NIN Opener / Rotation

Sorry should included that. Ilvl 110 and just got the high all again cleavers.

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Originally Posted by Destinova

Huton > DE > Mutilate > Fang > AE > setup for next AE (use SE and GS) pop IR BfB Suiton Kass TA Ration Finish AE hit jugilate and mug

I hit 500+ with this opener. I just have to work on my sustained.

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500+ burst or over how many mins/huton cycle?

IL110 weapon without party buff over 3 huton cycles, 518

http://oi57.tinypic.com/2055jra.jpg

I like the suiton opening a couple pages back, can you check that?

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

500+ burst or over how many mins/huton cycle?

IL110 weapon without party buff over 3 huton cycles, 518

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Geez, that seems insane. I'm soon going to be raiding as NIN (static restructured), mind showing me your opener? I saw a lot of the ones on this thread, but I'm not sure which is best.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

500+ burst or over how many mins/huton cycle?

IL110 weapon without party buff over 3 huton cycles, 518

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This gives me so much hope for my NIN DPS. It sucks with this atma weapon.

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Originally Posted by ShaolinMike

This gives me so much hope for my NIN DPS. It sucks with this atma weapon.

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Weapon slot is biggest upgrade across all slots so yea it changes alot.

I was working on my burst opener yesterday and managed to get 1134 DPS in burst (party dex, food, potion) or 936 burst (solo, no food, no pot) , but could not hit more than 503 DPS in 2 minutes parse.
I would love to see Oshimaa's video on dummie so i could work on my sustain.
Or maybe its becouse im EU and i see quite big diffirence when i watch US/JP videos and i see slight DPS drop everytime i cast 3 mudras ;/
Cant wait for EU database.

dat overall 34% skill crit rate though

guessing that 1685 raiton is with a dex pot. ha wep and i113, on the low end, i barely break 1700 sometimes with bfb/ta/x-pot up, surprising and a bit sad that the poor itemization on HA wep really undermines the WD increase on a per hit basis lol

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Originally Posted by Tsuya

Weapon slot is biggest upgrade across all slots so yea it changes alot.

I was working on my burst opener yesterday and managed to get 1134 DPS in burst (party dex, food, potion) or 936 burst (solo, no food, no pot) , but could not hit more than 503 DPS in 2 minutes parse.
I would love to see Oshimaa's video on dummie so i could work on my sustain.
Or maybe its becouse im EU and i see quite big diffirence when i watch US/JP videos and i see slight DPS drop everytime i cast 3 mudras ;/
Cant wait for EU database.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEMKKhojIIg

close enough if you're bored. #1 decider of dps swings is how laggy mudras are for you at that moment, the rest is just simple priority system dpsing

doing the same thing in that video with HA wep instead was 532 dps over 3m23s

Yep. I wont be able to do as much as any good NA/JP player, cant wait for eu server, this is depressing coz i dont see much diffirence in your sustain than mine but i can see DPS drop everytime i cast mudras ...

I made i vid to show u my average mudra cast, sometimes its a lil faster, but then its like 1 out of 5 in some instances.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8tU...ature=youtu.be
NOTE: I can input mudras lots faster but then it wont register first or third mudra, or if i start spamming Ninjutsu too early it will register only 2 so im kidna forces to do it in pace showed on video.

yep, mudra speed is killer. 520-530 on a dummy parse simulating a raid environment, sure! easy/consistent.

but in something like the first 40% of t11 (which is basically 100% uptime) with how laggy the fcob instances are, maintaining 510+ is annoying and hard lol. literally days between each mudra cast

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

yep, mudra speed is killer. 520-530 on a dummy parse simulating a raid environment, sure! easy/consistent.

but even doing the first 40% of t11 (which is basically 100% uptime) with how laggy the fcob instances are, maintaining 510+ is annoying and hard lol

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I did 10 and 11 on my NIN and max i was getting was 490, wich was good anyway but still.
Someone recommended to me using VPN, gonna try it today.
Lets not OT too much here then ;)

Ooshima, very nice. I'd love to see a video of your opener and sustain rot.

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

dat overall 34% skill crit rate though

guessing that 1685 raiton is with a dex pot. ha wep and i113, on the low end, i barely break 1700 sometimes with bfb/ta/x-pot up, surprising and a bit sad that the poor itemization on HA wep really undermines the WD increase on a per hit basis lol

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Pot is used but as per my post, it is the UAT IL110 weapon. I don't have the HA weapon. Item Level is 110.

On a side note I maintain a 2.0GCD via a min of 486 skilll speed, which is what a lot of NINs doesn't maintain and dropping debuffs and DoTs.

I have hit 1700 on a Raiton before with the IL110 weapon, and a 1985 crit Trick Attack too. If I have the HA weapon it would be higher.

I'd also like to know your opening burst Ooshima!

I figured i'd post this video here of Firana Magnus' rotation/opener (520 3min). He has a channel on twitch called Wabakabi Snatcher.

I'm not sure if it differs from any of the other rotations posted here so hopefully you guys can pick it apart. Firana has since obtained the i130 Magitek Daggers so his dummy parse will be substantially higher but this was with HA weapon, party buff and no potion apparently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5lTcltM_Uo

Thanks for the post, Pro - be interested to see the itemization on that gear. NIN is the first class that I'm actually considering that on - I have avoided skill speed like the plague for MNK, but it seems like it has a significant impact on DPS to get your GCD to 2.0s

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Originally Posted by PROBOUND

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Point is there is a heavy difference beween the dps posted by Firana and the one posted by Ooshima.

Firana does 520 with party buff (about 3% increased dps), food (about 1.5% dps increase), and HA (3-4% dps increase). That's about 8% increase compared to none of it. When i do my dummy rotation i usually ends up if i don't mess up in the low 470 range, and that's with body, ring and bracelet 120 (but not optimized gear). With 8% more i would reach about 510. With a bit of luck on crits and on mudra's timing, i can see the 520 with full i110 + ha/food/party.

Ooshima showed a parse indicating 518 without HA nor party buff (i assume still food). This is MUCH, MUCH higher than what firana demonstrated, and i have no clue how those numbers are achieved. Thus, i would appreciate, too, full disclosure on those parse: what gear is exactly used ? I use gear that is not BIS, although it shouldn't make much of a difference, but i assume i need to keep 510+ acc; allowing oneself to gimp the accuracy could result in up to 5% dps increase that is "hidden". Using pots could be a difference too. If there are no such explanation, then i would like to understand what is so different in the rotation that explains a 5-6% difference.

It is also possible that it was one very very lucky run. It is only 3 min long after all. The parse shown indicate a crit rate of 34% overall. To achieve such a result would require over 400 additional crit rate, so over 740 crit rate stat. That is not even possible at this point. With full i110 stuff, you can not go higher than ~520 crit rate, which would be slightly less than 20% crit rate. And that is by seriously slacking on the accuracy (sub 450).

Anyway, that means the parse had a crit rate at the very least 14% superior to what it should have been, possibly even more. That is an outlier, not a trend. And 14% increased crit rate would be 7% more damage, explaining the difference with other people that only parse at 460 maximum on the average dummy run.

I just think it's important to be sure what we are talking about. Claiming ninjas can regularly pull out > 500 parse without party nor HA in full i110 is not going to help us in any way.

Ooshima's crit rate is obscene and, as Casper pointed out, is an exception - blessed by RNGeesus. We need more parses with 486~ Sksp, not just the 'best of', to determine the 2s GCD's true worth.

When you talk about those numbers @ full i110 with UAT weapon, this is what I imagine the gear being; http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/ONQR, which is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

Ooshima's crit rate is obscene and, as Casper pointed out, is an exception - blessed by RNGeesus. We need more parses with 486~ Sksp, not just the 'best of', to determine the 2s GCD's true worth.

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Thanks.

My guess is, the 2 sec GCD is a convenient myth. 2.15 sec GCD (so a grand total of zero additional SS) means that dancing edge, shadow fang, aeolian edge takes 17.2 sec to execute. That's 0.8 sec of clipping for shadow fang and DE. Should you have to use a jutsu, due to mudra lag, you would most likely end up with about zero clipping / downtime. Anytime you need to use mutilate, you will drop DE and SF for 1.35 to 2 seconds.

2 sec GCD means DE -> SF -> AE takes 16 seconds. total clipping of 2 seconds on DE and SF. With a mutilate, right on time, with a jutsu, a bit more of 1 sec of clipping, with both, a slight downtime.

You can't predict which of the 4 you will get each rotation, it will constantly vary between no delay, mutilate, jutsu, or both. A jutsu will most likely happen in most rotations due to having 20 sec CD, while a mutilate will only happen about half the rotations (and with a jutsu too usually). Let's assume you get a jutus in all cycles, and that you have a mutilate half the cycles, which is not far from the truth. The choice is between, on one hand, having no clipping but a down of 2 sec half the cycles, or on the other hand, having a clipping of 1.2 seconds half the time and a downtime of 0.8 sec the other half. You can not predict when the dots will tick in there too either. The result is likely to be minute and much lesser than just the luck of crits.

IMO, you will not be able to show any meaningful difference between the two with any reasonnable method.

Edit: Note that any gear will anyway have some SS one way or another, so the difference will be even lesser. For SF, the difference between clipping and dropping it will counterbalance anyway. So that leaves us with the DE buff. You are even assuming that you don't have a warrior keeping it up, in which case the point is moot. IF you are maintaining your own DE, then you are going to miss out on 10% of one attack every 2 cycles. That's at worst what ? 40 potency per minute ? that would be 1.5 dps. And that is assuming your ss is as good as crit or det excluding this technicality, which is not a given. No way there is a magic number for ninja's like there is for war. I don't buy it.

I see Ooshima also used a DEX pot. Why would you use some consumables or buffs without the others if you're looking for an accurate gauge? Either use a full party, DEX pots and food, or nothing at all, people. You're numbers mean nothing otherwise.

I use nothing on dummies myself because I find it translates well to my in-raid numbers, trading all the buffs for lack of responsibility. I'm happily putting up 460 DPS at i111 (http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/ONRS) on both dummies and in SCoB.

And, For the sake of the tread title; Huton - wait 5 - B4B & IR on approach - Mutilate, SF, DE.

When I use pot to parse, it isn't really about boosting the number, because like people have said, you can boost it further with party buff and food etc. However, the usage of pot here is to practice on timing and clicking, the opener with a pot. Considering that you have to do mudras and dealing with potential latency, your timing must be good to ensure that your Kassatsu'd Raiton lands with all the buffs and debuff on to achieve maximum damage in your opening.

As a matter of fact I did my usual practicing last night - no food, no pot, no party buff yada yada, same gears, same 3:30 for 3 Huton cycle, 500 DPS. I can't recall the crit rate but it should be just borderline 20%. The 518 parse shown earlier are only with DEX pot, nothing else.

There comes the question of the mentioning of 2.0GCD - I mentioned it because I have given this number to some of my fellow FC mates trying out NIN to improve and they do see the improvement. The problem lies in the fact that you cannot simply calculate the time you need based on tooltip. No, just no, because you have to take into account of different latency and response speed. Put it on paper the numbers may seem sound, but when you put it to the server and human respond speed, no. Each Mudra sign is 0.5s so a Raiton should be done in 1.5s, including the activation, should be under a GCD cooldown. But does anyone of you here actually activates a Ninjitsu under a GCD? I don't, I've not seen any Ninjas do, if you are one of them then congrats. I deal with about 70-90ms ping to Tonberry server, maybe if you live in Japan with some less than 20ms ping you might make it or something. Else, I depend on my 2.0GCD to give me the leeway so that I don't drop my DoT and debuff. I started off with crap skill speed and I was doing crap like 440 on dummy.

it's more of a server issue than player connection issue unfortunately. jp players living in japan playing on jp datacenters still have varying speeds of mudra activation, and the same with players near the montreal datacenters as well

the laggier you are on average (i've personally found that ramuh ex/fcob are the laggiest) the less value skillspeed has because you clip into your gcd more and more. hopefully they fix the delay, or at least make it standard across all zones/instances

The laggier you are, I think the more skillspd helps. Your normal GCD skill activation shouldn't be affected by lag - as such the faster you complete them, the more amount of time you have to complete your mudra, activate it, and continue to reapply your debuffs and DoTs without dropping or clipping them.

The default GCD without skillspd under Huton is 2.15s, so with 2.0s, each GCD skill you will save 0.15s.

If you quickly refer to the 3:28 parse I've shown earlier, I have used 98 GCD skills. A quick math would tell you that I have saved 14.7s in this 3:28 parse. 14.7s is enough for 7 GCD skills. You can try a parse where after your opener, stay still and just auto attack for 14.7s and continue your usual parse and see how much DPS you have dropped.

Also, for 98 GCD skills with each 2.0s, it should take me a total of 3:18 to pull them off. However, the parser shows you that the total time of my run was 3:28 (I manually ended it, so no extra seconds counted). This means that the Ninjitsus I've used in this run ate up 10s outside the GCD cooldown.

In the list of skills used, you can see that I have used 5 Raitons and 3 Suitons. Also, what is not shown is 2 recast of Huton. So 10 Ninjutsus here. 10 Ninjutsus, 10s extra. Each Ninjutsu took 1s extra, which means my cast time of the 3 signs + activation is a 3.0s itself.

With my extra skill speed, I have bought myself 14.7s to cover up for the 10s I've used outside the GCD timer to use my Ninjutsus. I'm still in surplus of 4.7s over the default skillspd to cover up for any potential spikes and crap. If you did not had bought time for yourself and your Ninjutsu lags, you might find yourself that your DoTs and debuffs will start to drop, or you have to reapply them too early to prevent from dropping. These are all the things that wastes your DPS.


Sadly speaking, these are the little little things you have to watch. It is how Bards doesn't even have a rotation to begin with but there are so many bards out there that does crap DPS.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

The laggier you are, I think the more skillspd helps. Your normal GCD skill activation shouldn't be affected by lag - as such the faster you complete them, the more amount of time you have to complete your mudra, activate it, and continue to reapply your debuffs and DoTs without dropping or clipping them.

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I want to discuss with that statement, actually when u think of it, its opposite? laggy mudra with 2.0 cooldown only means you will be clipping your GCD skills more becouse u have less time to cast mudras.

With lets say 2.15 GCD it only means u hit slower but harder (lets put aside dot/buff timers for now) becouse it only means that u have your poins in other stat than SkS, you have that extra .15 when u cast mudras so you have a lil more time for it, thus clipping less of your GCD skills.

Hoever, things get more complicated when u think not about 3 min parse but about whole 11 min fight (most new coils hard enrage is around 11 mins), what is more worth it? having hitting harder to save your GCD clipping and having lil longer cooldown, or putting out (60/2 compared to 60/2.15) 2 skills more every 1 min for totall of 22 skills more during whole fight.

ALSO, slower SkS helps you when u have to switch target, or avoid AoE becouse u have that extra lil time to get back to your target due to longer GCD. No coil is as static as dummy fight so we have to take that into consideration.
486 SkS is a LARGE investment in SkS consuming more than of your extra stats (whats left after caping acc)

Biggest question for me now is is it worth it putting our 486 SkS, right now i have 2.1 and i feel like cooldowns are putting out great for me almost no clipping, and i have no gear to get down to 2.15~ and see how harder i hit to compare parses.

Coz for now i only could test it half naked equipping off all my SkS equip to see if i would clip off dots/buffs but nothing of sort appeared, need longer parses maybe.

Idealy would be to test exact same rotations with same ilvl but one guy with high SkS and other one with high det.

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Originally Posted by PROBOUND

I figured i'd post this video here of Firana Magnus' rotation/opener (520 3min). He has a channel on twitch called Wabakabi Snatcher.

I'm not sure if it differs from any of the other rotations posted here so hopefully you guys can pick it apart. Firana has since obtained the i130 Magitek Daggers so his dummy parse will be substantially higher but this was with HA weapon, party buff and no potion apparently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5lTcltM_Uo

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My previous opening looked quite similar, its quite cool coz it leaves space for mistakes, runoffs etc, but it had 1 big disadventage.
First TA goes off after 30 sec of a fight when most of you party members are out of buffs (BfB, IR etc), iv been talking with DPSses from my FC and i decided to muve first TA to 16-20 second of the fight when most of our DPS are on buffs and during heavy burst damage. Ofcorst this varies from diffirent play styles / rotations of your party DPSses but it works for mine, we parsed bouth of my rotations with standard rotations of my DPS buddies, muving TA to first 20 sec showed increse in everyones DPS becouse of the reason i said above.

Lately i also started to practice my rotation without DE, becouse in 99% cases u will have WAR in your team and rotation comes out quite diffirent (expecially start of it) when u take into consideration that u dont have to put up DE.
We all know we cannot trust random WARs in keeping up debuff on boss, but i think most of us practice not for doing some stuff with randoms, but end game with your team where u can agree with your team WAR to keep up buff or not and then come from of that.

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Originally Posted by Tsuya

I want to discuss with that statement, actually when u think of it, its opposite? laggy mudra with 2.0 cooldown only means you will be clipping your GCD skills more becouse u have less time to cast mudras.

With lets say 2.15 GCD it only means u hit slower but harder (lets put aside dot/buff timers for now) becouse it only means that u have your poins in other stat than SkS, you have that extra .15 when u cast mudras so you have a lil more time for it, thus clipping less of your GCD skills.

Hoever, things get more complicated when u think not about 3 min parse but about whole 11 min fight (most new coils hard enrage is around 11 mins), what is more worth it? having hitting harder to save your GCD clipping and having lil longer cooldown, or putting out (60/2 compared to 60/2.15) 2 skills more every 1 min for totall of 22 skills more during whole fight.

ALSO, slower SkS helps you when u have to switch target, or avoid AoE becouse u have that extra lil time to get back to your target due to longer GCD. No coil is as static as dummy fight so we have to take that into consideration.
486 SkS is a LARGE investment in SkS consuming more than of your extra stats (whats left after caping acc)

Biggest question for me now is is it worth it putting our 486 SkS, right now i have 2.1 and i feel like cooldowns are putting out great for me almost no clipping, and i have no gear to get down to 2.15~ and see how harder i hit to compare parses.

Coz for now i only could test it half naked equipping off all my SkS equip to see if i would clip off dots/buffs but nothing of sort appeared, need longer parses maybe.

Idealy would be to test exact same rotations with same ilvl but one guy with high SkS and other one with high det.

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No, laggy mudra means you spend time wasting on GCD and your DoTs and DE debuff ticking off without you either on the Shadow Fang/Dancing Edge chain to keep it running.

I know this first hand because I started off with NIL skill speed and I have to EITHER clip it badly, such as more than 4s or more of Mutilate left, or only refresh it after it has dropped for about 1-2s

I have already provided you the math behind my parse. Higher skillspd means you can rack up time in surplus to spend it on mudras, which you will never complete the signs and activation within a GCD cool down. Every mudra you activate you are going to waste your GCD time. The only way to make up for it is to lower your GCD time so that you can do more weaponskills per min.

What you have said make sense for MNK but not for NIN. MNK doesn't have Mudras, they don't waste time not doing any GCD skills other than the exact same movements in dealing with mechanics which applies to NIN as well.

On the other hand, you can try doing some 20-30runs of 3:30mins parse (which is 3 Huton cycles including your initial activation of Huton), no food no pot no party buff, IL110 weapon with @ IL110 and see if you can break past 480 reliably on dummy without skillspeed.

I can only tell you that when I started playing NIN, I was struggling at 430-440 on dummy without skillspd. At the very night I was in a discussion with a fellow NIN and decided to try out skillspd, I was able to rack it up to 470 on dummy. And with time past and getting used to things and refining the opening, the numbers goes up slightly higher.

Anyways you mentioned about lower skillspd helps in coil, it is not because slower GCD helps in moving around. If you need 3s to move around to targets or dodging you still take that 3s to move around. Ideally you shouldn't spend too much time idling. Higher GCD or lower GCD doesn't affect the downtime you have to face if you have to. What it helps is probably conserve your TP in long fights.

I'm not a full time NIN so I can't comment about FCoB, but I am well aware that one in-game friend of mine, he cleared T13 as a NIN, he doesn't have high skillspeed, and he cleared without a BRD in his team.

I am sorry, Ooshima, you seem to be a very competent bard and ninja, but you have no clue about math.


I do not mean to insult you there, it is just that the the logic you try to apply is, well, illogic.

As others have pointed out, you are going to waste more off your GCD if you lag for mudras and lower your GCD. Take extreme exemples to convince yourself: let's assume that you take 3 second to complete a mudra, would you rather have a 1 sec GCD or a 3 sec one ? Well the second case let you do your full mudra during the Off GCD time, while in the second case you waste 2 GCD waiting for the mudra to finish.

The issue is you assume more actions is better, but you fail to take into account that if you do less actions you have more det / crit so each actions count more. If i have on one hand a GCD of 1 sec and on the other 3 sec, the 3 second GCD person must be assumed to deal 3 times more damage per action, as the loss in time is compensated by more crit chance and higher det.

You also mention that you have to let your dots fall sometime for 1-2 sec on time when using no skill speed. I agree. It is not an issue. If you use as much skill speed as you say you do, you are going to clip them sometime for 1-2 second instead, which is about the same loss. It will not be all the time, but you will not let them fall everytime in the previous case either. Trading one evil for another. I provided the math for this on the previous page, check it out again if you are unconvinced.

As far as i can tell, from my testing, for nins, and due to their lack of TP issues, det, crit and SS are all close to one another in term of dps increase. I would advise anyone to aim for just the accuracy they need above any other considerations. Then, from my testing, det seems the most efficient of the 3 stats, but only by a tiny margin (10-20% i would say), and thus i would rather take SS or crit over det if it means being where i want to be acc wise instead of 15-20 lower or higher. In any case, i have yet to see a compelling argument for stacking out SS until any kind of treshold -- 2.15 GCD works just fine, and so does 2.0, and so does anything in between ; i would not want to go much higher than 2.15 or much lower than 2.0, but since you can't anyway, it's a moot point.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Anyways you mentioned about lower skillspd helps in coil, it is not because slower GCD helps in moving around. If you need 3s to move around to targets or dodging you still take that 3s to move around. Ideally you shouldn't spend too much time idling. Higher GCD or lower GCD doesn't affect the downtime you have to face if you have to. What it helps is probably conserve your TP in long fights.

I'm not a full time NIN so I can't comment about FCoB, but I am well aware that one in-game friend of mine, he cleared T13 as a NIN, he doesn't have high skillspeed, and he cleared without a BRD in his team

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I never said it helps with coil, i merely stated that it could help with some eng dame content like coil.
Yes 3 sec break will always be 3 second break BUT, when u have longer GCD u kidna have more time to get from place to place, lets say adds pop and u drop last hit on boss then quickly muve to add, when ur GCD is 2.0 u have 2 sec to get there without loosing any dps, with 2.5 GCD u have 2.5 sec to get to add withous loosking gcd.

Anyhow diffirence between 2 and 2.15 is slight so i dont think we should get that argument into consideration anyway.

2.0 GCD seem to fit NIN becouse of TA 10 sec buff, REAL question im asking myself is:
Will these 19 extra skills during whole fight (11min) where every disengage from monster only make this number go smaller, will 1 extra skill put inside 10% incresed dmg every 60 sec(TA) (so ussually 11 times for whole fight), will it compensate huge Determination/Crit los due to going almost full of your secondary stats to acc/SS while leaving leftovers to Det/Crit?

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

.... Higher skillspd means you can rack up time in surplus to spend it on mudras, which you will never complete the signs and activation within a GCD cool down. Every mudra you activate you are going to waste your GCD time. The only way to make up for it is to lower your GCD time so that you can do more weaponskills per min.

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Yes, and no :D how to say it, you kidna look at it from opposite perspective? Idk how to explain
Technicly u right, but u forget that with lower SS you will be clipping your GCD less (due to it bein longer) and ALSO hitting harder, becouse u did put out 50% of your secondary stats to SS but to Det/Crit

So its kidna like bouth ways seems effective, you are right saying that additional SS will help you put out more skills per min but they will hit less, while less SS will make you mudras clip a lil less of GCD (but only a little, diffirence is not that big) but u will hit harder.
So its like fast but lighter or slower but harder. I cant really say wich one is a winner becouse theres just too many options to take into account, lag, boss disengage, switching targets, avoiding aoe and more.

Its not that im neglating your way, im just thinking out loud here becouse so far noone would provide parses from bouth sets, im talking about same person doing same rotations with 2 diffirent sets same ilvl.
SO bouth ways seems good in theory, but my question is wich one is better, unfortunetly i dont have gear to check that, one with SS and anotherone full det/crit.

Once i find some time to farm soldiery (propably this weekend) i try to collect 2 sets of equip and do some runs on dummy to see results.

So, in a nut-shell, unless you're wearing crafted, penta-melded gear, you'll be making a trade of DET/Crit for SkSp, resulting in extremely minimal DPS gains, if any. Movement in fights is irrelevant, since it applies to both cases.

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

So, in a nut-shell, unless you're wearing crafted, penta-melded gear, you'll be making a trade of DET/Crit for SkSp, resulting in extremely minimal DPS gains, if any. Movement in fights is irrelevant, since it applies to both cases.

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Pretty much this.

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

So, in a nut-shell, unless you're wearing crafted, penta-melded gear, you'll be making a trade of DET/Crit for SkSp, resulting in extremely minimal DPS gains, if any. Movement in fights is irrelevant, since it applies to both cases.

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And even then best to max crit and det first.

Firana Magnus has since updated his rotation and has provided 3 new videos for us to pick apart. It seems he employs at least a 10s wait before engaging for an early TA. He posted a thread on reddit so i'll just copy the info here.

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Recently discovered a new opening (Credit to Maya Tatsumi from Finale on Excalibur), so decided to do some tests with it.

Gear is i118 with the i130 weapon, 3 FCoil Drops and 1 crafted piece. I think I bring up my gear in the second video.

Would like some feedback on these and see if there's anything better that could be done within the opening.

Also how do people feel on opening with DoTs vs opening with Dancing Edge (Obviously in raid scenarios you have a warrior who opens with SE).

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552.08 - No Party, No Food, No X-Pots
563.16 - Party, Food, No X-Pots
581.37 - Party, Food, X-Pots

Edit Rotation for visual ref:
Huton (15 secs) > (IR)Spin > (Blood)Gust > Dancing(Water) > Spin(Trick) > Shadow (Reset) > Mutilate(Thunder) > Spin(Mug) > Gust(Jug) > AEOL> Spin > Gust > Dancing > Spin > Shadow > Spin > Gust >Thunder > AEOL > Mutilate > Spin> Gust > Dancing> Spin > Shadow> Spin > Gust> AEOL> Huton

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PROBOUND

Firana Magnus has since updated his rotation and has provided 3 new videos for us to pick apart. It seems he employs at least a 10s wait before engaging for an early TA.

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That's interesting... He opens with a fully buffed DE, TA, SF then Mutilate. He's waiting 15s after Huton, giving himself 5s to get DE up before casting Suton.

Currently, I'm opening with fully buffed Mutilate, SF, DE and last night was parsing 471 over 3:30~ @ a poorly optimized i112 with i110 weapon, no food, pots or party. I'll have to test that DE opener this evening and see what happens to that number.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zamii

The opener that i've eventually come up with allows me to spike to ~800 dps if its done right just on a dummy without a party or food (i110 weapon)

Huton (20s before pull ideally) > Suiton > Spinning Edge > Blood for Blood > Gust Slash > Internal Release > Dancing Edge > Dex pot > Spinning Edge > Trick Attack > Shadow Fang > Kassatsu > Mutilate > Raiton > Spinning Edge > Mug > Gust Slash > Jugulate > Aeolian Edge.

i realize this is longer than most openers, but its the only one i've made/found that actually involves potions and seems to work quite well for now, plus it doesn't waste time on b4b/IR by using them pre-pull like most do.

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Funny how when someone "credible" posts something and everyone starts to pay attention. This similar opening was posted a few pages back, but I guess he wasn't known enough for anyone to notice... ive used the opener above for everything, especially dps races like t12 where we push 4 bennus.

Just needs a bit of coordination with the tank pulling so that you suiton during the pull to have as much dps uptime as possible.

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Originally Posted by Zeviand

stuff

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Similar, yes. Any opening involving DoTs and Dancing Edge is similar. If Zamii want's to post vids or a parse screenshot showing that his opener nets higher encDPS, he's more than welcome.

yeah, i think a lot of people were using something quite similar for a suiton opener (http://goo.gl/f3NCWe). the ideal time to pull at is 5s left on ninjutsu, but you'd be starting your chain at around 4s (otherwise you're waiting a little bit after dancing edge for ninjutsu to come up) you use DE first instead of dots first since it aligns better in general with the rotation

if you plan to not use or save the x-pot, you can move IR up to be after GS to get the next AE to benefit from the 10% crit from it. otherwise you'd have to IR prepull to find a spot to fit that x-pot in. anyway, overall you get one set of fully buffed dots up during ta, and ta up about 8.5s into the pull. some missed windows for some of the first dot applications for some classes, but i think a lot of classes also refresh their dots in that 10s debuff timeframe

honestly, in a 3m-4m parse, your opening rotation isn't going to vastly affect your dps imo. as long as it's somewhat acceptable logically (potency wise generally), any optimized opener in a huton wait category (cast on pull, 15s, 10s, 5s) that would increase your personal dps by more than 1% (like a lucky crit streak can) would be surprising to me. it's why i mentioned in the first few pages of the thread that it's best to just adjust your opener to benefit your raid's dot applications/burst/reapplication the most; working your TA around your raid's burst/dot application windows is the best dps contribution overall imo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

Similar, yes. Any opening involving DoTs and Dancing Edge is similar. If Zamii want's to post vids or a parse screenshot showing that his opener nets higher encDPS, he's more than welcome.

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i would, but since i live in australia my jutsu latency is horrible, so obviously im not going to pull the same dps as someone with a somewhat decent ping, and sadly all anyone cares about is the raw numbers, and it seems as if no one wants to do the trial themselves.