Connecting the DoTs: A Summoner Guide

Yup good points panda :)

Tbh the classic opener is the best way to go at the moment until new dots etc are added

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

Yup good points panda :)

Tbh the classic opener is the best way to go at the moment until new dots etc are added

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New Classic Opener - RS - X-POT - Tri-Disaster

<3 <3 <3

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

New Classic Opener - RS - X-POT - Tri-Disaster

<3 <3 <3

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Well see here is what I've been thinking.
I'm not sure Tri - Disaster yet is actually worth using in the opener because it takes an AF stack.

At current, starting with Bio II, means that for the first global tick, you will have solely Bio II, while the second global tick, you would have Bio II, Miasma and Bio.

So essentially what you gain from the opener would be 75 potency, + 2 GCDs that no longer are used to cast Miasma and Bio so lets say 2 Ruins for a total of 235 Potency.

That's still less damage then a Fester at 300 potency. This is assuming the skill is on GCD.

Now if it's off GCD, you possibly gain an additional Ruin which would then be...315 Potency. So it would have to be a skill that's not on the GCD to be possibly worth it assuming you can gain a third Ruin. The skill animation looks fairly instant though which means it would have to be used when the tank pulls and cant be pre-casted. Throw in another part like the fact that, If the skill (Tri-Disaster) doesn't do damage on application which it didn't seem to, the potency you get from casting Miasma (20), instantly beats it with a 320 vs 315 spread.

If it is on the GCD (perhaps even oGCD), then determining if it's worth using Tri-Disaster vs a third Fester will depend on how this Bahamut Trance works and how much DPS you can gain in the 10 seconds you shifted Aetherflow to get into this stance asap.

I think your ticks are off.

Assuming no spell speed (cause we're given to understand ticks and gcd will scale with it now? so it is the same relatively).

Previously you would do

[2.5] - Bio II apply
[5] - Miasma apply
[5.5] - Bio apply
[6+] - all 3 dots ticking

So we can generalize the amount of damage things do, by prorating the ticks till 6 seconds

Bio II does 3.5/3*35 = 40.83 pot
Miasma does 1/3*35 = 11.66 pot (ignoring miasma direct damage for now)
Bio does 0.5/3*40 = 6.66 pot

Total is roughly 59.16 pot

With the thingymajig, instead we get 2 full ticks of all 3 dots, for a total of (35+35+40)*2 = 220.

We also get 2 ruins for 380 total pot.

Subtracting the previous we get ~320 pot.

Even if miasma direct damage didn't apply we'd get 300 pot which is a wash.

Advantages:

1. Can reapply Bio during RS for a bigger boost than versus a buffed ruin (48 total vs 16 total bonus)
2. Saves us mana, though not necessarily that useful when you consider we Aetherflow all the mana back anyway, so not really a bonus.
3. Obviously good for add bane.
4. Quicker sflare application. Whether or not you precast this ends up saving you a bunch of gcds.
5. Aetherflow 10 sec quicker (since you don't need to wait for 3rd fester)

Disadvantages

1. We can't make fun of tri-disaster anymore for being useless.
2. Possibly not actually a dps gain - because as long as dots have full uptime, saving time applying dots ends up being a lower and lower actual dps increase.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

New Classic Opener - RS - X-POT - Tri-Disaster

<3 <3 <3

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It is also not sure it is worth use rs in the opener if you can do loads of damage with Bahamut trance. It is probably better use rs after you get full stack of Bahamut Aether then shoot your akh morns to your target with rs up.

Oh, I didn't know that 3D was going to be using Aetherflow and not just a CD and/or spell. That definitely changes things. (but TBH I was mostly messing around with the above statement since we don't fully know how it all will work)

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

I think your ticks are off.

Assuming no spell speed (cause we're given to understand ticks and gcd will scale with it now? so it is the same relatively).

Previously you would do

[2.5] - Bio II apply
[5] - Miasma apply
[5.5] - Bio apply
[6+] - all 3 dots ticking

So we can generalize the amount of damage things do, by prorating the ticks till 6 seconds

Bio II does 3.5/3*35 = 40.83 pot
Miasma does 1/3*35 = 11.66 pot (ignoring miasma direct damage for now)
Bio does 0.5/3*40 = 6.66 pot

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I'm still confused about the whole pro-rating dot ticks, but wouldn't you just pro-rate Bio 2 and the rest would always be up by the 2nd tick regardless?

Bio2 = 52.5 (17.5 + 35)
M = 35 + 20 for application
B = 40
Total: 147.5 + Aetherflow going to Fester = 447.5

That is actually my only concern regarding SMN for HW. BLM will be getting Astral/Umbral IV but there was no mention if SMN will be getting 4 stacks of Aetherflow instead of just 3.
If we get stuck with 3 while also having a new skill that requires a stack, I can see some foreseeable issues with that.
Logically though, we should get 4 Stacks of Aetherflow. At 20 we got 2, at 40 we got 3, at 60 we should get 4.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

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I read your math but I am not convinced. Largely it seems like you are looking at it from a GCD point of view and not the potency that you are getting on the tick.

Right between that Bio II application and that Miasma application is gonna be 1 server tick where Bio II is solely ticking for 35 potency.

The next server tick, you are very likely to catch both Miasma and Bio for a total of 110 (All three DoTs). More to the point if you factor in any kind of precast of Bio II.

Which means the only difference between Bio II -> Miasma -> Bio I + Fester vs Tri Disaster -> Ruin I -> Ruin I is 75 (ticks you gain from Miasma and Bio you gain on the first server tick) + 160 2 ruins = 235

235 doesn't beat a 300 potency Fester +20 application of Miasma to warrant the AF cost. You would have to at least get 3 Ruins to beat a Fester if we factored out the Miasma application potency. This is of course assuming Tri-D doesn't have some initial hitting potency as well as us needing to add at least three skills to the opener.

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Originally Posted by TraeSnow

Logically though, we should get 4 Stacks of Aetherflow. At 20 we got 2, at 40 we got 3, at 60 we should get 4.

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Thats exactly what I thought about Greased 4. :/

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Originally Posted by TraeSnow

That is actually my only concern regarding SMN for HW. BLM will be getting Astral/Umbral IV but there was no mention if SMN will be getting 4 stacks of Aetherflow instead of just 3.
If we get stuck with 3 while also having a new skill that requires a stack, I can see some foreseeable issues with that.
Logically though, we should get 4 Stacks of Aetherflow. At 20 we got 2, at 40 we got 3, at 60 we should get 4.

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Where you get that info blm is gonna get IV astral/umbral? I think they are gonna get fire 4 and blizz 4 but number of stack will stay same.

No one is getting enhanced current modes. No Astral Heat IV, no GL4, no Aetherflow 4 stacks, etc.

BLM is getting a new stance, similar to how MNK is getting Chakra and SMN is getting Bahamut stacks.

Yup. 3,0 is the official "YOU GET A STANCE, YOU GET A STANCE, EVERYONE GETS A STANCE" patch. We'll most probably see Rank 4 variants in 4.0.. Heuheu.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

stuff

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You say "very likely" etc, I say "find the average case and remove randomness from your model".

Essentially the prorate on Bio II means, there will ALWAYS be one tick, and a SLIGHT chance of 2 ticks.

Similarly, for miasma, there is a decent chance of 1 tick, but not guaranteed, which you already agree with.

When taking the average case, we can assign expected values to the damage, and the expected value is not "very likely" it is "average case", which means out of 100 bosses you'll maybe get 90% with 2 ticks and 10% with 1 tick, but the model already takes that into consideration.

I'm not sure what the deal is here.

Lets give another example, a simple one, with just 1 dot.

I cast my dot, then wait 4.5 seconds.

So basically you have

[0-2.5] - no dot
[2.5 - 7] - dot

Now how much damage did that dot do?

It has a chance of two ticks (if first tick is between 2.5 and 4 sec, or to be more precise if the first tick is between -0.5 and 1 sec, so that the second tick with dots is between 2.5 and 4 sec), and chance of 1 tick (if first tick is between 4 sec and 5.5 sec, or, to be more precise, if the first tick is between 1 and 2.5 second, so that the second tick with the dots comes up between 4 and 5.5 sec).

So instead of going, at 7 seconds, it has a 50% chance of 1 tick and 50% chance of 2, you say, okay, the time the dot is active is 7-2.5 = 4.5 seconds.

This is equivalent to an average case of 4.5/3 = 1.5 ticks, and we multiply damage. Will you ever get 1.5 ticks? NO. But you will get 1 tick 50% of the time and 2 ticks 50% of the time.

This is an appropriate method of finding expected value of dots when their application times do not sync up...otherwise you use terms like "very likely", and you have fuzzy math.

EDIT: I also want to clarify why I chose 6 seconds as the "stopping point". At 6 seconds you are guaranteed EXACTLY 2 ticks, no more, no less. So, we can guarantee 2 ticks for the tridisaster model. By also prorating to 6 seconds, we guarantee that our model of "ticks every 3 seconds" now syncs up, regardless of how we applied our dots, so we no longer have to prorate anything. We assume at that point onwards all dots are ticking for both models.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

No one is getting enhanced current modes. No Astral Heat IV, no GL4, no Aetherflow 4 stacks, etc.

BLM is getting a new stance, similar to how MNK is getting Chakra and SMN is getting Bahamut stacks.

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Yea, my bad I read it wrong. xD
Though still...am I the only one that feels like we are being limited more with getting more skills that require a stack from Aetherflow but still being stuck at 3 max?

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

So basically you have

[0-2.5] - no dot
[2.5 - 7] - dot

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Isn't this assuming 0 precasting? So literally, The tank pulls, THEN I decide to use Bio II?

When in actuality what I do, is let's say at 4 seconds before the mob is pulled, Im already popping RS + POT + Casting Bio II. So I mean unless by some terrible stroke of luck, I just missed the DoT tick by micro seconds, I would get a first tick in that 0 - 2.5 window a Bio II dot tick and then by roughly 4 - 5 seconds I have all 3 up.

I guess the difference between what I'm saying and what you're saying, largely seems when do you actually count 0 seconds.
When the encounter starts? or when the first DoT goes up.

I use the first DoT (which falls in that 0 - 2.5s window) and work with potency per sec while if I'm not mistaken, you are using when the encounter start time and looking at it from a potency per GCD.

I am not really talking about precasting here (if you're really into that, why not precast sflare > swiftcast > tri-disaster rotation?). I assume you know your high level play and am not going to make judgements on that XD Merely that your motivations are incorrect and your math is not solid.

I'm simply talking about the matter of prorating dots and why it makes sense mathematically.

Sure we can define the fight start at some given point, and shorten the dots there. These are two separate arguments though, you're talking about chances of catching a tick and I'm talking about how you can remove all randomness. You questioned my math and my precasting - I'm saying the former is rock solid, the latter we can certainly look at it your way and see if it is correct.

I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusion, only your motivations - thinks like unlucky and very likely imo have no place in models.

Anyway if we assume precasting and lets just say you get off Bio II at 0.5 seconds after pull, then it looks like this:

[0.5] - Bio II
[3.0] - Miasma
[3.5] - Bio
[5.5-6] - Swiftcast Sflare

We'll prorate everything to 6.5 sec cause thats how long it takes for the second ruin to pop out. Yes I know sflare has 0 chance of applying, so we will take that out of consideration for now.

Total damage is (6/3*35)[Bio II] + (3.5/3*35+20)[Miasma] + (3/3*40)[Bio] = 170.83

So if we assume precasting for tri-disaster it will look something like this. Bear in mind I am guessing at delays here, but I think they are reasonable.

[0.5] - Sflare
[1.5] - Swiftcast + Tri disaster
[4] - Ruin II
[6.5] - Ruin II

So for this we have (5/3*110)[DoTs] + (2*80)[Ruin II] + (2*25)[Sflare] = 393.3 + Tri-disaster upfront damage

So the difference is only 222.5 potency.

Tri-disaster would have to hit for 80+ potency to make it worthwhile. Unsure also if it will apply miasma direct damage, but it makes sense for it to not - because it will have its own potency, and applying auras is not contingent on direct damage.

It is interesting to note that this only results in slightly higher damage than simply precasting tri-disaster (or swiftcasting it). But it -does- result in higher damage, so its worthwhile if you know tank positioning. If you also know the positioning AND its not on the boss's current position, you could precast sflare for both cases and its pretty good.

Also to answer Judge's question about why not only prorate the first tick...well yes, that is essentially exactly what its doing.

Any tick that is equivalent to floor(duration/3) will basically mean a guaranteed tick. For example, prorating Bio II to 5 seconds results in 1 + 2/3 ticks...this is equivalent to only prorating the fractional tick and adding in the guaranteed one.

I think it will make sense once I get my simulator working, and we can see the differences in openers.

So apparently it might be a miss translation that 3D costs Aether. Which I hope to be true since I can't picture any situation where it would be good to use Aether like that other than
3D -> Bane

Yea I just read that too, would be great to have a cooldown (maybe 60 sec) instead of aether cost.

Also maybe we can get aetherdam 4 =DDDDDD

I think tanks are gonna love the idea if you open with tri disaster and fester without quelling once they have one shield lob into it XD.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

[1.5] - Swiftcast + Tri disaster

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What I dont understand is why you keep saying swift+tri. I mean everyone knows that any AF move is OGCD. Pretty sure its safe to say its going be a OGCD since it uses AF.

Lets hope for you guys it isnt tied to AF.

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Originally Posted by Hakmatic

What I dont understand is why you keep saying swift+tri. I mean everyone knows that any AF move is OGCD. Pretty sure its safe to say its going be a OGCD since it uses AF.

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You might be right.

https://youtu.be/L1wN30QV8y0?t=96

That first move is what I'd speculate to be Tri-Disaster and unless they used Swiftcast pre-video (highly doubtful) it is indeed instant cast.

Doesn't matter if it is or isn't, if its not then we just don't need to use swiftcast for it, thats all.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Doesn't matter if it is or isn't, if its not then we just don't need to use swiftcast for it, thats all.

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I'm also curious why you feel I can't have a precasted ShadowFlare down, and then actually pre cast a Bio II o.o
You can do both you know.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

I think tanks are gonna love the idea if you open with tri disaster and fester without quelling once they have one shield lob into it XD.

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That seems very dangerous :( . Would still be pretty nice if it just has a cd and isn't tied to AF.

Yeah. If indeed it is a CD skill.
RS B2 M B - 3D before RS falls may be an option as well. Can think of it as a free dot extension under buffs.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

asd

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If it cost no aetherflow it will become part of our singletarget dps rotatio and you need try find situations once all your 3 dots have really small duration left. Other words You need "sacrifice" your singletarget dps if you hold your tri-disaster for the add mechanic that is gonna spawn later. Thats why I prefer aetherflow system myself. I like the idea you should use tri disaster only if your opponent is clean of dots and you can choose when you use it and not every time it is out from the cd.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

If it cost no aetherflow it will become part of our singletarget dps rotatio and you need try find situations once all your 3 dots have really small duration left.
Other words You need "sacrifice" your singletarget dps if you hold your tri-disaster for the add mechanic that is gonna spawn later. Thats why I prefer aetherflow system myself. I like the idea you should use tri disaster only if your opponent is clean of dots and you can choose when you use it and not every time it is out from the cd.

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Like if it's no Aetherflow, it's gonna be amazing to use around just generally especially when like you have two DoTs at like lets say 5 seconds and another at like 1 second left fairly sure if you use it in a moment like that, it would be a DPS gain. If it uses AF though, then I think solely those moments where like something is gonna die so fast you cant Bane off of, is when you would use it. Perhaps also to re-dot up a mob when it finally comes back into play after going invincible and all your dots falling off.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Like if it's no Aetherflow, it's gonna be amazing to use around just generally especially when like you have two DoTs at like lets say 5 seconds and another at like 1 second left fairly sure if you use it in a moment like that, it would be a DPS gain.

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Waiting for that kind of situation is theoretically dps loss. You wanna use it every time skill is out from the cd. I have not calculated what would be most wise way use this kind of ability since it is not even important cause anything is not confirmed, but i think you should use it after next what ever dot is gonna fall of from your target after skill drop out from the cooldown so you can use it often as possible.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Waiting for that kind of situation is theoretically dps loss. You wanna use it every time skill is out from the cd. I have not calculated what would be most wise way use this kind of ability since it is not even important cause anything is not confirmed, but i think you should use it after next what ever dot is gonna fall of from your target after skill drop out from the cooldown so you can use it often as possible.

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Like clip all of your DoTs regardless of timers (assuming it's not DoTs that snapshotted some buff) to avoid burning a GCD that can be dedicated to let's say another ruin. That's very likely a gain assuming those are normal potency DoTs in play and it's just a oGCD to throw out without any AF cost. If you start clipping snapshotted DoTs though at higher timers when you have to refresh another DoT, idk how worth it it would be to not just burn the GCD.

Still refining my DPS on a Dummy before I try in real scenarios (I know, Echo, but I still want to be absolutely comfortable), but, should I ever be hardcasting Shadowflare? I only use Shadowflare when Swiftcast is up. I was able to obtain 527 on a dummy (Ifrit) without hardcasting Shadow flare.

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Originally Posted by Skeith-Adeline

Still refining my DPS on a Dummy before I try in real scenarios (I know, Echo, but I still want to be absolutely comfortable), but, should I ever be hardcasting Shadowflare? I only use Shadowflare when Swiftcast is up. I was able to obtain 527 on a dummy (Ifrit) without hardcasting Shadow flare.

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You should keep shadowflare 100% of time up(in case your target stand still and not moving around) just like other dots. Not matter do you have swiftcast or not.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Waiting for that kind of situation is theoretically dps loss. You wanna use it every time skill is out from the cd. I have not calculated what would be most wise way use this kind of ability since it is not even important cause anything is not confirmed, but i think you should use it after next what ever dot is gonna fall of from your target after skill drop out from the cooldown so you can use it often as possible.

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I think for any type of single target rotation, if 3D is on a CD and depending on which CD, that you would want to use it:
A: With Raging Strikes in this order - Hard Cast Dots B2, M, B and then use 3D for a full Refresh when Bio drops to extend your buffed dots.

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Like if it's no Aetherflow, it's gonna be amazing to use around just generally especially when like you have two DoTs at like lets say 5 seconds and another at like 1 second left fairly sure if you use it in a moment like that, it would be a DPS gain.

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Which is essentially this, as you would have this {B2 13s M 9s B 5} before you Refresh. Since if 3D is free, then why not while you're buffed, since it's higher Potency/s.
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Hard Casting DoTs VS 3D - If it's around a 235 Potency Loss (75 Dot Setup + 2 X Ruin) each time it's on CD and you don't use it you could pre-determine if it would be ideal to hold it for an AOE situation.

3D + Bane would be a 75 Potency Gain per target + Ruins. So withholding 3D 1 time in an effort to 3D Bane 2 or more Targets would be a DPS increase IMO.

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This would really streamline the decision making for SMN if that is the case.

So you can think of tri-disaster as saving you 3 GCDs over the course of 30 seconds.

Eyeballing dot casts, assuming 100% uptime, if you RS > bio II > miasma > bio, you'll have bio II up at 2.5, miasma at 5, and bio at 5.5

Assuming we will tridisaster at 19.5, you end up having

Bio II 17 duration, 13 clipped
Miasma 14.5 duration, 9.5 clipped
Bio 14 duration, 4 clipped

Purely looking at GCDs saved, you end up losing 13/30 + 9.5/24 + 4/18 = 1.05 GCDs of value.

Er, its an odd metric but essentially what it means is it saves you one less GCD than usual. So we now calculate whether thats worth it.

As opposed to letting dots run out, we gain

Bio II - 17 seconds
Miasma - 14.5 seconds
Bio - 14 seconds

So we get 17/3*35 + 14.5/3*35 + 14/3*40 = 554.16. So with 20% RS it will give us 110.8 potency. Since a normal GCD is roughly 80 potency (as we'd never skip dotting), this is worthwhile, with a net benefit of roughly 30 potency.

So the problem is, will it be more useful instead of we used it at the beginning of RS?

Or rather, is it better if we use it when dots are all ticking down?

So assuming instead that we merely want to save GCDs during RS (3 GCDs, to be exact), we'd actually only gain 2 (since 1 last GCD is used to hit a bio right at the end of RS).

2 GCDs of Ruin during that phase will end up being 32 potency greater (due to RS) so actually depending on dot timer sync ups this is the same as trying to do the whole tri-disaster at the end thing.

I'm not a fan of pre-overwriting dots. I will always wait until dots are <5 seconds and mostly sync'd up before reapplying.

RS provides 7-8 potency/3 seconds, while reapplying a dot early results in more than that.

Also sorry someone asked a question sometime yesterday but I hit post cap, whomp whomp.

Something I think people haven't thought about with Tri-Disaster is it's possibly free to cast if it's attached to Aetherflow or a CD. That might not mean much in the opener since you usually get all your MP back anyway but past that it could be a nice little MP bump up.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Something I think people haven't thought about with Tri-Disaster is it's possibly free to cast if it's attached to Aetherflow or a CD. That might not mean much in the opener since you usually get all your MP back anyway but past that it could be a nice little MP bump up.

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So what we can definitely agree on is:
1) if the skill is oGCD and it requires no AF use, that's a huge DPS gain in all scenarios.

2) If it's on GCD and requires no AF use, still a net gain in most scenarios. (We've never really seen a skill like this though. An Instant skill on GCD that has a longer recast time then the actual GCD and also uses no AF.)

3) If it's oGCD but uses an AF stack, depending on if we are looking at GCD or potency per second in relation to the server tick, it may or may not be better then a rotation that starts with Bio II precasted + third Fester.

4) If it's on GCD and uses an AF stack, this is likely worse then the previous option because you lose an extra ruin.

What I'm guessing you are referring to is situation 3. Using an extra AF is not giving you more MP just shifting the timer you burn stacks by 10 seconds once we get out of the opener which has AF off cd by the time you need to recover stacks.

Now situation 3 might actually be worth it but it will solely depend on this DreadWyrm stance and how much potency you get in the 10 seconds you got into it sooner.

Oh I was just referring to MP costs, that's all. IE in something like Ramuh Extreme, you will go OoM (or have to start cutting out Ruins) shortly after the add phase if you don't get trapped, but if you actively would use 3D you're saving yourself 400~ MP every so often that might alone justify it, potency be damned.

That's of course assuming MP management is gonna stay similar to what we have now. For all we know Dreadwyrm stance attacks are gonna be free to cast or something, it's truly a mystery.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Please remember that "snapshotting dots"...

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Well technically it's all about the packet loss, so squeezing the second fester is very much doable. I have already been able to squeeze it in multiple times especially when you are festering upon your third dot instantly. Although I still have this bad habit of not going for the third fester and energy draining instead, simply because I cannot bear the sight of AF not being on CD for 10 more seconds.

I m pretty sure tri disaster have no gcd because there is not single ability in this game that have gcd(if we do not count pet abilities) with cooldown based ability. If I can guess it will have 10 sec cd and will burn aetherflow like bane.

Applying all dots actually is never as huge of a dps gain as one might expect.

I anticipate unless there are extremely niche scenarios like needing to bane a group of adds that are far away from target, OR its cd is extremely short (I'm talking like 30-60 seconds here) it will amount to a fairly negligible increase in dps.

Assuming best case that it is an oGCD ability that doesn't use aether, then its damage contribution is 240/CD pps.

In general, SMN pps is roughly ~85pps or so (This may be wrong. I remember doing the math for this AGES ago...but I totally can't remember now and can't be bothered). + an additional ~30-35pps from pet.

So if you look at it that way...

30 sec CD = 8pps, 7% dps increase
60 sec CD = 4 pps, 3.4% dps increase
120 sec CD = 1.7% dps increase

etc etc. I mean its possibly -useful-...but its not very good guys. No matter how you look at it, the actual dps increase over its CD is minimal. Esp if it has an extremely long CD, it would be much better to use it for disconnects/add bursts rather than use it on CD for tiny dps increase (kind of like how monks use PB).

Skill/spellspeed increases DAMAGE of DoTs confirmed by PCGamesN Q&A. Apparently a decrease in DoT tick timing caused a lot of balancing issues. I can see why, Bards would be insane.