NIN Opener / Rotation

[Ehayte]

Hi guys, this is what I have been using for my opener and I wonder if anyone has any thoughts about how to modify it? I am fine with putting in a few hours perfecting. I still screw this one up every once in a while:

Huton is up to start, obviously:

(Blood for Blood) (Internal Release) (Suiton) > Spinning Edge > (Trick Attack) > Shadow Fang > (Kassatsu) > Mutilate > (Raiton) > Spinning Edge > (Mug) > Gust Slash > (Juggulate) > AS/DE

From there I start into Shadow Fang combo if it has less than 4 seconds, and I will refresh Mutilate when I can. Ninjitsu from there goes Huton>Suiton>Raiton and I use Kassatsus for extra Raitons right after any Ninjitsu if it is up.

Anything I'm missing here, or any reason to try get in DE before I put up SF and Mutilate? I feel like the extra 3 GCDs that they will be ticking would make up for the 10% buff. I also think that the buff isn't applied to the DoT ticks, correct?

The premise is to get up both dots and a Kassatsu'ed Raiton before I lose BFB/IR/TA.

I'm leading all of my PUGs in enmity (which doesn't mean I'm topping DPS due to quelling, but it means I'm at least relatively doing well), and will probably be going to T9 for the first time on NIN tonight with my static (instead of me going on MNK).

Thanks in advance!

[Kenji1134]

Remember that DoT ticks are not affected by resistance down and vulnerability debuffs on mobs.
So only the initial 60 potency of Mutilate, and the 200 Potency of Shadow Fang will be affected.
So it is probably worth getting Dancing Edge up before Shadow Fang, but only a 6 potency increase for Mutilate.

[Alistaire]

Remember that DoT ticks are not affected by resistance down and vulnerability debuffs on mobs.
So only the initial 60 potency of Mutilate, and the 200 Potency of Shadow Fang will be affected.
So it is probably worth getting Dancing Edge up before Shadow Fang, but only a 6 potency increase for Mutilate.

If by vulnerability debuffs you mean trick attack, yes dot ticks are affected, the dot amount is also set at the first of it so if you shadow fang/mutilate while trick attack is up, it's 10% more for every tick even after TA wears. Dummy-tested.

isnt that the same as say Shadow Flare have no use in single target battle (assume boss fight)?

Doton : Potency 30, 24s
Shadow Flare: Potency 25, 30s

it is as good as Shadow Flare, I don't know why you say it is not worth it

Because shadow flare isn't on any shared timers (except preventing sch from using sacred soil which you wouldn't do on a single target anyway)

Every 20 seconds you get 1 option: to Doton for 240 potency which may not even all get applied, or raiton for 360 potency (when you don't need to use it for suiton/huton). Clear case. Even with 2 mobs they both have to live 18 seconds just to equal a raiton.

Edit: and with any # of mobs they have to live an average of 6 ticks to equal katon. 7 to beat it, and it's only 8 ticks. It's really only when you know for sure 3+ mobs will last full duration.

[Kaze3434]

Remember that DoT ticks are not affected by resistance down and vulnerability debuffs on mobs.
So only the initial 60 potency of Mutilate, and the 200 Potency of Shadow Fang will be affected.
So it is probably worth getting Dancing Edge up before Shadow Fang, but only a 6 potency increase for Mutilate.

looked thru and no one brought it up, but dots are affected by vul down debuff. dots from all sources except potions.

[Cynric]

This is what i've been doing with pretty good success . Huton prepull >(10s is best start , 10s gives you an extra raiton without losing huton for even one second, anymore than 11 s before start and the extra raiton will cause you to lose huton for a bit) Mutilate > Spin > Shadow > Spin(Blood) > Gust(Internal) > Dancing(Suiton)> Spin(trick)>Shadow(Kassatsu)>Mutilate(Raiton)>Spin(Jugulate)>Gust(Mug)>Aeolian(TA+IR end) > Spin(B4B end) > Gust > Dancing reapply

Can add Xpot/mega pot of dex after first shadow fang for that to be up for the DoT snapshot as well. With this I get a good potency start, all DoT's snapshotted with full buffs (blood,Internal,potion,trick) and you get to have blood +TA+ IR+ DE up for the full Aeolian edge combo + DoTs.

[Levis]

This is what i've been doing with pretty good success . Huton prepull >(10s is best start , 10s gives you an extra raiton without losing huton for even one second, anymore than 11 s before start and the extra raiton will cause you to lose huton for a bit) Mutilate > Spin > Shadow > Spin(Blood) > Gust(Internal) > Dancing(Suiton)> Spin(trick)>Shadow(Kassatsu)>Mutilate(Raiton)>Spin(Jugulate)>Gust(Mug)>Aeolian(TA+IR end) > Spin(B4B end) > Gust > Dancing reapply

Can add Xpot/mega pot of dex after first shadow fang for that to be up for the DoT snapshot as well. With this I get a good potency start, all DoT's snapshotted with full buffs (blood,Internal,potion,trick) and you get to have blood +TA+ IR up for the full Aeolian edge combo + DoTs.

Pretty much this! I have never used potions yet, but I want to try one as my best Raiton so far was a 1313 crit (Only ilvl97 also). Only difference is I tend to use Mug after my first mutilate while the GCD is going.

[Cynric]

Pretty much this! I have never used potions yet, but I want to try one as my best Raiton so far was a 1313 crit (Only ilvl97 also). Only difference is I tend to use Mug after my first mutilate while the GCD is going.

Yeah with that opener I gave if you pop xpot/mega pot after first shadow the Kassatsu - raiton is buffed by your pot as well. Should have 2ish seconds left on medicated buff. So go for it and give it a try xD.
I'd say jugulate and mug are pretty much either or for when to do them. In my experience they cooldown at about the same time (once mug actually cools down anyway)

[Ehayte]

Huton prepull >(10s is best start , 10s gives you an extra raiton without losing huton for even one second, anymore than 11 s before start and the extra raiton will cause you to lose huton for a bit)

How do you figure? Huton is 70s, so as long as you can Kassatsu > Ration in less than 10s you should never drop Huton.

Mutilate > Spin > Shadow > Spin(Blood) > Gust(Internal) > Dancing(Suiton)> Spin(trick)>Shadow(Kassatsu)>Mutilate(Raiton)>Spin(Jugulate)>Gust(Mug)>Aeolian(TA+IR end) > Spin(B4B end) > Gust > Dancing reapply

Eh... I disagree with putting up Mutilate and SF first without any buffs up at all, and then clipping them after you get your CDs up. There is no ramp-up for NIN so there is no reason not to just apply your buffs at the get-go. However I don't have the desire to do the math and I don't have a parser so I can't test.

[Cynric]

snip

First we'll go with the huton question. 70s from huton 50s = Suiton reset CD with Kassatsu = Raiton @ 40 s, 20 s ish = Next mudra Raiton @ 20s with a CD of 20 s your huton will expire if you do it too late at this point during your normal GCD rotation slightly before huton can be reapplied. This is using my rotation of course. I timed everything to be pretty much up at the same time but there isn't any leeway in doing anything, if you mess up the timers will get thrown off.

Next to mutilate and shadow vs the mrhappy rotation you're using. First off the rotation you posted requires 15s? before pull, mine only needs 10 and has a full 20 second window either way, next I still get all my full buffs up with my dots and my full damage combo, plus the dancing reapply will be just barely on if you do it fast enough. So nothing falls off at all.

16s before Mutilate is reapplied, 10 s before Shadow Fang is reapplied. So you get more damage out of that. Mutilate 210 pot before reapply, 320 pot on Shadow Fang before reapply, 150 pot on the Spin, not to mention I get zero wasted buff time plus dots up before I even buff my 2nd set of dots and my full damage combo.

Wasting buff time by just throwing them up is never a good idea =/

You waste however much time without hitting the mob with early buffs, plus you could get a full 720 potency out before even using Trick , Kass, Rai, Sui, Blood, IR, and having all of your moves buffed by everything even a potion if you want.

basically my rotation does everything yours does but without wasting any up time on buff/debuff/potion/OGCD/GCD/ The burst just starts a few seconds later but wastes nothing.

[Ehayte]

Interesting points and too much for me to wrap my head around right now (at work), but I'm not entirely convinced applying DoTs before buffs given that timing is most appropriate with the whole scope included... hmmmm.