Why is tanking so rough for new players?

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

I found the marking menu that FFXIV doesn't even bring up.

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When you start maurader or gladiator quests or any time after the game doesn't even tell you or advise you to mark. That's the problem, are we suppose to magically know about marking? Much less where to find the marking menu?

You're right though, I started tanking like 3 weeks ago and the marking makes it easier, specially in the low level dungeons. For high level dungeons most tanks have many skills for aoe aggroing so marking is not too required.

And also, you have no right to call anyone lazy when you don't know their circumstance.

If they can't hold hate, they aren't spamming flash enough, and both DPS are attacking separate targets instead of focusing.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

The only tanks I see unable to hold hate are the ones who aren't even trying/doing it wrong.

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This thing, say by someone that doesn't even tried to run a Tank? You serious?

Tank at low level is quite non-existant, and as now as the game is mature enough to have quite often endgame players on low level duties, tanking them is almost impossible.

BLM got some adjustments that almost doubled their aggro, and if a i110 BLM is with a i20 Tank, he just needs sit down and wait all the time if don't want get aggro. Or else, burn mobs off not caring the aggro, as long as they will hardly die there.

And all people that are "bla blablah l2tank", I question if they ever tried to run a tank from scratch, or are already i110 and bashing people here as a revenge of the same bashing they got when leveling their tank when was crappy ilevel.

Then, we can add all jerks who go for hit the mobs in a different order than you marked, at the sole scope of trolling you: an expert tank will let them eat their mobs and ask healer don't heal them. A beginner will try to get hate back without luck and may be abort tanking, thinking to just be not good.

It is NOT tanking rough, they are the players, that have (questionable) fun with the tank.

Because tank low-level skills do not generate enmity fast enough in proportion to the amount of damage (and therefore enmity) generated by dps (or healing by healers). Also because a level-synced player will rip hate off a lower-level, lesser-geared tank (almost) no matter what, unless they purposely slow down and watch their own aggro.

And because a tank is expected to lead the way in a dungeon and know the mechanics even if it's his first time there.

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

stuff

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We can just sum it up nice and neat. The problem is that most dps (not all) think that all they need to do is plow into what ever mob and the tank needs to hold hate. I see a lot of sux tank post. I think most people do not realize that everyone has a job. Tanks job is to hold hate to the best of his / her ability while doing mechanics. The dps job is to dps to the best of his / her ability w/o taking hate while doing mechanics. Healers is the same thing. Everyone not just the tank needs to watch hate.

I do understand that end game content we have massive dps checks and we have to push as hard as we can. The simple fact is in either low lvl or end game if the tank loses aggro you have a good chance of a wipe. So watch your hate.

I still feel that the job of the tank is the hardest.

Between dodging, stunning, using skills that lower damage taken, aggro, and moving bosses around. Compared to simple damage to bosses that the DPS do, that's a lot.

I still remember the times I've used stuff like holmgang or Inner beast to save us from wiping

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

This thing, say by someone that doesn't even tried to run a Tank? You serious?

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You're right, this is my only character. It's not like I have 7 others, and three more that I've since deleted.

I've also never seen the difference between good and bad tanks in my hundreds of dungeons as a healer. Nope.

I spam flash to about 50% hp then spam riot blade rotation. By the end of a target's hp I just stun-lock'em.

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

snip.

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But getting hate for MRD is so easy especially if u have flash, which would be unlocked if you want to get WAR anyway. You have both TP and MP as yer friend. I dont even use voke until around stone vigil and so on. Provoke gives me further range to pull, works so nice in AV.
I do know the sad part of tanking, i'm playing in both chaos and elemental data center, the THM, in spite of their high int cant count # mark in chaos.. And most people who's playing with controller are too lazy to change target, said it's too much of a hassle, so let's just hit the closest mob.
When it's the community which is the one at fault, its not fair to put all the blame to developers
The elemental mostly use sleep strategy, so i find it suprising if i dont put mark, the whm or thm will mark em up.

There is of course, lack explanation of how one create emnity, the "buffed" enmity skill have only "increase enmity" written in their desc.. While provoke is giving "gesture thretenly, increasing enmity in target".. You just wont know how they work unless you spend hours and hours to figure em out, somebody tell you, or you are a very bright person who instantly know how to use them properly..

Losing aggro is not only caused by bad tanks, the dps might be at fault too, especially when running low level dungeons, dps should always pay extra attention on aggro gauge, if it is yellow, target the one shows green. instead of biotching how bad the tanks are, learn how to play your class better and work as a group.

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Originally Posted by Sadana

Because tank low-level skills do not generate enmity fast enough in proportion to the amount of damage (and therefore enmity) generated by dps (or healing by healers). Also because a level-synced player will rip hate off a lower-level, lesser-geared tank (almost) no matter what, unless they purposely slow down and watch their own aggro.

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This is not true, if you know what you are doing they wont be ripping hate off unless they start dpsing it before you even engage. On low levels it is cutting it close tho.

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Originally Posted by Sadana

And because a tank is expected to lead the way in a dungeon and know the mechanics even if it's his first time there.

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This IS true though but people will just have to bear with a tank if its his first time and help him out until hes comfortable with the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Wizhard

This is not true, if you know what you are doing they wont be ripping hate off unless they start dpsing it before you even engage.

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False.
I did Haukke Manor yesterday, with a fresh fellow tank. I was synced and he was at the bare minimum of level requirement to enter the dungeon.
As a BLM, I had to constantly stop casting, because my enmity bar was 1 pixel away from being filled.

The tank was doing a good rotation and his gameplay was fine. I just had a few more levels and his gear wasn't great... but that's completly expected in low level dungeons.

So yeah, saying that "you can hold aggro if you know what you're doing" isn't true.
You have to be at the maximum level with the best available gear for that. Especially for a GLA/PLD.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

False.
I did Haukke Manor yesterday, with a fresh fellow tank. I was synced and he was at the bare minimum of level requirement to enter the dungeon.
As a BLM, I had to constantly stop casting, because my enmity bar was 1 pixel away from being filled.

The tank was doing a good rotation and his gameplay was fine. I just had a few more levels and his gear wasn't great... but that's completly expected in low level dungeons.

So yeah, saying that "you can hold aggro if you know what you're doing" isn't true.
You have to be at the maximum level with the best available gear for that. Especially for a GLA/PLD.

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But what was that tank wearing/wielding? Was he wielding a NQ Elm Macuahuitl (i28) and a NQ Iron Kite Shield (i27) while wearing a NQ Heavy Iron Armor(i25) set? or was he wearing a mishmash of Plundered (i17), Iron (i20 to i23), Doctore's (i22) and Thousand Maw's gear (i26) with an Iron Spatha(i24) and a Warded Round Shield(i17)?

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Originally Posted by Kyros

tank not wearing Level-appropriate gear

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Yes but if the synced level is 18 and the tank level is 15 because they are new, even the best level 15 tank gear may not be enough and that is assuming that a new player just learning the game that decided to play a tank would know that having anything less than perfect gear when your that far under the DPS level is going to be impossible to keep agro. If you want to do your story missions as a Dps/healer then queing at level 15 the second you get the mission is doable, but try that with a tank and you will be left wondering why you have so much trouble holding hate, only to find out that tanks need to burn gil on gear when no other class does and probably be 1-2 levels above the min.

The problem most newbie tanks will encounter is that tanks require alot more attention to gear than any other class and there is nothing to warn them about this before entering their first dungeons.

Low level is much tougher than higher levels if you play it the same but overall its not that difficult. As Maruader you dont need to have provoke for the low levels. You have overpower which i find is much better skill overall to hold hate. Also marking targets for attack priority helps immensely because the DPS will attack the same target(most of the time). Plus as an awesome bonus, you get defiance at level 30 whereas paladin gets shield oath at 40 and once you get that ability tanking becomes GG ez mode.

Learning a new instance, dungeon, trial by itself is a challenge. Learning to tank at the same time just made it exponentially harder. The only comparable to it is learning to heal while learning a new dungeon, because in both the case of the tank and healer if either one fails the odds of wiping rapidly approaches 100%. But ultimately, it is harder on tank, because the tank must lead or initiate the encounters. So DPS do yourself and the tank a favor, learn to throttle your DPS and control your aggro, and do not verbally abuse the tank.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

In levelsync gear drops down to the equivalent of NQ of the synced level. In Hakku Manor, all of an i110 DpS' gear ends up with the stats of NQ i31 gear.

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NQ & HQ gear both have the same stat caps. It's just that HQ gear is already at that stat cap (primary stats at least) while NQ gear will need some primary stat melds to hit the cap.


Anyhow, low level tanking is significantly more difficult before you get halone/butcher's block and shield oath/defiance. It's not impossible by any stretch, but it is noticeably more difficult. Combined with the lack of direction by the vast majority of the class quests for GLD/MRD is why new tanks often struggle. It also doesn't help when level sync'd dps do silly crap like blowing all their cooldowns before the tank has established agro.

I think they should consider boosting the enmity multiplier of savage/sunder to 5x from 3x. Would help out the new tanks a little bit, and put low level tanking a little closer to on par with what they will experience after they have their primary enmity abilities.

Also has the minor benefit of making skull sunder a slightly more useful cross class ability for DRG/MNK if they ever feel like playing pseudo tank.