New claim system, the death of open world content?

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Originally Posted by quantumsaint

I'm a little disappointed if this is true, since contested claims were one of the more entertaining aspects of FFXI to me, but on the other hand I can understand why they would want to move away from the greed and frustration that this sort of system incurs.

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Of FFXI, not FFXIV. As I was saying since they have FFXI why model another game after it when they want it to be completely different?

They wanted it to be completely different. That didn't work so well for them. Now, they're backpedaling to make it more similar to FFXI, and FF in general.

/blockaid
/blockassist
/blockmobassist

Solved.

On the griefing thing, I'd imagine that any substantial HNM type stuff would damage everyone with AOEs regardless of whether they are the ones who have it claimed or not like Kings in 11. The other option is if anyone in your party attacks something your party is now eligible to get hit with AOE.

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Originally Posted by quantumsaint

They wanted it to be completely different. That didn't work so well for them. Now, they're backpedaling to make it more similar to FFXI, and FF in general.

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Actually you are completely wrong on this, this game is farther from FFXI at the point it is now compared to when it first started. All the changes that they have even mentioned are making it more and more different from FFXI but you did say FF in general and that part is true. The reason it was the way it was prior is because they released an unfinished project and on top of that Tanaka had way too much on his plate and he even admitted to that himself. He said they kept planning all this great stuff that they can add in the future but the problem was they didn't have anything added at that point, so when the game released it had virtually no content and lacked all the other core components it needed to succeed.

Only took the time to read the OP long post.

Coming from FFXI, I must say I really got accustomed to the claiming system there. I have tried on other F2P MMO's a sorta free for all system where everyone can attack anything regardless if its claimed or not, I must say, I did not enjoy that.

Now, to be honest, how I understood the translation and all the information that has been provided to us:

1st: in the future there might be large scale events for leveling up (the new claiming system will help with this)

2nd: Dungeons/instance/raids will still be implemented with varied party requirements (entering alone in the instance with your party, claiming system or not, there wont be issues with this)

3rd: Going by what little information we have, I dont think there is any need for this thread so early... I feel this is just another case of the low level of trust we have on this Dev Team. We dont even know details on how it will be exactly, and we are going by our experiences. I say we wait and see before complaining about something there are virtually no real details on how it will work.

As of right now, since the Dev team has been able to move forward with meaningful changes after 1.18, I have been happy with the results. I am willing to give it a shot and see how this will pan out.

I agree.

If anything this ridiculous idea that SE can take relevant steps against RMT while at the same time ANNOUNCING HOW THEY PLAN TO STOP THEM.

Guess what, you're just giving them time to get around your feeble attempts at stopping them.

From this they already know all they need to do is KEEP DOING WHAT THEY DO. Claim first. Oh but good news! Now they know they don't even have to try to win the fights. I really hope that idea occurred to someone over there. Announcing anti RMT measures, making them horribly easy to exploit or work around

Don't get me wrong, the games getting better, good job improving the game so far and what have you, but you seriously need to rethink those long term strategies.

If anything when it comes to rewards for fights, is it THAT impossible for your team to come up with something better than 'claim first get loot, participants get SP'. At least try to weight participation against rewards.

I don't ever want to see 'Asdf Wewdew' and his army of 7 bots who some how managed to beeline for the monster spawn and claim it before it even spawns, and then be rewarded no matter how little they contribute to the fight and how much players who come along did to win it. Think about it, we'll be going back to 2002 but this time we'll have the honor of doing the bots and RMT's work for them. Woohoo.

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Originally Posted by Holland

Only took the time to read the OP long post.

Coming from FFXI, I must say I really got accustomed to the claiming system there. I have tried on other F2P MMO's a sorta free for all system where everyone can attack anything regardless if its claimed or not, I must say, I did not enjoy that.

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Can't say random F2P games would be a good place to find 'good mehanics'. In the case of world events and open fights, I'd say the system in Warhammer did a good job of rewarding participation. If you are there from the start and participate in a given events objectives, you received the full EXP reward and equal chance at good loot. If you jumped in at the end or just stood around, you'd be lucky to get anything.

Really in the end that's how any event where anyone can jump in should be handled. No one should be rewarded for showing up and putting on a pretty face unless its a beauty contest.

Sorry, I just read this thread now and only got through the first page of responses so if someone else has already made this inquiry, please forgive me. I would like to know what exactly is wrong with the current claim system?

Again forgive me, I'm still new to the game but my experiences with the system have all been fairly good; I'll get together with my linkshell, make a list of items we would like and then pursue the NM's or dungeons until we have satisfied our list. I don't know if my experience is unique or not but I've really had no complaints with the system besides that it's a little clunky to use.

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Originally Posted by StycianLeo

Sorry, I just read this thread now and only got through the first page of responses so if someone else has already made this inquiry, please forgive me. I would like to know what exactly is wrong with the current claim system?

Again forgive me, I'm still new to the game but my experiences with the system have all been fairly good; I'll get together with my linkshell, make a list of items we would like and then pursue the NM's or dungeons until we have satisfied our list. I don't know if my experience is unique or not but I've really had no complaints with the system besides that it's a little clunky to use.

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Aside from the clunkiness, the whole "no full SP if a non-claimed monster was hurt before claim" sucks. This really only seems to hurt groups actively trying to grind, who either mess up AOE or get aggro mid fight. Rather than reward a group for overcoming the challenge of more than they were trying to tackle with full SP or an SP chain, it drops the total reward. :X

Thank you for clearing that up Phenidate, I take your point and agree with it; pending certain conditions, if the monster in question was still weakened from a previous engagement and then defeated, I think it stands to reason that one would receive less sp from that kill. But if a monster was engaged, recovered, and defeated by another party it seems unfair to penalize the winning party for taking care of business.

If the "no claim" system allows us to get FULL SP from all mobs we attacked or get credit in the amount of dmg done I'm all for it.

As far as loot drops, open world NM are on such short respawns if you lose a claim it's up again shortly plus you can speed a long the killing by helping the grp bring the NM down.

For HNM spawns I like the idea of either them being instanced in the open world like a leve mob. Or in instanced dungeons. (BCNM?)

If this new Claiming System, gives us the ability to kill multiple mob groups at the same time without worrying which one needs to die first.


Yeah, that may solve the RMT problem...

But we have seen bots that have super long range attack,
what if they make the bots hitting every mob first? ex. hit all coblyns one time each, then aoe them all ?



And oh, if other PT can join an open world NM fight.... thats gonna suck.

- now we cant balance the game... what if they bring 2-3 parties? scatter and cover all the spawn area?
ahaaa.... other LS, or small PT will have no chance to get the loot..
Will ppl be like... "oh, lets take turns!" most ppl dont care,... thats only in the fairy tale..
and I personally do not want to see this happen.

- 2-3 PT from different LS fighting one NM ?? we're gonna have a big big hate control issue.. lol


I think, this current claiming system is working fine.. just need a little tweak.
But like what they said in the interview, that they would love to make players able to help each other out in a fight..
that is a really good idea...


Oh !?? how about this idea...
make a number of engaging players per 1 mob group limit = 8 ??

so.... like this... party A has only 3 players.. killing an NM..
give the PT leader an ability to pick.. if they will let other PT attack their claimed mob..
lets say... this party put this = ON
party B came by, with 5 members... party B can help engaging because PartyA+PartyB = 8 members (this will not kill the balancing system)

if the assist option of PartyA is off,.. then ... yeah... just like this current system.. no body can touch their claimed mob.

The day this game goes mostly raid based content is the last day I play. If I wanted to play a raid based game of (which this claiming system will lead to), I would have chose another game.

I have nothing to say, beyond stating I mostly agree with Meowie. This claiming system sounds truly horrible.

I prefer to wait until the devs give more in depth examples about this new system. (instead of freakin out)

I didn't read the whole thread, just the OP...

and now I am totally confused... SE said they want to make this game revolve around smaller parties. That's why 15 man group was dropped to 8. New Dungeons are 8 and 4 man... they were even talking about small LS (groups whatever... to tired to find the info)

...but now they wanna make it where 30 people can attack the same mob for 'claim' and to get items. I'll wait for more info, but I do NOT like the sound of what the OP quoted. If ya attack a mob your group should have the bloody mob, I don't want a whole group of people running up and messing that up or trying to purposely MPK my group so they can steal it.

I need more info on this... this can't be right. >.<

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Originally Posted by Reinheart

Well they did say if something was overly done they can make adjustments and will try to make adjustments quickly to fix it right at the end of that interview. We'll see how the system is and if it needs fix right away after players test since dev testing seems to always have holes... we can tell them to get it fixed.

Personally I like this new idea and makes sense, + for harder NM's like HNM style they did say they were going to make them more instance based so it should solve lots of problems we saw in FFXI imo.

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I think so too. Every valuable loot will be from instances or maybe even forced pop NM/HNM. All those Open-World NM's should be implemented if they're a part of the whole story in FFXIV. So think about a huge effin Dragon which needs to be killed, to unlock a new city or some crap. But that only works with a large amount of people =D.

If there are interchangeable loots from popped/instanced NM's and open-world NM's everyone will just go with the first option. That one is less stressy and noone needs to worry about claiming and shit.

And for the SPing in groups stuff with additional players/parties ganking on the same mob. Maybe SE will implement different pools of SP for every mob. Let's say 5000SP all together (just an example) for an 8-man group and only 2500SP for every additional people which are "helping". In termns of FFXI, the 5000SP will be for the "red-claimers" and the 2500SP for the "purple" claimers.

I'm playing RIFT at the moment, (7-day trial =X) and atm I think it's a great idea with those rifts events. Where you can participate in a group or alone and still can get some loot. I dunno if they're getting more difficult later on, but at the moment, everyone's fighting against those rifts to save the world! Helps a bit with the MMO feeling. It's too bad though, that it's cloned so heavily from WoW.

So we'll have to wait what SE is going to come up with the battle adjustments and everything. I still think FFXIV can be great.. but it's taking a damn long time for that =P

Oh and for the hell of it.... GIMMEH MAH BLUE MAGE!

I'm hoping there is a lot of open-world content, but it's much more open and easy to get into, such as roaming NMs/campaign/small group quests and invasions/escorts/leves. And of course the usual minigames and exploration that comes with a classic final fantasy game.

I guess they could always make the open-world bosses so incredibly tough that multiple parties would just become part of the strategy. Like a HNM that requires 6 tanks because he one-shots all of them and you have to chainspell rebirth them before he one shots the rest so that he can one shot that tank again. rinse repeat.

obviously this isnt appealing lol. This whole idea of no open-world content is actually very unappealing but so are a lot of the things ive heard floating around and i've yet to see their implementation.

you voice your complaints and cross your fingers.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

off topiC: one thing that wuold hurt rmt would be pvp, you suspect someone of rmt just go kill them.

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LOL that's will funny, but i am agree whit >atsh, this will broke the game. instanced PVP and duels. i vote for that.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Whatever they do, people will complain till they change it. Then people will complain some more, so I don't know why I even read these... ><

IMO the loot claiming and loot system needs to be whoever struck the monster first. With countermeasures against bots.
The Loot needs to have a loot master, this "falling evenly and into random peoples inventory" crap needs to end.

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Its no big deal. people will give items to those who needs them.

NO CLAIMING POSSISION!!!!!!!!!!!

if you die on a claim you lose it period.

if SE does this they game will be one big garbage instance.

Possession and or Monster Claiming Structure

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Matsui: We’re making adjustments so we can drop the claiming system. This means others not in party can attack the same monster and RMT like players can try to take over so making it the party with the first attacker can only get the loot. For contents with alliance we’re thinking of a system where the loot is evenly distributed or changing amount of loot depending on amount of damage given.

Yoshida: I think it’s good where other players can help and with later alliance battle where few parties get together we really think we don’t need the claiming system. Contents that drop rare items will be more instance based in future, and will also lessen where you have to fight over to claim.

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I am concerned about this. I understand that it seems to be for HNM's and alliance content that, at this time, does not provide SP/EXP gains per kill. But will this be in effect for all mobs? I would hope that others would not be capable of going around and disturbing SP parties.

Also if a group has a good set up with emnity balancing in the party streamlined, would these outsiders or "helpers" in this case be able to affect the balance of emnity, therefore throwing off the claim parties balance and possibly disturbing to the fight, to a point of failure?

At this time, I can see the claiming system implemented due to not having the ability to form an alliance, however, once an alliances are formed having more than an alliance going after a specific mob may take away some of the strategy that, could be involved, as well.

I find the idea of the claiming system above to encourage menacing, mainly because (with current NM's giving no SP/EXP gains), what would be the point of an outsider engaging in the mob, unless there was some incentive... With or without a reason, if it is someone you don't know I don't think it would be a very comfortable situation. At least for me lol.

If you want to allow people outside parties to be able to participate why not make it so just the members of the Linkshell who claim the mob first get to participate outside of party instead of everyone else?

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Loot

Honestly if we could just get our "Loot Pool" that would be wonderful.

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Future Voting

With the new forum restrictions being put in place to only allow somewhat active players to participate I think it would be a wise improvement to also make that the same for any future polls.

I just wonder if the vote on this topic was premature and done with a different player base than the one who truly continues to play the content we have today. I would like to have a re-vote will all currently active player base. Not LAST 30 days but last two weeks! And have a cut off, or a time line, if someone hasn't logged in for 30 days I don't consider them active in my Linkshell.


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Balance of Content

I also want to state that I hope we have a balance of claiming content and instanced content that provides a wide variety of drops. Some of us really like the strict competition and adrenaline that is involved in the claiming process. While others prefer the instanced team oriented goals. I think that making sure both continue throughout the games evolution would round out the game nicely.

Also do not throw out the idea of pops either. Mobs that require a pop item to spawn were also a fun part of the NM scene in XI and should continue into XIV.

First party to attack will get loot is fair enough ! :P It would be ok this way.

Agree with OP, this proposed system will be either griefed or exploited, I really cannot see a middle ground.

The only problem with people getting massive EXP and the misguided belief that people leveling too quickly is bad is the mentality that you learn to play your job as you level up -- which you don't.

There is nary an MMO where the primary skills and talents required to be good at end game content are learned during the leveling process. Leveling takes a long time purely because games need a timesinking carrot to keep you playing. If SE turned FFXIV into a game where you could hit max level in a day -- all they'd need to do to keep it interesting and fun is to replace the chore of leveling with a more viable timesink, which, to me, is an interesting prospect.

Consider, for example, if they made it so that once you hit level 50 with a Class, you gained access to its Jobs -- and to level up those jobs you had to do quests which required dungeons, NMs, and other such time-consuming but productive and involved tasks. Suddenly people getting max level in a short period of time doesn't matter at all: they still have quests, missions, battles, and other tasks to take care of to earn their keep and improve their play.

The only way you can complain about this is system change is by comparing it to pre-existing ones -- it could potentially be a really great alternative if handled properly. Its all a matter of how SE handles the rest of the game's redevelopment -- and for that, we'll have to wait and see.

I'm going to post to bump this thread. Here are my thoughts:
1. Vindicuts is completely instances raid dungeons. That game would be soo awesome as an open world like Mabinogi.
2. PSO is completely instance as well, as great as that game was it would have been amazing to be able to play with more than just 4 other people. Should have added an open world to it as well
3. FFXIV IS OPEN WORLD, soo why not keep it that way and not make it where you can only play with a few of your friends, instead of everyone.

I am curious how will this affect enmity control, especially if people outside your group don't care? Enmity control is group work, look at Batraal and Ogre fights. Imagine now a group of 6 archers and conjurers that starts spamming skills and spells on your mob.

Bye bye hate control, hello mpk.

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Originally Posted by Synthesis

Its no big deal. people will give items to those who needs them.

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lol yeah right, i assume this was just trying to be funny. take warhammer no one passed on things like rank 75 stuff even if u was rank 50 and very long way of ever using it. then in that game people tried to create a dkp system with need and greed witch didn't work outside of keeping there own groups and they were usually never full groups anymore.

but with this system i'm wondering if it's all bout dmg for the better drops? then the group without the tank and heals wins? do we start making zerg groups to try steal mobs? 8 vs 8 1 set up right and 1 set up just to win the prizes><

i can see problems with it, but they did say instanced is majority of drops...lets hope this isn't a huge problem in itself. also what Rokien said in his post is pretty much how i feel, a game where i'm just doing stuff with ls or with a group static the full game life? ain't gonna be a game i want to play, ffxi 99% of everything u did with diff people from grinds to missions, endgame was only thing static and it was huge group play so it didn't matter it was a blast.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

Would hurt players too... Look at Aion's ganking problem

Rival linkshell claims X mob go kill them, Rival Ls is gathering for Dungeons Go kill them, Rival linkshell member just raised up at a Aetherit gate camp their body until you force them to just log off.

The kind of PvP you describe would basically kill the game more of less.

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Pretty much all of the above is wrong in one way or another.

1. Aion is a pvp-centric game.
2. Aion doesn't have a ganking problem, since they essentially nerfed the rifting system that sponsored it. Even back when rifting was rampant, you could avoid being ganked fairly easily. In my trek from 1-40, I was ganked perhaps a dozen times total, split evenly between Eltnen and Heiron. If I had really wanted to avoid it, I could have simply jumped over to Theobomos.
3. Said pvp has hardly killed Aion. Last time I checked, Aion was pushing 4.5 million subscribers worldwide, which is hardly what I would call dying.

Though, oddly enough, I've never ran across a bot in the Abyss. I wonder why... :)