Common Courtesy with End-game Raids/Dungeons

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

True, there is that.

Seriously though, for all the people against the OP here, go make a party finder that says "I know absolutely nothing about this fight and would like to be carried" and see how many join. Take it a step further and make pf saying "learning party, btw I don't know anything at all myself about this, haven't watched videos or anything, cause I shouldn't have to", and see how many join.

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Or, or... you could put 'training pt' and watch it fill up fairly quickly. Gotta love how people equate not watching a video to 'getting carried'. Pfft, you're wearing an i70 headpiece, tell me why I should carry you when my main is in full i90? Why are you even talking about 'carrying' when you're a scrub in scrub gear? Can't answer that?
Protip: If you're going to be elitist you better have all the best gear.

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Originally Posted by Amyas

Or, or... you could put 'training pt' and watch it fill up fairly quickly. Gotta love how people equate not watching a video to 'getting carried'. Pfft, you're wearing an i70 headpiece, tell me why I should carry you when my main is in full i90? Why are you even talking about 'carrying' when you're a scrub in scrub gear? Can't answer that?
Protip: If you're going to be elitist you better have all the best gear.

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When you make this training PT are you looking for people who don't know anything about the fight(have done no research)? Do you yourself know the fight and don't mind teaching them about it?

What blows my mind are the people advocating that they should be able to play the way they want and have fun doing it. So instead of looking up the mechanics of the fight before starting they would rather have someone who has done that and have them explain everything (which is the same thing as doing the research yourself except you are having someone else do it for you).... This is just being lazy, plain and simple. Tell me I am wrong on this.

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Originally Posted by Amyas

Or, or... you could put 'training pt' and watch it fill up fairly quickly. Gotta love how people equate not watching a video to 'getting carried'.

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Yeah it's not really carryable Primal extremes and harder content. It would be called more of being a dead weight.

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Originally Posted by Tazo

So instead of looking up the mechanics of the fight before starting they would rather have someone who has done that and have them explain everything (which is the same thing as doing the research yourself except you are having someone else do it for you).... This is just being lazy, plain and simple. Tell me I am wrong on this.

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You are wrong. Those we are talking about (including myself by and large) also don't want to be told before the fight by someone else. Not sure why this is such a hard concept for you. If you want to go in blind, you don't want to stop and be explained the fight either.

But if you do run across someone who doesn't know the fight but does want some advice and asks, give it to them, it only takes a minute even for complicate fights. And then dive in.

If for whatever reason you are unwilling to do so, please just leave. Save yourself and them the frustration. Better yet, don't join the party in the first place, and avoid DF since you cannot guarantee who you will get. (And no amount of complaining on forums is going to change this)

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Originally Posted by Tazo

Every learning party I have been in, a person who has not looked up the fight at all is VERY open to have someone else chew it for them and feed it to them.

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Why have you ever been in a learning party if you don't approve of them?

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Originally Posted by Tazo

It takes a lot more than 1min to explain any of the Primals ex, Ultima HM, Coil. This is endgame/raid as the title of the thread.

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It really doesn't. You can easily explain Ultima in about 1 minute. If you can't, you probably are over-complicating it for someone who is new anyway and they won't remember anything important. The extremes, also fairly easy to explain, though harder to do (though once you get them down they are in some ways easier than HM).

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Originally Posted by Tazo

You don't want shit explained to you and you don't want to research anything for yourself? Do the content the first week or so when it is released.

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Not everyone started the game at the same time, or plays at the same pace, and they shouldn't be forced out of experiencing content because you think "it is lazy".

They should be able to learn in their preferred method, at their preferred pace, so long as others are also willing. (And there always are despite what your own personal experience may be).

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Originally Posted by Tazo

You can phrase it anyway you want, but it is pure laziness, plain and simple.

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It is pure laziness, to spend hours learning content through trial and error with other people who also want to learn it the same way? Really? I don't understand this mentality. In my mind it is pure laziness to have someone else hand feed you the solution to a puzzle so you don't have to spend time on it yourself. As I said. If you don't want to be part of such a group. Do Not Join. Problem solved. There is clearly a huge mindset difference. Honestly. They don't want you anymore then you want them. Different play styles. Neither should be forcing themselves on the other.

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Originally Posted by Tazo

Edit: wait...do you even have a lv50 character and do you do endgame? If not..wtf are you even doing in this thread?

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I have more than one character at endgame. I choose to leave the one I never touch as my face on the forum because it was my first not because it is my "main". Not that it is relevant.

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Originally Posted by Rivienne

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I don't know a single person that would stay in a party where there is someone that refuses to learn the fight(have it explained) and just wants to learn from mistakes. This is beyond ridiculous. Personally I have never meet anyone who says they don't want the fight explained and/or researched themselves. Every learning party I have been in, a person who has not looked up the fight at all is VERY open to have someone else chew it for them and feed it to them.

It takes a lot more than 1min to explain any of the Primals ex, Ultima HM, Coil. This is endgame/raid as the title of the thread.

You don't want shit explained to you and you don't want to research anything for yourself? Do the content the first week or so when it is released.

You can phrase it anyway you want, but it is pure laziness, plain and simple.

Edit: wait...do you even have a lv50 character and do you do endgame? If not..wtf are you even doing in this thread?

This is a game people! In the real world no one cares how good you are! People play to have fun! I don't know when or why this game has gotten to the point where people think this is some sort of measure of a person....it is not! You are not going to be rewarded for being good or great for that matter and frankly no one really cares how great you are, so please just have fun!

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Originally Posted by Tazo

You don't want shit explained to you and you don't want to research anything for yourself? Do the content the first week or so when it is released.

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laziest excuse ever for not bothering to try instead of being fed by other people.

"Oh I'll wait a week so others do the hard work and I can figured it ez mode and faceroll it after 2 weeks".

Who's lazy, the one who wants to try or the one who's lazy enough to let people explain everything so there is nothing left but dance practice ?

I like to be surprised by what im playing. I don't play the game to help you beat it faster, i play it to enjoy it.

If you are too impatient to communicate and explain the dungeon to players, here's what you can do:

1) PF finder
2) Absurdly high ilvl requirement
3) State it in the comments


Otherwise, jump off the high horse.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

True, there is that.

Seriously though, for all the people against the OP here, go make a party finder that says "I know absolutely nothing about this fight and would like to be carried" and see how many join. Take it a step further and make pf saying "learning party, btw I don't know anything at all myself about this, haven't watched videos or anything, cause I shouldn't have to", and see how many join.

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You realize that watching content before actually doing it is being carried. You're being baby fed all the answers before attempting to actually have any skill as a gamer and trying to figure out how to play your class best against said dungeon or boss. Sounds like the same type of people who use strategy guides to beat games, which to me is a giant no no because it wouldn't feel like I beat it but rather someone showed me how to beat it, at least for me. Even if this is a community game, both sides, pro watchers and first time trier people lol, should be courteous of eachother and how they want to play. Just use party finder, that was suggested tons of times anyways, you can find similar minded people. I personally don't care if we have people in our party who are doing something for the first time and didn't watch a video, it's fun to see how they play, if they die, who the fu** cares, that's what happens in a video game. Same as if there's a team all comprised of people who have made it through, it's nice to get through the dungeon, but eventually even the person who hasn't 'researched' the dungeon will make it through, if they can't chances are the videos won't do them anything anyways. You're not 'pro', you're not doing any justice to yourself by spoiling all the content, you're not a better gamer because you research prior fights and mimic someone else' player style, and it should not be a common courtesy to watch end game content or dungeons before trying it yourself.

I'd not expect people to watch a video for WP or ak. Or really even for Haukke, copper bell or Pharos. I could understand wanting people to watch videos for extremes just because they have a lot of mechanics throughout the fight and can't really be described.

I have no trouble explaining fights to new people if they ask. And quite frankly I hate the current trend of someone beating a fight and then posting a "guide" which is nothing more than a video from a terrible camera angle that does nothing to inform people of what is actually going on.

i wont spoil my game experience by watching videos of content im planning to do , if you wanna do it feel free but dont try to force it to everyone

I'd hate to see how you people would act if dying actually left you with a serious penalty.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

I'd hate to see how you people would act if dying actually left you with a serious penalty.

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I feel you want to take gaming more serious than you should.

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Originally Posted by Royin

I feel you want to take gaming more serious than you should.

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No it's quite the opposite!

Gaming is for fun.

In FFXI dying could cost you hours of EXP or even lower your level. It was a painful penalty - but people still got along and for the time I played that game (8 years!) I never really encountered anything close to the level of egotism or immaturity I see in FFXIV currently in regards to more difficult encounters.

Dying in this game has little appreciable effect on your character's well being; at most you might need to stop and repair more often if you die frequently.

I find it borderline amusing that people can be so demanding and harsh in game that offers no true penalty for being inexperienced (and by extension dying a lot) - I'd really hate to see how ridiculous players would act if the penalties in game were more serious.

(:

but the game does also a poor explanation job in fights , there should be some hints for new ppl on what to do , simple lines of text like in all videogames that help understand what needs to be done , even if not by default atleast after a wipe to explain how you died and how to avoid it , if you wanna blame someone - blame the game design and not the players who are victims of said design :)

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Originally Posted by Dhex

No it's quite the opposite!

Gaming is for fun.

In FFXI dying could cost you hours of EXP or even lower your level. It was a painful penalty - but people still got along and for the time I played that game (8 years!) I never really encountered anything close to the level of egotism or immaturity I see in FFXIV currently in regards to more difficult encounters.

Dying in this game has little appreciable effect on your character's well being; at most you might need to stop and repair more often if you die frequently.

I find it borderline amusing that people can be so demanding and harsh in game that offers no true penalty for being inexperienced (and by extension dying a lot) - I'd really hate to see how ridiculous players would act if the penalties in game were more serious.

(:

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Sounds crazy. I am not sure I would have ever gotten past Titan Story if I de-leveled every time I died.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

No it's quite the opposite!

Gaming is for fun.

In FFXI dying could cost you hours of EXP or even lower your level. It was a painful penalty - but people still got along and for the time I played that game (8 years!) I never really encountered anything close to the level of egotism or immaturity I see in FFXIV currently in regards to more difficult encounters.

Dying in this game has little appreciable effect on your character's well being; at most you might need to stop and repair more often if you die frequently.

I find it borderline amusing that people can be so demanding and harsh in game that offers no true penalty for being inexperienced (and by extension dying a lot) - I'd really hate to see how ridiculous players would act if the penalties in game were more serious.

(:

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That's because the early game forced group leveling weeded most of those players out. Those actually not expecting everything to be delivered to them on a golden platter stuck around and didn't mind having mistakes which punished the player.

Don't want to have to run back to the dunes from your Home point, learn to work together in groups and not die, carry this lesson to your next leveling area. Want to get groups faster? Come prepared and ready to preform your role, make friends, those people understand you aren't wasting their time when they play with you and invite you whenever they can.

As for those who said "I hate needing to be in a party for everything!" the entire point of the game was playing with others in parties/alliances seriously shut up and gtfo.

Obviously the genre wasn't aimed for those wanting a solo/casual experience but now those who liked a challenge have been driven out of the game genre which started as a niche market for those gamers.

I really don't understand why this is even an issue, expecting people to watch a video of everything before they do it is silly, for some people it helps but from my experience you never really learn a fight, especially like titan, until you try it several times and gain experience. Watching videos is helpful, sure, but at the end of the day if somebody doesn't want to spoil content they've never done I don't blame them.

If you don't want to play with people who are inexperienced then make your own damn group and add experience to the party finder comment like everybody else, don't throw together a quick pug that includes inexperienced players and expect everybody to be on their A game because that isn't going to happen. Every difficult fight is always going to take experience to advance so you should really just train yourselves to have patience because I can guarantee you that will go a lot further than coming to the forums, trying to make up rules, and then whining when everybody doesn't follow the same opinion.

Am I being trolled?
woosh?

If I am, I'll take the bait.
@Kuwagami I do the freshly released content with FC mates and try to figure it out on our own. After that it is simply wasting peoples time to join a group and just go in blind.

I just don't get where these fabled creatures exist that gather together in a party of 8 and do endgame content(blind) after it has been out for a month or more.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

I'd hate to see how you people would act if dying actually left you with a serious penalty.

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The devs would too, thank the twelve they aren't as stupid as they used to be

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Originally Posted by Bloopan

[1]Watch a video and/or read guides before going through it.

Be more aware, the time you spent learning can save you the frustration of going over and over a run.

[2]You are now eligible for it but that doesnt mean you are "good to go"

Your gears play a crucial part in terms of clearing a run so if you think/know that your barely getting that requirement, use your time more wisely by running more appropriate dungeons so you'll be more prepared for the higher ones.

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Why should I be forced to watch a video?. Did the people that did that content before me watch video?. I'll answer that for you in advance NO!!!.I'll DF new content and I'll learn as I go along thanks!. If you don't like it then make your own damn party and stop being such an ass!. I do agree with the gear Levels though when people enter harder content in low gear is just stupid!.

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Originally Posted by Chippy2

Did the people that did that content before me watch video?.

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Probably. I'm sure most of them watched how other fcs do it like with "Worlds first". Unless you're a super hardcore gamer and in a good fc/ls, it will take you a lot longer to be at their level.

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Originally Posted by Chippy2

Why should I be forced to watch a video?.

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To find ways to improve your game and get better. You'll have more fun when you're good at things I suppose instead of wiping over and over.

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Originally Posted by Chippy2

Why should I be forced to watch a video?. Did the people that did that content before me watch video?. I'll answer that for you in advance NO!!!.I'll DF new content and I'll learn as I go along thanks!. If you don't like it then make your own damn party and stop being such an ass!. I do agree with the gear Levels though when people enter harder content in low gear is just stupid!.

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Yes, the people in your group most likely watched videos or read a general guide on the mechanics of the fight. Would you except their advise on how best to do the fight? If yes, then why not be prepared and do the research yourself? They are basically regurgitating what is already available to you. If you don't want to know anything about the fight, and want to wing it, why should they sit there and wait for you? If you want to do a endgame raid with other individuals that don't want to do any research, then make a PF group yourself.

There is never guna be a conclusion to his argument. people who think you should watch a video before you try content want those who dont want to watch a video to make their own parties and vice versa. maybe everyone should stop using the duty finder haha

I'm fine with people not watching videos for any of the dungeons, up to Pharos Sirius and Labyrinth of the Ancients. If I am experienced enough compared to the rest of the party, even for primals or Coil, I'd take some time aside and explain stuff to them. Not clearing after 10 or 15 attempts will get to me as well. But under 10 attempts, I am willing to teach people who are willing to learn the fight.

Call me stupid for helping a DF party learn Siren by wiping 70 minutes at it, and still eventually failing the duty. Sure I got frustrated a few times. But in the end, I hoped that I at least helped these people to be more familiar with the fight. And that's all I really aim for. I feel that I have a duty to the help improve the community in any way I can, which is why I did not just up and leave after 2 wipes. It would have been all the more satisfying had we actually cleared it.

Everyone here just goes on and on about how bad players are - have you actually done anything to improve this situation at all? Shunning new players for "not watching videos", sure doesn't help. Not everyone learns by watching videos, I am the sort who learns by hands-on experience. Funny how people complain about bad players, but not helping to actually help those bad players become good players. It's like teachers on the first day of school complaining why their students did not finish reading the entire textbook before the first day of class.

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Originally Posted by Boris1988

There is never guna be a conclusion to his argument. people who think you should watch a video before you try content want those who dont want to watch a video to make their own parties and vice versa. maybe everyone should stop using the duty finder haha

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Party Finder is the conclusion to this argument.

Queuing with random people and feeling entitled to getting a specific skill level is an egocentric, pigheaded opinion. Especially when Party Finder exists with an ilvl restriction option.

Like, wth? Nobody owes them anything. If you don't like the skill level, either try to raise it through explanation or flame/ragequit like a typical douche.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

Party Finder is the conclusion to this argument.

Queuing with random people and feeling entitled to getting a specific skill level is an egocentric, pigheaded opinion. Especially when Party Finder exists with an ilvl restriction option.

Like, wth? Nobody owes them anything. If you don't like the skill level, either try to raise it through explanation or flame/ragequit like a typical douche.

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I am missing where it says in this thread only DF....can you point that out?

You can't DF Coil, so there goes the only true endgame content. If you DF extreme primals, I feel bad for you. There are plenty of PF 'learning' groups and 'farm' groups. So what you posted is pointless. Read the title of this thread.

The problem with even trying to explain stuff to people is this... they don't listen and they don't give 2 shits. I still ask if people are new but other then the usual greetings its just crickets.

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Originally Posted by Sunah

The problem with even trying to explain stuff to people is this... they don't listen and they don't give 2 shits. I still ask if people are new but other then the usual greetings its just crickets.

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A lot of players take it personal when you try to teach them and they will play however they want to play.

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Originally Posted by Sunah

The problem with even trying to explain stuff to people is this... they don't listen and they don't give 2 shits. I still ask if people are new but other then the usual greetings its just crickets.

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Originally Posted by Doo

A lot of players take it personal when you try to teach them and they will play however they want to play.

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I will admit I have never come across this problem though. Whenever I have players who are new to the dungeon, or players who are obviously struggling with their class, whenever I take the time to explain something to them, they're willing to listen. I have been playing this game since 3 days after launch, at the beginning of September.

Perhaps it's in the delivery of said explanation?

Do you know that dungeon that a lot of people hate? Yes, I'm talking about Pharos Sirius. Well, I had like a ton of fun when we ran it fresh when nobody knew how to do it, and I still have fun running it with people experiencing it for the first time (I even prefer them to the "pr0s" that quit when they see that they got that dungeon in the roulette).

If someone doesn't want to watch a video before doing anything and experience content as some of us did when it was firstly introduced, they're in their right to do so, specially new players that haven't made a lot of friends or that don't have a FC yet. When I want to do a perfect run with people that I know that will know the fight I just go with my FC, instead of trying my luck with pick ups/DF and then complain.

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Originally Posted by juniglee

Perhaps it's in the delivery of said explanation?

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Maybe I need to change race to Lalafell to make it seem softer?

Anyways, it depends on the content. Dungeons are easy and light parties are easier to help new players learn. 8 man harder content is really when it gets bad. Chances of winning in DF and PF with new players is practically extremely low. Heck most likely won't even get any good attempts in. Hence where I think guides and videos would help them out along with experience.

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Originally Posted by Doo

Because spending hours of your time to help someone that you'll probably never meet again is some how the right thing to do. So instead of actually trying to beat content, you end up as a trainer.



That's because it benefits your fc to train you to do content. You being more geared and all helps your fc be better. I'm sure if you guys df content together you wouldn't be explaining fights to newbies over and over again.

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I have done plenty of Duty Finder and usually always have someone i have to explain the run to....and you know what? It hasn't inconvenienced me at all.

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Originally Posted by Doo

Maybe I need to change race to Lalafell to make it seem softer?

Anyways, it depends on the content. Dungeons are easy and light parties are easier to help new players learn. 8 man harder content is really when it gets bad. Chances of winning in DF and PF with new players is practically extremely low. Heck most likely won't even get any good attempts in. Hence where I think guides and videos would help them out along with experience.

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Perhaps. The master race would welcome your changing!

I agree it's quite frustrating teaching people in Extreme Primals or Ultima HM, because such content you actually have to bang your head against a wall multiple times to learn it, it's not something you can pick up first time, unless you're a prodigy. Videos and guides do help, but only a certain amount. They will still have to experience it themselves.

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Originally Posted by ulti_19

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Then I guess the entirety of humanity has been baby fed, right? We learn from our predecessors, you are perfectly within your right to refuse to do so, but that's typically frowned upon. In a game or otherwise.

And like at least one other has stated, in my experience the ones who TRULY want to go in blind, are not as common as the ones who don't want to research themselves.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Attitudes like that are why MMOs are so toxic, do others a favor and never join a DF or roulette group.

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Good. How about the newbs out there do me a favor and never join my groups? That way, the newbs can die to plumes/howled healers/Mistral Shriek, the experienced people can clear the content without wiping so many times. Everyone wins!

Oh, what's that? The newbs want a carry too?

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Originally Posted by Bloopan

[1]Watch a video and/or read guides before going through it.


[2]You are now eligible for it but that doesnt mean you are "good to go"

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I can't seem to remember reading this on the game everywhere, it's just that I can check the box on DF, so I checked it

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

Do you know that dungeon that a lot of people hate? Yes, I'm talking about Pharos Sirius. Well, I had like a ton of fun when we ran it fresh when nobody knew how to do it, and I still have fun running it with people experiencing it for the first time (I even prefer them to the "pr0s" that quit when they see that they got that dungeon in the roulette).

If someone doesn't want to watch a video before doing anything and experience content as some of us did when it was firstly introduced, they're in their right to do so, specially new players that haven't made a lot of friends or that don't have a FC yet. When I want to do a perfect run with people that I know that will know the fight I just go with my FC, instead of trying my luck with pick ups/DF and then complain.

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I agree 111%.

Also, too many players want not only to win all the time, but to win in no time. Passing first boss in Sirius took me (and my several groups) 4 runs. Beating Halicarnassus in Haukke Hard took me 7/8 runs. It was a blast. Just for that reason, I love both dungeons much more than if I had one-shotted them.

When a group disbands at the first wipe, I hardly believe my eyes...

For me is unacceptable in the 2014, the people refuse Read informative web sites or watch one the millions of videos Lets play in youtube.

Yes in the 2005. We were dealing with people without access to the information because they played on ps2 and we teach those players all the mechanisms in the Fights.

Im Respecting you as Newbie, explaing you everything before a fight but i ask you the same, respect the time the other players and look for info before jump straight in the new dungeon.

You can watch the CS in 1080p full HD after we beat the dungeon in youtube. But Please this is not 2005 anymore, dont make us deal with your laziness and your disrespect to the time other players.

so much elitism, so little common human sense. did you forget that you have to train people to do their job? even a frycook cant go and do everything immediately just by watching a video or reading a guide. it takes doing the work to get a feel for it. You think doctors just read books and are immediately an expert in their field? no, it takes PRACTICE and PATIENCE. those 2 words are things you know very little to nothing of i guess. or did you forget when you first did every single dungeon.