NINJA and ROGUE confirmed

Found it, 1:58:28, while Yoshida showing those 2 pictures, heard Rogue "class", Ninja "Job". T______T why~

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Originally Posted by poipoy

Found it, 1:58:28, while Yoshida showing those 2 pictures, heard Rogue "class", Ninja "Job". T______T why~

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So they can add THF as Job as well. <_>;;;;;

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Gang

Are you sure Rogue doesn't turn into both THF and NIN? or that they're both jobs and the base class hasn't been revealed.
After all, we're seeing 2 sets of AF.

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Well the Rogue's gear is actually dyed gear that already exists by the look of it. The headgear looks to be from the first dungeon but dyed green.

No one is sure that the Rogue will not turn into THF yet but they only announced Rogue > NIN so far. They did say more information on classes/jobs will be coming at Fanfest though. It is possible that we will get information on THF then.

They simply said that the Rogue's Guild was evolved from thievery. So, it's entirely possible we will get a job master to teach us in the ways of our guild's ancestors.

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Originally Posted by Nero

So they can add THF as Job as well. <_>;;;;;

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He literally referred to THFs as "petty" and the ROG gear is the classic THF look. ROG is THF just like ARC is RNG.

it's time to be a ninja. i have waited for this moment!

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Originally Posted by Kitru

ROG is THF just like ARC is RNG.

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Careful... some people are still in denial that BRD is a ranged DPS and are still waiting for RNG.

Why would the class and job have different weapons... looks like some form of dagger and then katanas...

Welcome to the new hell que times lol.

4 man party 1 tank 1 healer 2 ninja
8 man party 2 tank 2 healer 4 ninja - maybe an appearance of another lol.

If anything hope ninja gets a skill similar to bard ballad and silence abilities so they are not the pick of the litter anymore.

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

They simply said that the Rogue's Guild was evolved from thievery. So, it's entirely possible we will get a job master to teach us in the ways of our guild's ancestors.

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He said they stopped being thieves. It's not as if thievery is some kind of ancient tradecraft and basically said that it's not a heroic pursuit (not to mention pointing out that it has to fit within the story of the world). For all intents and purposes, he has said "nope, THF ain't happening".

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Originally Posted by Kitru

He literally referred to THFs as "petty" and the ROG gear is the classic THF look. ROG is THF just like ARC is RNG.

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Yep, does not hold them from adding "pure" THF as well. There can also be RNG beside BRD under ARC. After all THF is a Job and they did not use classical Job Names as Classes.

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Originally Posted by Ceons

Why would the class and job have different weapons... looks like some form of dagger and then katanas...

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I would surmise the katanas are NIN relic.

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Originally Posted by KaiKatzchen

Where is my GUNNER -_______-

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I'm also a little dissapointed ;_;

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Originally Posted by KaiKatzchen

Where is my GUNNER -_______-

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SE never gives away everything in one go. The PR guy won't let them.

Don't forget that new classes aren't coming until 2.4. Before then, we'll have new Live Letters, and Gamescom is in August (the month before 2.4 is due). There is plenty of time.

Just like adding Thief could be Ninja'd into the game come patch day.

I didn't get to watch the stream but something I have not seen anyone mention yet is where this rogue guild is going to be. Did they say in the live stream? Of the existing cities LL makes the most sense since it still has less guilds than the other 2 cities. But that's only because the musketeers guild isn't being used yet. If they add it to mor dhona that would make it impossible to have it as a starting class for new players.

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Originally Posted by Ulathskullsplitter

I didn't get to watch the stream but something I have not seen anyone mention yet is where this rogue guild is going to be. Did they say in the live stream? Of the existing cities LL makes the most sense since it still has less guilds than the other 2 cities. But that's only because the musketeers guild isn't being used yet. If they add it to mor dhona that would make it impossible to have it as a starting class for new players.

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Given Limsa is full of sea-thieves, and Thancred and the Doman are being told to instruct the city in their forms of combat in the main story quest, I'd bet Limsa.

Pretty sad its Rogue > Ninja.

I was hoping for a dual Job like Arcanist

Rogue > Ninja > Thief

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Originally Posted by Nero

Yep, does not hold them from adding "pure" THF as well. There can also be RNG beside BRD under ARC. After all THF is a Job and they did not use classical Job Names as Classes.

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It amazes me how much people are willing to ignore to preserve their own viewpoints in the face of an overwhelming amount of evidence to the contrary.

Yoshi explained why it wasn't named THF, and it had absolutely nothing to do with THF being a job, historically. The base class is being called "Rogue" because "Thief" doesn't work as the name of a heroic class/job in the framework of the world. It doesn't work as a heroic class/job because it is a *petty* profession (his own words).

There is no possible interpretation of what Yoshi has said that even remotely suggests that we will ever get THF and, in fact, everything Yoshi has said on the subject would support the entire *opposite* conclusion.

The only reason that you guys still think that there's even the remotest chance we're going to get THF as a job is because he has not simply come out and said "you're not getting thief so just shut up about it", which he's not going to because it's looking for a very explicit answer (that, since it's basically going to be saying "no, you already have ROG", would force him to evade it because no dev team is ever going to simply say outright "no, you're not getting this"). There only evidence you have is negative (e.g. stuff he hasn't said), and you're ignoring all of the positive evidence (e.g. he *has* said this).

At this point, you're straining to hold on to the faintest hopes and acting as if it's solid evidence. Seriously, just give up on it.

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Originally Posted by Themis

SE never gives away everything in one go. The PR guy won't let them.

Don't forget that new classes aren't coming until 2.4. Before then, we'll have new Live Letters, and Gamescom is in August (the month before 2.4 is due). There is plenty of time.

Just like adding Thief could be Ninja'd into the game come patch day.

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Yah take note of the comment in the stream regarding them getting the evil eye from the PR guy lol

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Originally Posted by Kitru

He said they stopped being thieves. It's not as if thievery is some kind of ancient tradecraft and basically said that it's not a heroic pursuit (not to mention pointing out that it has to fit within the story of the world). For all intents and purposes, he has said "nope, THF ain't happening".

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The base class is being called "Rogue" because "Thief" doesn't work as the name of a heroic class/job in the framework of the world. It doesn't work as a heroic class/job because it is a *petty* profession (his own words).

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He did NOT call the profession petty but simply said that if you were to think of a thieves guild you would think of petty thievery. He's basically saying Rogue has a more substantial name because they're rogues not just focusing on thievery but also in poisons and stealth attacks. He also said nothing of heroism. In fact he mentioned having stealth and attacks only executable while the effect is active which is not very "heroic" at all.

Re-watching the part right now:

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"It's like a thief. I mean you have the classes in FFXIV, they fit in with the story each class has their own guild and their own history. And so when we're thinking of creating a new class and a class that would have its own guild you think thieves and that's more like petty thievery and you want something a little bit more solid. So the story-wise this new rogue class - they were once thieves and they over the years have evolved into this rogue class with their own guild and they'll have their own story and background. ... But again they do have that thief history so we wanna make sure that in the lore and in the story that you have that feeling that they came up from thieves. "

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This means that during the Rogue story line we will learn that they are like thieves but different. Absolutely no reason why they cannot learn old techniques through a job master that resented the change into rogues.

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Originally Posted by Themis

SE never gives away everything in one go. The PR guy won't let them.

Don't forget that new classes aren't coming until 2.4. Before then, we'll have new Live Letters, and Gamescom is in August (the month before 2.4 is due). There is plenty of time.

Just like adding Thief could be Ninja'd into the game come patch day.

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Exactly! Just like back when SE told us about ACN and SMN and everyone thought that was it. Then we found out about SCH and everyone was really surprised.

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Originally Posted by Scott

I was hoping for a dual Job like Arcanist

Rogue > Ninja > Thief

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And how exactly would THF work as a job that's complimentary to NIN? Jobs only get 5 abilities, and it's pretty simple logic to realize that they're not going to have 2 jobs (whether from the same class or from different ones) that play almost identically, which, thanks to the number of job abilities provided (and the fact that they're provided at 30, 35, 40, 45, and 50) can't happen with 2 jobs of the same role off of the same class (unless you have the job change so many abilities from the base class that it becomes a completely *different* class, which beggars the question of why they didn't just design a new class altogether).

Yoshi has said that NIN is going to be DPS because having it as a tank is ludicrous which means that THF would have to be DPS. He has also said that they're only going to add jobs that fulfill a currently vacant niche (of course, both of these statements should be patently obvious to anyone that has the slightest inkling of what game development entails). So contemplate this:

What role would THF fulfill that isn't DPS? Support isn't a role, it's a subrole (and wouldn't make the class play differently anyways), so that's right out. It makes no sense for THF to be a healer since it's never had anything resembling those capabilities. It makes even *less* sense for THF to be a tank because THF has always had abilities to *avoid* fights and has taken hits only marginally better than a caster (and, in fact, worse than MNK or DRG has). People make the claim that it could *possibly* be a hybrid, but it takes a major stretch of the imagination to see THF performing the same functions as a RDM. There *isn't* a role for THF to occupy.

What niche would THF fill that isn't taken up by ROG and NIN? ROG and NIN are already the light armored, dual dagger wielding, stealthy class that uses poisons. WAR is the martial tank while PLD is the "holy" tank. WHM is the traditional healer while SCH is the pet/shield healer. SMN is the standard DPS caster while SMN is the DoT/pet DPS caster. DRG is medium armored spear using DPS (less positioning requirements) while MNK is light armored "unarmed" DPS (more positioning requirements). There *isn't* a niche remaining for THF to occupy.

There is absolutely no reason that anyone can come up with that we will ever get THF beyond "Yoshi hasn't said we're not getting it". As I have said over and over and over again, if you actually *look* at what evidence there is (without trying to twist it and find a loophole to create an out for yourself whereupon you're not looking at the evidence; you're trying to find a way around it), it's plain to see that the closest we're getting to THF is ROG (and, it could *easily* be argued, that ROG *is* THF).

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Stuff

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Steal-Stats (STR/DEX/INT/etc)
Steal-Attributes (Evasion/Accuracy/Defense/Attack)
Stealth attacks
Mug (Increases party gil drop by a minor amount of inflicts damage)
Trick Attack (Deals increased damage for next ability and transfers hate to party member)

I could go on, and all of these are just from two FF titles. I'd argue your "NIN as a tank is ludicrous!" line is in fact more ludicrous than "Thieves wouldn't be welcome in a city of sea-thieves in a world that encourages dark arts users, thievery already, assassinations, and will literally in the same patch put in a class that is pretty much always described lore-wise as unethical assassins. There's precedent for one, there is no precedent and (evidence to the contrary) for the other.

That being said, I agree they're not adding Thief. I disagree with the reasoning though. As anyone should, saying thieves wouldn't be morally acceptable with a city of literal sea-thieves being in existence, and now an assassin job is just asinine.

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

Exactly! Just like back when SE told us about ACN and SMN and everyone thought that was it. Then we found out about SCH and everyone was really surprised.

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SCH actually makes sense to add because it's explicitly different than ACN and has a completely different role. Furthermore, the *reason* they added SCH wasn't "well, SCH is a class that has appeared often" (which is the logic you're using). The reason they added SCH was because they needed another healer so that there wasn't a single option for that role. It split off of SMN because it was something of a shortcut while providing an interesting playstyle option (healer with a healing pet).

On top of this, SCH could become a healer because SCH basically had no defined role or capability in the FF series. It was, basically, a tabula rasa that they could co-opt and turn into the healer that they needed.

THF fulfills exactly *none* of those reasons. Saying that SCH sets a precedent for THF is like saying that Newton being right about Physics means that Alchemy (which, interesting fact, he focused on a *lot* more than Physics; he's just more famous for his work on Physics) is almost certainly correct.

You're using *any* justification you can find, no matter how flimsy, to avoid having to confront the pretty simple concept that we're not getting THF. At this point, you're just proving how obtuse you're willing to get to avoid being wrong.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

He said they stopped being thieves. It's not as if thievery is some kind of ancient tradecraft and basically said that it's not a heroic pursuit (not to mention pointing out that it has to fit within the story of the world). For all intents and purposes, he has said "nope, THF ain't happening".

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Zidane Tribal isn't heroic?

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Originally Posted by Scarletyoshi

Please Let it Go. :)

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The very fact that you responded proves my point. Since I didn't name anyone. At least you know you are flaming and owning it.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

(which is the logic you're using)

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You're wrong, that is not the logic I am using. The logic I am using is that because they have surprised us once before by keeping a 2nd job stemming from the same class a secret means that they could do it again this time and reveal it in a live letter just like last time or more likely at Fanfest.

THF has historically (as much as you may like to discount XI, it is still FF history) had control of enmity management (such as directly stealing 25-50% of another player's enmity to raise their own) and has been sturdier than NIN from a stat perspective in almost every title they appeared together. Yes, thematically THF has avoided battles with Flee but thievery in itself thematically draws ire. Do you like people that steal from you? Whether that is a physical item, prestige, a job, an idea etc. I'd bet that you wouldn't like it. That alone is good enough reason in my opinion for supporting a Thief tank. Having Rogue tank is also a staple niche in just about every MMO which is also missing from FFXIV.

There is also the new Hybrid role to make a future appearance which it could also fill via support as Bigpurpleharness has expressed.

Thief tank? I can't with this thread anymore lol

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Originally Posted by LoLo

Zidane Tribal isn't heroic?

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Apparently Locke, Ruben, Zidane, and if you listen to some people, Edge and Yuffie are all not heroes. Which is news to me. (Also excluding, I, III, V, X-2, etc since the job systems are more fluid)

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Originally Posted by Esmian

So you want a politician class?

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yes, only if i can rig elections and bribe people.

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Originally Posted by Bigpurpleharness

Locke

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We all know Locke isn't a thief.

http://i.imgur.com/BIMW1lL.png

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Originally Posted by Keres

We all know Locke isn't a thief.

http://i.imgur.com/BIMW1lL.png

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Have an upvote!

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Originally Posted by LoLo

Thief tank? I can't with this thread anymore lol

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There are at least two current MMO's that use a rogue-type tank effectively. Rift and Wildstar. It is also present in SWTOR but I haven't experience in that game.

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

There are at least two current MMO's that use a rogue-type tank effectively. Rift and Wildstar.

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Oh, ok. I am totally ignorant to both games. I pretty much only play this game because it is a Final Fantasy.

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Originally Posted by LoLo

Oh, ok. I am totally ignorant to both games. I pretty much only play this game because it is a Final Fantasy.

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There are more than that, SW:TOR also uses assassin/shadow tanks. It can be done, for sure. I just want thief, they could make it any role they want as long as it's fun and useful.

Wonder if Ninja will be tank or damage

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Originally Posted by shanvhere

Wonder if Ninja will be tank or damage

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Pure damage, like it's supposed to be. Confirmed by Yoshi himself.

I really hope they dont add thief. I want a melee healer dancer instead, not two jobs that fill the same (already stuffed) role with only a few differences between them. And unless you want to wait for an expansion, thief would just be a dps, since yoshi said no new tanks or healers til then.

What about non-healer support classes? They're meant to be coming at some point...

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Originally Posted by Jacost

What about non-healer support classes? They're meant to be coming at some point...

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I'd guess they'll introduce hybrid roles on an expansion or major patches, and they'll come then.

I'm guessing the main stat will be DEX, rather than STR (because dual wielding).

I am curious as to what secondary class will be needed. I could see cross classing from pugilist and archer pretty easily. Probably be a good idea to level a pug just to be safe.

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Originally Posted by gamersince1976

I'm guessing the main stat will be DEX, rather than STR (because dual wielding).

I am curious as to what secondary class will be needed. I could see cross classing from pugilist and archer pretty easily. Probably be a good idea to level a pug just to be safe.

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Walter White, I was thinking Archer/Marauder, since Merlwyb (<3) was a pirate and she dual wields.