

So for example, if WHM cures for 350 potency,

Then AST cures for 250 potency + 100 <X>

Where <X> is either: healing dot or absorb shield.

That is how I understood it.

I thought the nocturnal stance and other stance could be swapped in combat but it just had a long cooldown. Is it combat locked now?

Having to pick it before combat would be really stupid, what do they define combat as, being under attack? If you're in the wrong one and something attacks you, or you interact with something which does the "you sense a hostile presence nearby!" you wouldn't be able to change. Are there any other jobs that force you to pick something before the start of battle and not change it until the end? I've only played BRD, WHM and BLM and none of them have anything like that.

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Originally Posted by 416to305

Having to pick it before combat would be really stupid, what do they define combat as, being under attack? If you're in the wrong one and something attacks you, or you interact with something which does the "you sense a hostile presence nearby!" you wouldn't be able to change. Are there any other jobs that force you to pick something before the start of battle and not change it until the end? I've only played BRD, WHM and BLM and none of them have anything like that.

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When the mob receives any enmity you are in combat.

Stoneskin 2 can only be used before combat so it'll probably work like that

But Stoneskin II isn't going to make or break the battle, you could always use regular Stoneskin, and it's really more the tank that needs it. From what it sounds like these 2 stances basically change completely the way the job plays and works.

From someone at E3:
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHpvk3NUwAMvW3W.jpg:small

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

From someone at E3:
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHpvk3NUwAMvW3W.jpg:small

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Do want. /10char

i wonder how exactly it'll like scale, seems pretty nice regardless

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Originally Posted by Gh0st_Pr0digy

i wonder how exactly it'll like scale, seems pretty nice regardless

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Right now 400 potency is about 25% a non-tank's HP, closer to 16% of a tank's HP (depending on build, less if high VIT specced). I could see the potency straight increasing by 1% per 1% HP lost, up to 800 potency at 1% or 50% of a non-tank's HP and about 33% of a tank's HP, that doesn't seem unreasonable to me if I had to guess.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

From someone at E3:
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHpvk3NUwAMvW3W.jpg:small

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Ooh, shiny! I want.

Wow so if you fail to get it off, essentially they would die without dignity.

Talk about shameful.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Wow so if you fail to get it off, essentially they would die without dignity.

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http://i.imgur.com/TmZAZIR.jpg

Astro skills/traits revealed!

http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/x...pso0w5hnqv.png

http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/x...psrdylt6yj.png

So, they have a default Benefic and Helios, then an aspected Benefic and Helios that isn't part of the traits? Seems kinda odd, will have to see how it plays.

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Originally Posted by UOdhn

So, they have a default Benefic and Helios, then an aspected Benefic and Helios that isn't part of the traits? Seems kinda odd, will have to see how it plays.

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It means that those aspected actions will perform Benefic/Helios with an added HoT or shielding, depending on which Sect you are using. So, using Aspected Benefic in Diurnal Sect means it's a Benefic with a HoT running, and if you use that same skill in Nocturnal Sect, it will give you a shield on top of the Benefic. Same idea with Helios. The aspected versions will likely have the same base raw-healing potencies as the basic spells, but with an added MP cost as well as the HoT/shielding effect for more active healing. The trait for Enhanced Benefic likely makes proccing instacast-Benefic II off Benefic possible. This is my guess anyway.

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Originally Posted by Tranquil

It means that those aspected actions will perform Benefic/Helios with an added HoT or shielding, depending on which Sect you are using. So, using Aspected Benefic in Diurnal Sect means it's a Benefic with a HoT running, and if you use that same skill in Nocturnal Sect, it will give you a shield on top of the Benefic. Same idea with Helios. The aspected versions will likely have the same base raw-healing potencies as the basic spells, but with an added MP cost as well as the HoT/shielding effect for more active healing. The trait for Enhanced Benefic likely makes proccing instacast-Benefic II off Benefic possible. This is my guess anyway.

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Most likely. This is what I was thinking after reading them over again.

Getting rather excited to take AST for a spin. Damn you, SE, for giving me conflicting priorities out of the gate.

I wanna see an achievement like the tank mount ones (200 raids or whatever) called Friends with Benefics. Becuase you know, friends with benefits....? I'll let myself out.

In all seriousness though, i want to use AST in content, i've liked everything i've seen so far. I may switch it to my main job. Only thing is they said they would be a bit less effective than SCH and WHM at their respective roles, i just don't want AST to unbalance the game or for it to never be used in high end content because they're "sub par".

If the speculation on Aspected Benefic ends up being true then Astrologian has some interesting options for single target healing in particular. Benefic and Benefic II sound like an equivalent to Cure and Cure II, but then Aspected Benefic would work more like Adloquium, being a low heal with an added shield or regen effect. That's quite a bit of flexibility. Not to mention Essential Dignity which is not bad by any means, though unlike the other emergency heals it sounds like it will suffer from Cleric Stance.

Also I had a feeling Astrologian had something for AoE healing other than Helios and Wheel of Fate (which now goes by a different name that needs to be determined) and it would seem that something is Aspected Helios. It would be nice if it were easier to make out the spell costs in that image to help get an estimate on how all of these spells compare with each other.

Full list with some guesswork posted on reddit. The order of these actions also line up with a previous blog image.

http://i.imgur.com/1whyU7Q.png

One thing bugs me. If aspected benefic/helios are the only ones to benefit from sect...why learn diurnal at 30 with no spell that it affects till 34. Speaking of, blm learns enochian before either blizz4 or fire4, so wtf good does that do either?

Wondering of the sects affect some other stats as well like perhaps diurnal increases spellspeed and nocturnal increases crit or some such....