Thief/Ninja looks to be Inbound

Except for the part where it's already been proven.

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Originally Posted by ziddyt

Except for the part where it's already been proven.

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Where?

If you can prove that there is a way to make 1 class into two of the type job role without basically making a new class, you will win.

SCH and SMN don't play the same because they don't do the same thing. One heals. One damages.

I think the burden of proof is on you to prove that you know more than the devs do, enough to dictate what they can and cannot do with their game.
Yoshi specifically said they could easily make class skills perform differently for different jobs, giving Dark Knight as an example if it were to branch off of Gladiator (which he also denied would definitely be the case).
Even without that, how can you be so dense that you realize they can make a job utilize entirely different skills from one another without acknowledging they don't have to be different roles. If square can make Scholar a job that focuses mainly on its job abilities, why can't they give Ranger job skills and traits that allow them to focus on those rather than Archer skills. Who's to say that Ranger skills couldn't completely replace half or more of the base Archer rotation?

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Originally Posted by ziddyt

Regardless of what a SCH's role is, it is irrelevant to the fact that two jobs based on the same class can have vastly different skills.

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Except that it's entirely appropriate to bring up role when discussing second jobs for a class. If SCH was a DPS role, it would play virtually identically to SMN because the two share so many abilities. The only reason that SCH plays differently than SMN is because SCH is a healer and SMN is a DPS. The only major difference in their personal attack options is that SMN has Fester (if SCH were DPS, it would actually have a DPS pet, so the role difference plays an even bigger part if you bring up pets), and the reason that SCH is so different is because it has more than just 1 heal, by necessity.

The same would be true of any new DPS job built off of ARC (or, in fact, any second job that has an identical role to an existing job for its class such as another tank for GLA or healer for CNJ) because jobs only bring 5 abilities whereas classes bring 17-18 abilities and 11 traits. Any theoretical second job for ARC would play so similarly to a BRD that it's pointless to create it, not to mention the balance concerns that would be required (BRD DPS would have to be decreased so that the new job isn't useless which means increasing their support capabilities which means adjusting content and composition to allow for the greater impact of "support").

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Originally Posted by ziddyt

If square can make Scholar a job that focuses mainly on its job abilities, why can't they give Ranger job skills and traits that allow them to focus on those rather than Archer skills. Who's to say that Ranger skills couldn't completely replace half or more of the base Archer rotation?

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Those are completely separate concerns. SCH abilities are not replacing existing capacities that ACN has; they're providing the missing functionality that ACN requires to become a healer. For RNG to be justifiably built off of ARC, it would need 5 abilities that completely alter how BRD (re: ARC) does DPS without making it completely broken, which is going to be hard as hell given that the BRD rotation is a whopping 4 abilities with a crapton of off-GCDs.

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Originally Posted by ziddyt

I think the burden of proof is on you to prove that you know more than the devs do, enough to dictate what they can and cannot do with their game.

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I've never said that they couldn't. It's inefficient to do such a thing when you can just make an entirely new class.

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Yoshi specifically said they could easily make class skills perform differently for different jobs, giving Dark Knight as an example if it were to branch off of Gladiator (which he also denied would definitely be the case).
Even without that, how can you be so dense that you realize they can make a job utilize entirely different skills from one another without acknowledging they don't have to be different roles. If square can make Scholar a job that focuses mainly on its job abilities, why can't they give Ranger job skills and traits that allow them to focus on those rather than Archer skills. Who's to say that Ranger skills couldn't completely replace half or more of the base Archer rotation?

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The example for Dark Knight was that they could remove the emnity modifiers to change Gladiator from a tank role into a DPS role. See that there is a role change there. Look at what you would need to do to make Ranger out of Bard.
What is a class? What you play all the time.
What is a Job? A specialization of the class to further gameplay change

More specifically, what is a Bard without Songs? An Archer. So to create Ranger you'll be playing Bard without the Songs..which is comically Ranger.
So they change base Archer "rotation". Add base new skills, which means more coding, more animation creation on top of different weapon creation (or same like SCH/SMN). Why do all this work for an already existing class when you can make something else from the ground up? It seems foolish to expend all this time and already created class, risk ruining something about that class rather than create a new one.

I say they should add like fifteen new dps jobs to suit every flavor from every ff game ever. Then all of them can sit in queue for DF while the tanks keep smiling.

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Originally Posted by Pizzaparty7

I say they should add like fifteen new dps jobs to suit every flavor from every ff game ever. Then all of them can sit in queue for DF while the tanks keep smiling.

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Not likely to happen given that SE would also want the total number of classes to be balanced, not only in a general combat sense, but also balanced when it comes to the tank, healer, dps trinity.

How I think the jobs will roll out

Class musketeer
Jobs: Ranger/Corsair

Class: assassin,scout,rogue?
Jobs: Thief/Ninja

So far none of the classes are names FF is incredibly familiar with like the classic WHM BLM etc line up so I don't think it would make much sense to have thief or non be a class and the other be a job... Either way I just hope NIN isn't a tank -.-

Whichever role ninja fills, half of the community is going to be severely annoyed. A new tank would go a very long way in this game. If there was one role that would be great as FOTM for the game as a whole, it would be Tank. Ninja was very popular in FFXI as a tank. My vote is for Thief base with Ninja(tank)/Assassin(DPS) jobs. IMO it makes the most sense.

But I won't complain about it either way. I'd still be excited about a new class/job.

Fixed for you, np. :)

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Originally Posted by Panzer

During the two major cutscenes with Thancred and Yugiri they mention that the two "share similar styles". At one point, Thancred even switches his style to something similar to her own. Thancred was raised in the "mysterious underground" (read: mysterious underground) guild in Limsa and Yugiri is very clearly going with them to teach them her ways while learning theirs before *as she states* offering her services of training the people of Eorzea. It seems pretty clear to me the path they're taking, the only question is how the layout of the class>job/job will be. Personally, I think they'll have a base class that leads to THF/NIN but this is wildly speculatory and only because Thancred and Yugiri seem to make easy and effective leads for the two respective jobs.

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Originally Posted by Kirinichibon

Whichever role ninja fills, half of the community is going to be severely annoyed. A new tank would go a very long way in this game. If there was one role that would be great as FOTM for the game as a whole, it would be Tank. Ninja was very popular in FFXI as a tank. My vote is for Thief base with Ninja(tank)/Assassin(DPS) jobs. IMO it makes the most sense.

But I won't complain about it either way. I'd still be excited about a new class/job.

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Ninja tank? *shivers* , u really want a flood of wannabe ninjas tanking for u? ....if ninja is becoming a tank .....it wont be pretty :rolleyes: , because the warrior BIG AXE im dps not tank !!! ppl wasnt enough :P

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Originally Posted by Kirinichibon

Whichever role ninja fills, half of the community is going to be severely annoyed. A new tank would go a very long way in this game. If there was one role that would be great as FOTM for the game as a whole, it would be Tank. Ninja was very popular in FFXI as a tank. My vote is for Thief base with Ninja(tank)/Assassin(DPS) jobs. IMO it makes the most sense.

But I won't complain about it either way. I'd still be excited about a new class/job.

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Except Yoshida said Ninja won't be tank. Unless he's a liar.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

Ninja tank? *shivers* , u really want a flood of wannabe ninjas tanking for u? ....if ninja is becoming a tank .....it wont be pretty :rolleyes: , because the warrior BIG AXE im dps not tank !!! ppl wasnt enough :P

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I haven't come across WARs since 2.1 that wanted to DPS just to DPS. If Yoshida really did say that he didn't intend for NIN to tank (which IIRC was specifically referring to blink tanking - not the entire concept of NIN as a tank), as long as they hold enmity and mitigate well, I don't really care. The game does not need another DPS job right now.

If you have your heart set on some class to fit your vision of some role that you think it was always intended to do, be prepared for disappointment.

If I were to bet on what role NIN was to fill in 2.3 if implemented, with the current itemization and gameplay, it would be as DPS - likely STR based, possibly DEX. But I do miss XI ninjas and hold on to some hope that a nimble tank is implemented instead.

I'm sure they could just make Dancer or something for an "evasion" tank. Kitru made a long post about why Ninja historically in real life wouldn't make sense as a tank. The short version, "their entire mission was to not be seen, much less take the attention of anyone". So based on that, Ninja as a tank is illogical but FFXI, being imbalanced as it was, took that and turned it on its head. Hopefully Yoshida would be foolish enough to let that happen (which probably can't happen without emnity modifiers anyway).

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Originally Posted by Exstal

I'm sure they could just make Dancer or something for an "evasion" tank. Kitru made a long post about why Ninja historically in real life wouldn't make sense as a tank. The short version, "their entire mission was to not be seen, much less take the attention of anyone". So based on that, Ninja as a tank is illogical but FFXI, being imbalanced as it was, took that and turned it on its head. Hopefully Yoshida would be foolish enough to let that happen (which probably can't happen without emnity modifiers anyway).

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Technically in FFXI it wasn't supposed to be a tank either according to SE. They just gave it a tool that contradicted that and kept building on it instead of changing.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

If you can prove that there is a way to make 1 class into two of the type job role without basically making a new class, you will win.

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Let's say Pug get acces to Dancer Job, DPS role.
Dancer would get dancing skills to help party through new and unique debuffs (life leech ?) making it more of an assist DPS than a full DPS.

And remember that new classes and jobs will most likely come with a new Lvl cap, thus new skils...

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Originally Posted by juntaru

Let's say Pug get acces to Dancer Job, DPS role.
Dancer would get dancing skills to help party through new and unique debuffs (life leech ?) making it more of an assist DPS than a full DPS.

And remember that new classes and jobs will most likely come with a new Lvl cap, thus new skils...

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Let's look at how Puglist functions.

Greased Lightning Stacks
Progression based skills (chain)
Directional based

What does Monk bring? Gap Closer, Damage increase stance, Damage skill, Damage skill that can remove debuff, aoe

Fundamentally, the Dancer would play just like Puglist unless you're going to rework how Greased Lightning Works and what skills chain into what.
Of course, with level cap they *might* be able to make 1 X base class => 2 X job instead of 1 base class => X job / Y job

My assumption is at 55 there will be 10 job skills along with 2~3 class skills and 1~2 new traits. Within 10 skills, it should be enough to differentiate 2 same function jobs from each other (I'm hoping). Then it gets into the area of, "which classes/jobs should be implemented first?". That's a whole different ball game.

If THF/NIN, I can only imagine it'd actually be a support-type DPS role.

Consisting of…

Status effects galore. Poison, Sleep, Paralysis, Confuse, Bind, Heavy, Slow, etc.
Along with elemental-based ranged attacks. (see: Fire/Water/Thunder/Wind shuriken ability)

I'd say you have a better chance of seeing Samurai as a new Tank. Higher Dodge and Parry rates, along with whatever new moves are included in the Job. You would end up with 3 balanced flavors of Tank. PLD Defensive, WAR Huge HP, and SAM Avoidance.

spoilers*

corsair/gunner dps: theres already a plack for musketeer in the coral tower of limsa lominsa. downstairs, they train in guns. merlwyb uses dual pistols. for your FC crest, you can already choose the dual pistol icon.

chemist: makes sense for the gunner's 2nd path- healer. the brother in the thurmaturge questline heals you with strange abilities, before he gets possessed. he's a chemist as he has no aetheric potential. also in uldah, is the alchemist guild.

puppetmaster: uldah has alot of mammets/puppets. halitali in uldah territory has alot of mammets. the pugilist guild is in uldah.

ranger: gridania's troops are rangers and lancers. we are just given bard, instead. also, one of king mog's moogles is a ranger. i think the U tribe in forgotten springs are also rangers.

thf/ninja: obviously from main story, it's basically a confirmation that their guild will be in limsa lominsa in a shadow/secret guild. hopefully, a thf can steal genji equipment from gilgamesh in future.

samurai: like someone said, during the doma refugee story, someone tells you to pick up scales. this hints at samurai, but no word or showing of a great katana at all.

red mage: alot of mobs use enaero, enstone, enthunder, etc. the code for the abilities are ingame. they are classically rdm abilities from ffxi. but no word or showing for rapiers.

far-out speculation:
maybe the civilzations that have fallen all hint at other classes.
dark knight: amdapori in Amdapor Keep seemed to have opened the voidgate, which the lambs of dalamud continue to do. maybe they will be involved in unlocking dark knight. the demons in amdapor keep and haukke manor use scythes, which can possibly be used by dark knight and
necromancer: sil'dih, uldahs sister city, resorted to raising their dead soldiers to try and win a war, which became their undoing. necromancer was a class in the iOS game Final Fantasy Airborne Brigade
geomancer: amdapor city (not keep) was supposed to be full of white mages. but the city is like an ecosystem gone awry, while the central tower is full of voidgate monsters. also the thousand maws of totorak, which used to be a jail in south shroud, is filled with "eco-monsters".

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Originally Posted by hot_gilgamess

spoilers*

red mage: alot of mobs use enaero, enstone, enthunder, etc. the code for the abilities are ingame. they are classically rdm abilities from ffxi. but no word or showing for rapiers.

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I've assumed that RDM would branch off from a fencer type of class, likely fencer>redmage/runefencer

And you forgot Dancer. There's even a pretty strong hint in the current quests that it wills tart in Uldah.

too much speculation going on about different classes, lol.
But i really think next update will have at least one new class, gunner class probably first as it was confirmed a little ways back

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Originally Posted by Maero

too much speculation going on about different classes, lol.
But i really think next update will have at least one new class, gunner class probably first as it was confirmed a little ways back

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Thief/Ninja will most likely be the first class and job introduced. No other class received this much in game attention ever. And awhile back it was a, "scout" class that was talked about. If you completed the main story, you would of seen that thief was not only just hinted, it was blatantly confirmed. Yuguri even said herself that she will start training Eorzians right away in the art of her combat. Right away, to me, says an update coming sooner than we think.

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Originally Posted by Dovah

Thief/Ninja will most likely be the first class and job introduced. No other class received this much in game attention ever. And awhile back it was a, "scout" class that was talked about. If you completed the main story, you would of seen that thief was not only just hinted, it was blatantly confirmed. Yuguri even said herself that she will start training Eorzians right away in the art of her combat. Right away, to me, says an update coming sooner than we think.

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New classes are already confirmed to only come with a new expansion which has been also confirmed for 2015. It'll still be awhile, but hoping they could push it into a christmas/new years update. Alot of MMOs always have big things during christmas season. Let's just hope 3.0 is one of them.

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Originally Posted by SamaelVantas

New classes are already confirmed to only come with a new expansion which has been also confirmed for 2015. It'll still be awhile, but hoping they could push it into a christmas/new years update. Alot of MMOs always have big things during christmas season. Let's just hope 3.0 is one of them.

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Have link for this? Tried searching but didn't find it. Thanks in advance.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Have link for this? Tried searching but didn't find it. Thanks in advance.

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I believe it's mentioned with the other future patches. Though it's somewhat of a speculation there have been talk about 3.0 coming out sometime next year. I'd try digging, but translating (google translate) and finding the right interview would drain me. lol Also believe Mr.Happy talks about 3.0, but I don't take his word to much to heart.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Have link for this? Tried searching but didn't find it. Thanks in advance.

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Yoshi has actually said that they plan on adding classes/jobs as they see fit, whether it be through a patch or an expansion, rather than attaching them only to expansions. I'd be curious to see where exactly you've seen him contradict this.

He has never said classes and jobs would only come with expansions. What he said was they would be added in regular patches.

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Originally Posted by Dovah

He has never said classes and jobs would only come with expansions. What he said was they would be added in regular patches.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Yoshi has actually said that they plan on adding classes/jobs as they see fit, whether it be through a patch or an expansion, rather than attaching them only to expansions. I'd be curious to see where exactly you've seen him contradict this.

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There was a recent interview (4th question) that implied, at this point in time, it was more likely that it would happen in an expansion. As with everything in this community that meant that this was the gospel truth, until proven otherwise.

I take it back, it was more explicitly stated than I remembered:

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Nova Crystallis: With Final Fantasy XI Square Enix has released a lot of full expansion packs and smaller add-ons and now with FFXIV you guys are releasing a lot of new content as free updates. How do you decide when you make that split – when do you start charging for content and how much content is going to be in what you charge for versus what will arrive in free updates?

ARR4Yoshida: In regards to what defines an expansion – if you can imagine the amount of content and material that was released with the relaunch (2.0) – that would be about the size of what we would consider an expansion. There will be a lot of new dungeons added, a lot of deep story – something that adds value to the game’s own staff roll. There are going to be a lot of new fields that will open up as well as the introduction of new classes and jobs. So you can expect it to be pretty big for it to be considered an expansion.

We’re aiming for it to be when people see the information of the expansion coming, they will see it and say “Oh yeah, this is worth paying for.”

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Originally Posted by L-D-Omlette

There was a recent interview (can't find at the moment, will update if I do) that implied, at this point in time, it was more likely that it would happen in an expansion. As with everything in this community that meant that this was the gospel truth, until proven otherwise.

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Implication is significantly different than an outright statement. Even if the interview was more recent, I'd be less likely to trust it if it's not an explicit statement since that's what he used to say we'd be getting them whenever, as opposed to simply expansions.

I'm just Looking forward to Red Mage and Beast Master ooo and Blue Mage.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Implication is significantly different than an outright statement. Even if the interview was more recent, I'd be less likely to trust it if it's not an explicit statement since that's what he used to say we'd be getting them whenever, as opposed to simply expansions.

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There is, of course, this quote from Yoshi too, http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...s-Release-Plan.

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Originally Posted by Deathscythe343

There is, of course, this quote from Yoshi too, http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...s-Release-Plan.

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Err that was the one I mentioned, but I didn't exactly meant he said outright they would only come with an expansion. Should've made that clearer. lol
Regardless it's nice either way if they release new classes or not before 3.0. I just want them to do it right.

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Originally Posted by Blackcanary

I'm just Looking forward to Red Mage and Beast Master ooo and Blue Mage.

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i really would like to see how rdm would play out in 14. i played rdm back in the day in 11 and well everyone knew rdm was king for a long time. but it wont play the same in xiv. i would be happy and scared at the same time lol

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Originally Posted by SamaelVantas

Regardless it's nice either way if they release new classes or not before 3.0. I just want them to do it right.

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I want it done right too, however, I would be surprised to see this be not available until an expansion given what is said in the main story quests.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

How would Ranger even work? How would it not play exactly like Bard?

Oh, that's right. It will play exactly like Bard and be stronger because songs are actually weaker in damage dealing (as they do no damage).

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Tsk tsk... I'm sorry you haven't played with any good bards. No damage?!? In movement intensive fights such as primals, no other dps can hope to keep up with a good bard. It's the only job that when done correctly, can keep putting out damage while running from plumes, landslide, bombs, etc.

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Originally Posted by DexteraDomini

Tsk tsk... I'm sorry you haven't played with any good bards. No damage?!? In movement intensive fights such as primals, no other dps can hope to keep up with a good bard. It's the only job that when done correctly, can keep putting out damage while running from plumes, landslide, bombs, etc.

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You misread what I wrote. Ranger will have, or should have, damage dealing job skills. What do songs do? They don't deal damage, they are support. So by that logic, Ranger would do more damage than Bard because they'd play exactly the same.

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Originally Posted by SamaelVantas

New classes are already confirmed to only come with a new expansion which has been also confirmed for 2015. It'll still be awhile, but hoping they could push it into a christmas/new years update. Alot of MMOs always have big things during christmas season. Let's just hope 3.0 is one of them.

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Just the opposite actually, earlier in this thread someone posted a link to a Q&A where Yoshi specifically said new classes would come with patches, not expansions, because most legacy players already have all classes at 50 they want to get new classes out sooner and new areas will be in expansions.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

You misread what I wrote. Ranger will have, or should have, damage dealing job skills. What do songs do? They don't deal damage, they are support. So by that logic, Ranger would do more damage than Bard because they'd play exactly the same.

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I see what you mean but first, 1/3 of bards song set decreases magical resistance, encreasing the dps of any casters, 2nd, you couldn't really create a class that does more dps than bard without it being OP as bard is already the best dps in many situations.