Why mark targets?

Not every class excels at AE-damage (e.g. MNK).

Want a shorter version?

Just mark!...


Edit: Of course it's better to apply dots, yet people tend to be lazy and sometimes it's just wasted (e.g. mobs with very little HP).

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Originally Posted by YuiSasaki

Not every class excels at AE-damage (e.g. MNK).

Want a shorter version?

Just mark!...


Edit: Of course it's better to apply dots, yet people tend to be lazy and sometimes it's just wasted (e.g. mobs with very little HP).

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Even MNK can easily spread Demolish. And most mobs that have such little hp that they'll die before 6-9 seconds (time it takes for Demolish to surpass Snap Punch) come in groups large enough that you AOE them down, anyway.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

I actually really dislike macros like this. All it takes is to accidentally double-tap and it's gone, or if you lose aggro and provoke+shield lob a secondary target, suddenly that one's #1, etc.

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I had this issue when I ran a dungeon as a tank for the first time. I solved it by keeping two versions of Tomahawk/Shield Lob on my hot bar. One version is the regular one that's not attached to a macro, and one is the one attached to the macro. So when I'm numbering I toss out the one attached to the macro. If I have to grab aggro again I just toss out the regular Tomahawk/Shield Lob and the mobs stay numbered how I had them set up originally.

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Originally Posted by BazFamrit

Macroing mark with tomahawk/shield lob is a bad idea. Say you want to mark something else mid fight, you may have just wasted 120 tp. Might need that tp in long fights or to start the next set of adds quicker.

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Typically you only use the macro with mark 1. If you're fighting something and you decide to mark something else, you're probably not going to use mark 1, so you just assign it a different number and therefore aren't using Shield Lob/Tomahawk anyway. If you want to change that target to mark 1, you still don't have to use your marking macro; you just manually assign it to one. On PC you can right click on enemies to mark, so it's not as time consuming as everyone makes it out to be.

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Originally Posted by SummonerSenah

snip.

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I play on ps3 and hot bar space costs a lot. I have a 2 hot bar setup right now with everything setup ergonomically to increase my reaction time and limit errors. Adding in even a single mark macro to it would throw off the whole thing. My tomahawk is macrod with provoke. I spam buttons to compensate for latency and missed commands. Marks would be flashing on and off constantly and i would most likely fire off voke or tomahawk when i dont want to. Every button has a purpose for me and I need maximum utility out of every single slot. Marking is just not that big of a priority to merit a spot.

Marking is a band aid for poor hate control or poor target choices by DPS. Since I rarely have trouble keeping hate I usually only mark for bad DPS or I explain to them target priorities if I see them making mistakes. My point is that marking isn't quite as useful as everyone here is stating. Its good to know in the event you need it but most of the time not necessary.

Um, you usually mark enemies to kill them in that order (1,2,3...), to keep everyone's focus on a single target primarily, and to prevent chaos by not pulling from the tnk. It really helps to make the whole experience to be less messy. To mark is to place priority.

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Originally Posted by Grelvin

As a low lvl tank, marking is working out me.

I\\\\'ll still mark though, it\\\\'s almost 90pct for the bard/blm though. Those are the only 2 I really give a rip about knowing what they are attacking. Once a mob leaves the pile, it makes things more difficult for me.

Fortunately, I\\\\'ve had pretty good success with people following the marks.

I understand the low lvl perspective isn\\\\'t valued, but all the same, I see value in marking, and will continue to do it as long as I have room for the buttons to do so.

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I\\\\'ve been following this post and going back and forth on the subject. This is the 1st MMO I\\\\'ve ever heard of having to mark targets so I\\\\'ve been trying to figure out what the big deal is. To me, it seems like if you know how to play your class, you shouldn\\\\'t need someone to tell you who to go after and in what order. I have to say though, this seems to me to be the best reason.

Just my 2 cents.

Why? Why not?

It's a job that takes 3 seconds, and (assuming the DPS aren't derps, which I've never seen) reduces the chance of messy fights by like, 99.9%.

Don't assume everyone to be "good" especially in DF, use whatever means you have to reduce the failure rates. Same reason why people look for a 100% HQ rotation for crafting. Same reason why Careful Synthesis is better than Basic Synthesis. Same reason why people prefer to run anything with FC/LS/well known friends.

As stated in an above post, it's also not sustainable for melee DPS to drop DoTs and spam AoEs. AoE's are good only when there are above a certain number of mobs (above 3 I'd say), for all other cases, single target is faster, and the mobs don't die fast enough to let the duration of the entire debuff go on.

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Originally Posted by Bridgeburner

Because those aren't readable without manually clicking off to every target, which interferes with the ability to deliver skills on GCD to your primary target.

Also, your second graphic is actually showing the health bars of the enemies remaining on the field - not the threat. In the pic

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Those little markers to the LEFT of their HP is the enmity markers,

Oh and the reason for marking isnt just for enmity control, although thats usually the one thrown around most frequent, in cases of groups of 3-4 mobs (assuming tank isnt super geared) it tells the dps which to focus down, and by order of logic, mob dies, tank takes less damage, healer spams less, healer gets less enmity....and if the healer is poorly geared, healer wont oom as easily......
yes dots are effective, and may take down targets faster, but not all classes have easy to get to dots, and may have more soon with the same issue
green means little to no threat
yellow means medium
orange-red means alot of threat, danger of taking
flashing red means you got the HIGHEST threat

The more you know

Personally, I'd rather have targets marked as often as possible. In all my experience, Bane generates insane amounts of enmity throughout an entire group, and if I have no idea which target the tank is focusing on, I run the risk of getting their attention and dragging stuff away from the tank.

If you need a healer to explain to you why it's really super bad for you to lose aggro on something mid-fight, I'd assume you have bigger problems than not being able to make your party play the numbers game. Furthermore, the tank losing aggro is even worse for me because now I have to juggle healing multiple people, or even avoid incoming enemies that I have no really effective immediate counter to at all.

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Originally Posted by MPNZ

snip

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To add to this, I mark more often then not when there are distance magic using mobs, or close magic using mobs when Ive gotten the pack of mobs together.

Why? Because more often then not, be it melee or distance, DPS usually chose to attack the melee mobs first. While this makes sense for the last pull of WP (TBs, so you can open the door), otherwise it doesnt. Why take out the mobs with attacks your tank cant dodge or block last? Or who have frontal cone AoE prior to circle AoE (again example is in WP)? That also happens.

Ive played with highly experienced and end-game players who had never even considered magic mobs as priority unless they are very hard hitting (like in PS).

Almost a moot point when you have a party of i80+ AoE attacking beasts. But also a point of, "Oh. Never thought of that."

Food for thought.

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Originally Posted by AlrikRouge

Why? Because more often then not, be it melee or distance, DPS usually chose to attack the melee mobs first. While this makes sense for the last pull of WP (TBs, so you can open the door), otherwise it doesnt. Why take out the mobs with attacks your tank cant dodge or block last? Or who have frontal cone AoE prior to circle AoE (again example is in WP)? That also happens.

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Just to clarify, you can dodge magic. You can't parry and most likely can't block (I haven't tested block).

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Originally Posted by Vanwa

To me, it seems like if you know how to play your class, you shouldn\\\\'t need someone to tell you who to go after and in what order. I have to say though, this seems to me to be the best reason.

Just my 2 cents.

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Hi, you don't "have to" mark, but it may be useful. You may know your class, the dungeon, and what to do, but in DF the tank does not know that, you might know nothing, so if there's interest in kill order, it's better he marks. He also may have a different idea of what to kill first, and its good all DPS know where to concentrate attacks easily (then decide if AOE is best or when it is best with no risk of pulling aggro.) When there are several mobs packed in the same small space (or your visual line), it's easier also to click on the big number too than try to click on the mob name (a DPS who has not attacked yet will have no enemy list, and if he has attacked with non-AOE attacks, there will be mobs who are not on his enemy list.)

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Just to clarify, you can dodge magic. You can't parry and most likely can't block (I haven't tested block).

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Good call. Yeah, can't parry and can't block. Can dodge though. Or maybe can block, but I have yet to ever see a block on magic on my PLD. I've done some experimenting in WP on the floating guys and have yet to see it after too many runs to remember.

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Originally Posted by Langureion

So this thread is about bad tank player or marking? O_o;

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It can't be both?

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

I'm referring entirely to damage over time abilities. Yes, AoE is typically only efficient against 3 or more targets.

Let's use BRD and DRG as case studies.

BRD standard rotation:
Heavy (150) + bonus critical chance for Straight Shot = about 180 potency
Venomous Bite = 100 initial potency + (35 x 6 [ticks over 18 seconds]) = 305 potency
Windbite = 60 initial potency + (45 x 6 [ticks over 18 seconds]) = 330 potency

DRG options:
True (150) + Vorpal (200) + Full (330) = average 226 potency
Phlebotomize: 170 initial + (25 x 6 [ticks over 18 seconds]) = 330 potency

Damage over time is simply better damage per global cooldown.

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are you insane? you do understand that the 330 potency you are fapping to is delivered over 18 seconds. mob should be dead before that.


its fine to throw dots on other trash while focusing one at a time, but foolish to just spread dots around and sit there waiting for the pack to drop. also, you come off as quite the control freak, which is probably why your dps don't follow your orders. learn2people


this line gives it all away: "What's the most effective way to get DPS to play their role to fit this style?"

fucking do your job and stop trying to micro-manage everyone else.

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Originally Posted by matic

fucking do your job and stop trying to micro-manage everyone else.

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Uhm....you can get banned for this language in the forums. You should do your best to refrain from using it at all costs.


Off the record, I still can't stop laughing

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Originally Posted by matic

are you insane? you do understand that the 330 potency you are fapping to is delivered over 18 seconds. mob should be dead before that.

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Do you understand that it takes between 1/3 and 1/2 of that time to make those attacks more damaging than the alternatives, not the full 18 seconds?

And now, i know why i get a lot of commendations using my tanks on dungeons.

Mark? lost aggro? wtf

As warrior, start a pull, flash and overpower x3. You can go to take a coffee and the mobs still hitting you.

As paladin, start a pull, flash + skorn + flash, and spread halone combo between mobs and repeat using flash.

Spread dots is only viable on a few class, SMN and SCH(obviously), BLM(get proc thunder) and BRD(get proc bloodletter). The rest of class, focusing one mob or differents must die soon unless your dps is undergeared.

As blm, is a waste of time, cast a fire I and watch how the mob die and your spell is interrupted. Focusing one unique mob, you can explode your dps killing it.

As drg, put up your dots and buffs, and at final moment, when you can do a lot of damage over the target, he is gone.

Btw, there are theorycraft and you may not be a braindead, you must study your group, know theirs weakness and strenghts. If you see a tank don't use flash/overpower on theirs rotations, don't use aoe and change the objetive of your damage if you are getting enmity so fast.

Always mark targets. That way even if the DPS ignore them and attack a different mob it is their fault. But if you don't mark they can blame you for not marking.

Just mark your targets and stop being lazy. I do it every run, all the time. If you are running roulette and have too much to do as a tank to where you can't mark stuff, time to become a full-time BRD, dude. I'm gonna leave your math alone because just WOW.

It's an argument between three things, safety, speed, and stress. People don't necessarily like the stress of not knowing what mob you are attacking next. Also, people definitely don't like the stress of, "This tank isn't marking. Does he know what he's doing?" Having a pull-more-than-one-group-AOE-party will definitely tilt the encounter more towards speed/stress and it will be over faster assuming everything goes to plan. You have be far more alert. A strict pull-one-group-kill-one-mob-at-a-time strategy is very low stress and high safety. A focused mob dies relatively quickly vs an AOE'd mob. Every mob that dies is less damage for the healer to heal. Sometimes people just want to autopilot a dungeon. They may have come off of a hard fight on an alt class and just don't want to remain too alert. Or maybe they just want a relaxing run vs a fast run. As a tank, you dictate the pace. However, it is not a dictatorship. Try to find the pace everyone is happy with, and people will be happy with you.

P.S. I have found that you can tell when an encounter is being tanked well based on one factor, Chaos. Generally speaking, the more chaos that is going on, the less skilled/more inexperienced your tank is. A tank that has mastered a dungeon makes it seem very mundane by explaining nuances and conducting encounters in an orderly manner. Pharos Sirius is not the nightmare so many people make it out to be. Keep the chaos low and people will love it.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Do you understand that it takes between 1/3 and 1/2 of that time to make those attacks more damaging than the alternatives, not the full 18 seconds?

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I think a lot of people dont realize this. Most DoTs are better than a base potency of any attack after half its ticks. Monk's especially (since it doesnt have combo potency bonuses). Having played Bard, I know Bard's DoTs are among some of the best, and can trump many, if not all, Bard's attack in about 1/3 the ticks. This is not taking into consideration guaranteed damage and crits.

My general rule is: If the DoT can lst half its duration, its worth it

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

Marking targets doesn't mean "only damage this target". You can mark a target while still having the DPS dot the unmarked or the (2) and (3) targets or AoE the pack down.

The purpose of marking targets in 4-man dungeons is so that your two DPS don't completely split their non-DoT damage. It simply communicates to the team which mob you intend on building the most aggro on, so they can DPS accordingly. It doesn't say they can't use DoTs or AoE on the other targets.

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I fully agree with this sentiment. Marking helps ensure that whatever single focus damage they are going to do goes to the target I'm building the most aggro on, they can still AoE or DoT the mob 2 and 3, but if they're using a focus attack at a mob it should be at the one I'm using my non AOE hate generating abilities on.

I had the same issue with 4-man dungeon not to long ago. I was holding aggro but the healer insulted me and just went on about how I wasn't marking and looking through his characters he hasn't ever tanked before. none of the dps were complaining and I don't mark normally, but out of the countless dungeons I have run all the dps and healers just tell me to rush through it and hold aggro. just this once I got told to mark. So it's pretty interesting imho.

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Originally Posted by Bridgeburner

Freshly-edited Post 1:


170 + (25 x 6)
= 170 + (150)
= 320

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xD

I almost spit my coffee out on that one lol.

Are people getting worse at playing MMOS as time goes on? I mean having the option to mark sure for some encounters, but requiring it for trash mobs LOL, l2p noob...if I played tank I wouldn't mark mobs in general, the mob the tank is facing that's losing life, is the one you should be hitting.../tt will target the tanks target...I more or less laugh when in aPUG and the dps cried if the tank doesn't mark mobs, I mean so now a tanks job is to protect everyone, lead the party, and paint by numbers? while a dps job is to ....spam buttons LOL, I suppose I can see if they are writing macros associated with markings, but other than that, if for normal group content you cant function without the tank marking out mobs for you....maybe these aren't your type of games.

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Damage over time abilities (e.g. Fracture, Touch of Death, Venomous Bite) yield superior DPS, so it's ideal to apply every available DoT to every enemy (unless you're using AoE), at least once at the start of each pull. Marking targets and using only single-target combos yields inferior damage.

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Marking targets has nothing to do about damage, and everything about making tanking and healing easier. Just because they're marked doesn't mean you can't AoE or put up DoT's on secondary targets, it's used to mark the kill order, because using AoE abilities is resource intensive and not nearly as effective as single target killing in regards to tanking and healing.

It's much easier to heal when the amount of damage coming in lowers over time, and when 1 of 4 mobs dies the incoming damage drops by 25%. It's also easier to tank and heal when everyone is attacking the same target rather than having every mob attacking a different party member. Even great tanks can't hold threat on mobs if every DPS is attacking a different target. The AoE threat tools available for them just don't cut it when a DPS is going full out on a mob.

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Unless my fundamental understanding of numbers is wrong, marking and focusing one at a time is worse DPS.

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Again, it's not about DPS, it's about party cohesion and effectiveness. I don't care how much DPS you're putting out if peple are dying or it's a hectic pull every time because you can't hold threat due to everyone atacking different targets.

Marking the mob doesn't mean don't AoE or put up DoT's it means "kill them in this order."

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I've even explained how the maximizing of DoTs is superior damage and makes for a faster, easier run

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I'll say this one more time: marking targets does not stop people from using DoT's or AoE Stop being lazy, when everyone knows which mob to focus on, the groups runs smoother. And I have my doubts that your method yields runs that are any faster than one from a tank that marks a kill order. I'd actually believe the opposite, because when mobs are running everywhere and you can't focus on one target to kill and the healer is having to go into overdrive to keep everyone from dying, things go slower.

I did a LL dungeon on DF roulette last night with my i80+ PLD.

Despite marking the targets (which took a couple seconds at most), the SMN and ARC had other plans: SMN attack #1, ARC attack #1$2 (or focus on 2) and SMN had her summon attacking #3 (or a 3rd target if I hadn't bothered marketing a 3rd) RIGHT at the start of the battle through the end.

About halfway through the dungeon, I decided to stop contesting for aggro with the DPS Gone Wild (as it was provoke, shield lob, running around crap) let the ARC deal with the mob (who died), and finally the DPS focused on a target until it was dead. DoTing all mobs wasn't the problem either. It was expecting me as the tank to deal with them doing what they want when they want. 6 mobs, lower level, no real AoEs? All but healer level synced. I had no Shield Oath.

Mind you, no one said anything in the run other than a greeting.

Props to the healer though for dealing with it and us not wiping once.

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Are people getting worse at playing MMOS as time goes on? I mean having the option to mark sure for some encounters, but requiring it for trash mobs LOL, l2p noob...if I played tank I wouldn't mark mobs in general, the mob the tank is facing that's losing life, is the one you should be hitting.../

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Doesn't work quite that way in this game due to how healing threat works, PLD tanks especially have to switch between the mobs to use their threat generating attacks to ensure all mobs stick to the tank rather than have one rush to the healer.

In many MMO's your statement is true, FFXIV forces tanks to actually work for their threat because everyone can generate a ton f it.

To me it does get frustrating, but only because I'm used to not marking. I sometimes mark it if people request it, but more often than not DPS usually knows to attack what I'm mainly attacking. However, I also do know how to maintain crowd control at level 47+ (could be earlier but can't remember), so DPS should be able to attack whatever they choose in the end.

However, if people don't know the dungeon (and I ask them this first), I will mark the targets from most important to least important to take down. Marking, for me, is all situational based.

This is from another thread about tanking looking intimidating: (I made the bold and italics)

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Originally Posted by Ed_N_Ants

You honestly need to learn the role... I personally as a dps and healer pull mobs in lower dungeons to see how the tank handles agro... If they can get it back from me I know they know what there doing and say nothing... If they don't get it back from me I educate them on what needs to be done... Ask your dps if they can pull the mobs cause you want to test your skills... This game and its jobs are learning experiences only... As long as you can hold agro thats 95% of your job the other 5% is dodging aoe's and knowing where to tank the enemy at, which can easily be achieved by telling a group your a new tank to the trial/dungeon... Most people will help you out...

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This seems like an off-hand comment and remark, and the intention is actually good, but I disagree with it and the methodology in full.

By the logic, this person is saying that they will do the tank's job and see if the tank can take it back - or do something wrong and see if the tank will fix it. Using the same example but reversed, an experienced tank should then stay in AoEs and not dodge magic attacks that can be dodged, or not use CDs that should be used, to see if the healer can keep him healed.

This is also a reason I mark targets: the party is a team when going into a zone - dungeon or raid. Tank is like the QB, calls the play, and everyone goes at it in a coordinated effort. You target the mobs for ease of efficiency in knowing which one to focus on.

As an healer marks make it easier or "possible" to throw in damage or CC. As a DPS having marks make it quicker to focus or to not. As a tank it makes it way easier to control the enmity. Tank doesn't have to be the one to mark everything, just put a Shield Lob/Tomahawk macroed with marks and you're done. It's not like you can't play markless but they help a lot, especially with players you doesn't know so do it :)

I'm a lazy tank, I have a macro that marks the kill target and throws Tomahawk. I then might use it again if I want to control the flow of DPS I find this is much smoother then not marking. I don't do more than a single mark but it lets the others know what i will be focusing my enmity on. This also helps for CC if they so choose as they can predict where I will be placing the majority of my attacks.

Yuri, you are forgetting one very important thing that can make marking targets (and focusing on one target at a time) better.

If there are 4+ trash mobs alive during the pull, the healer has to be continiously healing the tank.
If there are 3 trash mobs alive, the healer mostly has to heal, but can throw up an aero or bio.
If there are only 2 trash mobs alive, the healer only needs to throw out a heal every 2 or 3 global cooldowns.
If there is only 1 mob left, the healer does not need to heal at all anymore, and they can use all their DoTs and some ruins or throw out multiple stones on the last enemy standing.

Therefore, killing things in order, while, giving a slight loss of DPS from certain classes not using their DoTs, gives the healer more of a chance to attack things, which will easily make up for the DPS you missed out on.

Of course, this relies on your healer being good, not one of the lazy kind that just stands around and does nothing between heals.

Only bad dps need to have trash order marked. It's not hard to watch the health bars.

I mark with [2] and [3] only before hard pulls with random group (i.e. roulette), such as 3 Aevises in Stone Vigil.
Other than that, macroed [1]+Shield Lob is sufficient, tank can just switch mark when needed.

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Originally Posted by BazFamrit

Agreed. But marking is also a fix for the problem of bad DPS. Sometimes you have to mark mid fight for spawns if its a bomb for instance. The DPS should know to take it out first but sometimes they need a bit of guidance.

Like I said, DPS should be paying attention to which mob was attacked first and which has lowest HP and kill in that order. Its just common sense. So I refrain from marking unless its necessary.

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If a DPS is bad I just have them booted problem fixed you fail at your simple task then why should I waste my time with you. Its don't suck and waste my time and if people don't want to boot the bad DPS I just ask them to boot me ill get a new group almost instantly not going to bother dealing with people who cant do there jobs

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

Am I missing something here? Going through Roulette, I've encountered many DPS who become very frustrated when I don't mark targets. This is especially annoying when they don't use AoE when we pull 3 or more targets, and focus down one at a time (subsequently risking pulling enmity).

Damage over time abilities (e.g. Fracture, Touch of Death, Venomous Bite) yield superior DPS, so it's ideal to apply every available DoT to every enemy (unless you're using AoE), at least once at the start of each pull. Marking targets and using only single-target combos yields inferior damage.

Of course, as the pull progresses, re-applying the DoTs may not always be the best idea (since DoTs usually take between 9-18 seconds to achieve efficiency).

SNIPPED

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As a full 90 DRG, most mobs when single targeted die quickly on dungeons. Since my dots won't reach its full effect by focusing on single-target, its a waste to include them on my single-target rotation. What I do instead is do Impulse Drive -> Disembowel on my main target, but then drop Chaos Trust DOT on a 2nd target. I believe this is what you're referring to.

That said, isn't this more reason to use Marks than not? If you are pulling 3-4 mobs at once and your party is out-leveling the mobs, then you Mark the following:

Mark 1 - Single target
Mark 2 - DoTs
Mark 3 - Next target

By the time the DPS finishes 1, then #2 should be pretty much dead from the DoTs. DPS then finishes it up and drops the next set of DoT on the 4th mob, while proceeding to Single-target Mark #3.

The fact is, using marks can only help your group be more organized and takes away the guessing game from the DPS on which mob the tank is building hate first. There really is no reason not to use it.

If you get a few runs where DPS don't follow marks, that shouldn't discourage you from ever using them. I think most DPS (and healers) appreciate when tanks mark.

Dang, didn't realize marking was so difficult. I have marks 1-5 on a disabled hotbar hotkeyd to alt 1-5 takes and me a second to mark whatever targets. Whats the big deal? I mean, honestly it doesn't really matter anyways I guess, no reason to rant on the forums about. You could be spending all this energy marking right now!