ATMA is AWESOME, more Content like it please

Me and a few LS friends called out our chocobo companions and hit the fates together and we had a lot of fun doing so. I enjoyed the atma part.

I actually agree with the op. but at the same time as the majority I find the content a bit boring and random, I really liked the magian weapons from xi, especially when you had a dual wield job, you could get 2 completely different weapons from the same base weapon and had a good long term goal, but as we all know what worked in other past MMO's doesn't work right now, I played xi a few months ago and had to start from scratch because I lost my account, so while I missed the grind and remembered it as something fun, it wasn't the same this last time, actually I was bored mid way.

In the other hand the relic reborn quest was too easy, with the needed tombstones you could get your relic in one day with a static, so we need a balance, like for example the FATES, I really don't mind doing those at all, in fact it was a really smart idea to get us out from Mor Dhona and give us what a lot of us were asking, open world content and a chance to explore all the awesome details in every area, add to that the new ppls from PS4 getting help from veteran players to level up and see the game less lonely.

A good balance to the FATE part for the Zodiak weapons would be if the requirements to get the Atma could be doing all the FATES available in the zone, ok this would speed up the process, but they could always add more quests to balance the grind, it would be way better like this, because people like me that are mid core and cant play many hours as we want can focus on getting something done little by little, so everytime you log in you can go to a zone and try completing your missing FATES while you wait for Duty Finder or a Party to fill while queuing in party finder.

For NM's I would love having some solo fights likes the one we had in Beta, were several complained about the difficulty, you actually needed a good strat and good gear to have a chance beating the boss, I think it was a lvl 15 fight, you could actually feel the achievement, right now the only place you can feel that is in Coil and some extreme primals, wouldn't hurt having that in this quests.

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Originally Posted by Sarlazzar

all things aside, is this weapon u get at the end even after the myth books really valuable? i100 crap compared to coil's i110 and i115

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1: This isn't the final stage (see image below).
2: This costs 0 Soldiary tomes.
3: ALL current content can be completed with i90-95 weapons anyway.
4: Latest Famitsu says the end product will be i115 tied with high allagan:

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/g...1b356066b5.jpg

So yes, yes it is valuable.

There is only one problem with the Animus. The fates required are completely off the wall. I've been camping this fate for a while now because I have nothing better to do but any casual will never get this done. There's almost 0% chance you'll be in the right zone at the right time to get it.

But if they are nerfing the required fates (the rest of the book grind is okay) then it'll actually be attainable by casuals in 2~3 months time instead of getting 1 book in 1 month.

Well, I enjoyed. Though this was largely due to a large populace participating in the FATE grind right after the patch hit (unlike now where there's significantly less actively doing so); having to prioritise some over others in terms of accessibility and difficulty was somewhat fun, while having to manage your travel routes in order to reach the less accessible FATEs was fairly challenging (it was terrible until I realized I could TP to Mist for one hell of a shortcut). Not to mention I could keep my chocobo out for some quick exp (+ the challenge log) and build up on GC seals, an absolute necessity for those constantly sending retainers out on ventures at regular intervals.

The myth grind was... okay.

The FATEs required for the book reeeeaaaaally need to spawn more often. Some wouldn't spawn even after a certain bunch had at least 6 times.

I don't know why people defend the Atma system...it was honestly a lazy implementation of a grind. Basically take existing low level FATES, add the Atmas to the drop list with a low drop rate, and then give people basically the Animus weapon without the glowly particle effects and added stats. Really...this isn't something SE spent copious amounts of development hours implementing. And we can honestly expect better.

Now...before the people who prefer grinds and are defending Atma to the death fly off their rockers, understand this: I actually agree the game needed a longer term object and I'm not looking for a handout here. In fact, I think if more of the pro-Atma camp took a breath and actually tried to understand some of the more calmly worded opposition to the current system, I think they'd find that this isn't a fight between maintaining long term/grindy objectives vs. 'gimme free epicz'. In fact, I'd argue that many of the people who are against the current form of Atma aren't against grinds. No, what they're against are poorly implemented grinds.

Here are the current issues I see with the current Atma system:

1. Completion time can vary widely between players, even between players of equivalent skill/knowledge/dedication/etc. We've seen cases of people who've gotten their Atmas in under 10 hours of grinding, while others have days worth and do not have a full set. This is creating two extremes. There are some who are basically handed their weapon (what the grindy camp tends to hate mind you) while others are forced to toil on for a significantly longer period of time. While there are definitely many who fall around the average, I still feel this is worth saying: A well implemented grind should generally take a similar amount of devoted time for players of equal standing, and that simply isn't happening in the current system.

2. There's limited avenues to affect the duration of the grind through skillful play. Really, the only thing you can do is maximize how quickly you get around the map to the FATES, and there's not much to that. Let's look at the better implemented Animus portion. It is possible to increase the rate at which you gain mythology for the books through intelligent, skillful play. Learning how to speed run, being able to pull more and pull faster, and maximizing DPS are all valuable skills to develop in an MMO. Players who can do this are rewarded with the fact that the time to collect all the necessary myth will be shortened.

3. The current design is rather unforgiving for players with restricted game time. The fact is, the drop chance of the Atmas does not change, no matter how many times you do it. You could spend 3 hours in a night working on getting a single Atma, not get it, and still be no closer to your ultimate goal for the next time you log on. This is one I can speak to from experience. When 8 hours in a week to play games is a rare luxury, the thought of wasting any portion of that to making zero progress is a bit daunting. And no, I don't want the system made easier on my behalf so it only takes a couple of hours. In truth, I still like having a long term goal, even when I know (and accept) it will take me a lot longer than many to get there. I just want the benefit of knowing that what time I do spend is always moving me a little closer to that goal, even if only a little.

Those are my main issues with the current Atma system, not including the fact that I find low level FATES to be rather boring (but this is subjective). How would I fix it? Well, believe it or not, I do think it's possible to modify the system to make it more consistent and more satisfying all the while maintaining a long term grind. If keeping the FATES was necessary, then the key would be to have the Atmas drop after completing a set number of FATES. Just theoretically, let's say 100 FATES in a given zone for the respective Atma. I think most people would agree that 1200 FATES would still be a grind. However, using a set requirement like this, we eliminate the wide variation of completion times. Hell, depending on the number of FATES required, SE could in theory make a longer grind compared to the average completion time for the current Atma system. Additionally, we'd end up in a situation where people would be able to feel more satisfaction out of working on the Atma weapon in smaller increments. Even if someone only did a few FATES in a night, those would still be a few FATES closer to completion.

I end my rant with this. To the people who like the current system and say they got a sense of satisfaction from it: Do you really think you'd feel less accomplished in a system that takes a similar amount of time/dedication to complete but also eliminates the risk of some people being royally screwed over by sheer luck? We can quite literally maintain all the aspects people like of the current system (the grind, the long term goals, FATES and GC seal acquisition, chocobo leveling, etc) and still make the system less dependent on RNG...and therefore a more balanced experience for everyone that wants to try it out...

@jerichai

A very we'll presented and thought out post (liked it btw)
I have 4 atmas after over 100 hours of grinding,with your system I'd probly have them all by now

I 100% support your proposal, at least then you can gauge how close you are each time

Finally a post I can like about atmas.

i also fully support leaving atma as is. i was one of the people who wanted something to grind on, and i got it. i also understand that if they removed atmas from fates or made them too easy, then nobody would do fates again, an then they would just add something else to fates again to get more people to them. so just let it be, an be glad that the next content introduced wont require so much fates hopefully. an if you want skill based fights for weapons, go after one of the many skill based fights that give weapons. the option that they all ask for is already in game, they just refuse to go after it. and they want to punish the rest of us who are happy, just because they cant have a max lv weapon now. i also understand that a major problem with this game, was people running out of stuff to do 1-2 months into each patch, an many many people would unsub an take long breaks till the next major patch.... hmmm i wonder why SE really introduced all this grinding in 2.2. Honestly though, if you cant be bothered to go after a animus, or a upgraded weathered weapon, or a leviathin weapon, or a high allagahn weapon, or hell even t5 weapon, then you seriously dont need a weapon higher than zenith/ex-primal, as you are not doing any content needing a high lv weapon. you dont need ilv100+ to spam brayflox.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

are they indifferent? are you saying all the players on the game who complain and hate the atma quest are lying to everyone? when both the forums and the population in game match it says something then you have SE themselves saying barely anyone has it and is taking feedback on the quest hmm seems like something to me.

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1 the forums are a small percentage of the actual playerbase and 2 how the hell you know what everyone in population thinks of the atma quest. I started it got 4 atmas and then started else the quest or the grind doesn't bother me.

Sincerely a so called causal player even though I play more then a so called hardcore player.

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Originally Posted by Macka

1 the forums are a small percentage of the actual playerbase and 2 how the hell you know what everyone in population thinks of the atma quest. I started it got 4 atmas and then started else the quest or the grind doesn't bother me.

Sincerely a so called causal player even though I play more then a so called hardcore player.

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lol seems you don't know how to read, already gave my explanation this is a pointless arguement when the only thing people can say against me is you didn't poll everyone. lol

FFXI had many grinds like the Atma. Mechanics like that are the reason I played and enjoyed it for so long. If FFXIV:ARR were to adopt more grind-like mechanics, it would increase the longevity of content by boatloads.

While I'm not the biggest fan of FATEs, I did thoroughly enjoy gathering my 12 Atma. While some people complain about the grind, I think mechanics like this are 100% healthy for the game overall. I sincerely hope the devs weren't deterred from putting more grind mechnics into the game based on the forum response.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

lol seems you don't know how to read, already gave my explanation this is a pointless arguement when the only thing people can say against me is you didn't poll everyone. lol

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All i gathered from you and others who claim to speak for the majority are your pitiful beliefs that since i believe in something, the majority must believe the same as me. Anyone who dares to disagree is wrong and should be ridiculed

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This game seriously lacks enough grindy content

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Atma is no content. Contents are Fate, dungeons, leves, Coil, CT, etc.

You don't need to be on the Atma quest to do fates (though it is no wonder you don't grind them when you don't need xp/atma because it is plain boring). If you liked FATE (to be honest I've never meet someone who actually liked doing FATEs) you could grind them even before 2.2.

I can't even understand how people nowadays can consider something which make you grind content you were already farming to be new content (let alone interesting content...). I just cannot understand.

As far as I can tell alot don't mind grinding,its the fact that atmas are only obtainable from fates 95% of which you need to sync down for
It's boring/tedious/repetitive/unenjoyable content to a lot of people..
If it were a fixed target as stated above people would just get through it, as it stands with no set target people struggle to stay motivated

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Originally Posted by Awdogsgo2heaven

I There's no point in having 'Legendary' weapons if everyone can get them so easily. So I completely support you SE for adding this grindy content and hoping for more. Don't let the loud minority drown out the fact most people love it. Raiding fates reminded me of my FF11 days! Hope to see more content like it. I want to always feel the best gear I can get is always a distant goal, and not just 1 day away.

~ Koops

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Ah one these FF11 ppl, always funny. "mind numbing depression inducing grind is a positive and good thing, I will spend money happily to roll rng dice, I am awesome. I hope every aspect of future ff14 progression involves whacking my head against a wall, I played ff11, im good at it =D"

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

Ah one these FF11 ppl, always funny. "mind numbing depression inducing grind is a positive and good thing, I will spend money happily to roll rng dice, I am awesome. I hope every aspect of future ff14 progression involves whacking my head against a wall, I played ff11, im good at it =D"

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Even the legendary grind was more interesting in FF11, because you actually had to grind true meaningful content (dynamis was no cakewalk if unprepared at level 75). Plus the weapons were worth going through the trouble.

Which is not even the case in FFXIV.

I bet FF11 was indeed a good game, but I quiver away from it a little more with fear when I see people citing FF11 and saying atma is well designed in the same sentence.

because legendary weapons obtained through zerging amd luck is interesting

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Originally Posted by Jerichai

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I appreciate the well thought out post. And I can understand your points and where you are coming from.

Even so I have to respectfully disagree on a few things. I don't think the zodiac quest chain was lazy/bad design. It was well thought out design based on the feedback that the player base had been given them. (or at least I can follow their thought processes). It was a design that ultimately was badly received by many though.

Two major feedback points the playerbase was giving SE was 1) relic’s are too easy to get and 2) there is a fundamental lack of open world content.

So they wanted to give relics a bit of a grind. There are two ways to add grind, RNG and token. You have pointed out the con in RNG systems which is a very valid con. But there are cons in token systems as well. I personally hate token grinds. Like I honestly HATE them.

So I guess I’ll just rant on why I hate token grinds. Firstly they make the game feel very monotonous. There is no anticipation no excitement no “did it drop?” moments. It’s just “God I have to do this 22 more times. Ugh.” Which leads to my second gripe. It makes the grind too transparent. When I’m not counting the grind in tokens I don’t notice it as much. I’m running dungeons or doing whatever gameplay without thinking about the long term time investment. I’m just playing. But with a token system the grand total is etched in Neon lights. It can make a task look far more daunting at the start which can be discouraging. You want me to do how many of these? Screw it.

So when it comes to token systems or RNG. I feel it’s very much a ymmv thing on which you prefer. There isn’t one is inherently better than the other. So imho the better design choice is to use a little of both. Which is exactly what we got in the zodiac weapon chain.

So back to the player feedback. The other major feedback point was lack of open world content. Well what is open world content. The game has established it as Fates/Leves/Mobs. And so that’s what the bulk of the zodiac quest entails. I know not everyone likes fates. But the game released with Fates being the core method of open world content. So it’s only logical that this would be the meat of the zodiac grind.

And so we have the Atma grind which everyone seems to hate. They thought ok the core component of our open world is fates. Let’s have the first stage be about fates. But we don’t want to overpopulate a zone so let’s spread it out and have them need to do fates in multiple zones. They then had to decide will this be the token grind or the RNG grind. Really they could have gone either way on this I guess but they went RNG. And I don’t see it as being that terrible of a choice.

To make an RNG grind take a significant length of time you need to have a low drop rate. But low drop rates also increase the con of RNG the large variability. To counter that some you have the collection of multiple items like say 12 in this case. This will shrink the standard deviation some lowering the variability. Now ultimate it didn’t lower it enough to prevent the rage on these forums apparently. I’d have to run the math to understand why but I haven’t done that nor will likely too as I just don’t have that much interest.

If they went the token route say do 100 fates per zone, then they’d want to do a more RNG route with the books. Maybe have them as rare drops in the new dungeons oh wait that’s not open world though. Well who knows but some kind of RNG drop either in dungeons or in the open world to collect. They likely made the choice they did as they wanted a nice sink for myth tomes with the books as phil tomes became pretty useless towards the end of its life span. And they wanted to counteract that happening with myth tomes some.

Sorry for the long winded post that many probably won’t read lol. But I honestly think SE did put a decent amount of thought into their Zodiac quest chain and the design had solid logic. It’s just hindsight is 20/20. Some tweaks may have made the design of the quests better received which is no doubt what they are discussing over right now as they delay the Novus update.

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Originally Posted by Suellen

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I think they will solve a lot of problems if they took the time to add FATEs for lvl 50+.The grinding will still be there, with the difficulty of the FATEs increased a lot. THEN, those who still complain 'should' really be in the minority.

Is it hard to do? Not really.

FATE type 1: Huge mob with huge HP and special moves + lots of aggro nearby. E.g. Chimera
FATE type 2: Lots of smaller mobs with lesser, but still effective moves + a Hugh aggro mob nearby (with nothing but huge hp to make sure that it can't be killed easily and will be there for the duration of the FATE).

Add a combination of the 2, times it by 3 or 4. Fill in the rest of the slots (out of the 12 atma areas) with your more basic FATEs.

Admittedly, they would probably want to add a cap on the RNG, in form of how many hours farmed per FATE. This way, "some but not absolute" light can be seen by the player, knowing that he's going somewhere:

1. Every FATE still has the RNG for drop.
2. On top of that another RNG for the hours afterwchich a player will definitely get the drop. Set the RNG to go between say 8-10 hours. This will induce a certain level of progress while retaining the RNG factor.

What we need to keep in mind is that grinding low level FATEs is still grinding, contrary to what some might believe. HOWEVER, it's not the optimal form of grinding for players with ilvl well beyond 80s.

As for those who loved XI, so did I; but for those who claimed that XI had the same kind of grind, I have to disagree (and not respectfully to that end). I do not recall any grind that I have been in where there isn't a shred of danger, HNM, Sky, Dyanmis, even exp. I didn't have to kill flies in valkurm dunes 100 times for relics.

For the open world content that you mentioned, Suellen, I think there's a fundamental difference in the definition of 'open world content'. Is "kill 3 chickens and give me their eggs" sort of leves or FATE open world? The answer is a resounding YES.

I am however, of the opinion that those who actually used the term 'open world content' has something quite different in their minds. It's not our business as players to understand what other players want, but IT DEFINITELY is what the developer's responsibility, to figure what the majority and minority players want, define those wants clearly with a solid basis of who those majority/minority players are.

So far, I don't see much of that. Hopefully soon, I will.

For the last part, going for other weapon routes are not feasible for some without groups, me for instance lost an entire FC and had to join another. This is why the zodiac weapons are so important as it's the only weapon that one can solo for, while those with groups can go for the other 3 routes, levi ex, weathered and high allagan.

Do ppl with no group need anything more than what they have for dungeon grinds? No, but that's not the point. The point is to keep as many players interested in the game for as long as possible. If that's what they want, then find a way. If they are the minority, then try satisfy them after the majority. That, however, is the Dev's job. Harsh, but true.

all these posters screaming for the atma to get nerfed just sound like a bunch of spoiled little children who are angry someone has nicer toys than them

didnt you parents teach you that jealousy isnt a pretty emotion?