People need to speak up more for Alchemist buff.

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To be honest I agree most pots are useless except for those giving mega-stats HQ.

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They are not. They are far from useless. People just don't use them. Read my post(s) above.

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Originally Posted by Crevox

When it comes to gear, people care about every single tiny point. When it comes to potions and food, oh, that doesn't matter. Most players won't even use them, and yet they care so much about the stat when it's on their gear.

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FFXIV has yet to prove to be a game where min maxing stats is actually all that important. We had people with DL pieces while completing T5 before CT was even out. As it stands content in FFXIV is more about learning the set move list than it is about having gear that ensures you have every last point of HP, defence, healing power or dps you possibly can. Certainly, combat becomes mindlessly easy once you have tweaked everything to BIS + food + making use of pots as part of your rotations. But right now none of that is essential or even really needed. And I guess that's where the argument is stemming from, that with combat encounters in their current format, potions do not serve a NEED and there for are easily ignored leaving the Alchemist crafting class kind of pointless and useless.

Elixirs and ethers were important in 1.0 because BLMs can't regen mp like they do now.

Crevox, it doesn't matter if you see the use and potential of the potions. The fact remains that the majority does not, probably won't anytime soon, and until something else changes, Alchemists will continue to suffer. I don't have the time to gather materials and craft even the low level potions. It's really not worth it to me. So unless you somehow manage to educate everyone in the game on potions and start some massive movement that changes everyone else's habits, you will continue to see people not using potions, and Alchemists left behind in the money making.

I miss the old Alchemist being able to synth all your own crystals and shards.. It was an awesome job. :(

I wouldn't mind a slight duration boost in exchange for a slight decrease in the stats they give.

I think 30 seconds is a fair time to expect for the buff duration.

So basically, potions are supposed to be the "Drink in case of emergency" type deal that might give you a change to salvage a bad situation, but only once during a major battle? I could live with that, if potions where actually effective enough to do that. Right now, their ability to effect the outcome of a fight is practically nil.

Again, I can live with the cooldown, but they need to be worth that cooldown.

Id be happy with a macro command for using items in combat (unless I missed it). If I could macro the use of an X-potion (whenever it is up) used in combination with Mantra and Second Wind, the combination of all of that MIGHT constitute one good heal every 2 min or so. As it stands, I do use potions at end game, but only because I have Alchemist Leveled so I spam them for the heck of it. This goes with High end ethers as well. I toss them in whenever possible as whm/sch as soon as the cool-down comes up. It isn't something that matters much but since I have several stacks I use them. At this point I think this is about the most you can hope for as far as usefulness goes. I also agree that at the VERY least, there needs to be a separation between various cool-downs. Using a potion that increases my Earth Resistance for 15 seconds shouldn't penalize my need to heal HP or MP in the next 5 minutes.

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Originally Posted by odie

Crevox, it doesn't matter if you see the use and potential of the potions. The fact remains that the majority does not, probably won't anytime soon, and until something else changes, Alchemists will continue to suffer. I don't have the time to gather materials and craft even the low level potions. It's really not worth it to me. So unless you somehow manage to educate everyone in the game on potions and start some massive movement that changes everyone else's habits, you will continue to see people not using potions, and Alchemists left behind in the money making.

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So Square Enix has to ruin the balance of the game because people are ignorant and haven't figured out the worth of an item? SE has done everything right. The player base is at fault.

There will come a time when people realize how worthwhile potions are. Maybe someone will teach them, maybe the game will get hard and people will look for ways to do better. Ultimately, people do purchase potions; the people that DO know they are useful. Is there are large untapped market? Yes, yes there is. But what do you think SE is supposed to do about it? You want to them to make them completely overpowered so that people will feel forced to use them? Did you not read the CM's post? He made a perfectly good point. Right now, they are great; and the people that use them know this, and are very effective. Anyone else that wants to use them can go right ahead, however, there's really not much SE can do to force people to play better.

Ultimately, you can't blame SE. The potions are fine as they are. As the game evolves and players figure out that potions are worthwhile, maybe they'll start selling. From an MMORPG design standpoint, these potions are no different than potions in other games like WoW, and are used the same way too. They are effective and help you defeat content.

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I wouldn't mind a slight duration boost in exchange for a slight decrease in the stats they give.

I think 30 seconds is a fair time to expect for the buff duration.

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That would be a nerf. Potions are useful for the small burst of power they provide; making use of that burst of power in the most opportune ways is what makes them so effective. Increasing the duration would only make them worse if you have to nerf the stats. You shouldn't be trying to change potions into something they're not.

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So basically, potions are supposed to be the "Drink in case of emergency" type deal that might give you a change to salvage a bad situation, but only once during a major battle? I could live with that, if potions where actually effective enough to do that. Right now, their ability to effect the outcome of a fight is practically nil.

Again, I can live with the cooldown, but they need to be worth that cooldown.

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No, they're not only for emergencies. Potions are amazing in all situations, and no, their ability to affect the outcome of a fight is huge. I'm surprised the cooldown is as low as it is; you can use TWO potions in most fights.

If DPS classes use STR/INT/DEX potions at the proper times in a fight and in synchronization with their rotations and abilities, they are a huge DPS increase. They easily allow you to overcome DPS requirements you previously could not, or simply kill the targets faster (which of course, comes with a whole slew of benefits: save time, save mana, end the fight faster in order to live). Many fights have tight DPS situations that a potion would greatly help with (Titan Heart hard and extreme, Garuda sisters hard and extreme, Ifrit nails in extreme mode, Moogle first phase and getting down those painful moogles in second phase, I could go on and on and on).

Healers can simply use Ethers or Mind potions to boost their healing abilities. It doesn't have to be an emergency. A snapshotted Medica II or Regen off a White Mage with a mind potion is a massive potency increase. Combine that with a Divine Seal, and you double dip. That provides a lot of long term survivability, again, going against the 30 second potion duration ideal. Scholars can do the same with their shields; ESPECIALLY a critical Adloquium, or a Roused Whispering Dawn. Ethers are just a huge amount of MP restoration, and MP is power. MP allows you to do things. Healers have such a diverse skill set that they can be greedy with their MP and boost the groups survivability at any time, making more MP always a good thing. Heck, you can even use an INT potion and deal damage, snapshotting DoTs (both healers have them!) onto the boss. It helps more than you know.

Tanks can use them in tough situations just to make things easier to heal. Vitality potions during things like Ultima's orb phase allows a tank to have that extra HP to ensure survival when soaking orbs, or to simply stay alive while the healers are stressed to heal everyone else. X-Potions can be used to heal up as well, mitigating damage. Both are just extra tank cooldowns, and EVERYONE can use these; not just tanks. Tanks can even use a STR potion to boost their enmity generation when they need to pick up new mobs, or in an AoE situation to hold everything with ease (Turn 4, speed runs, Moogle, the list goes on). The DPS increase the tanks get is also quite noticeable, and again, snapshotting DoTs with it is even better, or timing it with huge enmity modifiers like Rage of Halone and Shield Oath. Because the enmity modifiers on tanks is so large, any amount of extra damage they gain, is in turn, a huge enmity generation gain. Can you understand how much extra enmity a tank can generate thanks to a STR potion? It's a crazy amount, even for something like Flash.

Potions are ridiculous. Like, amazing. Really, really good. Players (you) just haven't realized it yet. And I can't go around teaching everyone how to use them effectively. Again, the above are just a FEW examples of their applications; there are tons of creative, opportune moments and strategies you can use in different encounters to make them critically effective. They are the difference between life and death in many situations, especially for those groups struggling to push out just a little bit more of everything in order to win a fight. The only problem? The player has to know how to use it, and when to use it. That's not something Square Enix can hold your hand for you to do; you have to figure it out.

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Using a potion that increases my Earth Resistance for 15 seconds shouldn't penalize my need to heal HP or MP in the next 5 minutes.

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You use the potion that best benefits the situation. Is that Earth Resistance potion going to mitigate more damage than the X-Potion would heal? That's up to you to figure out. On something like Tumult, or maybe Mountain Buster (not positive it's Earth Damage) you can mitigate a lot of damage, especially if you're under Weakness and need that little extra survivability. That's the great thing about potions: you have a choice. Different potions for different situations, and players can make informed decisions on which bonus they need and when.

Crevox please be less toxic in the forum. Presuming people are ignorant appears rude.

Most of the argument I'm seeing isn't that people haven't figured out the potions' "worth", it's that they think they could be worth more... especially for the cost.

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Originally Posted by Gesser

Crevox please be less toxic in the forum. Presuming people are ignorant appears rude.

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Less toxic? I'm not being toxic. People are ignoring potions, and ignoring their worth, ignoring their power, in order to complain and ask SE to buff them. Is that not ignorance?

ig·no·rance
noun
1.
lack of knowledge or information.

People don't know, and that's all there is to it. I'm not being toxic for pointing out that people are being ignorant (the topic itself is saying the opposite: that potions are useless).

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it's that they think they could be worth more... especially for the cost.

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They're not hard to get. People sell them at high prices because those alchemists are controlling the market; which goes directly against this topic, that alchemists need a "buff." If they really are selling them at a high cost, then they don't need a buff, because clearly they're making money off of selling a good product.

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Originally Posted by Crevox

They're not hard to get. People sell them at high prices because those alchemists are controlling the market; which goes directly against this topic, that alchemists need a "buff." If they really are selling them at a high cost, then they don't need a buff, because clearly they're making money off of selling a good product.

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Potions are a luxury item, from what you describe in your posts and from as evidenced in game so far. Potions are not required to complete combat, they can boost your numbers and and help you squeeze out a little more dps if you really want. But it doesn't change the fact that all content can be completed, and completed easily mind you, without them. The only time you'd want to start making an active use of potions during combat is if you were attempting to do fights under geared and needed the boosts. But as it stands, there isn't any real incentive to push beyond some fights phase triggers. For example IfritX has measures in place where if you try to dps him down before the nails are dealt with you get instant wiped.

Because content can be cleared with relative ease without the use of potions, why would anyone want to spend money on them other than to satisfy their own personal gratification for seeing bigger numbers?

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Potions are a luxury item, from what you describe in your posts and from as evidenced in game so far. Potions are not required to complete combat, they can boost your numbers and and help you squeeze out a little more dps if you really want. But it doesn't change the fact that all content can be completed and completed easily mind y

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Exactly. They are not required, and that's SE's intent. They are perfectly fine.

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Because content can be cleared with relative ease without the use of potions, why would anyone want to spend money on them other than to satisfy their own personal gratification for seeing bigger numbers?

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Because not everyone is of that skill level, or the people any given person is partied with is not of that skill level. You may be the best DPS ever in the world, but that DRG in your party is a keyboard turner that only spams Full Thrust. Through use of a potion, you can achieve victory.

Or, even in a normal scenario, more DPS = faster clear. Faster = more efficient, and we all know how much players love to go fast and be more efficient (speed runs cough).

The problem in your post is that you are assuming that all players clear all content with ease; which is far from the case. Here's just one example: they are nerfing the hard mode dungeons because too many people wipe on them (source: Letter from the Producer).

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For example IfritX has measures in place where if you try to dps him down before the nails are dealt with you get instant wiped.

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You use the potions to kill the nails.

Also keep in mind, that none of my posts have mentioned enfeebling potions; which are also very good, and do not share a cooldown with buff potions.

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Originally Posted by Crevox

Exactly. They are not required, and that's SE's intent. They are perfectly fine.

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And that is the complaint that people have against the Alchemist class, it serves no real required purpose. It's core functionality is the production of potions and other such drinkables. It's one of two disposable item generating crafting classes. However the discrepancy between each of these classes, CUL and ALC, is that although in FFXIV both generate luxury items and while none of their wares are actually required to complete content, people are willing to invest in food because it's far more useful in combat than potions / poisons.

CUL has been made far more viable through the tweaking of it's 'exist through death' buff. This provides players with a safer investment for their money and gives food a very real and very effective use in battle. A passive buff you don't have to worry about for 30-40min and this allows CUL to be a somewhat profitable crafting endeavour.

Where as ALC's potions are far less effective in use for their current CD's and effects making them a riskier investment for players considering content can be and has been regularly completed without them. This is what people I think are trying to get at when they are asking for changes to be made so that ALC has an equivalent level of viability to that of CUL.

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And that is the complaint that people have against the Alchemist class, it serves no real required purpose.

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If anything, Alchemists are more useful than any other craft.

All of the other crafts make item level 70 gear. Once you gear past that, that's it. They're done. You don't need that craft anymore.

Alchemists? Lol, they're useful ALL the time, at ALL tiers of content. Potions are useful from once you hit 50 to the end of Bahamut's Coil and Extreme Modes.

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Where as ALC's potions are far less effective in use for their current CD's and effects making them a riskier investment for players considering content can be and has been regularly completed without them. This is what people I think are trying to get at when they are asking for changes to be made so that ALC has an equivalent level of viability to that of CUL.

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I would say CUL and ALC's contributions to a fight are about the same. The total damage gained from using a food for the duration a fight, versus the total damage gained from using two potions (at the right times). Yeah, about the same, except potions also allow you to control when that burst of power is applied, using it at opportune moments in any given encounter (Titan Heart).

While yes, food may be a safer investment due to the fact that a wipe does not simply cause a loss of the item, potions are also a lot cheaper. I would say the amount of gil it takes to get a similar, good quality food for the course of X amount of encounter attempts is the same as it takes to afford X amount of potions for all those encounter attempts. If you don't want to compare gil, you can also simply compare the effort to obtain the materials; it matches up as well.

Like I said; it's not SE's fault people are misinterpreting and not understanding the effectiveness of potions.

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Originally Posted by Crevox

Like I said; it's not SE's fault people are misinterpreting and not understanding the effectiveness of potions.

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No but it is SE's fault for designing content that doesn't require the use of these items. I understand your argument for potions and I can see what you're getting at but I still think you're missing the point slightly.

I'm pretty bad at analogies but I'm going to try anyway so bear with me ^^;

If you can get through your daily life just fine breathing the normal everyday air and the someone came up to you and said "Hey! For $50 I can make you small cannisters of cleaner air that doesn't contain anyone else's CO2 to get you through your days a little bit easier."

Would you bother wasting the money to buy those canisters? Essentially what I'm trying to very badly get at is that there is no market in FFXIV for potions because there is no real or perceived need driving players to use them.

I'm sorry, but could you please stop pulling stuff out of your ass to try to build up potions. You were already grasping at straws with the, "use STR potions in tandem with Shield Oath to get more hate", or "use INT pots to throw some killer DoTs with your healer". Name the last time anyone other than you has used those potions to even attempt to do anything like that.

Right now, potions are lack-luster with very few real applications that are enticing for people to buy / use. 400ish HP heal or 500 MP restored. That's pretty pathetic, that's half a tumult / 2 casts for a healer. Both are barely noticeable, then on top of it, you have to wait another 5 minutes to use another potion. Let's face it, they are sub-par in every way when compared to the 30 minute lasting through death effects that food brings to the table.

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I'm sorry, but could you please stop pulling stuff out of your ass to try to build up potions. You were already grasping at straws with the, "use STR potions in tandem with Shield Oath to get more hate", or "use INT pots to throw some killer DoTs with your healer". Name the last time anyone other than you has used those potions to even attempt to do anything like that.

Right now, potions are lack-luster with very few real applications that are enticing for people to buy / use. 400ish HP heal or 500 MP restored. That's pretty pathetic, that's half a tumult / 2 casts for a healer. Both are barely noticeable, then on top of it, you have to wait another 5 minutes to use another potion. Let's face it, they are sub-par in every way when compared to the 30 minute lasting through death effects that food brings to the table.

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I'm not "pulling stuff out of my ass."

http://i.imgur.com/8CnjFLe.png

You like my potions? I certainly do. I use them every boss fight. I do over 1600 damage with Fester with them, or 2.2k+ damage Flares (sorry, not fully geared on BLM nor SMN). That's not even counting the rest of the damage added thanks to them (snapshotted 45 second dots? Yes, please). Their effectiveness is boosted even harder thanks to the fact that they boost base damage, and then % mods (Raging Strikes and Foe Requiem) then inflict increased damage off of that new base.

People just need to stop trying to argue that potions are useless. They are not. They're far from useless. If you want to look and hate on specific numbers so badly, go ahead and go look how much damage you get from getting better gear, or using food. You won't be happy.

The community does the same thing on other topics. One person says they're useless, and the entire community hiveminds to that point and spams likes to get them to be buffed. If anyone speaks against it, the community doesn't like it, and spam likes on any post that tries to prove it wrong.

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No but it is SE's fault for designing content that doesn't require the use of these items.

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Would that make them used? Yes, it would. But SE doesn't want to be a requirement; they are an aid. If they were required, every player would have to use them, and they would hate it even more than they do now. At the moment, they're an extremely useful supplemental aid for anyone that wants it. Honestly, this is no different than food, or even getting higher gear than the minimum item level to clear content. You can go ahead and clear Ifrit extreme in full item level 71; but why would you when you have better gear? Why would you not use potions?

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Originally Posted by Crevox

Why would you not use potions?

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Because they aren't worth it, from a money stand point and a performance stand point. They are really sub-par for what they do, and yes, I do have HQ DEX pots on my bar for bard. Half the time I have to argue with myself if I should even bother because it's simply money down the drain to make a fight take about four seconds less than what it would if I didn't use it. As far as HP/MP pots are concerned, they aren't worth it unless they had maybe 1.5-2x the effect. At least not with the current cool down they have.

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Originally Posted by Mikara

Because they aren't worth it, from a money stand point and a performance stand point. They are really sub-par for what they do, and yes, I do have HQ DEX pots on my bar for bard. Half the time I have to argue with myself if I should even bother because it's simply money down the drain to make a fight take about four seconds less than what it would if I didn't use it. As far as HP/MP pots are concerned, they aren't worth it unless they had maybe 1.5-2x the effect. At least not with the current cool down they have.

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They're not expensive or hard to get. Go gather the materials and have them crafted. I took ONE day and just farmed the materials, and I've been using those same potions I got crafted for months. It's the same cost/time to make food. It's no different.

The cooldown means you can use it 1-2 times per fight, depending on the boss. You choose when to use it rather than it being a passive braindead buff for the entire fight. You'll get the same benefit out of that potion (possibly even more, and that's not counting opportunity benefit) as food. Simply because you don't like the way the numbers look from your angle does not mean it's bad. If that were the case, trust me, if you don't like how potion numbers look, you won't like food or gear benefits either.

Every class has different, opportune moments in their rotation where popping a potion is extremely beneficial. Knowing that key moment, and then also timing it up with the encounter, is unlocking the maximum benefit of potions.

Doesn't change the fact that the actual useful applications are VERY limited and still not worth spending the time / money on wasting when food does a much better job over the course of the fight (or many fights if you are farming them).

I'm a level 50 alchemist, and I won't even bother with potions. Why? Because why bother with the time, effort and or cost required to acquire them when I can clear content without them?

Yes I understand SE's stance on the matter, I'm just saying that that stance leaves Alchemist in its current state lacking in it's ability to effectively contribute to the economy. There is never a market for anything that doesn't have a driving need. And currently in FFXIV there is no driving need for these items.

People perceive them as useless because in reality they see no real use for them, because they do not need them.

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Originally Posted by Mikara

Doesn't change the fact that the actual useful applications are VERY limited and still not worth spending the time / money on wasting when food does a much better job over the course of the fight (or many fights if you are farming them).

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Limited? Name one fight where you think they're not useful. Every fight has moments where they greatly increase encounter success, for every role.

As for the farming comment, like I said: the cost of that good quality food is the same cost of X potions over those X fights. Maybe the gil market doesn't agree, but the amount of effort to obtain them sure does.

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And currently in FFXIV there is no driving need for these items.

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There is no driving need simply because players don't know their usefulness. Not everyone clears all content with ease; there are wipes and failures on all content every day. Any one of those failures could have potentially been averted if potions were used (skillfully).

That's probably the one problem with potions: they require knowledge of when and how to use them. If you're sloppy and use them ineffectively, then yeah, of course they're going to be bad. But I've already provided tons of explanations on how and where to use them.

I'd honestly rather consumables be a staple for the hardest dungeons, just so there'll at least be more demand in this currently horrible market economy.

Crafters definitely need more value in this game.

The thing is in ffxiv people aren't wiping because they don't have min max gear and potion rotations but because they didn't respond accordingly to the next move in a bosses sequence.

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Originally Posted by Zaels

I'd honestly rather consumables be a staple for the hardest dungeons, just so there'll at least be more demand in this currently horrible market economy.

Crafters definitely need more value in this game.

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Still, at the moment, I don't see how anyone can say alchemists are in poor shape. They have more long term worth and marketing power than the majority of other crafters; the only one that is probably better is CUL.

Can't blame SE for people not knowing how good potions are. I'm not saying I have a solution, but buffing potions is not the answer.

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The thing is in ffxiv people aren't wiping because they don't have min max gear and potion rotations but because they didn't respond accordingly to the next move in a bosses sequence.

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Now we're straying off topic. That's a completely different problem for another time.

People want gear. People want stats. People want power to do better in encounters. Potions do exactly that; their effectiveness is simply poorly judged.

I'm done trying to talk to this guy, he is obviously high / drunk on the amount of potions he has drank. Please seek rehab as soon as you can.

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Originally Posted by Mikara

I'm done trying to talk to this guy, he is obviously high / drunk on the amount of potions he has drank. Please seek rehab as soon as you can.

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The ultimate counter argument

I reported the Rep, as I did with the last two statements surrounding crafting.

What they say is:
Crafting is not needed, we have dungeon drops for you.
Crafting is not needed, we want you to bring a healer and don't make him obsolet.
Crafting is not needed, because everything you need can be bought along the way you level.

CRAFTING is in your game, it is covered with 8 classes.
WHAT are your plans?

Clearly your numbers are off or the person in charge responsible of reading the numbers is not willing to risk any single bit or simply unable to.

My decision is my wallet, you want some of my money, earn it. You won't earn it this way.

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Originally Posted by Crevox

Now we're straying off topic. That's a completely different problem for another time.

People want gear. People want stats. People want power to do better in encounters. Potions do exactly that; their effectiveness is simply poorly judged.

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Actually we are right on target with the discussion. You are arguing for potions by saying there is a need because people are wiping in encounters all the time. My counter to that is that it's not because they aren't using potions but because they've not reacted accordingly in a heavily scripted fight.

Potion usefulness is not required to complete content. People will not invest time and money in something that isn't required to complete content.

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Originally Posted by ToraFomalhaut

Actually we are right on target with the discussion. You are arguing for potions by saying there is a need because people are wiping in encounters all the time. My counter to that is that it's not because they aren't using potions but because they've not reacted accordingly in a heavily scripted fight.

Potion usefulness is not required to complete content. People will not invest time and money in something that isn't required to complete content.

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And yet people invest time and money in gear AND food.

People invest money in anything that they can see as a tangible benefit to their character's ability to perform in a group scenario. They simply don't see potions as worth it.

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Originally Posted by Crevox

The ultimate counter argument

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I've given you plenty of counter argument, you have chosen to ignore it by spouting the same potion chugging nonsense that you have been since you first entered the thread. I have never, nor will I ever see a tank "use a STR mega-potion to get my hate by using Shield Oath" or a healer "use a INT mega-potion to apply DoTs to turn a fight around". So I ask you, what is your actual counter point to my counter argument that you are clearly making stuff up to pretend that potions are not as awful as they are? Please enlighten me, I would love to tell my Coil group, hey, by the way, if we use XXX potion in this fight, we can shave 30-45 seconds off this fight.

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People invest money in anything that they can see as a tangible benefit to their character's ability to perform in a group scenario. They simply don't see potions as worth it.

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Finally, you say something to agree with what everyone has been saying in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Mikara

I've given you plenty of counter argument, you have chosen to ignore it by spouting the same potion chugging nonsense that you have been since you first entered the thread. I have never, nor will I ever see a tank "use a STR mega-potion to get my hate by using Shield Oath" or a healer "use a INT mega-potion to apply DoTs to turn a fight around". So I ask you, what is your actual counter point to my counter argument that you are clearly making stuff up to pretend that potions are not as awful as they are? Please enlighten me, I would love to tell my Coil group, hey, by the way, if we use XXX potion in this fight, we can shave 30-45 seconds off this fight.

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I've given you numbers. I've given you the scenarios to use them. You just refuse to accept them.

There's nothing I can do about that. You believe what you want to believe, and that's too bad for anyone else trying to convince you otherwise. No reason for me to bother any further.

yeah i make myself HQ x-pots just because i can and really 650 HP back isn't the best. i'd rather have a slightly longer cooldown on it with a slightly greater heal.

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Finally, you say something to agree with what everyone has been saying in this thread.

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I've said from the beginning that people misjudge the worth of potions. However, it is exactly that: a misjudgment. Potions ARE effective, and ARE worth the time and money to get.

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yeah i make myself HQ x-pots just because i can and really 650 HP back isn't the best. i'd rather have a slightly longer cooldown on it with a slightly greater heal

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As soon as that 650 HP is the driving difference between life and death, the potion has done its job. As a tank, it's all about popping cooldowns and heals in accordance with emergency scenarios or tough parts of the fight.

Potions are no different. If you KNOW you're about to get hit by an attack that will kill you, or you KNOW that the healers are not going to be able to heal you because they are busy healing the group or low on mana... that potion will save you. It will let you live a little bit longer, and that could be all the time in the world, just enough to survive and move on in the fight to win.

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Originally Posted by Crevox

And yet people invest time and money in gear AND food.

People invest money in anything that they can see as a tangible benefit to their character's ability to perform in a group scenario. They simply don't see potions as worth it.

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And that's the point potions do not exhibit any clear benefit towards combat. So you can shave 5-10 seconds off of your fight? So you can claim to your friends "Whoa just pulled off a 2.5k fester crit!" So what?

If I go buy 5k worth of HQ bit food and spend a few weeks farming my ilevel70 / 90 gear and clear coil and clear content with no worries? I can tell you potions are the least of my concerns.

Now if I had top tier gear and was struggling to clear content without potions then yeah you can sure bet I'd be willing to invest time and money in the potion market.

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Originally Posted by ToraFomalhaut

And that's the point potions do not exhibit any clear benefit towards combat. So you can shave 5-10 seconds off of your fight? So you can claim to your friends "Whoa just pulled off a 2.5k fester crit!" So what?

If I go buy 5k worth of HQ bit food and spend a few weeks farming my ilevel70 / 90 gear and clear coil and clear content with no worries? I can tell you potions are the least of my concerns.

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And yet there are situations all the time in duty finder or elsewhere that groups can't kill Titan's Heart in time, or they die with the boss having a tiny bit of HP left. If anyone used potions, they would've won. Those are just a couple examples: in other scenarios, like Garuda, killing the sister slightly faster greatly eases the healing load on the healers, which could allow the tank to survive and move on.

STR/INT/DEX Potions grant DPS, just like gear. Your arguments can be applied exactly the same to both gear and food.

The problem here is that you're not necessarily arguing against potions: you're arguing that encounters are too easy and nothing needs high enough stats to warrant the purchase. However, again, food is the same, and not everyone is in your position where the game is "so easy" that none of it is needed. People want and need both gear and food. They could want and need potions too, they just misjudge them.

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Originally Posted by Crevox

The problem here is that you're not necessarily arguing against potions: you're arguing that encounters are too easy and nothing needs high enough stats to warrant the purchase. However, again, food is the same, and not everyone is in your position where the game is "so easy" that none of it is needed. People want and need both gear and food. They could want and need potions too, they just misjudge them.

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Yes that is exactly what we've been arguing. In the current game, there is no outstanding need for potions to clear content. As I outlined earlier about food, no it's not needed but because of the 'persist through death' buff food got it became a safe and cost effective investment that had little downside to the long term passive buff it applied.

If I were geared in all BIS, had eaten food, and danced to the scripted fight perfectly and still struggled to beat it. Then I could consider potions in their current format as a viable and needed option. However in the current game, there is no need for that additional edge to drive the market for potions thus leaving alchemist as a dud craft.

So without changing how encounters behave, potions as they are now are useless and the only way to make them viable is to buff the way they operate. If combat encounters became situations where even in the best gear you still needed a small edge to make it through the fight while allowing for margins of error, then potions in their current format would make sense.

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Originally Posted by Crevox

I've said from the beginning that people misjudge the worth of potions. However, it is exactly that: a misjudgment.

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Time for me to compile a list of real uses for potions, anyone let me know if I'm missing anything.

1. A very minimal heal / MP restore that comes with a hefty cool down, in which you can't use option 2, 3, 4 and 5.
2. A sizable boost to DPS / healing potential for around 12 seconds. (Don't forget the 2-3 seconds I mentioned earlier where you can't do ANYTHING except for move after using a potion.) Locks you out from options 1, 3, 4 and 5.
3. A decent boost to HP and instant heal through an HQ VIT pot, the HP boost only lasts for 15 seconds. Locks you out of 1, 2, 4 and 5.
4. Remove a status effect that could get reapplied right after you remove the status effect. Locks you out of 1, 2, 3 and 5. HQ has no benefit except for lower cool down time.
5. Give yourself temporary elemental resistance, which who actually knows which attacks they affect or are useful against. Locks you out from options 1, 2, 3 and 4.
6. Apply a debuff to a target, will still consume potion even if the target is immune to the debuff. HQ has no benefit except for lower cool down time.

Outside of those I can't think of any uses for pots, and even most of the ones I have mentioned are still pretty lacking.

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Originally Posted by ToraFomalhaut

Yes that is exactly what we've been arguing. In the current game, there is no outstanding need for potions to clear content. As I outlined earlier about food, no it's not needed but because of the 'persist through death' buff food got it became a safe and cost effective investment that had little downside to the long term passive buff it applied.

If I were geared in all BIS, had eaten food, and danced to the scripted fight perfectly and still struggled to beat it. Then I could consider potions in their current format as a viable and needed option. However in the current game, there is no need driving the market for potions leaving alchemist as a dud craft.


So without changing how encounters behave, potions as they are are useless and the only way to make them viable is to buff the way they operate. If combat encounters became situations where even in the best gear you still needed a small edge to make it through the fight then potions in their current format would make sense.

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The majority of the player base does need that extra benefit to surpass content, and thus your point is moot.

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1. A very minimal heal / MP restore that comes with a hefty cool down, in which you can't use option 2, 3, 4 and 5.

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Not minimal. The heal will be the difference between life and death when used at the right time (like any survivability cooldown), and the MP restore will give you MP when you have none (thus changing you from doing nothing to being allowed to cast) or simply give you more MP to be greedy with powerful heals and spells. The MP restore also allows BLM to triple flare, and SMN to push their rotation harder (Ruin II's, contagion Miasma II, etc).

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2. A sizable boost to DPS / healing potential for around 12 seconds. (Don't forget the 2-3 seconds I mentioned earlier where you can't do ANYTHING except for move after using a potion.) Locks you out from options 1, 3, 4 and 5.

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It's 15 seconds duration on a potion. The "2-3" seconds is about 0.5 seconds, and it's off the GCD, so you can time it between skills/magic, just like any ability.

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3. A decent boost to HP and instant heal through an HQ VIT pot, the HP boost only lasts for 15 seconds. Locks you out of 1, 2, 4 and 5.

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An alternative to the heal from 1, yes. Slightly different use conditions, offering its own pros and cons.

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4. Remove a status effect that could get reapplied right after you remove the status effect. Locks you out of 1, 2, 3 and 5. HQ has no benefit except for lower cool down time.

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This is simply an extremely negative look on status cure potions. They aren't really needed in end game content anyways.

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5. Give yourself temporary elemental resistance, which who actually knows which attacks they affect or are useful against. Locks you out from options 1, 2, 3 and 4.

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Easy to tell. When proshell affects the damage, or any other magic resist buff (or Virus's Fever effect) you know its magical; and from there, it's generally very easy to tell the element. When I want to mitigate damage of X element, I use X elemental resist potion. Useful for saving your life from tumult when it would otherwise kill you due to healers not topping you off, or being under the effects of weakness (offering you ONE use scenario out of many).

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6. Apply a debuff to a target, will still consume potion even if the target is immune to the debuff. HQ has no benefit except for lower cool down time.

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Not hard to know what debuffs a monster is immune to. Warriors can use blind potions on demand to make mountain busters miss, or other critical attacks, since they have no native method of applying it. Poison potions are a straight up DPS increase. Sleep potions are just utility, giving any class an instant cast sleep.

Seems like you have a pretty good list. Not all of them go completely into the depth and options they provide, but it's a start.