Seriously SE???

Honestly, I'm more surprised about the fact that people are surprised about the price. I played FFXI for 7 years and this is what expansions cost. Well except for the later ones, and the mini-expansion packs.

Besides, I already starting saving for this expansion pack in December and did a safe over-estimate of 70$. Should be done saving before it is released.

Anyway..you do realize it's like getting a new game, right? Like, the story of your current game will end, and you are sort of finished, like you are in other games. Then you buy the sequel. It's like buying... idk.. Mass Effect 2.

It's really a value based question. I personally have no issue doling out $40 for the expansion. I would most likely pay more to be honest (not that I'm advocating that). $40 is more than worth it to me. I will have more fun and get much more enjoyment out of the expansion that just about any other $40 I could spend.

If you do not feel it is worth a $40 investment then by all means, let SE know with your wallet. However, I believe if you do the math, it is worth far more.

being a MMO player for 15 years, $40 is exactly what I expected an xpac would be. It's amazing they are including content like Gold Saucer for free where most others would have saved that for xpac sales.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

Vs COP which i believe had every mission and story on it from day one.

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CoP did not have all story missions out on day 1, they had the first 2 chapters out of 8 total. The rest were added in subsequent patches, the final story line mission was added over a year later. CoP had no new level cap, no new jobs, just new areas and story missions and a handfull new new items mostly lower lvl items for CoP level capped areas. So we are actually getting a lot more in Heavensward, with a new race, 3 new jobs, and storyline missions, new areas and flying mounts.

I say for those who don't like the price just wait a few weeks, I am sure there will be some sort of deals floating around for price drops.

Of course you may lose some ground in the game but I am sure you'll cope.

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It's like buying... idk.. Mass Effect 2.

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Except I pay once and then I can play whenever I want. For a game with a sub, 40 is way too much.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

Except I pay once and then I can play whenever I want. For a game with a sub, 40 is way too much.

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Well, there IS an easy solution for you if that is too much...

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Originally Posted by Kat_Manx

Well, there IS an easy solution for you if that is too much...

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It's what I plan to do.

People seem to forget, you are paying not only for new content, but for first dibs,/access to new content. Treat this like a new book or a new movie. When a new book gets released, if its really good, its released in Hardback. Book is probably around 24.99-27.99. A few months later, you get same book, but in paperback for like 7.99. When the next book in the series comes out, you pay full price. Now, yes, some of us got the game at a cheaper price because it was reworked. It doesn't mean you get that price every time. You pay to be included with everyone else for using product as soon as its released.

Now $40 isn't bad. We are practically getting a new game with the commitment of adding patches and new stuff until next expansion. Look at it like this...You are paying for an expansion that's really a "sequel" that also gets you unlimited DLC until next "expansion". You don't get that from non-mmo's. We buy games and buy all sequels to them but we don't get much in between sequel releases. Just think of this game as one big sequel.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

Because we understand that content is expensive.

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But is it really expensive enough to justify the subscription fee, the cost of retainers, the overpriced reskins and nicknacks, content that could otherwise be won, various services like fantasia and server transfers, weddings, special edition upgrades, and expansion packs that cost more than the game itself from a company with many various sources of revenue?

It's not so much the price of the expansion pack itself, as costly as I think it is. It's that they do it on top of the mounting pile of financial mousetraps that have crept their way into this game and the industry as a whole. It's getting rarer and rarer to buy or subscribe to complete games anymore and it's very depressing and frustrating to see people offer little to no resistance or protest.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

Except I pay once and then I can play whenever I want. For a game with a sub, 40 is way too much.

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Yes, you can play as much as you want. tell me, when was the last time you played Mass effect 2? does the story change since last you played? did they add any new characters? Do you still get patches and such? But wait....when Mass Effect 3 came out, how much did you pay? 60 dollars? for a game with no continuation to the story once you beat it. Did they add a new area a year after it released? You get more for this type of game. SE didn't have to give us new jobs in a free patch. They were within their right to give us nothing and make us pay for all new content. Gold saucer? they don't have to give it to us for free. They can make us pay for it. And before you mention subs, it only gives us access to server, nothing more.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

But is it really expensive enough to justify...

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Depends on you.
If you don't like it, you have an option to not pay for it.

Thing is, more people will pay for the expansion then sleipnir. And more work went into it.
Everything else is there to get some extra money to keep the game profitable.
It's a business.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

This isn't about me. It's about the industry as a whole and its relationship with its customers.
Simply abstaining from purchase tells them nothing when they can just rely on the whales to support their decisions. And those that don't just get screwed over time and time again.

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This is the way the industry works. Due to inflation, increased costs, and the need by players for new content, there needs to be extra cash flow. P2P MMOs have averaged about $15 a month for the past 10 years, despite inflation, rising costs, an economic recession, rising demands for "new stuff" from the playerbase. They need more cash flow to stay afloat. Expansions have always been part of this. Someone a few years back did the math and suggested we should be paying $20 or more a month for P2P MMOs adjusting for inflation and technology costs going up.
Your monthly fee is not enough. Either deal with that, or quit. This genre is expensive.
We're not "getting screwed" otherwise the entire industry has been screwing us for 20 years, and someone would have come up with a better way by now. They haven't.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

Everything they've put in the game (and things that have not) has already been paid in advance.

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Thus you're paying for the NEXT round of content.

they officially announced the price? I don't see it on lodestone

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Originally Posted by kyuven

Depends on you.
If you don't like it, you have an option to not pay for it.

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This isn't about me. It's about the industry as a whole and its relationship with its customers.
Simply abstaining from purchase tells them nothing when they can just rely on the whales to support their decisions. And those that don't just get screwed over time and time again.

Then why aren't you doing something about it?

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Originally Posted by QiLymePye

60 dollars? for a game with no continuation to the story once you beat it. Did they add a new area a year after it released?

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60€ for a game that takes me more than 2 months to fully enjoy vs 40€ of expansion + 30€ for 2 months of sub. Yeah, I get more with Mass Effect. Hence why I'm waiting until it gets to a more reasonable price like I did with 2.0.

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SE didn't have to give us new jobs in a free patch. They were within their right to give us nothing and make us pay for all new content. Gold saucer? they don't have to give it to us for free. They can make us pay for it. And before you mention subs, it only gives us access to server, nothing more.

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This is such a non-argument. Yes they did have to give us something in return and everyone knows that regardelss of what the ToS says, or no one would have stayed subbed for a year. Let's not start with this: I have nothing to be grateful for and I am given anything for free. Everything they've put in the game (and things that have not) has already been paid in advance.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

It's not so much the price of the expansion pack itself, as costly as I think it is. It's that they do it on top of the mounting pile of financial mousetraps that have crept their way into this game and the industry as a whole. It's getting rarer and rarer to buy or subscribe to complete games anymore and it's very depressing and frustrating to see people offer little to no resistance or protest.

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it feels like you are comparing this game (an mmo) to other games(going to use destiny as an example). while both did not ship complete(subjective in the case of 14 as mmos are games that grow and have new things made all the time, not held back and then made dlc.) its wrong to say they are doing the same thing.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Then why aren't you doing something about it?

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What can I do but protest with as much calm reason as I can muster, and remind people that they don't need to bow down and hand over their wallets to support the acts of an industry that's very quickly losing control of the cost and size of their projects?

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

it feels like you are comparing this game (an mmo) to other games(going to use destiny as an example). while both did not ship complete(subjective in the case of 14 as mmos are games that grow and have new things made all the time, not held back and then made dlc.) its wrong to say they are doing the same thing.

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Everything I listed comes from this game.

The industry only works this way because we let them. We've let a minority of frivolous spenders dictate how the industry treats all of us.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

60€ for a game that takes me more than 2 months to fully enjoy vs 40€ of expansion + 30€ for 2 months of sub. Yeah, I get more with Mass Effect. Hence why I'm waiting until it gets to a more reasonable price like I did with 2.0.
.

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What?! you get more for mass effect? did you just say playing a game for 2 months?! look at your own words. Mass effect was awesome! I crushed it. But after that, it was nothing. Yeah you had a little multiplayer, but after main story/campaign...thats it. Be real man, would you pay a subscription for mass effect right now as is? No. So why even compare it to this game. And how long have you been subbed for? you say no one would be subbed more than a year if it didn't offer you anything, you are still here, yet you are complaining about this game like you have been robbed. How old are you?

I remember games being 80 dollars 20 years ago! and you are complaining about the expansion being 40 dollars. deal with it. I've paid 40 for FFXI expansion..years ago. What do you want? free downloads for life of subscription? The point is that if the expansion is $40, its worth it, because you are getting a new game, just like when you dropped 60 for mass effect 1, 2, and 3--180 dollar value that you are not even playing right now.

ITT: People who don't realize they were are consumers who pay for a product and think that SE owes us 'nothing.' Even if we go under the premise that we are not paying for updates, simply servers/service to the game as is, we are still getting screwed considering the numerous issues with servers, housing space, etc.

While I don't think Heavensward should be free, $40 seems a bit much considering the base game is $30. Particularly considering that they plan on an annual release cycle.

I really don't want to dig into this issue, it's absolutely asinine to try to compare to things like Mass Effect. Last I checked, Mass Effect was a single player experience with a finite end. To answer the rhetorical question though, if ME were to receive regular updates that continued the story? Sure. I might consider a sub for it. It would have to be worth it though. That said, it's particularly ironic because the sheer number of updates that were done to ME3's multiplayer is astounding, considering all of them were free.

The single player games also frequently go on sale, I personally picked up ME1/2/3 for $20 or less each. Just... everything about that comparison is ridiculous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV-u5tvQC34

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Originally Posted by Phai

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV-u5tvQC34

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Okay. This is freaky. I was just watching that. Then I saw your link and was like "There's no way" and sure enough there it is.

Look, clearly people just don't know how MMORPG's and/or expansion packs work. This is around the same price and works the same way as every Pay-to-Play MMORPG I have ever heard of. I don't know if people complaining here come from Free-to-Play games or if this is their first MMORPG ever but just... ugh. You know? Ugh.

The entitlement.. it's palpable.

Going to pry my eyes away from this thread now before my brain melts. xD

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Originally Posted by Gramul

I get that. But my question is, why have we allowed it? Why are we okay with companies charging us more and more for less and less?

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What do you mean less?

3 New Jobs (MORE than ARR if I remember correctly)
1 New Race
Entire scenario on the scale of 2.0, if not larger.
2 new Primal fights, one with a creature never before seen in FF, made specifically for XIV.
Airships. The ability to build them, and have personal airships. This is a huge addition.
Flight, and different methods of exploration.
1 New City State, possibly more?
Like 2 more Beast Tribes if I'm not mistaken? I'd imagine there will be content involving this.
A 10 level cap increase, with many things we've not yet even learned about what comes with it.
They said to expect about as many dungeons that were on 2.0 launch, which is crazy to do from scratch. Some of the dungeons we had on 2.0 were just revamped old ones.

There's probably a ton I'm forgetting about, but that list already... for something that's only 40 bucks, is pretty great. Jumping in at the base level, you'd be paying like 20 bucks for ARR, and 40 for Heavensward. 60 dollars, which is comparable to any full release game today. Most games we have right now give you like, 30-50 hours of baseline enjoyment, with some games offering multiplayer experiences for replay value that extends into maybe 300-500 hours before you're pretty sick of it. MMO's give you at least 100 hours or more of baseline enjoyment, just capping one character and learning the game. That's not even considering you go into crafting, coil, leveling any more than one Job (which you most certainly will for cross-class) etc etc.

I'm having troubles seeing where there's anything to complain about. 'We' aren't okay with companies charging more and more for less and less. 'People' are increasingly more and more ready to make a big issue out of things because we're given a bigger platform to do so than before. Why do we allow them to charge us 15 dollars every month to play a game on their servers? Why do we allow them to put a Cash Shop in the game? Why do our characters hair clip with things? Why can't we have everything for free? Like... if things were how everyone on THIS forum wanted it to be, the game wouldn't be up and running, because SE wouldn't be funding them to do it.

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And how long have you been subbed for? you say no one would be subbed more than a year if it didn't offer you anything, you are still here, yet you are complaining about this game like you have been robbed. How old are you?

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Wtf? I didn't say anything like that. You're not making any sense.

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Thus you're paying for the NEXT round of content.

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I... know!? What does this even mean?

By less, I'm talking more about things like vanity DLC's where you're expected to pay comparatively remarkable amounts for not even a fraction of the game.
I've never played a game that asks for so much money from me before and I am not someone who spends off the cuff.

To me, it's remarkable how willing people are to give into the idea when I've heard so much complaints about other companies doing the same or less. Games I usually avoid like the plague.

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Originally Posted by Phai

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV-u5tvQC34

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That's some funny shit!
+1

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Originally Posted by Gramul

By less, I'm talking more about things like vanity DLC's where you're expected to pay comparatively remarkable amounts for not even a fraction of the game.
I've never played a game that asks for so much money from me before and I am not someone who spends off the cuff.

To me, it's remarkable how willing people are to give into the idea when I've heard so much complaints about other companies doing the same or less. Games I usually avoid like the plague.

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I don't know how this applies to expansions. Expansions (and Heavensward definitely is) are typically the size of the base game at the very least, if not more. Or, they add a ridiculous amount of depth, items, and systems to play around with. Or maybe it does all of that. It's not vanity, it adds substantial depth to gameplay. I can't speak on Heavensward yet, but the simple addition of 3 Jobs and a level cap increase is sure to mix things up in a big way.

As for 'giving in' to the practice. People here 'give into' (I hardly think this is an appropriate phrase) the practice because it's not a big deal, and it's commonplace. It's like... part of the territory, if that makes any sense. It's the same concept that playing a F2P MMO almost certainly comes with the caveat of needing to empty your bank account to be any good at it. It's the balance of the MMO genre right now.

F2P have massive-scale Cash Shops with much more than just vanity purchases, and generally have much wider gaps in content updates. Non-quality updates, poorly managed, and paying to win. P2P games have (now) low scale, vanity based Cash Shops, with sub fees, and expansion costs. The payoff is higher quality content, with more rigid and swift updates, and a better managed game (comparative to a F2P, or most other MMO's). And if I'm going to be honest, in the MMO genre right now, your money is way safer, and less stressed in a P2P scenario.

Go talk to people who played Maplestory, and literally spent thousands of dollars in short time frames just to compete at the end-game level. There's literally items that are sold on paypal for hundreds of dollars in that game. Or talk to people who played Dungeon Fighter Online for years, and sunk money into that game just for it to be shut down, losing all of their money and hours in the process. Or go play 1 of many MMO's that have 0 community, 0 updates, and no kind of quality content.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

By less, I'm talking more about things like vanity DLC's where you're expected to pay comparatively remarkable amounts for not even a fraction of the game.

To me, it's remarkable how willing people are to give into the idea when I've heard so much complaints about other companies doing the same or less. Games I usually avoid like the plague.

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>Vanity
>DLC

We're talking about expansions for MMOs here. In actuality, when 2.0 launched, it had a complete story, and then new elements added into the game were woven into the story in later patches. But saying that you're being pillaged by Square Enix for having all these optional features that have zero impact on gameplay is ridiculous. Video games have come a long way in 20 years, and yes, production costs have become a problem because games have become more graphically intense and demanded for sequels.

Here's some reading material on the subject:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/econo...st-explains-15

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Originally Posted by Gramul

It's the fact that in spite of all these extra costs, they still feel the need to charge an expansion pack more than the base cost of the game itself. Where is the line actually drawn?

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Just because the value of the initial game has depreciated, does not mean that the addition of an equivalent content amount automatically depreciates as well.

The initial cost of 1.0 was $50.00 USD for standard, and whenever it was basically re-released as A Realm Reborn(2.0), it was $30, ($40 for PS3), because it wasn't really new content and they realized how much they had screwed up with 1.0. There was actually a period during 1.0 where they stopped charging people to play because of how poorly it was doing and even when the tsunami hit, they reimbursed players for their servers being offline.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2010/06...pricing-model/

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Originally Posted by Nominous

I don't know how this applies to expansions. Expansions (and Heavensward definitely is) are typically the size of the base game at the very least, if not more. Or, they add a ridiculous amount of depth, items, and systems to play around with. Or maybe it does all of that.

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It's the fact that in spite of all these extra costs, they still feel the need to charge an expansion pack more than the base cost of the game itself. Where is the line actually drawn?

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Just because the value of the game has depreciated, does not mean that the addition of content amount equivalent automatically depreciates as well.

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Considering the expansion uses the expansion uses the original game as a core base, I'd be inclined to disagree.

The funny thing about people complaining about the price of games: when you take inflation into account, the prices of games have become cheaper not more expensive.

Gamers want more and more from each game while paying less and less, all the while development costs have skyrocketed. Yes, it is true that the fact that the market is much larger these days helps, and more units are sold, helps offset the develpment costs, but paid DLC and Cash Shops in MMO's have become important for games to generate a profit. It sucks, but that's life for you.

And yes, it is true that there are companies out there releasing free additional content (Blizzard and CD Projekt ReD for example), but not all companies have the luxury to do that.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

It's the fact that in spite of all these extra costs, they still feel the need to charge an expansion pack more than the base cost of the game itself. Where is the line actually drawn?

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This isn't really a fair comparison though. You can't just pretend that FFXIV doesn't have a history. 1.0 was a true disaster that earned FFXIV a terrible reputation. To relaunch the game they needed to get past 1.0's terrible reputation, hence the small entry fee. Now that people know that 2.0 is a whole different beast, prices go back to normal.

Oh dear people taking retail Game stores as official price tagging. Considering they have not even given us a release date for 3.0 why are people so gullible. I will wait for the Heavensward site to be updated and to buy from the SE store.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

It's the fact that in spite of all these extra costs, they still feel the need to charge an expansion pack more than the base cost of the game itself. Where is the line actually drawn?

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The line is drawn when you realize that the game was 40 dollars for PS3, and that the expansion was likely to be the same price. When you realize the only reason the PC version was 30 was because 1.0 got lowered to what... 20 dollars because of how poorly it was received?

All things considered, if all versions were released at the same time, bar the poor reception, it would have been the same price across the board, and definitely not 30 dollars.

The extra costs? You mean the optional things that nobody actually needs? I mean, maybe just maybe the extra retainers. I've been playing since 2.0 launch and I've never once needed more inventory space than currently available. I don't need the vanity stuff in cash shop, but if I did want it, what's a few bucks to me if I'm paying 15 monthly? To exaggerate, I could find the money to pay for extra retainers or optional 'vanity' on the ground.

There's no reason to treat MMO's different than any other industry. What can be monetized, will be monetized. If you have a problem with that, take that up with God or something, because that's not just gaming, that's literally everything, ever. It isn't changing any time soon, and if it were, it'd need a big movement with tons of big names, and radical influence behind it.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

It's the fact that in spite of all these extra costs, they still feel the need to charge an expansion pack more than the base cost of the game itself. Where is the line actually drawn?

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Ok I've been trying to avoid this thread because to me (as mmo player since EQ beta) this price is actually cheaper than they were during EQ (expac's were 60 then)


$40 is industry standard for expansions, in any mmo. What extra costs are you talking about? the OPTIONAL retainers? OPTIONAL Fantasia? OPTIONAL vanity cash shop?

You talking about the monthly sub? again... industry standard for ANY mmo. Actually ARR's monthly sub is cheaper than other mmo's. I'm confused here gramul, what is it you are talking about??

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

Oh dear people taking retail Game stores as official price tagging. Considering they have not even given us a release date for 3.0 why are people so gullible. I will wait for the Heavensward site to be updated and to buy from the SE store.

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It actually was on the SE store this morning, I seen it myself but has since disappeared from there also.

I know I'm laying on the passions thickly, but lately this industry and its fans have pushed me further and further into frustration. I've not bought an expansion for a game in a long tome and seeing it be double my expected cost pushed me over the edge.

Games have gotten so bloated and mismanaged that last year, we where met with broke.n release after broken release, and people still handed companies their hard earned money. Kiskstarted games are abandoned, people are still preordering games, pay to not wait has become a viable genre, game journalism has become an insane carnival of blame on all sides, people eagerly await a 5 hour long B movie reject of a game with 2 hours of cutscenes, content that would have been fun unlockables are now stuck behind paywalls. It's insanity. Pure diesel powered insanity.

If this is "just how it is" there is a major problem.

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Originally Posted by Niqote

*stares*orz ARR CE was $120 here...

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Unfortunately Australia's import/export laws will ensure the expansion will also be outrageously overpriced.

I mean we're getting a whole lots of stuff in this expansion, all in one setting...
Seems fine to me. Try and save up until then, you have plenty of of time to do so.
We still dunno the true price but that looks around the ball park anything higher
I'll be kinda irritated lol.

*stares*orz ARR CE was $120 here...

Actually ... in recent years I have not pre ordered anything... always waited for release + reviews and if its badly reviewed I forget about it (Which happens more and more often o_o).

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Originally Posted by Gramul

If this is "just how it is" there is a major problem.

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I understand the frustration. This in particular is a small problem in the bigger picture of what you seem to be annoyed with.

All of the stuff you mentioned is just a part of gaming in the course of natural evolution. The internet/information generation changed a lot of things, and it changed a lot in gaming as well, arguably not for the better. It changed every form of entertainment. Music, Movies, Art, Novels, almost everything you can think of. With information so readily available, the issues that you mentioned were bound to come up. Issues that would have never been the spotlight of the community, were made big deals because it's immortalized on the internet. Gaming Journalism became so big that it made the idea of print magazines almost inefficient or obsolete in terms of getting information. Pirating became rampant. All sorts of 'bad' things.

All the other stuff is just like I said, how the world is, not gaming. If you haven't noticed by now, everything around you works on the same principles. We're nickled and dimed wherever we can be, because that's how businesses work. There's always a new trinket or new feature you can add to something for extra (DLC ideas), there's always 'optional' bonuses you can add to existing services (HBO/SHOtime, HD for cable, warranties for things, the list goes on). There's always overcharging for things that should be cheap. Stuff that you buy isn't always what's promised, sometimes it's bugged or defective.

For me, this is why I can cope with gaming being the way it is now. It's just kind of taking it's natural course of changes. Until there's a ton of radical companies that set the bar ridiculously high, without any of these practices being implemented, there won't be any reason for other companies not to.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

snip

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Why are you angry about an expansion being priced at what expansions have been priced at since MMO's began. CoP was $49 at release back in 2004 with less content than Heavensward has. Even single player expansions were around that price (Diablo II: LoD for example).

I get hate for things like the cash shop, but this isn't something new that came in the recent years.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

I understand the frustration. This in particular is a small problem in the bigger picture of what you seem to be annoyed with.

All of the stuff you mentioned is just a part of gaming in the course of natural evolution. The internet/information generation changed a lot of things, and it changed a lot in gaming as well, arguably not for the better.

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Agreed. Honestly, the closest thing to old school tradition is Nintendo (though some would argue against that). Note that "closest" is the keyword there lol. After the early rise of GREAT indie games like Super Meat Boy, quality control has dropped even further than it already was at the time. There was money to be made, not just by good indie devs (like Team Meat), but also those hoping to see equal results for **** products.

In the case of this games expansion though, even back in the day, it wasn't much different than it is now. Starcraft: Brood Wars, an expansion pack from 1998, had an MSRP of $30. Not sure where people are getting the idea that xpac games are dirt cheap... you know, given that BW is arguably the most recognized example of what an "expansion pack" is. I guess we could also include D2: LoD, but that was a few years after BW.