Gil Toss Ability to drain gil out of the economy?

NIN 2 hour > Gil Toss

But both are pretty lame for a MMO.

If they implement this, I hope there wouldn't be a cap. 'Cause I'm gonna feel real cheated if I spent 52468 gil for a Gil Toss attempt, and find out it only hits for 9999.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

Now that leve gil-rewards have been significantly reduced it is difficult to make large amounts of gil.

However there is still -lots- of gil floating around and no real gil sinks.

So how about a gil-toss ability that does 1/10th damage of the gil thrown.

Then have "quick runs" as a requirement for some items on raids. So basically the super-rich or the giant linkshell-banks can spend their gil to kill off bosses insanely fast for quick-run victories.

Basically use gil-toss as a way to drain the economy of gil. At some point it would become fairly useless because enough gil would be taken out of the economy to make the gil vs damage ratio not worth it.

Your thoughts?

edit: please read this before you try to argue no one would spend gil.
I think a lot of people are failing to connect the dots here.

This is nothing new.

FFXI had HNM shells selling HNM drops for large amounts of gil. Those who didn't want to do HNMs but wanted a ridill could farm 20mil and purchase one.

FFXI proves people would be willing to pay the gil.
All this does it take out the middle man, instead of paying an HNM shell to farm you a really rare drop, you offer to use your gil to win a raid (which can get them other items).

The raid can still be done without gil, so endgame shells can still raid for the item.
Those who are rich can spend some of the gil they have to get the item faster so they don't have to waste time raiding
People who want the item but think 10 ppl will get it before them can farm or craft or do some kind of economic activity to make gil and then spend that to get a -chance- at the item.

So -everyone- wins. If you're a raider you have a chance, if you have lots of gil you have a chance, if you don't get to play often but can save up a lot you have a chance.
The economy wins because people create more economic activity to get the gil to have a chance.
And the economy wins because gil is drained from the game.

once more
-PEOPLE WERE WILLING TO PAY FOR ELITE GEAR IN FFXI-
so why wouldn't they be here?

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I think having the "Throw Gil" Ability would be kind of fun, and it would extract gil from the economy. But, I think someone in another thread suggested having a "Golden Saucer" type area like in FFXII (for those who don't know, its a casino) and this would probably be more effective. Of course, the response to that idea was "maybe later" which is understandable considering the amount of work the game still needs.

Not a bad idea though.

Just give us an gamble function like Diablo and this issue is solved.

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Originally Posted by Phenidate

My opinion of people throwing away money on garbage still stands. If you need to pay for status or spiritual freedom, there are better ways to go about it.

Go back and read the rest of my post because I already brought up the reason as to WHERE this massive influx of cash is likely coming from.

The number of botters and multi-boxers running around exploiting the present system of leve rewards has been rising steadily over the past couple weeks, from being an uncommon sighting to the present common occurrence.

Whats more, insane prices like your aforementioned 20million gil HNM drops is a serious symptom of poorly balanced gil sinks to gil adds, one of the contributing factors on why the economy was messed up in FFXI. Where is any single person going to farm that sort of money without a MASSIVE over dedication in time? There IS A REASON RMT ARE SUCCESSFUL. Why spend weeks of your time when you could just pay off some internet creep to give it to you after they hoarded it doing what ever TOS violating operation they run; be it botters, underpaid GIL farmers or multi-boxing to exploit rewards. Its crap like that 20million HNM drop that encourages it and makes such a business successful.

What is needed? Tweaks to existing gil sinks, more gil sinks which are REASONABLE and do not encourage large lump sums of gil. 100 gil here, 1000 there... Balance it against the frequency that players gain gil against the frequency these gil sinks are used, allowing for some accumulation of wealth (the rate of which is dependent on how much money has to be expended).

How this system is balanced dictates the amount of effort a player needs to invest to afford what they want. Raise the difficulty too say... the ridiculous difficulty of early FFXI and you make it too tempting and easy too just pay someone else too do it for you. Make it too easy and the value of money just becomes irrelevant after a certain point (such as in WOW where once you start raking in thousands of gil NPCing off greys or what have you, there is very little left to do with it other than just pass it around. There is a reason Blizzard started to add random junk like pets and novelty items costing hundreds of gold, there isn't much else they can add without making the barrier to entry to high for some via classic gil sinks)

The point is, take too heavy handed and over zealous an approach to this problem and you have the same stupid mistakes we've seen in the past such as our lack of a decent way to exchange goods. Boy, that sure shut down the RMT didn't it? Pay no attention to the 16 lalafell running by with vowel-less names and eerily mechanical movements folks.

Your solution is the equivalent of a nuke where a scalpel is needed.

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RMT have nothing in this game.... Leves don't give out good enough awards anymore so thats out for them. Now all they can really do is fish bot and craft bot and that doesn't generate influx's of gil but rather just transfers gil around. Further the market for gil in this game is so small they have very few RMT working it since they won't make much of a profit....

I can't say I would ever use this ability and I have a lot of gil.

I definitely think FF14 needs a gil sink but i wouldn't go for "gil toss". As rep grinds and AF sets get added, its my belief that there will be plenty of chances for players to sink gil into powering reps, buying tokens etc.

ATM the only thing players are spending any sort of massive amounts of gil on are +2/3 items, and the problem with that is that only 25% of those 2/3 items being made ever hit the general ward retainers. Typically when me or LS mates produce these "epeen" items they go to friends first, and +1/2 items go to the wards.

I like the idea mentioned earlier of a Diablo style gambling system. For those that are unfamiliar with the system, imagine picking a base type of item (an iron sabs for example) and buying a chance at a +1-3 version.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

RMT have nothing in this game.... Leves don't give out good enough awards anymore so thats out for them. Now all they can really do is fish bot and craft bot and that doesn't generate influx's of gil but rather just transfers gil around. Further the market for gil in this game is so small they have very few RMT working it since they won't make much of a profit....

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And we're back to this poor understanding of the scale RMT is operating on.

Here's what I've seen over the last few days:
http://randomyandere.imgur.com/rmt_bots/all

If these leves give so little, they seem to disagree. Leves around Nophica typically pay out 3 to 8k depending on the leve, time completion and difficulty.

Assuming they are picking up equivalent leves here and elsewhere, and it is JUST THIS GROUP they are running, at worse they are netting 192,000 gil (assuming 3k average per leve) for 7 bots and the ringleader doing their 8 leves. Trading in the right leves on ones that already give about 7 or 8k? We're looking at around 512k gil generated for THIS GROUP.

As far as crafting? Take Jellyfish Humors as an example. About 8 synths earns you 13,440gil. With 3 crafters they are making 41,580 gil in 1/3 the the time it would take us to do the same. Add in the fact that this particular trio of bots has been at it for about 2 weeks non stop?

Feel free to check my math.

Assume it takes a (generous) 10 minutes to finish a stack. 3 bots crafting 336 hours straight. If they produce just 6 stacks an hour a piece? 9,313,920 gil.

But wait, HOW are they getting all these jelly fish humours? Not hard. Cassie hollow and the Jelly islands near Bloodshore? Tons of jellies that quickly respawn and are farmed for the Humours and Cnida. (The last series of bots have apparently been banned because they are finally gone after a week. Who knows how much mats they offloaded in that time though?)

No one seems to care enough to figure out how many of these groups there are, nor any idea who these bots belong to. They keep popping up and the only response anyone seems to give to this is "LOL it doesn't matter the game has no economy."

Man, everyone is gonna hate it when we do get one going and all these bots suddenly become a major problem. They don't keep that gil for themselves, they are selling it to lazy players looking for a quick way to pick up a couple million. Tell me, Miss Economist? What are these players going to do with this money exactly?

If it ends up going this way, then yeah, throwing away 10 million gil at our problems will be about the only way to solve this problem.

RMTs are not as big as a problem in this game as you think. yes they can generate a lot of new gil but thats only half of what they need to do to get control the other thing is they need to funnel as much of the gil that the other players have to them and this where things change unlike in other game where prices get really high in this game the RMTs will have to under sell. we will see them have to move items that sell quickly vs. items that can sell for a really high price.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

1. I'm nowhere near poor.
2. I'm an economist irl
3. At the moment the FFXIV economy will not function properly at PS3 release due to some people holding on to 100's of mil. If that gil is not drained prior to the PS3 release the games economy will fall apart quickly. This happened in FFXI due to similar reasons as a result of Rusty Cap Fish-botting.
4. What I proposed here is basic economic incentive-based policy. The policy creates an incentive for capable individuals to pool gil from across the server into their personal hands and then depost that gil into a gil sink to remove it from the economy. It's not magic, it's not revolutionary. It's quite simple.
edit 5: This does not make rich people "poorer", it just converts their gil into an item. A possibility would be to make those items trade-able so that they actually retain their value.

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If you work in the U.S., Obama needs to fire you to fix our problems.

Another option would be something like the Femina and Vir subligaria in FFXI, each costing 8mil. It provided a means of acquiring cashmere thread.

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Originally Posted by Phenidate

And we're back to this poor understanding of the scale RMT is operating on.

Here's what I've seen over the last few days:
http://randomyandere.imgur.com/rmt_bots/all

If these leves give so little, they seem to disagree. Leves around Nophica typically pay out 3 to 8k depending on the leve, time completion and difficulty.

Assuming they are picking up equivalent leves here and elsewhere, and it is JUST THIS GROUP they are running, at worse they are netting 192,000 gil (assuming 3k average per leve) for 7 bots and the ringleader doing their 8 leves. Trading in the right leves on ones that already give about 7 or 8k? We're looking at around 512k gil generated for THIS GROUP.

As far as crafting? Take Jellyfish Humors as an example. About 8 synths earns you 13,440gil. With 3 crafters they are making 41,580 gil in 1/3 the the time it would take us to do the same. Add in the fact that this particular trio of bots has been at it for about 2 weeks non stop?

Feel free to check my math.

Assume it takes a (generous) 10 minutes to finish a stack. 3 bots crafting 336 hours straight. If they produce just 6 stacks an hour a piece? 9,313,920 gil.

But wait, HOW are they getting all these jelly fish humours? Not hard. Cassie hollow and the Jelly islands near Bloodshore? Tons of jellies that quickly respawn and are farmed for the Humours and Cnida. (The last series of bots have apparently been banned because they are finally gone after a week. Who knows how much mats they offloaded in that time though?)

No one seems to care enough to figure out how many of these groups there are, nor any idea who these bots belong to. They keep popping up and the only response anyone seems to give to this is "LOL it doesn't matter the game has no economy."

Man, everyone is gonna hate it when we do get one going and all these bots suddenly become a major problem. They don't keep that gil for themselves, they are selling it to lazy players looking for a quick way to pick up a couple million. Tell me, Miss Economist? What are these players going to do with this money exactly?

If it ends up going this way, then yeah, throwing away 10 million gil at our problems will be about the only way to solve this problem.

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1. even choosing the best leves they make nowhere near that amount anymore.
2.so they sell the stuff they craft from a jelly fish w/e to an npc? how much does each npc for o_O

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Originally Posted by Zangetsu

If you work in the U.S., Obama needs to fire you to fix our problems.

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1. Obama is a president. The president is mainly responsible for foreign relations + not domestic problems. Congress is the deciding force in how your budget turns out. Obama is just a negotiator for a general political ideal, which isn't agreed upon by all members of the party since they are all trying to get re-elected in their congressional district.
Put another way, Obama can only act as the "figurehead" of economic reform and not the actual reformer

2. Your problems are a result of doing exactly opposite of what economists suggest should be done.

Economics is math and while parts are debatable for the most part if you apply the proper concepts, they work, in almost every case (assuming you tweak things a bit). It isn't magic.

It's understandable that you aren't familiar with economics (as it's not really taught properly in schools). But you shouldn't go around making assumptions about something you don't know or trying to make statements about a subject your unfamiliar with just because it "sounds" wrong to you.

If you have a problem with my economic arguments, then counter them with other economic arguments. But making statements like that just shows you're ignorant about the topic. And when a bunch of people who don't understand something try to pretend they do, problems like the depression in the U.S and the economy in this game arise.

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Originally Posted by Sav

Another option would be something like the Femina and Vir subligaria in FFXI, each costing 8mil. It provided a means of acquiring cashmere thread.

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this is a great idea. The reason i suggested gil toss over this is because selling an item at a high cost from an NPC -DOES- drain gil but then it kind of leaves those who aren't rich out of the picture. Whereas gil toss would allow for essentially the same thing, but at the same time still allow those who lack gil to raid and acquire the items. This in turn doesn't penalize new players who joined the game after gil rewards were lowered.

Can just give gil to Sasha Calico on Rabanastre. I understand ppl have been accruing gil like mad however I am not one of those ppl. Donations are gladly accepted. :)

Wasn't there an ability to throw gear in a FF game?

LOL. i would much rather kill the mob than lob my gil at it no matter how much i have

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

1. Obama is a president. The president is mainly responsible for foreign relations + not domestic problems. Congress is the deciding force in how your budget turns out. Obama is just a negotiator for a general political ideal, which isn't agreed upon by all members of the party since they are all trying to get re-elected in their congressional district.
Put another way, Obama can only act as the "figurehead" of economic reform and not the actual reformer

2. Your problems are a result of doing exactly opposite of what economists suggest should be done.

Economics is math and while parts are debatable for the most part if you apply the proper concepts, they work, in almost every case (assuming you tweak things a bit). It isn't magic.

It's understandable that you aren't familiar with economics (as it's not really taught properly in schools). But you shouldn't go around making assumptions about something you don't know or trying to make statements about a subject your unfamiliar with just because it "sounds" wrong to you.

If you have a problem with my economic arguments, then counter them with other economic arguments. But making statements like that just shows you're ignorant about the topic. And when a bunch of people who don't understand something try to pretend they do, problems like the depression in the U.S and the economy in this game arise.

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lol really........? Way to take a pun and turn it into something serious. People like you defeat the purpose of a video game.

And here comes a serious response about how everyone has access to a game so they can do as they please with it. =D

Sorry but I just don't think it's a good idea. Yes it's an original idea, but that doesn't necessarily make it a good one :(. Linkshell selling drops is one thing, but saving up a crapton of money to one shot a boss seems wrong to me.