Radars in Frontlines and Hunts - Any word from SE?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jynx

Trust me as a old hardened MMO player people are often less than discreet when they use these tools. Sure they aren't shouting it to the heavens but /tells and FC and LS chat will often betray many cheaters.

---

Yeah, I can think of several instances in other games where players would screenshot a conversation from a guild or party chat, and the player would suddenly disappear, and the next thing you know "XYXYX just skyped me to say his account got banned :(" This is usually because someone in the chat was part of the stealth anti-cheating group (people who have a direct line to GM's.) Make cheating inconvenient, and people will be less willing to go through the effort of doing it.

I'd like to recommend upping health of the higher class hunts to that of raid boss level health, and the lesser class to dungeon boss level. people botting would die radar people would be more willing to shout out coordinates and everyone would be able to build up there level because of the longer battle cycle. just too easy to kill these things with the gear people have access too even fresh 50's.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Icehunter

I have actually :) I've even written a few myself for work. Section 7 covers "monitoring use of the game" but without expressly stipulating visual data collection or process collection they can't do it.

In comparison. Section 15 of Blizzard's ToS:

---

Actually "You acknowledge that Square Enix will be monitoring your use of the Game to help you play the Game, for our internal analysis to help us improve our games and services, to investigate disruptive activities or Prohibited Activities, and to confirm that you are abiding by the terms of this User Agreement and related agreements." says they can do it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Grekumah

I want to reiterate what we announced recently, as our policy regarding third party tools remains unchanged.



We take all reports seriously and we appreciate your cooperation in reporting any issues that you discover.

---

That isn't a solution guys. People continue to use parsers and spam the hell out of players to sell gold because you can only punish after the fact, not block the apps from working.

Remove the need for the apps (like built in DPS parsers) and you wont have these problems anymore.

The offical SE endorsed add on dev kit keeps getting delayed. Yoshi P said people will be able to make their own addons for the game 6 months after the game has been out but now its been almost 12 months.

Radar is a thing. But people using teleport hack + radar without hidding themselves and proudly mentionning it in the chat + global repeated report from people of linkshell in the server and more that a week later, the same few people still do it.

I can understand that it may be tough to counter radar app, but I mean teleport hack... It is more than a urgent issue, if people are not caught proactively, at least they should be when there is a massive report on them... Something must be done quickly, and there should be some server side detection for people teleporting themself.... It's been there since the launch, first it was for gathering bot and FATE spamming, now it come back for hunts.

Interesting to read that people are even using the Radar app inside frontlines.

This game is truly ran by the players at this point. Yoshi-P wants to leave such a large grey area with the use of third-party apps and all this "fight club" bullshit; his very own game is now being handed off the very people he so desperately wanted to please.

SE saying absolutely nothing on this regard is disheartening and I understand that they can't "DO SOMETHING!" right now but being extremely quiet on the case isn't giving an ounce of assurance.

Guess I'll do the pathetic marks for like 5 seals and get my Wind-up Succubus sometime next year.

F***........

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Double

Interesting to read that people are even using the Radar app inside frontlines.

This game is truly ran by the players at this point. Yoshi-P wants to leave such a large grey area with the use of third-party apps and all this "fight club" bullshit; his very own game is now being handed off the very people he so desperately wanted to please.

SE saying absolutely nothing on this regard is disheartening and I understand that they can't "DO SOMETHING!" right now but being extremely quiet on the case isn't giving an ounce of assurance.

Guess I'll do the pathetic marks for like 5 seals and get my Wind-up Succubus sometime next year.

F***........

---

How is at least two community rep posts about it being forbidden, as well as one post about people being banned, being quiet?
Or is it that you want them to list exactly what they're doing, so that the cheaters can find new ways to escape detection?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nekodar

How is at least two community rep posts about it being forbidden, as well as one post about people being banned, being quiet?
Or is it that you want them to list exactly what they're doing, so that the cheaters can find new ways to escape detection?

---

I think people want results they can see, not vague posts saying they have done some bannings here and there, while seeing the same guy they reported continue to cheat with impunity.

A game company can ban for anything. But its a different result when they ban and show how their banning is having a lasting(and not temporary) effect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HumsterMKX

As far as I can see, the apps work by recieving info from the server itself and translating them to the players.

---

Normally it just read a memory of a client, so they are undetectable from server side. And even warden-type (i.e. spybot) are not perfect as it need to know what to catch - this was shown by a number of bots for WoW.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

Remove the need for the apps (like built in DPS parsers) and you wont have these problems anymore.

---

No, thanks.
They already told us why we will not see DPS parsers in actual content and I tend to agree. I don't want see constant bickering about how someone lags 20 dps behind optimum and likes. Currently, even if you use DPS meter, you can't use this information to accuse anyone, you need additional in-game proof of performance, that currently only possible for outlier results, not just some underperformance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

I think people want results they can see, not vague posts saying they have done some bannings here and there, while seeing the same guy they reported continue to cheat with impunity.

---

First of all it should be first be confirmed that person actually *cheats* and not usual "I think he is a cheater because he is more successful".
Over last week i heard so much lame accusations, for every little bit of "why they suck at hunt" people tends to blame apps and cheaters. And its really sad as there is only a small part of hunting that is improved by cheating, and the rest is just those people inability, on which they should really work, and not just push blame somewhere else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felessan

, and the rest is just those people inability, on which they should really work, and not just push blame somewhere else.

---

What the heck are you talking about? There are two issues here.

1. Players are using radars to find the monster. They begin moving toward it and once they are there maybe they will shout coordinates to everyone else. Maybe.
2. Once *someone* - completely arbitrary - feels *enough* time has elapsed, that person pulls, mob is dead in less than 10 seconds and you are lucky to get a hit in if you are there, if you aren't oh well.

Neither of these situations imply that someone who is frustrated by hunts is just terribad and should uninstall. They are issues that SE *needs* to address and not ignore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felessan

First of all it should be first be confirmed that person actually *cheats* and not usual "I think he is a cheater because he is more successful".
Over last week i heard so much lame accusations, for every little bit of "why they suck at hunt" people tends to blame apps and cheaters. And its really sad as there is only a small part of hunting that is improved by cheating, and the rest is just those people inability, on which they should really work, and not just push blame somewhere else.

---

And I saw Gilselling advertisements still being sent through tell, and I'm sure gathering bots are still a thing. my point is that the player that reports doesn't see their efforts having an effect, or any conclusive results as far as what they reported.

People making accusations in shout are just venting, even if the accused was guilty the only way things get rolling is with a report.

So how do they know they are actually making a difference in reporting or not? Or to descern who is legit or not? Should it not be our business? If it isn't our business, then why report at all?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Souljacker

1. Players are using radars to find the monster. They begin moving toward it and once they are there maybe they will shout coordinates to everyone else. Maybe.
2. Once *someone* - completely arbitrary - feels *enough* time has elapsed, that person pulls, mob is dead in less than 10 seconds and you are lucky to get a hit in if you are there, if you aren't oh well.

---

Good party usually finds no more than 10-20% of the marks it participate in. And this has nothing to do with radar. Moreover, there are some tricks that allow to successful get info about spawn even without using connections or radar - just monitor crystals for trains.
And there is *enough* time, it's usually when majority of this "hunt train" already in position and those who are not - are lazy or missed announcement. Normal people wait for others, but they will not wait 10 minutes until you will return from afk and run on your foot straight from the city.
Your is a typical complaint about how it not works your way, so you prefer not to fix your attitude, but rather accuse everyone else with cheating.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

And I saw Gilselling advertisements still being sent through tell, and I'm sure gathering bots are still a thing. my point is that the player that reports doesn't see their efforts having an effect, or any conclusive results as far as what they reported.

---

Gathering bots were busted en masse. There are probably still some of them there, but prices on botted resources skyrocketed, which means that there are much less activity than before.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felessan

Gathering bots were busted en masse. There are probably still some of them there, but prices on botted resources skyrocketed, which means that there are much less activity than before.

---

I meant official answers, not presumptions on your own server economy.

Not all of us have the time to stare at the AH. SE just hired a guy for that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

I meant official answers, not presumptions on your own server economy.

---

We receives official statements regularly that "disciplinary" action (aka bans) was taken on thousands of accounts. What else do you want to hear?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

Not all of us have the time to stare at the AH. SE just hired a guy for that.

---

So...
1) You don't really know whether cheaters and bots actually active or not
2) You don't read official statement about subject
But you still accuse SE that it do nothing against cheaters. Perfect position I would say.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felessan

We receives official statements regularly that "disciplinary" action (aka bans) was taken on thousands of accounts. What else do you want to hear?


So...
1) You don't really know whether cheaters and bots actually active or not
2) You don't read official statement about subject
But you still accuse SE that it do nothing against cheaters. Perfect position I would say.

---

That is not what I said. I said I don't consider forums posts in a argument on the same level as news announcements. That the situation in Sargatanas is different to the one in Excalibur, and I receive tells on gilselling advertisements. I do not have the time or interest to enforce the ToS, people are paid to do that.

And I sure as hell won't trust the app developers or anyone saying its not such a big deal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nekodar

How is at least two community rep posts about it being forbidden, as well as one post about people being banned, being quiet?
Or is it that you want them to list exactly what they're doing, so that the cheaters can find new ways to escape detection?

---

The time where the backroom was off-limits are long gone.

A game i'm paying for is being tainted and broken by its very own community.

The game was segregated enough, do we honestly need people defending the act of cheaters and the like?

Honestly, if you had dignity of any sort.. You would feel somewhat uncomfortable that people are cheating in a game you pay for.

Whether or not it affects you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Double

The time where the backroom was off-limits are long gone.

A game i'm paying for is being tainted and broken by its very own community.

The game was segregated enough, do we honestly need people defending the act of cheaters and the like?

Honestly, if you had dignity of any sort.. You would feel somewhat uncomfortable that people are cheating in a game you pay for.

Whether or not it affects you.

---

I'm not in any way defending cheaters and I hate that there are people in game that does it.
But I certainly don't need to know the details of what SE does about the problem, when such details help the cheaters more than it would help me in any way.

Seeing reports that accounts have been banned is enough for me to see that SE is doing something.

I have tolerated much of the gil selling and botting in this game already. But this takes the cake. Unless radars and teleporting scams are dealth with, I think im through with this game. I so hate this bogus hunters who are parading titles and upgrading weathered items like its nothing. Access to i110 items is maintstream now, i dont know how crafters can fight back (desynth? for glamour? really?) and even old time raiders might as well join the bandwagon too. Seeing bans and warning updates is good, but I DOUBT that totally removing this hacks is even possible seeing how long-time problems like bots and gil sellers are still thriving and continues to mock SE. I do like the idea of hunts, but seeing how its being abused now? i just wish this patch wasn't release at all. Oh yes, this radar app is also being used in Frontlines, another feature that i liked ruined by it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nekodar

How is at least two community rep posts about it being forbidden, as well as one post about people being banned, being quiet?
Or is it that you want them to list exactly what they're doing, so that the cheaters can find new ways to escape detection?

---

Because so far, their only reply to my question as to whether they are going to take any kind of action to stop this has been to repeat that the activity is against tos.

We know this is against the tos, what most of us would like to know is if they will take action in any way or if this is going to be relegated to the "fight club" parsing/turn a blind eye as long as it isn't mentioned in-game. This content is currently broken for PS3/PS4 players. Not entirely so much that they can't partake in it, but certainly at a tremendous handicap to the PC competition that are using these exploits.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hybris-Maenad

This content is currently broken for PS3/PS4 players. Not entirely so much that they can't partake in it, but certainly at a tremendous handicap to the PC competition that are using these exploits.

---

Everything is broken for PS3 and PS4 users because PCs play the game much better. You can make radar users (probably a much smaller percentage of players than you think) your scapegoat all you like but you should be aiming your venom at the fact you're on a console.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SeleneVenizelos

Everything is broken for PS3 and PS4 users

---

Guess I imagined clearing quite a lot of content on my PS3 :x

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupsi

Guess I imagined clearing quite a lot of content on my PS3 :x

---

It's easy to take things out of context if you only quote half of a sentence. Here, I'll have a go:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupsi

I imagined clearing my PS3 :x

---

Jack be nimble, Jack be quick, Jack jumped over the analog stick?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SeleneVenizelos

It's easy to take things out of context if you only quote half of a sentence.

---

The rest of your post pretty much put down people who played on a console. The ironic part about you saying this is the very first sentence of your post is Everything is broken for the PS3/PS4 players. So it's not even out of context when you open with stating it's impossible for PS3/PS4 players to do anything because being broken = doesn't work.

Unless there's another definition of "broken" I don't know about? The rest of your post basically went to state that people shouldn't target radar users but the hate should be towards playing on a console.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupsi

The rest of your post pretty much put down people who played on a console.

---

My post put the console down, not the players. You intentionally isolated part of the sentence to make it look like I was saying what you wanted it to say. Go and find somebody else to have a trivial argument with, you will get nothing more out of me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SeleneVenizelos

My post put the console down, not the players. You intentionally isolated part of the sentence to make it look like I was saying what you wanted it to say. Go and find somebody else to have a trivial argument with, you will get nothing more out of me.

---

It's not an argument - If everything is broken on consoles, I must have imagined clearing content on it. You can't say something is broken when that's not the case at all. The topic in question is about people using tools to gain an advantage over people who don't - this includes both PC and Console players.

Saying something is broken on a console is irrelevant to the topic when even PC players can't see mobs at times. My point was if the console is "broken" how is it people who play on it clear the content?

They don't comment because they don't care.

I don't condone the radar cheating, but I also don't see what they can do. It reminds me of when some states in the US tried banning radar detectors in cars. Most courts found that the signals are there to be received and it is not illegal to receive the radar signals transmitted from police/authorities. Of course, this is a game. And SE is the judge/jury/executioner. However, I don't see how they can do anything. The radar cheat probably just reads in whatever the server says is in your view. I can see them doing something if people were teleporting around.

It is depressing. Probably one of the reasons I don't touch frontlines and won't do hunts unless I'm in a big LS doing it. I can't compete. It is a problem.

https://i.imgflip.com/at6wt.jpg

They should flood the data with invisible entities with real names making the map unreadable. XD

Really hope they either add it as a feature into the game (last ditch effort), or really go nuts on preventive and proactive measures. Allowing official modding would help move off some of the unofficial modding as well (moves a number of developers to an official process that needn't be worried of). Has it been confirmed if SE has a Warden/VAC like system?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dspguy

I don't condone the radar cheating, but I also don't see what they can do.

---

They can spawn fake enemies that can only be detected if you're reading memory - They did it in FFXI and it only showed up to people who used Windower and certain plugins that parsed memory. Aside in-game measures they can scan your PC but they'd have to update the EULA/TOS to do so.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupsi

They can spawn fake enemies that can only be detected if you're reading memory - They did it in FFXI and it only showed up to people who used Windower and certain plugins that parsed memory. Aside in-game measures they can scan your PC but they'd have to update the EULA/TOS to do so.

---

And quite frankly they don't have the industry clout OR the playerbase to pull that kind of a bait and switch. I'd agree with the random spawning of fake mobs - something, ANYTHING to fix this problem... short of spying on my personal computer tyvm.

I stand corrected. I guess there is something they could do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupsi

They can spawn fake enemies that can only be detected if you're reading memory - They did it in FFXI and it only showed up to people who used Windower and certain plugins that parsed memory. Aside in-game measures they can scan your PC but they'd have to update the EULA/TOS to do so.

---

How exactly did that work in XI? I don't see it working well here, I mean yeah you are able to see the fake enemies in your radar, but the server doesn't know you are able to see them since it's a 3rd party app, SE still cannot know who is able to see them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alukah

How exactly did that work in XI? I don't see it working well here, I mean yeah you are able to see the fake enemies in your radar, but the server doesn't know you are able to see them since it's a 3rd party app, SE still cannot know who is able to see them.

---

It's client side, the only thing server side were the stats/drop information - Which is why in XI for example players removed enemy models in order to claim certain ground kings like Fafnir easier until SE made a server check to see if you still retain all particular dats of a certain zone.

Sadly, XIV's client was (maybe still is) fairly open to the point an IE setting was messing with people's login and could be easily manipulated, you were even able to tell the server to do what you wanted, e.g "Make me level 45" and it'll comply, so the way XIV is designed it'd work pretty easily.

Also, yoshi said recently they do monitor the game very closely, they can easily gather the info they needed since to SE's credit, when they really need to gather info about a certain situation, they will. (Salvage Bans) - If you don't know what happened then, the way that worked can't be detected unless they're closely monitoring the situation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alukah

How exactly did that work in XI? I don't see it working well here, I mean yeah you are able to see the fake enemies in your radar, but the server doesn't know you are able to see them since it's a 3rd party app, SE still cannot know who is able to see them.

---

The purpose would be to make the feature useless to use. If you see thousands of fake enemies on your screen - then there is no point to use the radar in the first place. Doesn't help report users but it does mess the feature up, and if thats the best they can get that is what they should do. If they want to get very close to spyware (Warden/VAC like) then that works well and can help stop this stuff, but will probably make a few people very uncomfortable.

There are plenty of options out there, of anti-cheat apps that run with the client app, scanning for known cheat programs and watching the process list for them. For an example, Lineage 2 uses one called hGuard/GameGuard, and has since like 2005. Not sure exactly how well it works, given the amount of botting that still went on there, but it's just an example. Another is WoW and Warden.

SE should just change Hunts to forced spawns like Treasure Hunts. Obviously the players can't be trusted with open world spawns.