Enkindle and Tri-Disaster: Useless as they come.

I think it simplifies pet control having a dot class. So in that regard I think SE made a good choice having SCH/SMN stem off the acn base class.
Imagine trying to play BLM optimally while controlling a pet for those talking about SMN branching off THM.
Otherwise SMN would have to be a non pet class with summon type spells. So just a rehashed BLM with a spin.

Fester needs a buff imo it was a major reason I put my grimoire away. First of all a BLM does more damage than a SMN's fester just with fire and 3 astral stacks and the fire procs happen a lot more often than a SMN is able to use fester plus it hits harder. I agree OP even gearing my SMN fester still felt underwhelming.

Another thing that annoys me are the Soldiery/Poetic SMN books. It seems to be agreed that spellspeed is mostly useless for SMN, so why do we have spellspeed on our tomes? It seems to me like SE is trying to shove SMN's into BLM.

Otherwise, it would be nice if SMN could become closer to their normal depiction in the FF series. All hope piled onto the maintenance?

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Originally Posted by Kipih

Another thing that annoys me are the Soldiery/Poetic SMN books. It seems to be agreed that spellspeed is mostly useless for SMN, so why do we have spellspeed on our tomes? It seems to me like SE is trying to shove SMN's into BLM.

Otherwise, it would be nice if SMN could become closer to their normal depiction in the FF series. All hope piled onto the maintenance?

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To me it seems as though SMN was a rushed class (hence it being bundled up with SCH) and since there's only two dps classes that use INT Square just got lazy and made them share most of the same gear.

Tri-disaster = useless? I agree.

It wouldnt be so useless if this game did a better job of needing CC, but it doesnt.. so.

Enkidle = useless? Not on your life.

I think SE made Scholar and Arcanist 1st then rushed Summoner to get it into 2.0 that's why it feels like a Arcanist with Fester. I think to distinguish Summoner from Arcanis and Scholar SE should've stopped adding class abilities at 30 and just added Job abilities.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

I think it simplifies pet control having a dot class. So in that regard I think SE made a good choice having SCH/SMN stem off the acn base class.
Imagine trying to play BLM optimally while controlling a pet for those talking about SMN brancohing off THM.
Otherwise SMN would have to be a non pet class with summon type spells. So just a rehashed BLM with a spin.

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Tell that to the WoW Elementalist Shamman where the Player doesn't have abilities until their Elemental is summoned. Blizard balanced that class better than the Demonolgy Warlock in which the Summoner is based.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

I think it simplifies pet control having a dot class.
Imagine trying to play BLM optimally while controlling a pet for those talking about SMN branching off THM.

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I agree with u, thats why on many games SMNs actually dont have atacks but 1-3 weak ones but lots of pets buff, cc and ways to heal ur pet. (like SMN in L2- AiOn)

In a game with no CC need Dots were a good option. Still, for me, SE fails making most of the dmg output comming from the SMN and not from the egi, should be a 30% SMN / 70% egi balance.

Also agree SMN in FFXiV plays like a demonology w from WoW without fear.

PD: ppl not willing to rely on ur pet as main way to do dmg should never be smn on any game.
PD2: an stance (like cleric stance) may be able to change this in this game. SMN stance (reduce ur dmg 30% while increase ur egi dmg 60%, crit chance 10% SS 10% and movement speed 20%... something like that), also buffing pet skills.

I feel Summoner would 'feel' more like a summoner if we were more focused on our 'pets'. As it stand you kind of summon them.. occassionally throw out an ability or two but for the most part forget about them in favor os managing dots. It feels like smn should've been called necromancer and been gave zombies and skeletons for pets.

I think if they focused more on managing the pet and less on the other stuff, it might feel like the name suggest.

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Originally Posted by Havenae

I feel Summoner would 'feel' more like a summoner if we were more focused on our 'pets'. As it stand you kind of summon them.. occassionally throw out an ability or two but for the most part forget about them in favor os managing dots. It feels like smn should've been called necromancer and been gave zombies and skeletons for pets.

I think if they focused more on managing the pet and less on the other stuff, it might feel like the name suggest.

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You don't even really summon them. You summon a Pterodactyl, a chicken mc nugget and Ifrit's fetus basically.

I rather enjoyed Summoners in Lineage II. They began as almost entirely pet-focused with virtually all attack and utility tied to pet actions, and in a later incarnation had a series of fast-casting DoTs, a moderate-CD nuke, and a Fester-like ability that also removed the Marks upon casting.

It was a nice balance between having decorative pets and being crippled when your pets were disabled. The pet designs were also larger (average mob size) and more...imposing

FFXIV could take a page from that concept IMO.

Since SMNs have Tridisaster which functions the same as Blizzard 2, why not remove Blizzard 2 as cross class and let's say... bring back Thunder for more dots, no? SCHs can cross clas Aero, so I don't see why SMNs don't get THMs/BLMs Thunder?

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Originally Posted by rawker

Stuff...

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Kind of, it's a little bit of a stretch but Tridisaster is essentially a weaker long range version of blizzard 2. It doesn't make it any less useless. I'd consider casting tridisaster down there with casting miasma 2 on a single target with no contagion. Not worth the time taken from your skill priority and definitely not worth the mp.


As for getting thunder back. I don't think it would make much difference, unless fester would include it and even then the boost would still ignore other glaring issues with the job.

I honestly think the job needs to be severed from arc and sch entirely and redesigned from the ground up. But I know that'll never happen. So maybe one day they'll finish the job they rushed so they could add one more DPS class in a game that really didn't need more to begin with.

Summoner is a polarizing job because other jobs retain their classic Final Fantasy image based on the Final Fantasy Tactics series. The Summoner in FFXIV isn't in the image of a classic Final Fantasy Summoner it is a Summoner in Name Only.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Summoner is a polarizing job because other jobs retain their classic Final Fantasy image based on the Final Fantasy Tactics series. The Summoner in FFXIV isn't in the image of a classic Final Fantasy Summoner it is a Summoner in Name Only.

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I'm so thankful for this. I never used Summoner in FF Tactics cause they were so slow.

"Ok boys I'm going to cast Cyclops." ......Casting.......Casting.....Casting.....Casting.... "Ok, here it comes" ....Casting....Casting...."For real this time"

****CYCLOPS****RAWR*****

"Hey, where'd everyone go?"

Somewhere in a local tavern. "Hey guys, did we forget the summoner behind?"

"Why he no have Short Charge?"

LOL, classic summoner was another form of the typical caster. Rydia is the best example of this. Did you cast Meteo or Bahamut? Either way you did 9999 damage but with different spells.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

The Summoner in FFXIV isn't in the image of a classic Final Fantasy Summoner it is a Summoner in Name Only.

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The Summoner in this game is like DRG in FFXI except the pet does not die easily. You have very little to no interaction with your pet during any given battle. Hell at least in FFXI when DRG used a weapon skill or spell the pet combo-ed with that action based on what was used with several breath attacks, way more rewarding and cool. SMN pet does very little damage. It's nearly non-existent as the SMN was a viable DPS w/o pet pre-BLM buff.

The SMN class has very little to do with pet mastery, save the Lore that is behind it, but guess what who the hell cares about the lore of a boring class? I sure don't. Gameplay is WAY more important than lore. We have white knights all day for Egi appearance because of lore. We have white knights all day for DOTs because of lore. What is to stop SE from redesigning the lore (they already redesigned the entire game) if people REALLY do care so much?

Many people say the SMN is like WoW Warlock (Affliction) because of a couple of similar features, many say it's nothing like WoW Warlock (Affliction) because of a couple of differences; I say SMN is both, what SMN has Warlock has and more. In fact it's more boring than the class it's balanced off of because the difference in SMN and Warlock is that SMN DOES NOT have those features (which IMO still wouldn't be what I hoped to see in SMN).

And SE claims FFXIV DRG absolutely cannot have a pet nor will a 2nd job branch off of LNC to include a pet because SE says the player will be upset if the player damage is lowered to make up for the damage of the pet. Look at SMN that's exactly what it is; nothing more, nothing less. Should SMN's be upset their damage is lowered because there is a pet? Nay, I say SMN should be upset that their pet damage is lowered because of the player.

SMN is a super cool concept. In FFXI I never got around to leveling multiple classes because of how slow it was. I always envied SMN in FFXI, it looked so cool and versatile (that is coming from an avid RDM who did it all on 1 job with different gear sets/sub jobs: Heal, Support, Tank, Nuke, Solo, etc.)

I don't know if it is because SE rushed SMN and/or SCH, because it's too complicated to balance 2 jobs off 1 class, or because SE doesn't understand the importance of SMN to not only the brand of Final Fantasy but as a staple of the MOST PROMINENT PET CLASS/JOB of not only MMOs but EVERY RPG to date EVER!

The difference between Black Mage and Summoner is the way they use magic their spells generally are attack spells with some effect spells. Summoners have a natural affinity for Black Magic they can cast every Black Mage spell including meteor. Summoners can also call Summoned Monsters that are much more powerful Black Magic. In FFXIV we got a Summoner in name only its just an Arcanist with Fester that uses Green Magic which no Summoner in the history of Final Fantasy uses. The Summoner was either a Black Mage/Elementalist or a White Mage that could use Summoning Magic and Call Summoned Monsters.

omg look ANOTHER SMN crying thread. i heard there's a new smn move coming. it gathers the tears of all smns server wide and hit for zero damage.

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Originally Posted by OmegaNovaios

Should SMN's be upset their damage is lowered because there is a pet? Nay, I say SMN should be upset that their pet damage is lowered because of the player.

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What-if SE had made it where SMN debuff the enemy in a way that your pet hits that enemy harder? Basically the Summoner is 30% of the dps and the your pet is 50%~70% of the dps, or is the player base mental capacity not strong enough to handle it. So the play style of Smn has to be brought down to toddler level.

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Originally Posted by Bigcat9715

What-if SE had made it where SMN debuff the enemy in a way that your pet hits that enemy harder? Basically the Summoner is 30% of the dps and the your pet is 50%~70% of the dps, or is the player base mental capacity not strong enough to handle it. So the play style of Smn has to be brought down to toddler level.

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That's how DoT classes are suppose to work anyway. DoTs should be secondary doing 30% of the damage while the Pet does 70% of the damage.

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Originally Posted by Ryu_Hayabusaa

omg look ANOTHER SMN crying thread. i heard there's a new smn move coming. it gathers the tears of all smns server wide and hit for zero damage.

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Lets be real, is it affected by contagion? If not I don't want it.

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Originally Posted by Bigcat9715

What-if SE had made it where SMN debuff the enemy in a way that your pet hits that enemy harder? Basically the Summoner is 30% of the dps and the your pet is 50%~70% of the dps, or is the player base mental capacity not strong enough to handle it. So the play style of Smn has to be brought down to toddler level.

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Not saying I wouldn't want it to work like this, it would certainly be cool to control such a powerful pet - but said pets die to certain mechanics too easily without extreme micro management and even with micromanagement it can still be hard to keep them out of harms way. The loss of 50%-70% of your primary DPS every time a pet dies would be disastrous.

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Originally Posted by zeroaru

Lets be real, is it affected by contagion? If not I don't want it.


Not saying I wouldn't want it to work like this, it would certainly be cool to control such a powerful pet - but said pets die to certain mechanics too easily without extreme micro management and even with micromanagement it can still be hard to keep them out of harms way. The loss of 50%-70% of your primary DPS every time a pet dies would be disastrous.

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I'm pretty sure that if your pet is 50%~70% of your overall dps SE would make it harder for them to die, and probably add a few more pet healing abilities to your arsenal.

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Originally Posted by Ryu_Hayabusaa

omg look ANOTHER SMN crying thread. i heard there's a new smn move coming. it gathers the tears of all smns server wide and hit for zero damage.

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Oh look another forum post by someone who has nothing constructive to add, so you're just as bad as 'another smn crying thread'. W2G, and thanks for adding toxicity to the community! you win teh internets for a day


ANYWAY...

I'm in agreement this job ultimately feels nothing like being a summoner in any FF game. No that isn't a good thing. Mind you I'm not to say that SE can't alter their own definition of how any iconic class from their brand should play, (and yes it is iconic, right up there with dragoon and dark knights) but this much? I also know there are people around white knighting the job (btw white knighting is actually detrimental to ANY MMO, it hinders progress) is fine, that theres nothing wrong, go play something else. The reason I even bothered to quote this simpleton back there is to prove the point that if there have been so many post that people are beginning to say shit like this. Then it's pretty clear that there is a problem.

I don't have a problem being a dot class. What I have a problem with is the image and the lack of any real connection to our egi. Like I said before, you kind of just summon them and let them go. You can micro manage their abilities but even then its just like casting another spell, there's no real impact from them, nothing that really reminds us that they're there. We're supposed to be summoners! We control these fragments of the amazing primals that take a countless number of their followers to summon. Yet we have 23 spells and only 3 of them do any kind of interaction with our pet, and of course the 3 we use to summon them. A lot of this is a failure of the class->job system, and that failure is kind of unique to this job, mostly because the job also stems from the only class that has two jobs. So we have to share 18 of those 23 spells. Summoner and Scholar are the only jobs that have to do this. But if you look at Scholar, they're fine. That job is very well defined and stands out in stark contrast against it's parent class. Not summoner though, we basically get a reskin +1 on pets and fester. Oh and we have shit for cross class options outside of swiftcast and raging strikes. Thats really the only difference between Arcanist and Summoner. It is NOT this way with other Jobs and their respective classes. So why should we settle for it to be okay with Summoners?

But we're not going to get a redesign, we're not going to be split off of arcanist, not unless the class system goes away entirely which I seriously doubt will ever happen, despite it actually being a good idea for the game as a whole. So then what can we ask for to compensate? More damage? So we can continue to compete with the other disproportionate number of DPS classes and jobs in this game? Or could we ask for something different?

There exists in this job, a unique opportunity that has existed in every rendition of summoner in Final Fantasy games. Because we work on summons (or at least we should -_-) we have the capability to be one of the most versatile jobs in the game. Because if you look at the list of summons that have been possible throughout this brand's lifespan, you'll see that it's not all about doing damage. It's about amazing buffs, killer debuffs, heals, immunity to things, yes mega-damage, but there are healers on that list and tanks and various support capable summons. This job could be about more than just making sure we do as much damage or similar damage to a Black Mage. It could be about giving unique party and raid-wide buffs. Debuffing the enemy until he wants to run away and hide in a hole somewhere. It could be about helping the healer out when they're in a pinch, or regenerating everyones mp/tp/whatever back to full, maybe for so many seconds for a last ditch effort.

There's a lot of possibilities here but everyone just seems to be content with, "Durr-dee-durr wanna do more damage, derp!" Even though these possibilities could set the job apart from just being another dps to choose from.

Just sayin...

I think it goes without saying that the iconic image of the Summoner and it's Summons have been represented rather poorly in ARR. The game play focus of the Summoner needs to be on the Egi, not these D.O.T rotations that we have to basically rinse and repeat in an endless cycle until the duty is over, with the Egi just fading into the background as a tacked on gimmick.

It's clear there is a problem that needs to be addressed. I also think it would be possible to totally overhaul how the Summoner works and even remove the D.O.T focused rotations all together. Perhaps in order to give the Egi a larger focus, the Summoner's personal abilities that are available to them should be dictated by the Egi that is currently summoned. So if Ifrit is in play then the Summoner will gain Fire based abilities, Titan earth based abilities, and Garuda wind based abilities. The current D.O.T based play style could then be repatriated for a new job, such as Beastmaster.

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Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron

I think it goes without saying that the iconic image of the Summoner and it's Summons have been represented rather poorly in ARR. The game play focus of the Summoner needs to be on the Egi, not these D.O.T rotations that we have to basically rinse and repeat in an endless cycle until the duty is over, with the Egi just fading into the background as a tacked on gimmick. It's clear there is a problem that needs to be addressed. I also think it would be possible to totally overhaul how the Summoner works and even remove the D.O.T focused rotations all together. Perhaps in order to give the Egi a larger focus, the Summoner's personal abilities that are available to them should be dictated by the Egi that is currently summoned. So if Ifrit is in play then the Summoner will gain Fire based abilities, Titan earth based abilities, and Garuda wind based abilities. The current D.O.T based play style could then be repatriated for a new job, such as Beastmaster.

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The current Dot based play style will repatriate well with a Puppetmaster since they summon undead pets. The play style of Summoner you mentioned is more akin to an Elementalist.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

The current Dot based play style will repatriate well with a Puppetmaster since they summon undead pets. The play style of Summoner you mentioned is more akin to an Elementalist.

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I think a play style more like an Elementalist would suit the Summoner well though, even if it was still DoT based. The lore of the Summoner makes it very similar to an Elementalist so I think it's play style should definitely reflect that more, using the Egi as the focal point.

The Elementalist lore and Summoner lore match up perfectly with the exception of a few words changed. Elementalist lore- Elementalist channels the Planar Elements and shape them into physical form called Elementals
Summoner lore- Summoners harness the Energy of the Primals and shape them into biddable Avatars called Egis.
So there is no reason why SE shouldn't make Summoner more in line with Elementalist with the Egis as the focal point. Out of the 23 abilities only 3 abilities interact with the Pet and 18 abilities we share with the Scholar but the Scholar is more developed. If most of our abilities were to correspond to the Pet it would go along way with making Summoner more complete.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

So there is no reason why SE shouldn't make Summoner more in line with Elementalist with the Egis as the focal point. Out of the 23 abilities only 3 abilities interact with the Pet and 18 abilities we share with the Scholar but the Scholar is more developed. If most of our abilities were to correspond to the Pet it would go along way with making Summoner more complete.

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Perhaps the new Summoner abilities in Heavensward and it's coming patches will work to make their abilities more suitable to the lore. Maybe we will see some elemental DoTs added and others that bring more of a focus to the Egi. After all not all the Summoners new skills can be personal abilities, otherwise whats the use in the Egi? I trust SE will work on a way to give the Egi more of the limelight.

I'm just hoping thunder will return in the form of a DoT ability for Ramuh egi, I miss it.

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Originally Posted by HexWeaver

I'm just hoping thunder will return in the forum of a DoT ability for Ramuh egi, I miss it.

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Yeah I hardly use Blizzard, at least with Thunder I could weave it into my standard DoT rotation.