Do you think the devs intended multi-flare blm?

Yeah, let's remove the one thing blm is good at.

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Originally Posted by Moirear

So, when you wrote that I was doing good while I wrote that that BLM is essentially the best AoE DPS job but not anymore when I proceeded to also argue that the job is pretty bad when it comes to single target dps or being forced to move a lot, then proceeded to repeat what I said in different words, you... wait, what was your point exactly?

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I agreed with you on the part that parsers skew players perception of what's going on.

BLM have as many flaws as other jobs. While BLM don't parse HIGH on Parsers when it is single target it's simply because of how their rotation works not because they have a massive design flaw and they need a major revamp like some people react to such extremes. The moving part isn't that of a deal as people make it out to be.

I don't know why you and others go to extremes to try and make a point instead of just being rational and yes I agree but not with that part of your post.

Never in my life have I seen people care so much about losing a little DPS that they go bonkers over it.

To OP. Multiflare is intended by devs. Actually Flare is BLM's visit card and really the only one useful spell from the job. Also have in mind that Doubleflare can only be executed once per 3 minutes (Convert cd) and Tripleflare once per 5 minuted (pot cd). This does not make any impact on gameplay aside from Brayflox farm.

I do agree that BLM has its place in the game. But there should be a place for it in endgame (read raids).
Currently there are several problems that make BLM bad for raids:
1. It suffers too much from movement/avoiding mechanics. Interrupting casts midcast without decent filler (scathe is sooo bad)
2. It has totally low single target DPS even if standing still
3. There are very few situations where BLM can show his AOE potential.
- Levi - none (maybe 1 swiftcasted flare on 2 adds if tanks stack them)
- T6 - 1 swiftcasted flare for central bulb (once or twice in a fight)
- T7 - none, all mobs are spread out to avoid melee being cleaved
- T8 - Flaring Dreads 2 times
- T9 - none, all mobs are always spread out
- Fore most of these situations SMN is much better to Bane/Enkindle
4. It totally relies on RNG on Firestarter and Thundercloud procs and those procs almost can't serve a purpose to plan on movement.
5. Firestarter and Thundercloud procs overwrite themselves if they are not being used immediately.

What I am proposing to do to counter most of these problems:
- Change both Firestarter and Thundercloud to be a stackable buff like Umbral Ice with 3 stacks.
- Increase probability on Thundercloud procs drastically. 5% is so low that you can't ever expect it to proc in time for anything. Maybe 25-30% could do the trick however it is still so much relying on luck... I expect at least 2 thundercloud procs per fire rotation.
- (optionally) increase probability of Firestarter proc to 50-60%.
- (optionally) increase duration on Firestarter and Thundercloud procs to allow situational usage of them.

As a result we get:
- Increased single target DPS. Imagine us having Thundercloud for Ice phase. There won't be a situation when say add spawns requiring immediate DPS but we are oom and can provide only our downtime fillers for it...
- Being able to plan on movement having stacked a couple of fire/thunder procs
- We are not overpowering BLM as he still can't stack all these until he stands and hardcasts Fire/Thunder

@ Pacifyer

Your changes won't don't much of anything. Like you said even standing still blm damage for single target is bad. So why would stackable procs help? They will just use a GCD anyways, and there is the biggest issue of them all. When you get a fire proc it is NOT off GCD so in reality it doesn't help as much as it should.

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Originally Posted by Mardel

@ Pacifyer

Your changes won't don't much of anything. Like you said even standing still blm damage for single target is bad. So why would stackable procs help? They will just use a GCD anyways, and there is the biggest issue of them all. When you get a fire proc it is NOT off GCD so in reality it doesn't help as much as it should.

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It will help. As for Firestarter this will help to:
- Avoid loss of consequent procs overwriting
- Plan on using stacks for burst/movement

As for Thundercloud:
- Increase Ice phase DPS drastically to equalize it with Fire phase
- Plan on using stacks for burst/movement
Have in mind I mentioned drastical proc rate increase.

Putting any of these procs off gcd may end up being OP in some situations especially in PvP.

And I should say - do not expect a strong buff to BLM. It is not THAT useless. But some tweaks like I mentioned might negate this gap and make it at least viable for most situations.

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Originally Posted by Pacifyer

It will help. As for Firestarter this will help to:
- Avoid loss of consequent procs overwriting
- Plan on using stacks for burst/movement

As for Thundercloud:
- Increase Ice phase DPS drastically to equalize it with Fire phase
- Plan on using stacks for burst/movement

Putting any of these procs off gcd may end up being OP in some situations especially in PvP.

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If the procs still have timers then won't they just disappear overtime? Unless you what you want is essentially aetherflow for blm. If this happens then soon people wouldn't want a smn change because killing faster/sooner is always better than later.
If anything they should have changed it so:

1. thundercloud let you use "Burst" (potent strong lightning attack)
2. build fire starters to "Flare" (kind of how warrior wrath works) Not the crappy flare we have now but like a big boom, (not draining the mp pool completely).
3. Freeze should have been an Ice Sheet AoE circle like bard's fire circle. Where each "tick" gave you back some mp and did light damage to the monsters inside.
4. Made scathe a dot of sorts, maybe a baby "Foe Req." 5% extra magic damage on target
5. Apocatasis is an AoE buff around you and just helps negate magic damage in general.
6. Aetherial Manipulation takes you to the target, but decreases the cost of the next spell used in half. (Blm version of Presence of Mind)


Any of these would be a very nice way to change blm. Alternatively they could change it back to 1.23 where thunder was the big single target damage and all fire spells were AoE

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Originally Posted by Mardel

If the procs still have timers then won't they just disappear overtime? Unless you what you want is essentially aetherflow for blm. If this happens then soon people wouldn't want a smn change because killing faster/sooner is always better later.

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First read what I wrote
- (optionally) increase duration on Firestarter and Thundercloud procs to allow situational usage of them.
Second, having them permanent may end up abusing them for extreme burst in some situations and will be OP. What I intend here is to allow BLM to react on boss mechanics without severe DPS loss like it is now, to increase ST DPS due to Thundercloud proc rate and remove ice phase downtime.
With these changes I expect dummy dps increase for like 15% and a severe decrease of an impact of boss mechanics. I would not ask for more.

As to your proposed changes - they are ment to do a complete rework on the class. And I am proposing to make minor changes to it with quite predictabl eresults addressing current problems.

God I hate the fact that (in my personal experience) 90% bards and blackmages forget they have quelling strikes. If you insist on going all out in the first 5 seconds of battle, at least have the decency to use quelling. It isn't a sign that you are a good DD if you pull threat from the tank as so many people have gotten into their heads. It also isn't a sign that the tank is bad if you pull threat from them. There are a lot more things a tank needs to watch out for than a DD, specifically when it comes to AOE pulls and they don't need their job made harder. I make a wish every night before bed that people will eventually stop thinking everything is a race and realize that waiting 5 seconds before you pop your cooldowns make life easier for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Pacifyer

To OP. Multiflare is intended by devs. Actually Flare is BLM's visit card and really the only one useful spell from the job. Also have in mind that Doubleflare can only be executed once per 3 minutes (Convert cd) and Tripleflare once per 5 minuted (pot cd). This does not make any impact on gameplay aside from Brayflox farm.

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I don't think you know what the multi-flare rotation is cause it's not what you said.

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Originally Posted by Akujin

I tear hate off tanks all the time with my flares lol

And actually you can do 3 at full power, boosted further with Raging Strikes. The timer on Raging is just long enough for 3 flares actually.

Raging>Swift+Flare>Convert>Flare>Pop Mega Ether>Flare>Raging ends. Couple it with Foe and it's quite a spectacular sight.

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Usually when BLMs pull hate off of me it's because of some nice crits in a double or triple flare combined with their failure to use QS. Would that come in at the beginning of the rotation or at some other point?

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Originally Posted by Zakalwe

Usually when BLMs pull hate off of me it's because of some nice crits in a double or triple flare combined with their failure to use QS. Would that come in at the beginning of the rotation or at some other point?

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Quelling comes before Raging Strikes

So it's usually always

QS > RS > Flare > Flare > QS ends > Flare > RS ends

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Quelling comes before Raging Strikes

So it's usually always

QS > RS > Flare > Flare > QS ends > Flare > RS ends

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Thx. I don't BLM and was wondering.

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Originally Posted by Zakalwe

Thx. I don't BLM and was wondering.

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You asked an honest question gave you an honest answer.

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Originally Posted by Ryans

I don't think you know what the multi-flare rotation is cause it's not what you said.

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Most of people here talk about conventional, intended multiflare (double or tripple). This is what concerns most of tanks and this combination pulls agro off them.
And ofcourse I am aware of an exploit with manaticks allowing infinite use of (Transpose - Flare - Fire II - Flare - Transpose) but there are almost no encounters in the game where mobs really survive after initial 3x Fire II + Double(tripple)flare. And if they do and tank still got control over agro - it is not a problem. This exploit is not game breaking at all and has absolutely no impact on end game content (raids or primals).

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Originally Posted by Pacifyer

And ofcourse I am aware of an exploit with manaticks allowing infinite use of (Transpose - Flare - Fire II - Flare - Transpose)

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That's not an exploit. People throw that word around almost as much as they do "toxic". OMG! look! that Warrior can swing his axe right after he got done swinging his axe. . exploit!

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Originally Posted by Spot

That's not an exploit. People throw that word around almost as much as they do "toxic". OMG! look! that Warrior can swing his axe right after he got done swinging his axe. . exploit!

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You may classify this however you want but it does not work as intended.
It is intended that after casting Flare you should be dry on mana with Fire3 buff on you which means you may recover from it only by using Transpose, Convert, Pot or bard Ballad. Which is not the case.
Playing around mana ticks as well as timing autoattacks is a legit practice and I do not argue this.

So basicly you are exploiting server code flaw to achieve your results. However this exploit has such a minor impact on gameplay and requires major code changes so that SE just ignores it for now.

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Originally Posted by Pacifyer

Most of people here talk about conventional, intended multiflare (double or tripple). This is what concerns most of tanks and this combination pulls agro off them.
And ofcourse I am aware of an exploit with manaticks allowing infinite use of (Transpose - Flare - Fire II - Flare - Transpose) but there are almost no encounters in the game where mobs really survive after initial 3x Fire II + Double(tripple)flare. And if they do and tank still got control over agro - it is not a problem. This exploit is not game breaking at all and has absolutely no impact on end game content (raids or primals).

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I don't see how the convert/potion flare rotation could possibly not be intended. It is a pretty basic design. The transpose flare allows for three flares and a fire 2 during the span of raging strikes and it does a hell of a lot more damage than the traditional rotation.

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Originally Posted by Spot

That's not an exploit. People throw that word around almost as much as they do "toxic". OMG! look! that Warrior can swing his axe right after he got done swinging his axe. . exploit!

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It can only be assumed that it is an exploit because of the fact that they already changed the way black mage gets mp back after a fire cast with the ice buff up. It used to allow for the tick of mana to happen up to a second after you casted a fire spell and even allow for the next fire spell to have the casting speed increase as well as the damage increase of the fire buff. This is basically the same thing it's just harder for the player to do.

it's quite hysterical that ppl are arguing over killing a pack of mobs in 10 seconds, or 12 seconds, with 2 flares, or 4 flares, using ethers or pot of int...

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Originally Posted by Ryans

It can only be assumed that it is an exploit because of the fact that they already changed the way black mage gets mp back after a fire cast with the ice buff up. It used to allow for the tick of mana to happen up to a second after you casted a fire spell and even allow for the next fire spell to have the casting speed increase as well as the damage increase of the fire buff. This is basically the same thing it's just harder for the player to do.

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You are probably unaware what exploit is discussed. Ofc it is not about using convert or pots.
Look closely to rotation (Transpose - Flare - Fire II - Flare - Transpose)
I've highlighted the problem part for you.
After Transpose wait for mana tick, then 2 seconds more and start casting Flare. You will still get a mana tick right after Flare allowing you to cast Fire II and another Flare already being under effect of Fire3.
However this minor bug can't really be used mostly anywhere cause for it mobs should live longer than your full initial AOE rotation and this can only happen in dungeons with undergeared players.

Well... At first I stayed away from this thread, cause nothing good will come from it... And I question why the OP actually started a thread for this anyways, as it serves no purpose. I never understood why threads like this get started.... Just like the Bard situation back in the day. People were complaining, and whining about Bard damage (Damage mind you that didn't hinder you, but helped you progressed through a dungeon faster) and you did nothing but get one of your fellow adventurers nerfed. And now you want to bring to people's attention that we throwing extra flares?

I mean what good will come of this? It get taken away? And now your speed runs are a little bit slower, those situations were flares gets the mobs dead, and saves the tank that was about to die, you want that gone? If a Scholar had some kind of secret that was getting more healing potency, and was curing the tank, and keeping him alive, why would I make a thread about it, so that they can take it away? This is the main reason that I haven't taught every black mage in the world how to do this. If you can do it, great, have fun and keep it on the low...

Let this thread be buried, and burned with the rest of them... I accomplished this a mere 3 days after the patch that tried to get rid of it, but did I tell anyone? No... Only a select few and I told them not to tell anyone. LOL Now it's being blasted by BLM's in youtube videos, and people thinking they doing something new... And now its being blasted by a man questioning his tanking ability because some noob BLM was taught the rotation, but didn't control it properly with Quelling strikes.

It's not changing the game, and making it harder to keep hate on mobs... Sometimes bad, and impatient DD's pull hate. They will always be around. With Blm comes great power, and you must learn how to control that power. Period...

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

And to think, BLM's are complaining that they are gimped compared to other classes, begging for tweaks to make them "more viable"...

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Yeah, because SRing is relevant content compared to actually being viable in serious raids.

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Originally Posted by Pacifyer

You are probably unaware what exploit is discussed. Ofc it is not about using convert or pots.
Look closely to rotation (Transpose - Flare - Fire II - Flare - Transpose)
I've highlighted the problem part for you.
After Transpose wait for mana tick, then 2 seconds more and start casting Flare. You will still get a mana tick right after Flare allowing you to cast Fire II and another Flare already being under effect of Fire3.
However this minor bug can't really be used mostly anywhere cause for it mobs should live longer than your full initial AOE rotation and this can only happen in dungeons with undergeared players.

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I don't think you are aware that I'm the one that brought up that flare rotation. It is definitely not intended to work that way.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

it's because you combo'd if you have a blm that is gonna spam flare you gotta spam flash>flare at least for me i have never lost to a blm who flares.

now also you can only do 2 flares (at full power) in a row after that you are doing ice flares which are pathetic in damage i was doing some sr's and had a blm do 5 flares, 2 full power aka fire 3 flare convert swift cast flare then transpose flare blizard flare transpose flare. which the last 3 did 1/3rd the damage of 1 of the full power ones, while the monsters still died fast it would have been easier to just double flare fire 2 them.

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Or just maybe try... flare (regular fast cast from being in rotation), (save a fire 3 proc) convert - swiftcast - flare - transpose, wait for a tick or two of mana and use the fire 3 proc and try to fast cast your 3rd flare. Then pop your best ether and go right into bliz 3.

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Originally Posted by Rhas

Or just maybe try... flare (regular fast cast from being in rotation), (save a fire 3 proc) convert - swiftcast - flare - transpose, wait for a tick or two of mana and use the fire 3 proc and try to fast cast your 3rd flare. Then pop your best ether and go right into bliz 3.

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You can't get your Fire 3 proc cause you do not use Fire 1 in AOE situation. All you do is Fire3 -> 3x Fire2 -> Flare -> Convert -> Swiftcast -> Flare
Again, if you are using Fire1 somewhere is is definitely a dps loss and you are doing something wrong.
And doing this in single target rotation I can't see much use of it cause it is a very small dps gain and can occur very rarely due to aether pot cd.

I find a lot of tanks shoot themselves in the foot by opting for lots of small pulls. I can only use Quelling every 2 minutes, so if you're pulling 3 mobs at a time you'd better hope you can hold hate on the pulls where I don't have Quelling available. This is especially bad in Brayflox speed runs when tanks decide to split the first pull in half. The second pull is either I hold back DPS and pray the tank doesn't die due to the slow kills or I produce maximum DPS and risk dying. There's also the tanks in Halatali hard who love to pull 3 mobs then 6 or whatever. Most BLMs will use their Quelling on the 3 but not have it for the 6, but I've come to expect this and don't use it straight away.

You could say "wahh wahh i dun wan 2 sped run" but when the whole group is i90+ and the healer barely has to heal because you're pulling so little mobs you have to ask yourself why you're doing it. I don't tend to complain because it's the tank's job to set the pace of the run, but it certainly puts me off doing roulettes because I can clear Brayflox 3 times via PF in the time a roulette run takes.

I don't like the Transpose > Flare rotation and prefer to opt for the standard Fire 3 > Fire 2 x3 > Double Flare. If the tank pulls enough mobs (6+) I will spend a mega ether and triple flare, or double if convert isn't up.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

I can crit that high and I don't even need FoE.

I can be overly dramatic and sarcastic too.

I sure am talking bs because I guess I never run myth/soldiery farms and when I do I don't bother having my eyes on the screen and mobs just magically drop before me. God forbid numbers popping up on my screen showing how much damage my abilities do.

Honestly don't bother replying back since you are now on my ignore list.

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Originally Posted by Amaret

Srsly, just give us a Screenshot for prove and this discussion is done :P

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Still Waiting :D.

The best BLM AoE rotation I've seen is

Quelling Strikes > Fire 2 > Fire 2 > Raging Strikes > Fire 2 > Fire 2 > Swiftcast > Flare > Convert > Flare > Ether > Flare > (begin looping block)

Looping block: Transpose > Fire 3 > (Fire 2) > Flare > ...
Fire2 being used dependent on when the MP tick occurs in Umbral phase (if early, use Fire 2 prior to Flare).

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Originally Posted by Billzey

I think you are overestimating BLM's DPS. They may be best at AoE damage, but the entire speed of the run depends on both trash+boss kills. Any DRG/BRD should have no trouble pulling higher DPS than BLM over the entire run. In fact, my fastest runs have always been with DRG + BRD.

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After several hundreds of pugs in 2.2, my experience is very different. BLM + BLM absolutely melts everything. Other classes simply don't even come close. A raging strikes flare crit on 6 mobs is way way beyond anything any other class can dish. SMN can get close but only with great luck on the bane spreads.

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Originally Posted by Amaret

Still Waiting :D.

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1.) Soldiery hasn't been reset
2.) I don't do my soldiery runs early but late in the afternoon.

So if you wanna keep waiting go ahead.

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Originally Posted by Raenryong

snip

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That's a bad triple flare rotation since those fire 2's are gimped.

Second thing you described is a poor mans flare and blm resort to it during the 2nd pull group pull in brayflox if they kill the 1st boss fast enough that their cooldowns are not up yet.

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Originally Posted by Mishayangg

After several hundreds of pugs in 2.2, my experience is very different. BLM + BLM absolutely melts everything. Other classes simply don't even come close. A raging strikes flare crit on 6 mobs is way way beyond anything any other class can dish. SMN can get close but only with great luck on the bane spreads.

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I don't even get to triple flare in BR HM anymore if the pulls are perfect since the people I group with a BLM in 90 gear and levi weapon does enough damage to melt the groups, with the help of the warriors overpower spam and healers holy or scholars shadow flare.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

That's a bad triple flare rotation since those fire 2's are gimped.

Second thing you described is a poor mans flare and blm resort to it during the 2nd pull group pull in brayflox if they kill the 1st boss fast enough that their cooldowns are not up yet.

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It's not though - it's far more DPS. You can either calculate this mathematically, or via use of parse.

(01:03) Raid DPS: 1835; YOU - 1199DPS (65%) - first pull
(01:08) Raid DPS: 1466; YOU - 878DPS (59%) - second pull
(00:55) Raid DPS: 1240; YOU - 842DPS (67%) - third pull

i81 BLM, no Foe Requiem.

"Standard" methods tend to top out below that, even with better gear than mine (which is nothing special).

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

And to think, BLM's are complaining that they are gimped compared to other classes, begging for tweaks to make them "more viable"...

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Yeah, because outside of brayflox you see this happening ALL the time <rolls eyes>

Let n represent number of targets.

I think your suggested rotation was

Fire 3 > RS > Fire 2 x3 > Flare x3
Total time (0 speed): 21s

220 + (100 * 1.8 * 1.2 * n) * 3 + (260 * 1.8 * 1.2 * n) * 3 = 220 + 648n + 1684.8n potency

Time adjustment: 214.72 + 632.448n + 1644.3648n (~2.4% slower => ~2.4% DPS loss) potency

Fire 2 > Fire 2 > RS > Fire 2 > Fire 2 > Flare x3
Total time (0 speed): 20.5s

(100 * n) + (100 * 1.4 * n) + (100 * 1.6 * 1.2 * n) + (100 * 1.8 * 1.2 * n) + (260 * 1.8 * 1.2 * n) *3 = 648n + 1684.8n potency

214.72 + 632.448n + 1644.3648n = 648n + 1684.8n
214.72 = 55.9872n
Equalisation point is therefore n = 3.835... (3dp)
Therefore, if number of targets is four or higher, second rotation is optimal.

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Originally Posted by Raenryong

i81 BLM

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Is this really your ilvl?

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Originally Posted by Raenryong

snip

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So you have no Astral Fire 3 buff in that second rotation until you've gotten 8(?) seconds in which only covers 1 Fire II and then your 3 flares in which you're telling me you're doing more damage because it takes ~2.4% less time? Sorry but no thanks.

Also if you can't Triple Flare without keeping RS up because of lack of spell speed you consider only using 2 Fire II.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Is this really your ilvl?

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On my BLM, yeah. It is my lowest ilevel along with SMN. Never really play the casters aside from speedruns/messing around.

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So you have no Astral Fire 3 buff in that second rotation until you've gotten 8(?) seconds in which only covers 1 Fire II and then your 3 flares in which you're telling me you're doing more damage because it takes ~2.4% less time? Sorry but no thanks.

Also if you can't Triple Flare without keeping RS up because of lack of spell speed you consider only using 2 Fire II.

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Look at the math for yourself! It is made up for by the fact that you are hitting multiple targets with that first Fire 2. Depending on how many targets that is (well, 4+ to be precise), it's a good damage lead.

My rotation also has RS up for all three Flares.

Taking just the [F3 > F2 x3], and [F2 x4], ignoring the Flares and Raging.

220 + (180*3)n
220 + 560n = RotA

100 + 140 + 160 + 180 = 580n = RotB

If n = 3,
RotA = 1900
RotB = 1740

If n = 4,
RotA = 2460
RotB = 2320

If n = 5
RotA = 3020
RotB = 2900

If n = 11
RotA = 6380
RotB = 6380

If you ask me, the tried and true standard (RotA) seems better without Raging. Perhaps I'm doing the math wrong though.

You're missing the time component - damage per time is a more useful figure than damage.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

it's because you combo'd if you have a blm that is gonna spam flare you gotta spam flash>flare at least for me i have never lost to a blm who flares.

now also you can only do 2 flares (at full power) in a row after that you are doing ice flares which are pathetic in damage i was doing some sr's and had a blm do 5 flares, 2 full power aka fire 3 flare convert swift cast flare then transpose flare blizard flare transpose flare. which the last 3 did 1/3rd the damage of 1 of the full power ones, while the monsters still died fast it would have been easier to just double flare fire 2 them.

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Correction, you can do 3 flares in a row. you can also do even more flares continously with correct timing and they wont all be ice flares(essentially infinite flaring). That transpose flare bliz flare you posted is representative of a BLM who's basically doing it wrong, or at least not coming near the full potential of that destructive powah!

Devs probably didn't. But you can't compensate in code for the human element to adapt to a situation. And it being chosen over other dps is purely situational.

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

Correction, you can do 3 flares in a row. you can also do even more flares continously with correct timing and they wont all be ice flares(essentially infinite flaring). That transpose flare bliz flare you posted is representative of a BLM who's basically doing it wrong, or at least not coming near the full potential of that destructive powah!

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yea i didn't know about potion flares till a couple posts later. since i never use potions myself it never crossed my mind.