RIP Bard

So.. with this new found information I guess we can say that Bard is now MOSTLY dead. As you all know, there's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there's usually only one thing you can do.

What's that you ask?

Why, Go through their pockets and look for unused minions of course! ;)

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Originally Posted by Duelle

If I'm not remembering wrong, the maximum number of songs that could be affecting you was 4, but that would require two bards in the party.

So according Zhexos' update, the buff doesn't prevent movement like I originally though. It basically turns BRD into a caster. I'm still not happy to hear that and question why that wasn't reserved for a future ranged DPS class.

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And thus I have learned new things, thank you.

As for the buff: Alot of people did say they were willing to trade mobility for dps, and they got it. You can still turn it off and go to normal dps as it currently is, and there probably will be times when not having it on will be for the better.

If it essentially changes all our moves to casting, doesn't that make it to where we can't weave in oGCD abilities in between globals? If that's the case, this song seems entirely useless unless the damage output is significant.

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Originally Posted by JohnMccain

If it essentially changes all our moves to casting, doesn't that make it to where we can't weave in oGCD abilities in between globals? If that's the case, this song seems entirely useless unless the damage output is significant.

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It changes your skills with the charge but it is probably a song to be used when you have open DPS time and nothing to move for. e.g; when you're not getting a line off T8 boss but just dps'ing then you turn it off before you gotta move or while you're on the move. It can also be used in T10 when you're on the phases that you're not the charge mark and don't gotta move in for charge but you sit there with heat debuff.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

So according Zhexos' update, the buff doesn't prevent movement like I originally though. It basically turns BRD into a caster. I'm still not happy to hear that and question why that wasn't reserved for a future ranged DPS class.

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From what I can figure it is to allow Bard stationary target DpS to reach similar levels as the other DpS classes. The three new classes and the new skills for existing classes seem to be designed so that no class will have an overwhelming advantage or disadvantage when doing content.

Consider a new T8 like fight, if the Machinist fill a similar support DpS role to the Bard but has superior stationary DpS then groups would want Machinists over Bards.

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Originally Posted by Lillia

It changes your skills with the charge but it is probably a song to be used when you have open DPS time and nothing to move for. e.g; when you're not getting a line off T8 boss but just dps'ing then you turn it off before you gotta move or while you're on the move. It can also be used in T10 when you're on the phases that you're not the charge mark and don't gotta move in for charge but you sit there with heat debuff.

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I know it can be used in low mobility portions of fights, but that's not my question. If you are casting your abilities, you are losing places where you can use oGCD abilities(such as bloodletter, misery's end, blunt arrow, repelling shot, and all of your damage buff cds).

Personally interested to see how potent minuet is when stacked with Battle Voice (IF it can even be used to buff wanderers) :D

This sounds so bad for Bard because we have so MANY off global cooldown skills. It's going against what Bard is. I would be fine with it if it din't make our skills become casts..... But i'm sure most of the Bard players want to keep their mobility and if they wanted to play a caster they wouldn't be playing Bard but Summ or Blm.

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Originally Posted by JohnMccain

I know it can be used in low mobility portions of fights, but that's not my question. If you are casting your abilities, you are losing places where you can use oGCD abilities(such as bloodletter, misery's end, blunt arrow, repelling shot, and all of your damage buff cds).

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I see what you mean now... mm..... Idk. we just gotta see how it changes bard when we get it, the damage could end up being worth it somehow. >.<

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Originally Posted by Lillia

I see what you mean now... mm..... Idk. we just gotta see how it changes bard when we get it, the damage could end up being worth it somehow. >.<

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Even if it's worth using it will make the job clunky because of all our OGC skills.

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Originally Posted by Zhexos

Greetings,





Actually the effect from Wanderer's Minuet does not disappear when you move, this is our mistake, and we apologize for the confusion. It is as Seifa mentioned, that if you move while using your actions, then that action will be interrupted.

We have updated our post with the correct information in the digest thread here.

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0.0 I didn't think a community team member would post. It's really cool that it is clarified though, since that actually does make the song viable since it will allow you to make the slight movements needed in a movement critical fight without having to recast your bard song. That makes this a whole lot better than I originally thought it was, lol.

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Originally Posted by Rose-Wild

Even if it's worth using it will make the job clunky because of all our OGC skills.

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Very much this. Not sure how well or effective that could be.

This is...
well, it isn't awful, especially since we can turn it off and on. Does it have a cast time like other songs, if so how long? Is it on-GCD even while turning it off?
To be honest this doesn't sound like the end of the world, even with all our oGCD skills. I would think the buff you get from using the song must at least consider the damage potential in those lost skill abilities or what's the point?

I'll have to try it out before I have a more solid opinion.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

Still not exactly something that would be easy to do, and thats BEFORE we start talking about doing so in battle. That said it makes sense, more so if one song is considered voice and the other instrumental I guess.

Though now I wonder where I got the "one person could do 4 songs at once" thing from...

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Not only is four songs from one bard possible in FFXI (with the right harp), five songs is possible as well. The job operates far differently from what we have in FFXIV, though.

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

This is...
well, it isn't awful, especially since we can turn it off and on. Does it have a cast time like other songs, if so how long? Is it on-GCD even while turning it off?
To be honest this doesn't sound like the end of the world, even with all our oGCD skills. I would think the buff you get from using the song must at least consider the damage potential in those lost skill abilities or what's the point?

I'll have to try it out before I have a more solid opinion.

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From the video it looks like it has a long cast like Ballad or Requiem but from what we got told it doesn't go away so you can cast it before starting a fight. My issue is with the nature of bloodletter... it's going to be really annoying. It's not like with Summ that you see that your OGCD is going to be ready so you can just use ruin 2 and use your ogcd in the middle of it without losing any dps.

If it turns our shots into a channeled ability (which is why the *holds arrow at quiver* animation is for), it'd need to some clunkiness with bloodletter procs.

I like it. Seems interesting. Casting = bigger hits. They dont necessarily mean better DPS but theyre still much more satisfying :P

That entire video looks promising actually. Machinist seemed pretty basic though.

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Originally Posted by Zhexos

Greetings,





Actually the effect from Wanderer's Minuet does not disappear when you move, this is our mistake, and we apologize for the confusion. It is as Seifa mentioned, that if you move while using your actions, then that action will be interrupted.

We have updated our post with the correct information in the digest thread here.

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Following Zhexos's update... good bye clip-less Bloodletter unless the cast times are significantly shorter than the GCDs. Same with the other many oGCDs and the weaving thereof, which used to be the difference between an optimal and non-optimal bard apart from CD-immediacy and minimizing song-dps-costs.

If it's anything like the procs for BLM, then Bloodletter will still instant proc with no cooldown or cast time.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

If it's anything like the procs for BLM, then Bloodletter will still instant proc with no cooldown or cast time.

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Bloodletters can proc mid-cast though. Firestarter fire BLM happens after a cast hits.

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Originally Posted by m3eansean

just run around all the time loldpsing

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The best description I've ever seen about most archers/bards' playstyle XD

Personally on my main character I took archer as my dps class precisely because of the mobility and low risk. I play from Chile so I have about 2 full seconds of ping, so from time to time I may eat an AoE or 2. As a tank I may still survive, but as a dps... that's not good. So I went archer precisely for the mobility. But eh, with knowledge about where is the best position to stand still and when to use this song it shouldn't be much of a problem.

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Originally Posted by The_Last_Dragoon

No I didn't, lol. I just got up and watched the job skill video and was horrified when I saw a delay on Windbite and Poison Shot.

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So, assumptions.

Yep. You're dumb.

https://youtu.be/kbvv0rgrT4k?t=104

So, I think I see a different Bloodletter, with two hits. But after that, is that Barrage? Since we can't auto attack with the song up, would make sense if Barrage behaved differently with the song.

They both may be new and different skills, though.

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Originally Posted by Zhexos

...Actually the effect from Wanderer's Minuet does not disappear when you move, this is our mistake, and we apologize for the confusion. It is as Seifa mentioned, that if you move while using your actions, then that action will be interrupted.

We have updated our post with the correct information in the digest thread here.

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Thank you for the clarification Zhexos. I was stoked before and now i am thrilled!

Somebody please tell me where the downside to this is?

I get STRONGER ATTACKS via a self buff, at NO MP cost, can still use my songs to support the party, and all I have to do is stand still for it to be in effect?!

BRB, getting a Bard logo tattoo.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

If it turns our shots into a channeled ability (which is why the *holds arrow at quiver* animation is for), it'd need to some clunkiness with bloodletter procs.

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remember that we will get new traits as well , maybe we get one that make bloodletter instant even with wandereer minuet on.....or who knows :o

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Somebody please tell me where the downside to this is?

I get STRONGER ATTACKS via a self buff, at NO MP cost, can still use my songs to support the party, and all I have to do is stand still for it to be in effect?!

BRB, getting a Bard logo tattoo.

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Outside of the trade-off of mobility for increased oomph(which i might add is used completely at the discretion of the player-don't like it, don't use it) don't see one from the revised description given thus far.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

According to some other threads I've seen XI did allow not only two songs at once, but even four at once! Which is even wierder. Mayhaps its more of when you sing both songs, you kinda combine them into one. Mash-ups and all that.

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The logic was a bit different.
Since they had durations like any other spell, the understanding was that they were just spells cast with music instead of magic.
There were also a LOT more of them. By 50 you had about a dozen of them. The cap was 99. And given those two songs could be the same "line" and still stack, the actual count rather than just "upgrade lines" was valid :P

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Originally Posted by Able

So, assumptions.

Yep. You're dumb.

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http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/assume.gif

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Originally Posted by Zhexos

Actually the effect from Wanderer's Minuet does not disappear when you move, this is our mistake, and we apologize for the confusion. It is as Seifa mentioned, that if you move while using your actions, then that action will be interrupted..

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Well, in that case that really does change things up a bit. I'm much more stoked for this upcoming skill with this knowledge. Thanks for clearing up the confusion! That'll give us some great options in combat, but I'm still very curious to see just how much the damage is increased considering we're sacrificing our auto attacks and speed.

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Originally Posted by Inferiae

So, I think I see a different Bloodletter, with two hits. But after that, is that Barrage? Since we can't auto attack with the song up, would make sense if Barrage behaved differently with the song.

They both may be new and different skills, though.

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It might have been sidewinder, which was also mentioned during the Live Letter. It's possible that they've altered the affect of Barrage but you'd think that would be something they'd have mentioned considering they went over the other major changes.

If the damage increase is x5 I don't mind.

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Originally Posted by Inferiae

https://youtu.be/kbvv0rgrT4k?t=104

So, I think I see a different Bloodletter, with two hits. But after that, is that Barrage? Since we can't auto attack with the song up, would make sense if Barrage behaved differently with the song.

They both may be new and different skills, though.

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I actually started really analyzing the motions that this Bard is doing, and I think I may have noticed something important. We know that the first action is Wanderer's Minuet since the next two actions should be recognizably to any Bard as Poison Shot and Windbite. While still under these effects though, the player then uses an instant action that requires no charge up, and due to the previous 2 actions it looked like this was the new ability Sidewinder. It could be that the reason why Sidewinder doesn't have a wind-up is because it's off the global cooldown, which means this song probably doesn't affect Bloodletter. It's then that they undoubtedly use Barrage and proceed to show us two new skills that have a charge-up. I think it's possible that these two skills shown are the Barrage upgraded version.

The first one I'm about 90% sure is Heavy Shot, since it looks like a generic shot except with multiplied arrows. The second one I'm guessing is Straight Shot since it's the only remaining integral part of the Bard rotation that isn't obviously represented, but has an extremely different animation that doesn't quite make sense. This can't be Sidewinder since they explicitly state that Sidewinder is a physical attack. It's possible that this ability just hasn't been revealed yet, and isn't actually affected by barrage.

rip bardu chan

Kinda annoying seeing so many whine about BRD getting stronger...

Cause that's what it is, they're getting stronger, not weaker like some seem to think...

In a fight, or mechanic of a fight where you have to move a lot, BRDs will still be kings. You just turn off the song and do you're normal things. What makes them stronger, is when you don't have to move a lot... They will be able to get good DPS there too.

So what are people whining about? Their mobility was holding them back to increase their DPS, cause they would be OP if they just increased it without accounting for the obvious advantages that would have.

I think they pretty much have done a good job with every job, but I still hear people complaining about everything for some weird reason.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

Kinda annoying seeing so many whine about BRD getting stronger...

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It's because there's not much information. We don't really know if this is a DPS increase overall, which is really the issue. It's easy to look at it on paper and say "Yep, our attacks are 2x stronger. Go Bard" and then lament later when you parse lower than before because you didn't count auto-attacks into the mix. Or you forgot that in the time it takes to use a single Bloodletter, a non-minuet Bard has already fired off Bloodletter and Heavy Shot AND an auto-attack.

See? There's a lot of variables when talking about optimal DPS. That's why I've been saying there needs to be a big difference between using Minuet and not for it to truly increase our DPS. Otherwise it's just a fancy way of doing the same damage while sacrificing mobility.

Bards, be appreciative. You could have ended up like us NINs, we got better Huton but got pretty much a nerf too.

You didn't get nerfed or even inconvenienced much really. Even when I play bard I find myself able to stand in one spot most of the time O.o.

You've got it easy!

Also, more on topic. Even if Minuet doesn't do much of an increase to be worth using, as someone said, BRD will still be the king of on the move dps. If it does increase dps, just turn it off when necessary and put it back on when able.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

It's because there's not much information. We don't really know if this is a DPS increase overall, which is really the issue. It's easy to look at it on paper and say "Yep, our attacks are 2x stronger. Go Bard" and then lament later when you parse lower than before because you didn't count auto-attacks into the mix. Or you forgot that in the time it takes to use a single Bloodletter, a non-minuet Bard has already fired off Bloodletter and Heavy Shot AND an auto-attack.

See? There's a lot of variables when talking about optimal DPS. That's why I've been saying there needs to be a big difference between using Minuet and not for it to truly increase our DPS. Otherwise it's just a fancy way of doing the same damage while sacrificing mobility.

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Then don't use it?

I don't understand your point really, because why would SE make it the same or less potent than not using it? That makes no sense at all...

It's not like they have removed the mobility of BRD completely, you can still move about and attack exactly like now, and you would only use this song when you know you can stand still and power up big hitting attacks. You're gonna do more DPS using that one, than not using it, otherwise SE would have made an ability that nobody uses

I'm ok with them changing things up, part/ if not most .. of the fun of any class is trying to figure out when to and when Not to use skills. This will be a new tool, on some fights , I can stay putt for several sec.. so why not have my dps boosted.. then, when I have to move, change so I can shoot while moving.. , I think its going to make some leave, some like it more .. adjust or you will need to find a new job that you enjoy more, there are a lot to pick. im also looking forward to the monk changes.

this wont be a mash x buttons and win.. its going to take some thought on any job as all have slight tweaks that will make/change the play styles im sure.

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Originally Posted by Inferiae

https://youtu.be/kbvv0rgrT4k?t=104

So, I think I see a different Bloodletter, with two hits. But after that, is that Barrage? Since we can't auto attack with the song up, would make sense if Barrage behaved differently with the song.

They both may be new and different skills, though.

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It does look like it, the sidewinder I'm assuming is either the new move where the bard went up in the air after charging and did multiple shots or the animation where the bard twirled their finger and you saw a poison-like effect on the monster.... could always be that there were three new moves in there though and one just wasn't mentioned this time around which might be mentioned at the next live that could be... maybe... E3? :o

Either way, PLD still has to know the name of that one ??? skill too. so I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't the last time we're having skills covered.

This seems virtually useless in raids (current ones at least, and I suspect future ones). Remember it's not just about finding a place where you can hold still... that window of standing still has to be long enough to make it worth the cast time of the song. You'll be losing GCDs, so you'll need enough time to stand there in order to make it worthwhile.

T10 you might be able to use it during the add phases. Nowhere else really.Too much movement is required for tethers and charges.
T11 you move constantly. Can't think of any point it would be worth using.
T12 you could use it if the team doesn't have you handling redfires, fountains, etc, but most teams do ask that of bard precisely because they can move and attack.
T13 you move almost constantly. Flatten/akh morn doesn't require movement, but they are so fast by the time you got the song off megaflare/earthshaker would be up. Maybe you could use during parts of the add phase.

People are going to say "BLMs manage!" but BLM doesn't have to cast a spell just to get into "dps mode", which will then drop every time they move, forcing them to recast it. Realistically a bard will be casting this dozens of times in a raid, and I can't imagine it will increase their damage enough to be worth it.

This is talking raids of course. Dungeons and such? I'm sure you can post up and nuke away, but honestly who cares? Dungeons are rofl-easy and your dps really doesn't matter.