In regard to the Scholars

Simply put, if the majority of those who enjoy pvp feel that a class/ job has an unfair advantage that job/ class will be changed. All of the added proof will only justify the adjustments. We the community as a whole often try to find the most advantageous means to secure victory whether it be in pvp or pve. Adjustments will be made and those currently useing the best combination will move on to the next easy mode.

Yeah except that at the moment, White mage is a real problem, not scholars. We don't have Sacred Prism or Cure 3 / regen / medica 2 and the not weak stoneskin. That and if a team of 8 focus you you ll be dead after your attunement end on a scholar, or the team in front don't even know what they are doin ... which is not the case when you re playin whm.

You can tank way, way way more than we scholars will ever be able to

If they nerf healers' survivability there will be no healers willing to play anymore.

Good luck.

They can tone down some things but should let the dps as it is, like don't even touch it. Scholars are not pure healers at the very base and I don't want to be just a heal bot if you can forgive me the expression

Gotta love how they listen to the JP community but not the NA community >.>

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Originally Posted by Alacran

Simply put, if the majority of those who enjoy pvp feel that a class/ job has an unfair advantage that job/ class will be changed. All of the added proof will only justify the adjustments. We the community as a whole often try to find the most advantageous means to secure victory whether it be in pvp or pve. Adjustments will be made and those currently useing the best combination will move on to the next easy mode.

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Simply put, if enough people complain about it, someone's going to change it.
You don't need valid or legitimate claims, you don't even need evidence. Just cry hard enough for long enough and change will happen.

^That's the sad fact of games nowadays.

First of all, I did not start this thread for ranting against the Scholars. This is a thread for discussion about how S/E will adjust Scholar in 2.35. It is pretty much confirmed that Scholar is on the list for tune down.

Secondly, whether Scholar is OP or not, it is very subjective to individual and how Scholar is being used. If a Scholar is used in oupost defending and harrassing, they are really strong for this perspective. If a Scholar is used in formation battle on each flag point, they are showing weaker than WHM in survival.

How strong is Scholar as outpost defnder and outpost harrasser? There is this illustration from 2ch. This is a direct quote from JP Scholar: (I will leave the origianl context if anyone interesting in google transslation).

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604: 既にその名前は使われています＠＼(^o^)／ 2014/08/10(日) 15:15:15.75 ID:SvzS0E3y.net
学にタイマンを挑むチンパン様へ

まずは挨拶を。
わたくし学ちゃんのhpは5000あります。
鼓舞ストスキかかってる状態を維持できるのでほぼ6000と考えてください。

攻撃手段は4dotとルインラエナドレエーテルバースト、殴り。
4dotは入れるのが難しいので大抵2dotですが、少なく見積もってもDPS200ほどです。DPSなら20秒程で死にますね。

ここで簡単な算数の問題なのですが、hp6000を20秒で削るにはどれだけDPSがいるでしょうか…正解は300ですね。
IL80シンクされている戦場でスプリントで駆け回る学ちゃんにDPS300出せるのであれば、勝ち目があるかもしれません。

ごめんなさい意地悪言いました。

外付けケアルマシンのフェアリーちゃんが3秒毎に500の回復を吐いています。
DPS300出そうがしなないのです、すいません。

学ちゃんとのタイマンで勝ち目はない、お願いだから頭に叩き込んでおいてください。
敵であれば歓迎しますが、空き巣や防衛してるバカDPSや斧の多さを考えると、きっと味方にもこういうバカがたくさん居るのでしょう。

本当にやめてください。
空き巣やお留守番をしたいなら、学やってください。

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Shcolar is saying he is more than welcome for any DPS to challenge him (in abusive term, bad mouth). Schoalr HP is about 5,000, and under Adloquium effect, HP is up to 6,000. Schoalr have 4 dots and serveral spells (list of spells that i am unable to translate). It is diffcult to put up 4 dots, but with 2 dots around 200 dps, it is probably takes 20s to kill a DPS.

This is a simple caculation. How much DPS do you need to reduce 6,000 HP within 20s? The answer is 300. You need to be able to outp 300 dps on a Scholar that is constantly under sprint effect, epseically when ilvl is 80. You have no chance.

I am sorry for being bad mouth.

The egi is auto cure machine @ 500 HP/3s. I am sorry that you have no way to output 300 dps.

There is no way to challenge Scholar in 1 v 1. It is more than welcome for any stupid DPS to try that. While there are so many idiot DPS and Tank trying to defend outpost for no reason. (One stence I cant properly translate.)

Please let Schoalr defend the outpost.

That is the best translation I can do. As you can see, this issue is very subjective. While Scholar may not have what it takes as WHM in battle at the node. They are the best outpost guardian currently in the game. While taking the node is important, but defending own outpost and harrassing outpost is also very important. How do we balance this out?

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Originally Posted by Tinsley

You know what i find funny.. people think that because they want to kill another player (Scholar) they think they have the right to kill said player(scholar).

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^ this ...

Short comment here, but....This noob has used all classes and will give you a small tip. When you use all classes, you realize... How awesome is scholar when maxed out. For PvP and also for PvE.

No point in nerfing the favorite PvP class of some and PvE-perfect solo class because some people just can't handle it.

(Ah, sorry, just wanted to say that, didn't even bother in readin more than two pages of this + developer answer, and probably won't read it back, but... I hope it won't be nerfed JUST BECAUSE some people actually realized "Hey, it's good class, maybe... Too good class". More difficult to use, more benefits it has if used well, things shall always be like that, not everything is just super-easy follow the rotation BLM-style)

From Update notes:

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Skills such as One Ilm Punch or Glory Slash can now remove any remaining stacks of Aetherflow on a selected target.

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Ouch.

Could have been worse, I suppose?

funny shit is these devs keep nerfing SCH's. But refuse to give us a damn viable CC. They fail to understand WHM's have Stone=heave, Blizzard II= Bind, Holy=Stun, Fluid Aura= Knockback & Bind, Repose=Sleep.

SCH, Aldo=Dmg Mitigation 2 sec cast np, Blizzard II crossclass- Only CC, Aura Blast=2min Knockback.

2.25 they get rid of our only viable CC and stick with giving SMN'er Tri-disaster an SMN'er only ability utilize strictly for PvP.

SE you lack some serious development Innovation. What will you do in 2.38 when people cry about our Adloquium? Get rid of our crit double buff spell. psssh, I'll play a game or two and then stop got all my achievs enjoy this broken system..

One Love, Eaz

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Originally Posted by RavenGrey

From Update notes:

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Skills such as One Ilm Punch or Glory Slash can now remove any remaining stacks of Aetherflow on a selected target.

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Ouch.

Could have been worse, I suppose?

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I think this is more of an improvement for MNK/PLD than a nerf for SCH. If all DPS and tank classes would have a capability to remove lustrates, then I would rage.
And also, I wonder what's the chance/rate.

Don't forget you can also have 'buffer' buffs as well... think the former buff gets removed first or the later... can't remember.

Only thing you'd have to worry about is a mnk on perfect balance rush to spam this. Kinda worthless on PLD/GLA since glory slash is too long of a CD.

This change cost them a sub. Thank god they didn't get a chance to renew on me.

I had a chance to get a good feel for the game, the impression was generally positive, and one expects balance sweeps, but to mess with a core class resource is outrageous overreach in any game.

How about having 1 ilm punch put every every WHM cool-down over 1 minute on cool-down too?

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Originally Posted by plasmacutter

This change cost them a sub.

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No, they don't. You are probably on the trial account and will be gone when the Destiny is out. Threatening with subscription so so 1999....

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

No, they don't. You are probably on the trial account and will be gone when the Destiny is out. Threatening with subscription so so 1999....

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off topic: to be fair in a subscription based mmo the majority of your voting power comes with your sub, unless your suggesting the alternative is to keep giving the company your not satisfied with money and hoping they will listen to you at which point they know your threats are empty lol

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Originally Posted by plasmacutter

This change cost them a sub. Thank god they didn't get a chance to renew on me.

I had a chance to get a good feel for the game, the impression was generally positive, and one expects balance sweeps, but to mess with a core class resource is outrageous overreach in any game.

How about having 1 ilm punch put every every WHM cool-down over 1 minute on cool-down too?

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Oh, you are just adorable! Can I keep you?

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Originally Posted by jlewiss

off topic: to be fair in a subscription based mmo the majority of your voting power comes with your sub, unless your suggesting the alternative is to keep giving the company your not satisfied with money and hoping they will listen to you at which point they know your threats are empty lol

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I am the OP and you might want to read the thread...... Or at least the beginning.

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Originally Posted by Vittorino

funny shit is these devs keep nerfing SCH's. But refuse to give us a damn viable CC. They fail to understand WHM's have Stone=heave, Blizzard II= Bind, Holy=Stun, Fluid Aura= Knockback & Bind, Repose=Sleep.

SCH, Aldo=Dmg Mitigation 2 sec cast np, Blizzard II crossclass- Only CC, Aura Blast=2min Knockback.

2.25 they get rid of our only viable CC and stick with giving SMN'er Tri-disaster an SMN'er only ability utilize strictly for PvP.

SE you lack some serious development Innovation. What will you do in 2.38 when people cry about our Adloquium? Get rid of our crit double buff spell. psssh, I'll play a game or two and then stop got all my achievs enjoy this broken system..

One Love, Eaz

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+1. And that's why WHM is my 2nd one favorite in PvP.... To be honest I just leveled healers for PvP. Scholar is awesome (But sadly I think they are going to nerf us even more) and WHM is super tactical and have a lot of things to do, at least in PvP.

Hey, don't swear it too much, I could really imagine a future where Scholar's dont have adloquium critical buff, being just a one-target succor.

Well until we actually are able to play over a course of time, you will not really know how the change would affect gameplay as much. As mentioned by another poster, this removal of Stacks is more of a buff for monk than nerf for scholars.

I don't think much will change in PvP though other than monks chasing after scholars more often and with the potency buffs given to dps classes, hopefully it solves some kind of damage issue people might have. If you're quitting the game after just hearing about something and not extensively trying it out, I don't know, it's more telling of yourself.

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Originally Posted by Zyphione

Well until we actually are able to play over a course of time, you will not really know how the change would affect gameplay as much. As mentioned by another poster, this removal of Stacks is more of a buff for monk than nerf for scholars.

I don't think much will change in PvP though other than monks chasing after scholars more often and with the potency buffs given to dps classes, hopefully it solves some kind of damage issue people might have. If you're quitting the game after just hearing about something and not extensively trying it out, I don't know, it's more telling of yourself.

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Relying on another player's ignorance of not using an ability to remove one of your own is not a good game design. I can see getting away with it in Frontlines because its full of noobs anyway, but in Wolves' Den where there are more serious pvp players that know what they're doing, the removal of the Aetherflow stacks is going to be a hinderance, especially with a PLD/MNK combo. So I expect to be seeing more PLD/MNK comps in Wolves Den where in that case SCHs will be much more easier to kill in an arena where the healer is the deciding factor of who wins the match or not.

Just curious because I havent done any Wolf Den after 2.3. Is WHM even doing well in Wolf Den? All i remember is seeing Scholars as healer in Wolf Den in 2.2.

WHM does well in 40 and 50s, but not so well in 30s because they don't have Regen.

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Originally Posted by Gor

Relying on..

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I always imagined the changes with this patch would have been worse, such as touching important skills like Adlo, Succor or modifying Eos' healing values.

It's undoubtedly going to be many monks and paladins after these changes, but I don't believe the SCH class is going to be having any more of a harder time than it had with the really painful changes before.

I have not tried Wolves Den yet though, so I can't comment on how much it has impacted the class from a personal opinion but I don't expect my playstyle to change very much other than needing help more often. It wasn't the best way to handle the situation as a whole in my opinion, but FL has been the focus and that's where a good majority of the PvP community is right now.

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Originally Posted by Zyphione

I always imagined the changes with this patch would have been worse, such as touching important skills like Adlo, Succor or modifying Eos' healing values.

It's undoubtedly going to be many monks and paladins after these changes, but I don't believe the SCH class is going to be having any more of a harder time than it had with the really painful changes before.

I have not tried Wolves Den yet though, so I can't comment on how much it has impacted the class from a personal opinion but I don't expect my playstyle to change very much other than needing help more often. It wasn't the best way to handle the situation as a whole in my opinion, but FL has been the focus and that's where a good majority of the PvP community is right now.

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my biggest concern is this sets a dangerous precedent, obviously there is a large segment of the player population who seems to think sch is OP and needed nerfing, rather then them just learning how to play better. who is to say that after scholars adapt to this change(and we will) they won't continue to nerf the scholar class into the ground until its unplayable as long as people are complaining about it. As I said before the scholar class is extremely difficult to play well but when you do play it well you become difficult to kill people are mistaking talent with core imbalance

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Originally Posted by jlewiss

my biggest concern is this sets a dangerous precedent, obviously there is a large segment of the player population who seems to think sch is OP and needed nerfing, rather then them just learning how to play better. who is to say that after scholars adapt to this change(and we will) they won't continue to nerf the scholar class into the ground until its unplayable as long as people are complaining about it. As I said before the scholar class is extremely difficult to play well but when you do play it well you become difficult to kill people are mistaking talent with core imbalance

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This I agree with^

Not sure if anyone have played WoW here, but if you do, you probably remember warriors at the beginning of Pandaria. I just found this post:

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9554405665

Found this quote from a Warrior:

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wowowow.... Wait a second... so your going to edit on the MAIN ABILITY of warriors... CHARGE!? We had that since !@#$ing Vanilla! Keep it the same! let it have its stun. Make "root" a talent or something... Glyph... Whatever! Just dont Change Charge!

Its like Blasphemy against the Class!

Guess someone couldnt handle a warrior in a duel... %^-*ing noobs with l2p issues... oh nono lets just Rape warriors primary ability... Sure it will be fun to see retards rooting everything... !

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It seems L2P is always the defense statement agaisnt own class/job being nerf. Did it ever works? Unfortunately, no. The main reason why I made this thread is provide an opportunity for NA players to voice their own feedbacks about Scholar instead of Japanse players only. But, what has this thread been derailed into? Just pointless of ranting agaisnt Scholar and Scholars are busy at defending themselves. There is no analyze on the Scholar's mechanics and its impact on overal Frontline. Why would our own English fourm moderator even bother to deliver our suggestions to Japanse Devs when there is not points to be deliver?

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Originally Posted by Gor

Relying on another player's ignorance of not using an ability to remove one of your own is not a good game design. I can see getting away with it in Frontlines because its full of noobs anyway, but in Wolves' Den where there are more serious pvp players that know what they're doing, the removal of the Aetherflow stacks is going to be a hinderance, especially with a PLD/MNK combo. So I expect to be seeing more PLD/MNK comps in Wolves Den where in that case SCHs will be much more easier to kill in an arena where the healer is the deciding factor of who wins the match or not.

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This is a pretty serious issue now indeed but its severely undermined by the even greater issue of wolves den being a pretty dead event atm (at least on primal data center). Maybe thats why the developers were so narrow-minded and only focused on the impact this would have on frontlines instead of the collateral damage it has on sch wolves den.

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Originally Posted by jlewiss

1

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I am interested in your definition! Could you provide more insight into the meaning of 'extremely difficult'?
I have read some of the definitions (some statistical and Divine did post a segment before) from the JP forums and other sites but I have not found many in the NA section.
The many threads about Scholars have never explicitly explained how the class has the highest learning curve in PvP to not deserve being toned down. I have not posted very much but the only examples being given of them to not be toned down is 'if you have seen what I have seen you will know'.

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Originally Posted by Zyphione

I am interested in your definition! Could you provide more insight into the meaning of 'extremely difficult'?
I have read some of the definitions (some statistical and Divine did post a segment before) from the JP forums and other sites but I have not found many in the NA section.
The many threads about Scholars have never explicitly explained how the class has the highest learning curve in PvP to not deserve being toned down. I have not posted very much but the only examples being given of them to not be toned down is 'if you have seen what I have seen you will know'.

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My reasons for saying that is because IMO scholar and obviously by some connection WHM, are the only class you cant just run into and attack things and expect to succeed. Anyone who has someone on their team who was dps but switched to healer because no one else had one is the perfect testament to this. Play ing healer in pvp even marginally well requires a thorough understanding of your pve AND pvp skills. It's not like bard where you can survive without enliven/blast shot/far shot etc. you functionally cannot operate as a healer in pvp unless you know apropriate timing for this like attunement and equanimity. The fact you are a healer instantly makes you target number 1 which is something lets say a dragoon or a warrior doesn't have to worry about. All of your skills (with the exception of regen lustrate and benediction) are interruptible and guess what, a healer unable to use skills makes them 100% useless. Aside from that there is the added pressure of being the deciding factor as to whether or not a flag gets captured, kill a team's healer and watch how quickly the rest of them go down. That is a lot of responsibility to put on a couple of players. All in all I say scholar is the most difficult class to play because it requires that you don't **** up and have a constant awareness of what is going on in the fight and what skills you have available to you/on CD.
If your a monk you can pretty much just run in and attack things and still be mildly efficient, as a paladin you can run in and attack things and be mildly efficient, if your a scholar and you run in and just start trying to heal your going to find yourself frustrated for the 10 seconds before your dead because you thought surecast was a useless skill and didn't put it on your hotbar. Also look at wolves den, there isn't even a learning curve for healers there so much as a steep cliff drop off. For a healer in wolves den you dead within 10-20 seconds if you dont know what you are doing and a dead healer means a dead team in WD.
The only reason i would rank scholar slightly harder then WHM is the lack of CC abilities with blizzard 2 being the only real option and that requires giving up a CC slot.

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Originally Posted by jlewiss

Aside from that there is the added pressure of being the deciding factor as to whether or not a flag gets captured, kill a team's healer and watch how quickly the rest of them go down.

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And this is the beef I have with this game. the team is wayyy too dependent on the healer imo. other mmos i've played, the healer can go down but the fight can still keep going because each of the other roles/classes have their own healing, regen or strong defensive abilities. they aren't strong healing abilities of course, but its enough to keep one up. in fact in other mmos, you may not even need a healer and just go all dps if you want. i really don't like the dependency that is put on the healer.

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Originally Posted by Gor

And this is the beef I have with this game. the team is wayyy too dependent on the healer imo. other mmos i've played, the healer can go down but the fight can still keep going because each of the other roles/classes have their own healing, regen or strong defensive abilities. they aren't strong healing abilities of course, but its enough to keep one up. in fact in other mmos, you may not even need a healer and just go all dps if you want. i really don't like the dependency that is put on the healer.

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This is only the case because of how strong the healer is, so I don't even know whose side you're on any more.

You can lose any other class and be OK - but lose the healer and forget it. Healers are too powerful to lose, which is the root of the problem. I don't think that's a bad thing, but it is the truth.

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Originally Posted by Koltik

This is only the case because of how strong the healer is, so I don't even know whose side you're on any more.

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i was referring to the aspect as a dps. in the early days of wd, i was playing brd as my main prior to becoming sch and i quit pvp'ing as brd because the q's were infinitely long as ranged and then when i did get in, i could never get a healer that could stay alive in wd for more than 2 seconds. that wore my patience thin, fast which is why i went SCH. as far as what side i'm on, i don't take sides i just say what i think lookin at the broader picture, but i also understand the frustration as a dps and tank because thats the role i have always played in mmos until now. so all i can do is compare my experience as a dps and tank in those mmos to ffxiv and immediately right off rip, i didnt like the fact that i had to depend on a healer to even have a match. in other mmos i've played which i always either tanked or dps'd, if our healer died before the other team, yes it crippled our team, but didn't mean that just because he died first that it was a 98% chance it was a loss. the match could still carry on a bit without a healer. so if SE were to implement anything like giving other classes viable healing/cc/defensive skills they would have to equally nerf both SCH and WHM to balance it.

compared to other mmos, i find the pvp in here more like Tom & Jerry, Cat N Mouse rather than being interactive as other games. i don't have a problem with that too much, but its just such a generic approach to pvp when they can make each class have some kind of survivability to an extent and have more interactive games.

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Originally Posted by Koltik

This is only the case because of how strong the healer is, so I don't even know whose side you're on any more.

You can lose any other class and be OK - but lose the healer and forget it. Healers are too powerful to lose, which is the root of the problem. I don't think that's a bad thing, but it is the truth.

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So would you say then that all other variables the same, if one party has a WHM as healer and the other has a SCH as healer, any change negatively impacting the survivability of the SCH as compares to that of the WHM, tips the scales in favor of the party with the WHM? I'm not OCD about things being 99.99999% balanced and a lot of what people say is balanced or not is subjective, but this example (which is all about the viability of one party otherwise identical to another based on changes impacting the healer in one but not the other- a role too powerful to lose as you said) seems pretty objective to me.

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Originally Posted by Gor

compared to other mmos, i find the pvp in here more like Tom & Jerry, Cat N Mouse rather than being interactive as other games. i don't have a problem with that too much, but its just such a generic approach to pvp when they can make each class have some kind of survivability to an extent and have more of an interactive approach.

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I'd say it's like the Itchy & Scratchy Show. Really wish I had an animated gif of them or something to post right now.

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Originally Posted by Buff_Archer

I'd say it's like the Itchy & Scratchy Show. Really wish I had an animated gif of them or something to post right now.

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yea, this pretty much sums up what playin a healer feels like

http://xrixterweb.files.wordpress.co...64206114-7.gif