Primal mounts and their effect on player health/sanity.

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

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I don't think anyone would be resentful of others for a vanity item - I've yet to see anyone in my server call out anyone in say with mean-spirited comments about them obtaining a vanity item. Thankfully, we play a game where there are no "GOD Players" - i.e. players that everyone follows around and grovels at because of their "accomplishments" (commending is different to "Well LeetLeroy is God in this area, so he knows what he's talking about").

I think we're QQing at RNG - the mother of all baneful mistresses - and trying to understand why Derplina #1 got lucky versus Derplina #2. I reckon if FFXIV pumped out more vanity items a month like other MMO's, this would help tie over the yuppies like myself, admittedly, until we get lucky with the super rare stuff - and you'd see less QQ.

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Originally Posted by PrimeEvilPanda

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Yeah I guess there would be less of these threads if they added vanity stuff more frequently.

If they do, I hope it has a similar drop rate because in my opinion, an MMO needs items which are rare and RNG based. These items of course should not make you stronger/better.

However, I do think most people QQ because they just want it and they will never say out loud they can't have it someone else does have it. Read some of these posts, the jealousy is all over them.

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Originally Posted by lololink

What's the point in having an item that only 10 people will ever have ?

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Welcome to good MMORPGs - where some items can be and should be rare and not everyone is entitled to it. If you hadn't noticed by now once MMOs starts giving everyone everything the companies have been having a hard time keeping content life span lengthy and well designed, this includes even Blizzard.

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It does not give any reason to farm a boss, it is not rewarding since it's all luck based.

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Extreme Primals you can get - Accessories and Weapons (guaranteed drops aside ramuh weapons I believe), with the side benefit of Mirrors (Levi) and Mounts (all ex primals.) You farm them for their main drops as you will always benefit farming the primal.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Welcome to good MMORPGs - where some items can be and should be rare and not everyone is entitled to it. If you hadn't noticed by now once MMOs starts giving everyone everything the companies have been having a hard time keeping content life span lengthy and well designed, this includes even Blizzard.

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I will take examples : The Priest staff and Hunter bow in WoW, a few people had these, they were challenging, long, difficult quests, same goes for legendary weapons, only a few people had these, they were rare but you could have them if you worked for them and it's rewarding.

These mounts have a too low RNG to really be farmed, you have to farm the primal all the time and then fight with 7 players to have them, it's just pure luck.

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Originally Posted by lololink

I will take examples : The Priest staff and Hunter bow in WoW, a few people had these, they were challenging, long, difficult quests, same goes for legendary weapons, only a few people had these, they were rare but you could have them if you worked for them and it's rewarding.

These mounts have a too low RNG to really be farmed, you have to farm the primal all the time and then fight with 7 players to have them, it's just pure luck.

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Bad comparison. A better comparison would be the Deathcharger from Stratholme. But we already talked about that. The reason your example was bad is that we're talking about vanity items, those weapons, were usable items. That's why, even though rare, you could work for them.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Bad comparison. A better comparison would be the Deathcharger from Stratholme. But we already talked about that. The reason your example was bad is that we're talking about vanity items, those weapons, were usable items. That's why, even though rare, you could work for them.

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The mount for defeating Yog'saron 0 then. Hard to get, but sure to get. It's vanity.

I really don't see why they have to make primal mounts so luck dependent. I'd much rather work for it. Like beat Levi EX 200 or even 500 times. I'd much rather see people that put in the time earn things then some lottery BS where you can do it 2000 times and never even see one drop just cause you have bad luck while some other guy gets it on their 2nd try... I can understand casuals not liking that idea so maybe it would be nice if we could have it both ways. As in you either get lucky or you grind it out. But as it stands now this isn't a grind, just playing the RNG slot machines over and over hoping for the jackpot luck...

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Originally Posted by lololink

The mount for defeating Yog'saron 0 then. Hard to get, but sure to get. It's vanity.

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That was only one of the ones you needed. You needed all the other Ulduar achieves for the mount. I should know, I have it. And that's the thing, even WITH those mounts, there are other mounts in WoW that are still locked behind low chance RNG.

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Originally Posted by Kota_Foxfrey

I really don't see why they have to make primal mounts so luck dependent. I'd much rather work for it. Like beat Levi EX 200 or even 500 times. I'd much rather see people that put in the time earn things then some lottery BS where you can do it 2000 times and never even see one drop just cause you have bad luck while some other guy gets it on their 2nd try... I can understand casuals not liking that idea so maybe it would be nice if we could have it both ways. As in you either get lucky or you grind it out. But as it stands now this isn't a grind, just playing the RNG slot machines over and over hoping for the jackpot luck...

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That's because you're looking at it the wrong way. You see it as something you're entitled to and/or should be able to get no matter what, when it's simply a bonus item. People really need to stop trying to make rare items not rare. People think it's good to make it easier for them to get when it actually hurts the game for everyone being able to get everything easily.

So, farm them if you want, but they're rare for a reason. You just need to deal with it.

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Originally Posted by ispano

That was only one of the ones you needed. You needed all the other Ulduar achieves for the mount. I should know, I have it. And that's the thing, even WITH those mounts, there are other mounts in WoW that are still locked behind low chance RNG.

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And so what ? I'm saying that there are others means for a mount to be rare than pure RNG and they shouldn't put items that you can only get if you are super lucky, and it's fair, primal mounts right now aren't fair.
That's not because WoW did it that it's a good thing to do.

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Originally Posted by lololink

And so what ? I'm saying that there are others means for a mount to be rare than pure RNG and they shouldn't put items that you can only get if you are super lucky, and it's fair, primal mounts right now aren't fair.
That's not because WoW did it that it's a good thing to do.

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It certainly IS a good thing to do. Do you know the difference between say the Ironbound Proto-drake and Deathcharger's Reins? The first is from that Ulduar, 25 man Achievement. Second is Stratholme, 1% drop chance. The first is a joke to get now, and is no longer special. Deathcharger is still a rarity for the most part.

So it most certainly is fair. The fault in your thinking is that you feel you should be able to get ANYTHING in the game within a short time frame, otherwise it's not fair. But it is.

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Originally Posted by ispano

It certainly IS a good thing to do. Do you know the difference between say the Ironbound Proto-drake and Deathcharger's Reins? The first is from that Ulduar, 25 man Achievement. Second is Stratholme, 1% drop chance. The first is a joke to get now, and is no longer special. Deathcharger is still a rarity for the most part.

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That's because of WoW raids that are worthless once the level cap is raised.

If they make this : Titan EX Challenge : Defeat Titan EX while item sync'd at ilvl 75 or with an average ilvl of 75 or without item with and ilvl > to 75. Will makes the mounts have a 100 % chance to drop.
This will be forever challenging.

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Originally Posted by ispano

That's because you're looking at it the wrong way. You see it as something you're entitled to and/or should be able to get no matter what, when it's simply a bonus item. People really need to stop trying to make rare items not rare. People think it's good to make it easier for them to get when it actually hurts the game for everyone being able to get everything easily.

So, farm them if you want, but they're rare for a reason. You just need to deal with it.

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I don't see why making something into a grind will make it not rare. It really depends on how long the grind for that reward is and the % of people willing to do it to get that reward. If you make it long enough it is still rare. Why should there be items in a game that you can't work for? What's wrong with wanting stuff and being willing to work for it instead of being given it due to lucky rng?

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Originally Posted by Jynx

People are unable to accept that they can't have everything in the game.

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I'd say it's people unable to accept that they don't need to have everything in the game.

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Originally Posted by lololink

That's because of WoW raids that are worthless once the level cap is raised.

If they make this : Titan EX Challenge : Defeat Titan EX while item sync'd at ilvl 75 or with an average ilvl of 75 or without item with and ilvl > to 75. Will makes the mounts have a 100 % chance to drop.
This will be forever challenging.

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You mean like Coil? Once we get our level cap raised, the same will happen here.

I will say it as many times as needed. You are looking at it wrong. You don't like it because you can't easily work towards it. But that's the entire POINT of it. It's meant to be a random reward that someone gets. A bonus that just happens. You need to stop feeling you are entitled to it before you'll ever understand.

Being like a lottery or raffle is by design, so as I said before, deal with it.

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Originally Posted by ispano

You mean like Coil? Once we get our level cap raised, the same will happen here.

I will say it as many times as needed. You are looking at it wrong. You don't like it because you can't easily work towards it. But that's the entire POINT of it. It's meant to be a random reward that someone gets. A bonus that just happens. You need to stop feeling you are entitled to it before you'll ever understand.

Being like a lottery or raffle is by design, so as I said before, deal with it.

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Sorry i thought i was playing Final Fantasy, not lottery simulator online 2014. Bad design is bad, it can be working as intended it's still bad.

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Originally Posted by lololink

Sorry i thought i was playing Final Fantasy, not lottery simulator online 2014. Bad design is bad, it can be working as intended it's still bad.

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you are playig neither of these two.
you are playing a MMO.
deal with it.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Being like a lottery or raffle is by design, so as I said before, deal with it.

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Thanks for letting us all know what they meant and intended with their game design. All that insider info you got. Here I was thinking they all got drunk and said "Ehh the hell with reason or logic, that's no fun. Let's just pick our ideas for the future of the game randomly out of a hat. That seems like a good idea, right? Yeah, everybody loves luck based things. Then we can all go get pizza. Sweet!"

I mean it's not like they wanted to motivate players to "get rewards" by going back and doing old content that they normally wouldn't care about, right? Surely not, it's just a item that is meant to be got by lucky happen stance obviously and no one should care about it otherwise and if they do, they can just "deal with it". *ends /sarcasm*

If you know someone who is RNJesus, take them with you for better luck. Two people in my static are like that. They were the first to get all their ATMA and one of them got the Opo-opo minion before they put it in a chest. Well we have been farming Garuda EX once a week for a while now and out of five wins we got two Nightmare mount drops.

These mounts are intended to be rare items for players who have already cleared the extreme primal battles, to incentivize players to continue and challenge these fights. At this time there are no plans to make any adjustments to the primal mounts, but if anything changes we will be sure to update you.

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Originally Posted by Camate

These mounts are intended to be rare items for players who have already cleared the extreme primal battles, to incentivize players to continue and challenge these fights. At this time there are no plans to make any adjustments to the primal mounts, but if anything changes we will be sure to update you.

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Except it doesn't work because a 1% (or however low it is) drop which you have to roll against 7 other players to get feels so intangible almost nobody does the primals solely for mounts.

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Originally Posted by SongJoohee

Except it doesn't work because a 1% (or however low it is) drop which you have to roll against 7 other players to get feels so intangible almost nobody does the primals solely for mounts.

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The point is they are RARE because they want to give people incentive to KEEP doing them for it, since people who want nothing else from it will have no incentive to help. or do the fight. you'll have to still deal with the RNG.

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Originally Posted by Volcano

The point is they are RARE because they want to give people incentive to KEEP doing them for it, since people who want nothing else from it will have no incentive to help. or do the fight. you'll have to still deal with the RNG.

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It's better to have the drop rate lower 8 times and drop 8 of them in 1 defeat than what it currently is. Because the point is about completing with 7 other ppl lotting them. It's called unfairness and randomness greater than the rareness.

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Originally Posted by Volcano

The point is they are RARE because they want to give people incentive to KEEP doing them for it, since people who want nothing else from it will have no incentive to help. or do the fight. you'll have to still deal with the RNG.

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and his point was that their rarity is making people turn away from mount farming, not encouraging them to do it.
It's true as well, you'll barely ever see a mount farming pt in a PF, maybe once a week, and it barely ever fills. If the mounts were doing their jobs, you'd see them in PF more often, but you don't.

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

and his point was that their rarity is making people turn away from mount farming, not encouraging them to do it.
It's true as well, you'll barely ever see a mount farming pt in a PF, maybe once a week, and it barely ever fills. If the mounts were doing their jobs, you'd see them in PF more often, but you don't.

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Maybe if they drop materials that can be used to make primal mounts and armor. I bet primal armor would drive a lot of players into it lol. Rare and hard to come by doesn't have to = RNG, though it certainly can do that job (not directed at you Saeed).

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Originally Posted by Camate

These mounts are intended to be rare items for players who have already cleared the extreme primal battles, to incentivize players to continue and challenge these fights. At this time there are no plans to make any adjustments to the primal mounts, but if anything changes we will be sure to update you.

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I would like the mounts but with the low drop rate and outdated gear drops it's just not worth the time.

Out of all the times I've done Extremes, I've only seen the nightmare mount three of four times, and I've never seen the other mounts (ponies) drop. There comes a certain point where farming the fight just isn't logical... unless you REALLY want it that much, and by that point it will make you a little bit insane in the process. I really wanted the nightmare mount, for example, back when it was the only rare mount... but I wasn't going to farm for it because I'd have to first see it drop, THEN roll against seven other people to win it. You could say, "Why not form up a mount farming party and farm it until everyone gets one?" Well, the mount is so rare that this method just doesn't make sense. It's for this same reason that I never wanted to farm a Leviathan mirror, let alone the fact that the mirror itself was (mostly) for vanity, as there were better weapons available at the time. I did happen to win the nightmare mount at one point, but that was incredible luck/rng/etc.

I'm not knocking the rare mounts... I think they're a cool incentive to do these fights. But, I agree that they are *too* rare for most people to even want to bother with them. Of course, IF it drops, everyone's going to roll... but who is really going to go out of their way day in and day out to get these mounts? I know a few months ago it was hinted at that there would be some sort of 'prize' (whether it be a title or otherwise -- we don't know) for getting all the ponies. If that truly is the case, some players will drive themselves insane getting them.

I understand SE's reasons for not adjusting the drop rate. It would, in a way, devalue those players who have already obtained these mounts. However -- should SE release more mounts of this nature, I hope they will consider different drop rates that make some rare mounts more or less rare than these. Some diversity IS nice.

If they really thought this would incentivize doing the primal fights more often, why not just tie them to achievements like the tank mounts? That way, those that really want it would go out of their way to fight those same old pointless fights X number of times and at least see some meaningful progress toward the mount(s). Even the less hardcore players would probably join a primal fight every now and then, since at least they'd be working towards it and eventually get one as well.

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

and his point was that their rarity is making people turn away from mount farming, not encouraging them to do it.
It's true as well, you'll barely ever see a mount farming pt in a PF, maybe once a week, and it barely ever fills. If the mounts were doing their jobs, you'd see them in PF more often, but you don't.

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and MY point is if it was a 100% drop and everyone had it then no one would do the fight at all, ever again. no one ever "goes" for the mount due to its rarity but if they don't actually have a mount they MAY do it in hopes it will drop.

I know a few people who do it only for mounts as they don't want anything else from it.

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Originally Posted by Ryuko

It would, in a way, devalue those players who have already obtained these mounts.

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I just had to chime in.

You do realize that in theory, the echo buff does just that to all of the content they implement it in.


I'm actually okay with them "devaluing" the incredibly lucky in the same way they devalue things like Coil T5 weapons and Unweathered soldiery equipment.

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Originally Posted by Camate

These mounts are intended to be rare items for players who have already cleared the extreme primal battles, to incentivize players to continue and challenge these fights. At this time there are no plans to make any adjustments to the primal mounts, but if anything changes we will be sure to update you.

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should have been rephrased as:

These mounts are intended to be rare items for 12.5% of the players who have already cleared the extreme primal battles, to incentivize players to continue and challenge these fights. At this time there are no plans to make any adjustments to the primal mounts, but if anything changes we will be sure to update you.

Since only 1 of the 8 participants will win the loot after all the hard work they have been through.

This would be good in design theory if it actually kept players coming back to the old EX content. They aren't, because a pitiful chance for a weird looking horse isn't worth the time these players could be spending doing other things.

This also doesn't answer the problem of players without clears not being able to find effective clear groups because of stratification due to "farming" vs. "clearing" actually having rapidly increased since the worthless 100 myth bonus was put in.

Holy crap: 1%? And i thought Atma's were bad. Being punished by constant terrible RNG rolls really discourages me from even experiencing this content. Nothing is guaranteed with a RNG. In theory, if you do Titan EX 100 times, one of those times you're bound to get it once. But in reality, you could do it for 1000 times and still not get it. While one person is bragging about how he cleared the boss fight and showing off his new mount, he didn't work more than the guy who has done it 30 more times. He just got luckier than all them. Same with Atmas.

Core content such that creates ridiculous amounts of grinding is discouraging when its based randomly.

It's nice that the primal mounts exist, but yeah, I think the drop rate on them is far too low to actually encourage people to replay fights for them. Most people I know with a primal mount just happened to luck into getting one on their runs for weapons or accessories.

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Originally Posted by ispano

It certainly IS a good thing to do. Do you know the difference between say the Ironbound Proto-drake and Deathcharger's Reins? The first is from that Ulduar, 25 man Achievement. Second is Stratholme, 1% drop chance. The first is a joke to get now, and is no longer special. Deathcharger is still a rarity for the most part.

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Just really want to say this, I have both of those mounts among the other 143 I have in wow, I was also pretty much also first on server with Enbarr (lev ex mount) XD, but what I dont understand more with this playerbase, aside from the drop rate, why are people have so much hatred in competing with other players, Ive never seen this level of hatred, seriously people, try competing for stuff against 24 other people, even then that didnt bother me at all, but this, with competing with just 7 other people, people are up in arms.

If you are guaranteed to get the mount, sure, I'll keep doing the fights even with the extremely low drop rate. Fighting against 7 others, with some being new to the fight? ... forget about it.

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Originally Posted by Camate

These mounts are intended to be rare items for players who have already cleared the extreme primal battles, to incentivize players to continue and challenge these fights. At this time there are no plans to make any adjustments to the primal mounts, but if anything changes we will be sure to update you.

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Thanks. I'll make sure never to waste my time helping others clear these fights until you update me.

Nothing wrong with rare mounts.

i have done LEX like 250 times, maybe, and i havent seen any pony, so, i dont care about this mounts, i dont care about ATMA or Novus, i just dont have time for that

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Originally Posted by Camate

These mounts are intended to be rare items for players who have already cleared the extreme primal battles, to incentivize players to continue and challenge these fights. At this time there are no plans to make any adjustments to the primal mounts, but if anything changes we will be sure to update you.

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The problem is there are 8 people that do the fight. Let's say the drop rate is 1% that is around 800 fights you would have to do to get all 8 people in the group just 1 of the mounts which is the reason why people don't want to go back and do the EX primals because the drop rate is too low.

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Originally Posted by raelgun

Just really want to say this, I have both of those mounts among the other 143 I have in wow, I was also pretty much also first on server with Enbarr (lev ex mount) XD, but what I dont understand more with this playerbase, aside from the drop rate, why are people have so much hatred in competing with other players, Ive never seen this level of hatred, seriously people, try competing for stuff against 24 other people, even then that didnt bother me at all, but this, with competing with just 7 other people, people are up in arms.

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it's not hard to figure out why. Put that 1% drop rate aside, think about when the mount actually drops and we are competing against 7 other players with "luck" - whoever roll the highest number gets it. That's not even a racing game that whoever has the best performance wins. It's not even considered a "competition" there.