Possible Paladin Rework...

I always thought it was common sense to open or pull troublesome adds (ex: Iron Giant) with flash+scorn or lob+scorn. No? Just me? Ok.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FallenWings

I'm sorry to say that you really won't be tanking a group of mobs any differently than you were before. It'll just be easier to do so the same way as always. Which is flash spam and circle of scorn here and there. If anything, the new Circle of Scorn buff would make ST aggro much, much better.

---

You might not be, but i will be. I dont spam AoE attacks non stop on each mob (which is why i'm glad SE is making the change because i hated "having" to do it as pld, and even then i'd get away with not doing it as much as possible.)

I target the mob with which i have the least threat after a few AoE moves then start my single target. I also try to debuff mobs with the most HP so they dont deal as much damage to me if possible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FallenWings

I'm sorry to say that you really won't be tanking a group of mobs any differently than you were before. It'll just be easier to do so the same way as always. Which is flash spam and circle of scorn here and there. If anything, the new Circle of Scorn buff would make ST aggro much, much better.

---

Not sure why they would buff those abilities now but hey I am not complaining. Also I agree with Fallen Wings, this will change nothing of how I tank or play in general.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FallenWings

I'm sorry to say that you really won't be tanking a group of mobs any differently than you were before. It'll just be easier to do so the same way as always. Which is flash spam and circle of scorn here and there. If anything, the new Circle of Scorn buff would make ST aggro much, much better.

---

Yup. Maybe now blm's won't rip hate off me with double flare despite me running myself dry of mana flashing. -.-

So happy we're finally getting an aoe enmity boost. ^^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Danbo05

I always thought it was common sense to open or pull troublesome adds (ex: Iron Giant) with flash+scorn or lob+scorn. No? Just me? Ok.

---

Shield lob + CoS, yes. Actually, usually 2-3 shield lobs to keep up hate while I position since your average DPS can be pretty trigger-happy... Wait for the tank to position the mob? Ain't nobody got time fo dat.

So anyone got some rough numbers on the new CoS and Flash buffs?

I recall Flash generating around 495-500 potency worth of enmity before any modifiers. Would like to know how much it is now.
And the aggro mod on CoS should be easy to figure out.

Bump w/ Data

New Flash Potency is 600. Up from 495. (+21%)
Circle of Scorn's INITIAL 100 Potency hit now has a 3x hate mod, and the ticking damage, which totals 150 potency does not.
So CoS is now 300 Upfront and 150 Dot (hate wise), for a total of 450, up from 250. (+80%)

Hmm, the buff to Flash is nice. Though still, CoS, for being a lvl 50 skill on a 25s CD still feels "meh". Don't get me wrong, the 80% hate increase is appreciated, but it seems like the dot should also have the same 3x hate mod.
This would bring the total up to 750, stronger than Flash, which is easy to spam, and on par with a non-Maim Overpower.

War will still easily have an aggro lead given Defiance-Maim-Overpower is 2*.75*1.2*120*5 = 1080 hate potency per use.
The only issue I can foresee is just the way dots work may not let them be subjected to a hate mod. In which case the initial 100 Potency of CoS would need a 6x mod, along with 30*5 worth of damage, for a total of 600+30*5 = 750.

I can confirm this. The new enmity potency of Flash is 600 (so ~100 more) and CoS got a *3 modifier for the initial hit.

I think the Flash/CoS enmity buff while great, is nothing but a temporary band-aid in lou to a bigger issue. Enmity generation is still going to be a problem as long as we're completely married to Vitality in the accessory slots and the STR gap between tanks and DPS grows. Basically put, though Tanks are not DPS, our enmity generation is based upon our DPS. Every time we get new gear upgrades, tank DPS doesn't grow at the same rate as DPS classes and therefore our enmity generation will suffer eventually as gear upgrades happen.

Well, that is unless they change the way the mechanics for enmity work. Such as having enmity scale with VIT instead of damage, or turning PLD/WARs main attributes to VIT only have it scale for 25% less than DPS primary attributes to help keep the balance. In the end either way it would be easier to manage hate mechanics.

Or add STR to tank accessories, but make them tank only.
Though the idea of having lets say 25-50% of your VIT affect your base potency value when considering threat calculations would be nice.
Granted this may require more detailed tooltips, to the point where we would be allowed to see our actual base potency for damage AND for threat.

Sad to see that PLD has not been fixed even after my lengthy leave of the game and just returning back to the game. I was going to continue to level the class and maybe see that they fixed it but from this thread it appears nothing has been done to fix the issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Inosaska

Sad to see that PLD has not been fixed even after my lengthy leave of the game and just returning back to the game. I was going to continue to level the class and maybe see that they fixed it but from this thread it appears nothing has been done to fix the issue.

---

Well tanking shouldn't be easy, but I think the threshold is getting a little too high for tanks who have to be married to VIT (on relevant content) to really keep up with hate. I'm going up equally geared tanks all the time, I can be in DPS gear and Sword Oath and unless they're fully focused on hate (WAR's included) I still end up stealing hate most of the time if I don't back off.

This is the 4th or 5th time they've made some kind of adjustment to Tanks Enmity potency abilities, but it doesn't address the overall mechanics when every major gear patch DPS will be getting another additional +25 STR/DEX over the tanks without some kind of adjustment that would actually scale more in line with the tanks stats vs' dps based stats which tank isn't focused on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

This is the 4th or 5th time they've made some kind of adjustment to Tanks Enmity potency abilities, but it doesn't address the overall mechanics when every major gear patch DPS will be getting another additional +25 STR/DEX over the tanks without some kind of adjustment that would actually scale more in line with the tanks stats vs' dps based stats which tank isn't focused on.

---

The solution to this is to take Shield Swipe off the GCD, decrease the potency to 180 and add enmity x3 to it. It should have been done in the first place for 2.4 but I guess they thought we had trouble holding hate against BLMs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Shield Bash should be off gcd just like the Warrior ability.

---

Sure why not, then also give it a 20s CD like the WAR ability.

They just need to make paladin have more abilities like a warrior does I leveled a warrior and stopped playing my paladin because it's so boring now compared to my warrior.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starbirth

The solution to this is to take Shield Swipe off the GCD, decrease the potency to 180 and add enmity x3 to it. It should have been done in the first place for 2.4 but I guess they thought we had trouble holding hate against BLMs.

---

That's not a solution, it's another band-aid temp solution, because what I specified pertains to Warrior as well. The only reason it doesn't seem as prevalent on WAR is because WAR got their own band-aids a little while back, and just because the playing field is a bit more even between the two jobs doesn't mean the issue has disappeared.

Really all I'm trying to convey is instead of making these band-aid patches to our enmity potency every major gear update, why not change the factor that affects our potency to something that's in line with tanks specific stat or mechanic focus such as.

1. A have the potency of Enmity be based on VIT/Max HP instead of attack potency since VIT/HP is more of tanks focus in endgame content.
2. Instead of having STR be tanks primary stat change it to VIT, it would scale better and at a similar rate as DPS jobs making the hate control more manageable.
3. For every parried/blocked move you gain hate equal too the amount negated x3/x1 (x1 for shields to keep it from being a huge advantage over WAR.)
4. When in Shield Oath/Defiance your Enmity potency increases based on your iLv or VIT.

I don't really understand why getting less str is a problem.

Paladin at i90 (95 weapon/shield) gets 158 str from gear in full fending. Monk in striking gets 224, about 141% what the pally gets.

Paladin at i130 (135 weapon/shield) gets 272 str from gear in full fending. Monk in striking gets 388, about 142% what the pally gets.

That's a very small relative increase, and I stress RELATIVE increase, because the absolute values don't mean anything. Every attack in this game is a function of potency - there are no attacks that deal, say, 50 damage plus a scaling value, which is where tanks run into trouble in other mmos, because the flat value tends to be very large, and their scaling is poor.. Your potency per second doesn't change much with gear - it goes up very slowly with skill/spell speed, with an occasional jump if you hit a breakpoint, but gains in strength don't affect it at all. Str is, essentially, just a multiplier on your attack damage, and if you held hate with 70% of the multiplier the dps got back in coil one, you can hold hate with 70% of the multiplier the dps get now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Menae

I don't really understand why getting less str is a problem.

---

Ummm, what? STR has significant value to damage which in turn increases the base value which the enmity potency modifiers will multiply. My own damage goes up 200-300 damage average in full STR gear, which is why I can pull hate off equally geared fending, Shield Oath/Defiance tanks, good lord if I go Shield Oath nobody is gonna hold hate off me.

Anyways, by your own math the DPS went from +66 STR over tanks too +116 over tanks that's pretty significant in the long run, and that's +116 STR now, what's gonna happen when the next gear patch hits +176 over tanks? That's kind of pushing it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Ummm, what? STR has significant value to damage which in turn increases the base value which the enmity potency modifiers will multiply. My own damage goes up 200-300 damage average in full STR gear, which is why I can pull hate off equally geared fending, Shield Oath/Defiance tanks, good lord if I go Shield Oath nobody is gonna hold hate off me.

Anyways, by your own math the DPS went from +66 STR over tanks too +116 over tanks that's pretty significant in the long run, and that's +116 STR now, what's gonna happen when the next gear patch hits +176 over tanks? That's kind of pushing it.

---

Of course it does. My point is this: assume an optimal paladin rotation does x enmity per STR, and an optimal dps rotation does y enmity per STR (or INT/DEX/MND, whatever), including all multipliers for shield oath, sword oath, etc. If tanks are consistently getting the same ratio of STR to dps (current ratio is about .7 for tanks), then as long as .7x > y, how much actual strength you have is irrelevant. You could have 7,000 STR to a monk's 10,000 STR, and as long as .7x>y, you'll still hold hate.

Paladin changes are something that I have been thinking a lot about lately and here are some of the changes that I thought would really make PLD better/more enjoyable to play.

1) Better dps when solo or main tanking. WAR has a huge advantage here and something should be done to help bring them closer together. One idea I had was to make Spirits Within ignore the damage reduction from Shield Oath similar to how some WAR abilities ignore the penalty from Defiance. That is all I've come up with so far, so if anyone is so inclined please post ideas. It should only increase dps when in shield oath and not sword oath as OT warrior and PLD damage are not too far apart. Also, I'm cool with WAR having a little better dps than PLD, just not to the level of disparity that exists now.

2) The Oaths should be taken off GCD. I have been experimenting with oath/stance dancing in order to make playing PLD more dynamic and interesting, for example popping a defensive CD and swapping to sword oath for the duration of the CD to squeeze out a bit more dps and then switching back to shield when the CD is done. However, with the oaths on gcd I find myself often not able to make the quick oath swaps that I want because the gcd has locked me out. So let's say I'm OTing in SwO and adds spawn that I need to pick up, its approx. 2.5 sec until I can swap to shield oath and then another 2.5 until I can properly engage the target. 5 seconds is a long time to have to wait and a lot can happen during that time. Taking the oaths off gcd would allow for quick on-the-fly swaps which would make strategic stance dancing to maximize dps more viable.

3) I am combining two into one for this suggestion. First is the most asked for suggestion for PLD, a second 3 part combo from riot blade. Second is a "takes more damage from x" debuff like WAR's slashing damage debuff. What I was thinking was to add this debuff to the 3rd attack in the combo and having it something that makes sense with riot like "reduces targets magic resistance by 10%".

4) Cover needs to be improved. First, it needs to not only redirect physical damage but any type of damage. It is already incredibly situational as it is, it doesn't need anything else to narrow its potential usefulness. Also it needs its range increased, sometimes my cover target just being on the other side of a larger mob places them too far away from me to use cover on them and since as a tank you are usually on one side of such a mob and facing it away from everyone else, that situation happens more often than it should.

5) Awareness, its a bit of a waste of an ability AND a trait. Just remove it as an ability and add its effect as a trait advancement to another ability like Bulwark. This would then open up an available ability slot for the new combo attack that I brought up in #3.

3+5 Alternative) A potential alternative to suggestions 3 and 5. Instead of removing Awareness as an ability, keep it as an ability and have the duration granted by the trait just built in. Then by freeing up that trait slot have it used for "Enhanced Riot Blade", which would allow you to combo another Riot Blade off of a comboed Riot Blade and then apply the debuff brought up in #3, essentially giving you a 3 part combo (Fast Blade>Riot Blade>Riot Blade) that applies the damage resistance debuff without exactly creating a new ability. However this "enhanced riot" blade may need a different animation than the regular riot blade as doing two back to back could look weird. While I list this as an alternative, just doing suggestions 3 and 5 would probably be better.

Although PLD have lower dmg while tanking, their dps is sightly higher compared to warrior while offtanking considering PLD are more defensive tanks while warriors are more aggressive and high dmg tanks. It's obvious to know why they have lower damage.
Warriors need to do quite a few things to get more mitigation. Keeping Storm path up, timing IB for big attacks. While PLD mitigations are just a button away, their 90sec def cd rampart with compared to warriors foresight is just clear which is better.
Also even tho the self heal from warriors are low in high lvl raids it does help as they need the self heal to compare with the increasing block rates and strengths of PLD shield. If PLD gets a dmg buff then warriors need a mitigation buff or self healing buff

I'd just be happy with Shield Bash taken off the GCD.
It is the only PLD stun and have it on GCD makes it almost useless, because PLD have always GCD in action and stuns are tactical skill to be used at exact timing. And you cannot ask a PLD to stand still in the event a mob may use the skill to stun.

And I do not care it interrupts my awesome rotation, Stun some skill casting is part of mechanics and have priority. Sastasha hard, first boss, a clear example of that.

Come on I have no problem taking adds in T10 or swapping with War or Tanking as MT the T11 boss in pair with war. Full vit. Please try to master you job (I'm not so experienced on War and so I have aggro problem with it so YES, experience and masterness of the job is a Key value).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blueskyy

PLD are more defensive tanks while warriors are more aggressive and high dmg tanks. It's obvious to know why they have lower damage... If PLD gets a dmg buff then warriors need a mitigation buff or self healing buff

---

I would just like to point out that PLD is not better overall at mitigation than a WAR and that in a lot of instances, such as boss fights, a WAR can have better mitigation.

This is because of a few things.

First off the eHP provided by the two tank stances is the same.

Rampart and Inner Beast. While IB has a shorter uptime, it can be used more frequently as long as you are doing your rotations which results in approximately the same overall uptime for the two. The differences: IB does damage and has a self heal, but the big one is that they actually don't mitigate the same % amount because of ShO being a base % damage reduction which means Rampart actually ends up being a 16% damage reduction while IB is still 20%. When coupled with the tank stance buffs, their defensive gain is the same. Also, as far as the difficulty of timing IB to big attacks, Infuriate + IB is available more often than Rampart so while you have to push one more button you can time it to more potential big attacks.

Sentinel and Vengeance. Sentinel with the trait says it does 40% damage reduction which actually results in a 32% damage reduction and lasts for 10 seconds and is on a CD timer of 180s. Vengeance does 30% damage reduction, does damage on being hit by physical attacks, lasts for 15s and has a 120s CD timer. When coupled with the tank stance benefits, they result in approximately the same defensive gains. Sentinel will provide a bit more mitigation per hit over a shorter period of time, while Vengeance lasts longer but has less mitigation per hit. However there still is the discrepancy of the cooldown times between the two (180s vs. 120s) and that Vengeance also does damage.

Bulwark and Foresight. This one is a bit harder to measure because of block. Bulwark can give greater burst damage reduction, but it has a shorter duration and longer cool down. Foresight may do less reduction but it lasts longer and can be used more often. The difficult to compare elements are that block could potentially block a really nasty attack or hit, but then again it probably won't. The chance of that happening is quite low so you should never plan around it.

Holmgang and Hallowed Ground. HG is better IMO and Holmgang could use some rework/a buff.

Thrill of Battle and Stoneskin. They function pretty much the same, the main differences being SS has a cast time but no cooldown and ToB does not have a cast time but has a cool down, ToB can stack with a SS cast by a healer. Also, with the trait ToB does 20% instead of 10%.

Convalescence. Same ability for both, but the PLD version is better due to trait.

Bloodbath. Same ability for both, but WAR version is slightly better due to trait.

Awareness. Pretty meh for either class.

Rage of Halone debuff and Storm's Path debuff. SP's damage reduced debuff is better than RoH's strength debuff since it affects all damage.

Block and Self-heals. Different flavor elements for both classes. While people like to say that the shield is a huge deal, it only works on physical attacks so is mainly effective for negating an auto attack here and there unless you use Bulwark but that ability should be looked at separately. So in most instances, they result in approximately the same amount of mitigation.

While it may seem like I am showing that WAR mitigation is better, it really depends on the situation. In boss fights and magic heavy fights, WAR can have better mitigation. In large trash pulls or physical damage heavy fights, PLD may have better mitigation.

Point being this whole PLD is defensive and WAR is offensive so should do much higher damage is only true conceptually and not functionally, so justifying the much greater amount of damage that a WAR can do solo or MTing is moot since their mitigation does not have this sort of discrepancy.

Also as I was suggesting, any buffs to PLD damage would be limited to only while using shield oath since that is where the big damage difference is, when both tanks are in their tank stance.

> Shield Moves on Separate GCD. Shield Oath shares a GCD with sword moves and Sword Oath with shield moves (it takes longer to swap to Sword Oath and stun and longer to swap to Shield Oath and dps).
Activation time will be limited only by animation locks. (RoH can still be a stun-killer, but a little less so than before). Shield Swipe can be a larger source of MT dps, as, assuming constant blocks, you'd have a roughly 50% increased rate of fire (the total animation time of most melee moves + Shield Swipe would probably bring you to just short of or a bit more than (RoH) half way through the next GCD.

- Bulwark will now provide a guaranteed block against cleaves around you, though a percentage of your bonus block rating will be consumed in proportion to how low your health drops from these cleaves and the amount of bonus block percentage had to be granted to guarantee the block. This mitigation is applied to the cleaves directly, and will effectively mitigate for all allies cleaved with it. Still applies only to physical attacks. (Effect is similar to Holy Passive, the Shield Oath alteration of Shield Bash, below, except that Holy Passive affects all damage types.)

>>> Oaths Revamped.

>> Both Oaths will generate stacks, to a maximum of 10. These stacks become harder to generate and have greater effect with each stack. There is only one type of stacks, shared by both oaths. Effects and generation method vary with oath. Both provide slight passive bonuses and can be consumed for burst effect.
- Shield Oath generates stacks through stunning, pacifying, and especially blocking (both from the block itself and the amount of damage blocked).
- Sword Oath generates stacks through dealing damage.

>> Each Oath will alter certain abilities.

> While in Shield Oath, pressing Shield Oath again grant additional effects to your next shield ability. You may channel additional stacks to be consumed either while holding down Shield Oath or by holding after using either shield move. The max channeling time is 3 seconds, stack-consuming/loading speed increased by the Skill/Spell Speed stat.
Stacks to be consumed that are channeled before using the abilities will add block chance, block strength, and flat damage reduction (the last in proportion to your attack power) immediately, lasting up to 3 seconds from the time the channel stops and doubled (quadrupled for Shield Bash) from when the skill animation begins to 1 second after it ends. In this form it is essentially an active mitigation tool that takes a while to regenerate but is not quite a CD.
- If the channel is instead done during the animation of the shield abilities:
-- Shield Bash will create a Holy Passive on the ground, protecting a conal area behind it, which will absorb damage that passes through its zone. Health is dependent on the number of stacks given to it, your health, defense, and attack power. Max of 8 stacks consumed over up to 1 GCD.
-- Shield Swipe will have a knock-back effect and will provide the Chastise effect on the enemy, which will slow and heavy the enemy while dealing holy damage for the duration of the channel. Max of 6 stacks consumed over up to 2 GCDs. The slow and heavy durations, though channeled, will not be reduced by speed.

> Sword Oath alters the effects of Spirits Within, Riot Blade, and Circle of Scorn.
> Simply Channeling Sword Oath allows you to consume mana in order to increase your Strength for a short duration, and adds half of the combo bonus of each ability done in combo since starting this buff as magic damage. Every odd stack channeled will generate 5/6/7/8/9% strength [max: 35%], effect increasing per stack. Every even stack will increase the duration of the effect by 1/1/1.33/1.66/2 GCDs [7 total]. Each stack consumed will spend 7% of base mana. Channeling is broken by and begins its duration when using another ability.

[Usage note: Going for larger consumptions tends to allow you to use the Strength to benefit a block if you were to swap Oaths, or it can allow for a full combo, where a Rage of Halone can potentially hit for as much as a Maim-Berserk Butcher's Block when including both the strength buff and the added combo bonus damage (as magic damage). Keep in mind that only half of the bonus effects here will affect oGCD moves, and that a RoH and Fast Blade on their own will not benefit from the combo bonus either. {RoH, FB, SB, RoH, FB, SB, RoH} is probably your best bet for using all 7 GCDs; {FB, RB, FB RB} or {RoH, FB, SB, RoH} after that, etc.. There is enough mana to swap Oaths after a 10-stack consume if you are at nearly full mana beforehand.]

- Circle of Scorn: Consuming stacks in combination in channel during/following Circle of Scorn will deal a second set of damage in small AoEs around you (each a separate, larger sword) from 10 o'clock, clockwise around you, firing 1 each third of a second at 2 stacks per second each to a max of 8 stacks. Each deals 10 potency and applies a DoT lasting 9 seconds, dealing 40 potency per tick. You can attack while the effect is still going, and simply click off the channel whenever, or continue holding it. (Yes you can cause enemies to be re-hit to get a little more duration out of this, or ensure that they all fall on the same enemy...)

- Spirits Within... [haven't thought this up yet. meh]


...I should really get back to work. Will finish this later if this isn't already a complete bust. I plan to work in an immense damage bonus or damage reflect to the shield stuff as well, since MT dps is where PLD is really lacking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LalaRu

I'd just be happy with Shield Bash taken off the GCD.

---

PLD stun is on the GCD because WAR's is off it. PLD's advantage is that it sits on a 2.5s (skillspeed dependent) recast timer - this is especially useful in fights like T5 and Leviathan. WAR also has to deal with animation delay on their stun, which isn't much fun.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

PLD stun is on the GCD because WAR's is off it. PLD's advantage is that it sits on a 2.5s (skillspeed dependent) recast timer - this is especially useful in fights like T5 and Leviathan. WAR also has to deal with animation delay on their stun, which isn't much fun.

---

Fact PLD's the only job that can consistently and consecutively stun on a whim is a tactical advantage other jobs don't have, and as much as people harp on it being on the GCD it's proven to be more useful in the long run in endgame instances (at least for the time that content is relevant).

@ SpookyGhost and SwordCoheir

Exactly what you two have said, taking the PLD stun off GCD would make it way too good compared to the WAR stun. If anything the WAR stun needs fixing by having its animation windup time reduced.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

@ SpookyGhost and SwordCoheir

Exactly what you two have said, taking the PLD stun off GCD would make it way too good compared to the WAR stun. If anything the WAR stun needs fixing by having its animation windup time reduced.

---

Not exactly, it's just every other job that has Stun's are all on a 20-30 second or so cooldown or there has to be some requirement to it (Shoulder Tackle's distance requirement, MNK/NIN forms). If you don't have a PLD and require stunlocks you have to co-ordinate your parties CD moves and that often hurts the parties DPS. Basically put, Shield Bash's strength is the fact it IS on the GCD, taking it off would hurt more than help in the long run because of it's spamability advantage.

How about Square Enix adding a skill that is able to make use of a Paladin`s enormous damage income?
Something that would be very usefull in a pinch and that could help the entire party?

For example:
A skill with a 15sec duration, and that would take 10% of the total damage taken by the Paladin and equally distribute it as HP to the other party members.
Putting a long recast (3 minutes maybe?) would be enough to prevent over-usage.

It is a nice idea, no? I think it also fits with the "Paladin" theme, where he would get hurt to protect those around him.
Maybe add this as a Level 50 skill, with the need to complete a certain quest to get it would be interesting, no?

@SwordCoheir

Being on GCD just means that an ability is tied to a cooldown timer shared across a number of abilities, activating and having to wait for it. This game just happens to lump most abilities into three categories: those on gcd with no additional cooldown, those off gcd with their own specific cooldowns, and those with specific requirements such as procs in order to activate.

It is entirely possible for an ability to be coupled to the gcd and then have its own longer cool down, it is just not very common.

So when I see someone say to take an ability off gcd and they provide no explicit cooldown time for it, I interpret that as having a 2.5 second cooldown (baseline gcd time in this game) or no cooldown and it being unhooked from the gcd, neither activating it nor having to wait for it.

That is why I said it would be quite OP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

I would just like to point out that PLD is not better overall at mitigation than a WAR and that in a lot of instances, such as boss fights, a WAR can have better mitigation.

This is because of a few things.

First off the eHP provided by the two tank stances is the same.

---

But...Shield Oath doesn't give any HP while Defiance does? I assume we're talking about Shield Oath and Defiance because Sword Oath isn't really a tank stance

Quote:

---

The differences: IB does damage and has a self heal, but the big one is that they actually don't mitigate the same amount because of ShO being a base % damage reduction which means Rampart actually ends up being a 16% damage reduction while IB is still 20%.

---

The way you're wording this is misleading. You're saying it like Rampart results in less mitigation than IB, when actually the PLD, with Shield Oath and Rampart, mitigates 36% of damage. The PLD ends up taking less damage which is what you should be looking at here, not just comparing the individual skills percent reduction.

Quote:

---

Sentinel and Vengeance. Sentinel with the trait says it does 40% damage reduction which actually results in a 32% damage reduction and lasts for 10 seconds and is on a CD timer of 180s. Vengeance does 30% damage reduction, does damage on being hit by physical attacks, lasts for 15s and has a 120s CD timer. So they have almost the same % damage reduction, but Vengeance does damage, lasts longer and can be used more often.

---

Again, the way you're wording this casts PLD in a pretty negative light.
It's not fair that you're not counting Shield Oath's mitigation in that percentage, because Shield Oath + Sentinel reduces 52% of damage, which is much higher than Vengeance's 30%. Because, again, you can't just compare the two skills and say "Shield Oath makes this mitigate less" and then not actually tell them how much Shield Oath and Sentinel mitigates.

Quote:

---

Bulwark and Foresight. This one is a bit harder to measure because of block. Bulwark can give greater burst damage reduction, but block only effects physical damage and it has a shorter duration and longer cool down. Foresight may do less reduction but it lasts longer and can be used more often. The difficult to compare elements are that block could potentially block a really nasty attack or hit, but then on the other hand since block only effects physical damage its effectiveness in magic heavy fights is greatly reduced.

---

If you're going to point out that you can only block physical damage, you need to point out that Foresight, which only increases physical defense, would be equally useless.

The point is, you can't really say "Because of Shield Oath's mitigation, X skill reduces less damage resulting in Y reduction from X skill" and then not include Shield Oath's mitigation in that. It's not really fair to the class, because Shield Oath is kinda PLD's thing, and with it, it always results in a higher mitigation percentage than any of WAR's stuff.

eHP (effective HP) is the amount of damage you can take before you die. For PLD eHP = HP / 0.8 (since he reduces incoming damage by 20%), for WAR it is eHP = HP * 1.25 (since he has an 25% increase to his HP pool). So if you are talking about how much damage a tank can take before he dies, you can ignore ShO and Defiance completely.

As a result the 20% reduction of Inner Beast and the 20% reduction of Rampart have the exact same effect on the survivability of the tank for example.

@Theodore

As Alphras pointed out and I stated already and has been shown many times on the forums, the eHP (effective HP) provided by Shield Oath and Defiance is the same, which means the boost in survivability provided by both is the same and therefore can be ignored for the most part when looking at the defense provided by other abilities. The only consideration that affects the other abilities is mainly, as I clearly stated, the fact that the way the game calculates stacking percent based effects is multiplicitive, not additive, so the fact that ShO is a percent based damage reduction buff, it reduces the mitigation percent of PLD's other main defensive cooldowns.

In the examples that you gave you stated that I should really be comparing the cumulative effects of PLD CDs+ShO to just WAR CDs/abilities, which would mean that those comparisons then completely ignore the benefits provided by Defiance, so it is obviously a skewed comparison and therefore should not be considered when looking at balance.

Yes, the point you made about foresight affecting only physical damage is correct. The reason I keep emphasizing the limitations of block is because I feel that some people on the forums keep trying to equate it or treat it like it is pretty much the same or as good as a straight % damage reduction which it is not.
However that does not nullify my first point when comparing Rampart and Foresight, Rampart can potentially provide a better damage reduction spike but it can be used less frequently and lasts for a shorter duration while Foresight provides a longer lasting, more consistent reduction in damage but potentially less damage reduced per hit.

You are calculating survivability and mitigation solely on % damage reduced effects, which is not how it should be looked at since there are many other things that result in added survivability and eHP.

Lastly, as I originally stated, while it may seem like I am "casting PLD in a bad light" or showing WAR to have better mitigation, I am not. One may be better in some situations while the other is better in other situations, but overall their defensive capabilities are approximately the same, which was the point of the changes made in 2.1, to put them on equal footing in that respect.

@Alphras

Don't forget the 20% to heals from Defiance when calculating survivability since that is where their sustainability mainly comes from ;)
IMO, the %hp boost is more there to accommodate for the larger numbers (HP out through damage, HP in through heals).

But yeah, as has been said the two tank stances result in an equivalent eHP boost.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

Don't forget the 20% to heals from Defiance when calculating eHP since that is where their eHP boost mainly comes from.

---

No, Alphras is exactly correct. eHP is just the number of hits you can take before you die without heals. What you're talking about is sustainability, or the amount of healing required to restore the tank to full. SHO is actually more effective in that regard, since the PLD is taking 20% less damage, he requires 20% less healing. Defiance provides 20% MORE healing, which at first glance seems the same as what SHO is doing, but it's not. In order to compare the two, we need to know how much LESS healing is required due to defiance. First you invert it to determine how much healing is required to heal to full with defiance on:

1 / 1.2 ~= 0.833333

so a WAR requires about 83% as much healing to be healed from 0 to full, which means they require 17% less healing due to Defiance, which is slightly worse than the 20% less healing needed when under shield oath. However, a WARs self heals will cover that discrepancy in most cases.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

Rampart and Inner Beast. While IB has a shorter uptime, it can be used more frequently as long as you are doing your rotations which results in approximately the same overall uptime for the two. The differences: IB does damage and has a self heal, but the big one is that they actually don't mitigate the same amount because of ShO being a base % damage reduction which means Rampart actually ends up being a 16% damage reduction while IB is still 20%. Also, as far as the difficulty of timing IB to big attacks, Infuriate + IB is available more often than Rampart so while you have to push one more button you can time it to more potential big attacks.

Sentinel and Vengeance. Sentinel with the trait says it does 40% damage reduction which actually results in a 32% damage reduction and lasts for 10 seconds and is on a CD timer of 180s. Vengeance does 30% damage reduction, does damage on being hit by physical attacks, lasts for 15s and has a 120s CD timer. So they have almost the same % damage reduction, but Vengeance does damage, lasts longer and can be used more often.

---

You're looking at these two wrong. You have to remember that while the eHP of a WAR and PLD are the same from Defiance and Shield Oath, the WAR has more actual HP and the WAR is taking more damage, exactly 25% more damage to be exact. This has been left out of your comparisons. In truth, the 20% reduction on Rampart is exactly as effective as the 20% reduction of IB. There's no difference in how it works in practice.

For example.

You have a PLD with 8000 HP. War in the same gear would have 10000 HP with Defiance. In this instance the WAR can take 10,000 damage before dying. The PLD in shield oath can take the same 10,000 damage before he dies (10,000 damage x 80% damage from shield oath = 8000 actual damage done to the PLD in this case, just enough to kill him). With Inner Beast active, the WAR can take 12,500 damage before he dies (12,500 damage x 80% damage from inner beast = 10,000 actual damage done to the WAR). With Rampart active, the PLD can take the same exact 12,500 damage before he dies (12,500 damage x 64% damage from both shield oath and rampart = 8000 actual damage to the PLD).

As you can see, both abilities are working the same way and allow the tank to take the exact same amount of extra damage before dying.

@ Giantsbane

I made the statement multiple times that while it seems like I am making the WAR mitigation look better than PLD, I am not and that overall their defensive capabilities are very equal, just tailored a little different.

Here is a direct quote from my last post.

"Lastly, as I originally stated, while it may seem like I am "casting PLD in a bad light" or showing WAR to have better mitigation, I am not. One may be better in some situations while the other is better in other situations, but overall their defensive capabilities are approximately the same, which was the point of the changes made in 2.1, to put them on equal footing in that respect."

The reason that I made the comparisons that I did for Rampart and Sentinel is because people kept looking at the % damage reductions additively instead of multiplicatively, which makes the PLD numbers seem better when the effective mitigation is actually the same as you have shown. Also because someone was trying to present Foresight as the correlative defensive CD for Rampart, where IB really should be.

However for the sake of clarity I have edited those statements as follows:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

Don't forget the 20% to heals from Defiance when calculating survivability since that is where their sustainability mainly comes from ;)
IMO, the %hp boost is more there to accommodate for the larger numbers (HP out through damage, HP in through heals).

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

The differences: IB does damage and has a self heal, but the big one is that they actually don't mitigate the same % amount because of ShO being a base % damage reduction which means Rampart actually ends up being a 16% damage reduction while IB is still 20%. When coupled with the tank stance buffs, their defensive gain is the same. Also, as far as the difficulty of timing IB to big attacks, Infuriate + IB is available more often than Rampart so while you have to push one more button you can time it to more potential big attacks.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

Sentinel and Vengeance. Sentinel with the trait says it does 40% damage reduction which actually results in a 32% damage reduction and lasts for 10 seconds and is on a CD timer of 180s. Vengeance does 30% damage reduction, does damage on being hit by physical attacks, lasts for 15s and has a 120s CD timer. When coupled with the tank stance benefits, they result in approximately the same defensive gains. Sentinel will provide a bit more mitigation per hit over a shorter period of time, while Vengeance lasts longer but has less mitigation per hit. However there still is the discrepancy of the cooldown times between the two (180s vs. 120s) and that Vengeance also does damage.

---

So again, main take away here is that the defensive capabilities/survivability of PLD and WAR are the same or at least very very close, with any major differences being situational.

Very good points all along the thread, and it is true that WAR and PLD are pretty much equal in their respective mitigations/eHP, at least on a factual numerical basis. In practice, both tanks have their own "niché", which differentiates them somewhat. (Physical vs. Magical damage handling mainly)

Only thing I would add on the discussion with WAR vs. PLD is that Warrior can on occasional situations, especially in the case of a less skilled WAR, be more draining for the healer's mana. This being due to the fact that even though they take more factual healing through the increased healing trait of Defiance, they can "spike" a bit more. As is, sometimes (through a personal experience while healing) I have noticed that Warrior tends to drop low suddenly more often than a Paladin, which is completely logical. A mitigation tank vs. HP tank scenario, even though both take similar, or exactly the same as was pointed out earlier, time to die, other one takes more rounded hits and other one takes more straight hits to the face.

Even though this does not change the actual numbers, it can be a difference between WHM casting Cure or Cure II, and the more it occurs the more strain can happen on healer's mana. This to emphasize the fact that WAR does take more focus to play right out of the box. (Not going for CD management which in turn is a high tactical/skill intensive play on PLDs part)

And as there has been suggestions flying around about how to change PLD, I will throw out some of mine. Even though I think PLD is very fine as it is, I would not mind some extra interactive play on our part/some little fanciness. The following ideas to reflect on that.
Oaths off the GCD. Manacost could and should stay, but the Oath dancing would add in itself a lot.

Shield Swipe off the GCD, with a 15 second CD in it. Blocking an attack has a 10% chance to reset the recast timer of Shield Swipe. Dealing damage with a Shield Swipe gives Paladin a shield similar to Stoneskin/Galvanize, lasting for 5-10 seconds and absorbing damage equal to 5% of the Paladin’s total HP. This effect cannot occur more often than every 30-45 seconds.
An ability that would add a small interaction to Paladin’s basic kit/rotation without altering core design much. The absorb granted by Shield Swipe gives PLD some additional interactive tools to deal with high magic damage, and in turn also prevents the ability to “be buried into a macro”. On the other hand, the shield occurs rarely so Shield Swipe is an additional Spirits Within/CoS, similar to BRDs Bloodletter.

Another thing that could be fancy, I have always liked the Paladin design in different game systems as the protector and frontliner, but also as a tool of retribution. Shield Oath could have a “porcupine effect”, in that blocking an attack while in a Shield Oath deals damage to the attacker with a potency of 20. This damage is minor at best, similar to CoS DoT but it is there as an additional AoE tanking tool.
Could go further and add a skill called, say, Reckoning. Maybe 180-300 second recast, duration 15 seconds. Would activate both Oaths at the same time, and allow PLD to benefit from both for the duration.

My 2, and somewhat more, cents.

Paladin is a fun class that has a lot of great tools and can use almost all of its skills effectively... in 4 man dungeons. However, in most 8 man content, Paladin loses a lot of buttons. I think that that, combined paladin having a lot of abilities that either have the same basic function (for example, Rampart/Bulwark/Sentinel/Foresight all reduce damage) or have limited usefulness, make the job fall behind in some areas. Paladin functions well as a tank, and it doesn't need a complete overhaul, but I think a few small changes would make it a lot more fun to play. Abilities I think could use a second look are:

Flash - loses blind effect in 8 man content (with a few exceptions).
Shield Swipe - loses Pacify effect in 8 man content (again, with exceptions), and doesn't work on a lot of 4 man stuff either. The damage increase from using the skill is a bit underwhelming. When you consider that this WS is one of the few "reaction" abilities in the game, it seems really lacking.
Shield Bash - Can't stun most stuff in 8 man. Other class stuns are off-gcd extra attacks. While I'd like to keep Bash on-gcd, I think this skill could be used creatively
Bulwark - The 60% block rate increase for this skill seems like it was just arbitrarily decided. Defensive cooldowns need to be reliable to deal with the big attacks in this game (Flatten, Ravensbeak, Death Sentence).
Tempered Will - Good, but too situation-dependent.
Awareness - This skill has always been bad. Final Coil and Shiva have abilities that were designed to make you want to use it, but it's still pretty bad. Also, it takes up a trait slot.
Riot Blade - Paladin's MP basically goes to three sources: Oaths, Stoneskin, and Flash. Of the three, really only Stoneskin should be done often enough in 8 man content to warrant an MP regen ability. Paladin is the only melee class with the ability to regenerate its own MP, but it doesn't even really use it. This is a huge wasted opportunity, IMO. Warrior has Wrath, paladin should have MP.


This is all just spitballing, and I don't expect anything even remotely like this to be implemented, but I'd like to see stuff along the lines of:

Shield Swipe allowing you to ignore the Shield Oath penalty for a short time (like 1-2 GCDs) after use.
The ability to use Shield Bash for extra damage in some way, with the limiting factor being its extreme TP cost.
Tempered Will getting a greatly reduced cooldown, or granting immunity to bind/heavy for the duration
Bulwark being more reliable and on a much shorter cooldown. Maybe something like 100% block rate for one attack on a 45s-1m cooldown.
More reasons to use MP in general. Riot Blade should be used regularly in our rotation. Alternatively - and this is a straight up nerf - move the STR debuff to Riot Blade.

Right now paladin's biggest weakness is damage dealt while tanking, and changes like those might help address it somewhat, while also making the class more interactive. Anyway, this is all pie-in-the-sky stuff, but with the expansion coming I do think it's important to point out areas where classes can be improved when it comes to core gameplay. Even if paladin ends up underpowered (or overpowered, or just right) in the expansion, I'd really like to be able to use more of my buttons in high end content.

2c as I'm not really a tank main nor theorycrafter for tanks, but I think the main issue with PLD isn't that it's bad at much (other than single-target damage) mechanically...

But there's something to be said for the fact that 90% of the time you're a one-combo job with an AOE button, some Off-GCDs, and a bundle of defensive cooldowns that aren't very exciting or interactive to use (compare timing Sentinel with managing Wrath/Infuriate/et al to get Inner Beast out in response to an incoming Big Attack, etc.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sokerimuro

Shield Oath could have a “porcupine effect”, in that blocking an attack while in a Shield Oath deals damage to the attacker with a potency of 20. This damage is minor at best, similar to CoS DoT but it is there as an additional AoE tanking tool.

---

You present some interesting ideas, but the one that really stood out to me was the one quoted above about a "porcupine" effect for ShO. I think this is really a neat idea as it would do two things that I would like. First off it adds a little extra dps to PLD while they are using ShO, which I feel they need. This coupled with making Spirits Within not be affected by the ShO damage reduction or HP% potency decrease would be a big help to bring them closer to where they should be. Also it has the side effect of increasing dps a decent amount when Bulwark is used, so it creates a correlative effect to the damage done by Vengeance. The potency may need to be upped seeing how Vengeance provides attacks of 50 potency, but then again maybe not. Having the effect tied to the shield and block, makes it feel very fitting to PLD. All in all a very good idea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

You present some interesting ideas, but the one that really stood out to me was the one quoted above about a "porcupine" effect for ShO. I think this is really a neat idea as it would do two things that I would like. First off it adds a little extra dps to PLD while they are using ShO, which I feel they need. This coupled with making Spirits Within not be affected by the ShO damage reduction or HP% potency decrease would be a big help to bring them closer to where they should be. Also it has the side effect of increasing dps a decent amount when Bulwark is used, so it creates a correlative effect to the damage done by Vengeance. The potency may need to be upped seeing how Vengeance provides attacks of 50 potency, but then again maybe not. Having the effect tied to the shield and block, makes it feel very fitting to PLD. All in all a very good idea.

---

Glad you like and picked up the same thing I was after, though I did not say it out originally: The synergy between this and our Bulwark ability.

One other thing of note is also the build possibilities this type of idea would enroll: Buckler type of shields would bring some interesting possibilities with their much higher block chance, to trigger this damage more often with weaker mitigation opposed to Tower type where the powerful blocks get much more value out of Bulwark but conversely dropping the dps/threat output. With Kite type standing the balanced middle ground. Little things, little things.

Basically, any changes PLD would get I feel should relate somehow to our shield. Because THAT is what makes us Paladins really, especially since the next upcoming tank is also a two-hander.