HW bard- channeling?

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Originally Posted by RinchanNau

There simply isn't enough information to talk about Bloodletter procs while using Wanderer's Minuet. Perhaps Bloodletter functions differently or isn't used at all. Perhaps there is one GCD in Wanderer's Minuet that does not have a charge time. Perhaps you can build Bloodletter stacks with each proc and expend them all at the same time with some new ability. Probably not, but the point is we do not know. Just need to wait for more information. :)

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More info is what we need. Though at the same time, there's no harm in theorycrafting it. Though at the same time, it shouldn't really shrug off on the basis of "we don't have enough info" alone.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

I just wish the animation made more sense. We shouldn't be channeling while reaching for an arrow, but while actually aiming at our target.

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This is definitely my only issue with WM. I feel like they completely missed an opportunity, would have looked way cooler if they were charging their arrow back.

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

This is what worried me the most about this skill "how much is the damage increase" and "how long will it take for it to catch up".
12 seconds just to catch up means its better to just use it at the beginning of the fight before the battle starts or right before the boss comes out of its immunity status. Otherwise, using it on the fly in AoE heavy battles will imply quite the major loss of DPS... so once you need to move and decast it, recasting it for the sake of DPSing might prove negative.

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This all really depends on just how powerful the stance is. Also, on the subject of Bloodletter, there's a chance it becomes a completely different ability under WM, where even it having a channel time would result in higher DPS than otherwise.

Well, it is said Minuet will enhance all attacks in a 25%... but will it be affected by Battle Voice?
That would mean a 50% power bonus from Minuet :/

Then you wouldn't be a turret, but a frigging cannon...

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

Well, it is said Minuet will enhance all attacks in a 25%... but will it be affected by Battle Voice?
That would mean a 50% power bonus from Minuet :/

Then you wouldn't be a turret, but a frigging cannon...

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Currently Battle Voice only affects enemies and allies, which means no buff to the self-buffing Minuet.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

No :v

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aww, oh well :<

no new news about WM or how it will compensate for the loss of Auto-Attacks? :(

hopefully barrage will have a different use under WM effect. increasing our dps :(

im thinking of how we will silence during battle in WM stance... if we are in the middle of a skill cast, then we will have to cancel it, then blunt arrow, then cast again. >< of course priority will be to silence instead of dps skill (like t9 blue golem, or high voltage back in the day :D )

i also think bards will end up making 2 sets of gear.

set1) for high mobile fights: Crit/Det build. minimum WM chances.
set2) for turret fights: SS/Crit or SS/Det build. high possibility of staying stationary. WM most of the fight.

This will push bards to the top dps slots. I'm already beating every other job in the dps department. Imagine the qq when bards are top dog again.

Just FYI you do NOT want to be the top dps on paper.

Because you will get nerfed.

So...yea. That isn't something you want to wish for.

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Originally Posted by Galdous

This will push bards to the top dps slots. I'm already beating every other job in the dps department. Imagine the qq when bards are top dog again.

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That's mostly cause there are a lot of bad players out there. In DF/PF, I generally beat out 95% of the other dps I end up with. Then I go to my coil static, and get reminded that when paired with other dps of equal skill/gear, brd still has the lowest dps potential among the dps classes.

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Originally Posted by Zophar

That's mostly cause there are a lot of bad players out there. In DF/PF, I generally beat out 95% of the other dps I end up with. Then I go to my coil static, and get reminded that when paired with other dps of equal skill/gear, brd still has the lowest dps potential among the dps classes.

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Does not help we have the lowest weapon damage in game but with the right rotation you can do high dps just nothing like a monk/drg >_< (on topic) hopefully barrage with work with Wm somehow or it'll be a fairly big dps loss

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Originally Posted by Zophar

That's mostly cause there are a lot of bad players out there. In DF/PF, I generally beat out 95% of the other dps I end up with. Then I go to my coil static, and get reminded that when paired with other dps of equal skill/gear, brd still has the lowest dps potential among the dps classes.

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Depends on the content really. In FCoB there is that reminder of having the lowest potential. Though multi dotting can close that gap quite a bit in t10 and t12. And t13, if there's a DRG, always gave me the best chance to be up there with melee. Now move over to something like t9 savage and BRD and SMN start looking a lot nicer. I think I've been top DPS on every t9 savage kill I've done. That's not to say there aren't melee that can beat me, but it's just an easier fight for BRD to optimize.

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Originally Posted by RinchanNau

but it's just an easier fight for BRD to optimize.

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sorry but i have to point this out, being easier to optimize does not mean by default you should beat the other dps, and balance changes shouldn't be made that way either, because even though its harder to optimize, if the classes were balanced by that the melle that do manage to optimize would be so far above the other dps it wouldnt even be funny

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Originally Posted by Zamii

sorry but i have to point this out, being easier to optimize does not mean by default you should beat the other dps, and balance changes shouldn't be made that way either, because even though its harder to optimize, if the classes were balanced by that the melle that do manage to optimize would be so far above the other dps it wouldnt even be funny

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Melee often have more downtime due to (usually) dealing with more mechanics than ranged (and in Bard's case, being able to move) and having more complex rotations/internal mechanics. BLM have really high damage and more simple rotations, at the expense of having to stay rooted and moving having a high DPS cost. Bards do (to a point) less damage than either of them with the ability to be far more mobile and have support/utility.

The issue for Bards (at least to an outsider) seems to be that there are fights where their mobility doesn't benefit them. Heavensward is adjusting things but keeping a balance. DRG, MNK and NIN are all getting "moar damage" and some raid utility, since "being melee/in danger" can't really change. For BLM they are doubling-down on the "no mobility for damage" with their Fire4/Blizz4 circle.Bards are being able to balance out their damage by trading mobility, so instances where their mobility is "pointless," they are no longer being hindered (as far as we know). Summoner I'm hoping is getting more burst, so they can handle clearing adds/DPS races better, which might be the case with their Bahamut-stacks thing to tackle their issues.

My guess is there will be more fights where mobility matters, since a good bit of the new mechanics actually involve positioning and I'd bet dollars to donuts that there will be plenty of times where *not* channeling is the right answer.

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Originally Posted by Zamii

sorry but i have to point this out, being easier to optimize does not mean by default you should beat the other dps, and balance changes shouldn't be made that way either, because even though its harder to optimize, if the classes were balanced by that the melle that do manage to optimize would be so far above the other dps it wouldnt even be funny

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Melee being above a job like BRD isn't really an issue to me. Considering that just by not playing Paeon I can lower a skilled melee's DPS by 30-40 on certain encounters. Factor in that most parties have two melees these days and often at least one of the tanks heavily spec'd for DPS. Note that I can lower a caster's DPS by quite a bit as well by not providing them with a BV Foe or two. Or three if we're undergeared and the encounter is long enough. I have the power to assist healers struggling with MP as well.

Don't get me wrong, I love min maxing and trying to play a job to its fullest. I'd love to be able to compete more with melee on these dummy test encounters FCoB gave us. But I am also aware of other things I offer the raid as a BRD. I do not think BRD is really underpowered even if I always wish for a higher ceiling. I think it's generally balanced pretty well for what a bard can offer the raid with Foe, Paeon, and Ballad.

Wanderer's Minuet may help narrow the DPS gap on dummy test sorts of encounters. We'll find out shortly.

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Originally Posted by spelley

Melee often have more downtime due to (usually) dealing with more mechanics than ranged (and in Bard's case, being able to move) and having more complex rotations/internal mechanics.

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this all comes back down to the optimization i mentioned, almost every mechanic in the game that forces melle off the boss actually has workarounds that mean you lose no dps at all, or very little dps, the few mechanics that force you out entirely will affect everyone, not just the melle.

Yep. A big part of any job is knowing how to reduce those mechanic penalties to their very minimum, whether it be knowing when to save procs on blm, or when to save moves like spineshatter on drg for a gap closer, or perfect balance on mnk when you KNOW you're about to lose your stacks and myriad other tricks. Optimizing a dps is more than just having the perfect rotation.

Mostly because no class has any real moving parts, so fights are the entirety of the randomness and "skill" that comes into playing a class.

Otherwise you're essentially just playing on auto.

Overall it seems like a very nice addition IMO. The ability to diversify tactics and give up mobility for more dps is huge and could really boost a bards dps. Obviously there are unknown intricacies involving auto attacks, barrage, and other moves but I'm sure the developers have taken this into account.

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Originally Posted by Zamii

this all comes back down to the optimization i mentioned, almost every mechanic in the game that forces melle off the boss actually has workarounds that mean you lose no dps at all, or very little dps, the few mechanics that force you out entirely will affect everyone, not just the melle.

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"Has workarounds" ie: the melee has to react accordingly and do, oftentimes, counter-intuitive things. For a Dragoon, for instance, effective uses of jumps for positioning (while still keeping them on CD at all other times) requires skill. A good DPS will refresh their DoTs as a higher priority if they know they have to move away from boss for a while (even if it clips them by X%). A good DRG will know the last second they can keep DPSing and then use a <X> Jump to reposition themselves for adds/next mechanic to minimize downtime. A good MNK will know how to maintain their Greased Lightning (or know when to expend them come HW) with a boss jumping in and out of combat. A NIN knows what Ninjutsus to use and when during any phase of the fight so they are maximizing their DPS time.

Learning how to incorporate all that while maintaining complex damage rotations, avoiding (even more) AoEs, keeping mechanics/adds in mind, managing their enmity output at times and dealing with positionals and their standing position is what separates a good melee DPS from a bad one.

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Originally Posted by Zamii

sorry but i have to point this out, being easier to optimize does not mean by default you should beat the other dps, and balance changes shouldn't be made that way either,

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But that's how it works in all games. Certain classes, roles, actions, spells, weapons and potions are more effective in certain fights than others. There will always be one Job that operates "better" in each turn, and one Job that isn't as favoured. Unfortunately, it's extremely difficult to balance fights between job equality and mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Zamii

if the classes were balanced by that the melle that do manage to optimize would be so far above the other dps it wouldnt even be funny

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It's funny, because that's exactly what is going to happen in 3.0. There's still to this day, players who do not know how to press buttons in the correct order receive an efficient DPS output. The complexities added in Heavensward will definitely differentiate those DPS between:

• Those who know all the ins and outs of their job, have all the timings perfectly down as well as the interactions between different off-cooldowns, to optimise for the situation at hand.
• Those who understand their rotation well enough to break it down and know how it works.
• Those who acknowledge the rotation and follow it through like a bible and don't fully optimise their rotation, aka textbook DPS.
• Those who don't do anything.

Every job is getting a ticking buff/stance which they need to manage to execute certain skills or receive a damage boost, one new powerful attack which punishes the user for improper use, two skills at a minimum they need to juggle around depending on the timers of their buffs/DoTs, on top of the 2.X stuff, such as DoT and oCD management. There's a lot of things the player, regardless of their Job, will need to pay attention to, and this is before we even add Boss Mechanics into the mix.

This expansion will definitely plant a thick wall between good and bad DPS.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

This expansion will definitely plant a thick wall between good and bad DPS.

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Which I welcome cuz we need more posts in the DPS Corner of Shame!!