DPS at End Game

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Originally Posted by Seobit

SMN is the strongest most consistent dps class in the game. I've ran with multiple static groups that all have turn 5 on farm, with everyone full i90 with allagan weapons. I don't make assumptions based on bad players I run into on party finder.

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I have to agree SMN is the most consistent dps atm. Monk and Smn are easily the highest single target dps, Drgs fall short even with the new buffs and regardless of the encounter.

Smn's have great burst, high sustained dps, good AoE potential, and utility.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

2.1 needs burst, SMN do nothing, they have to make the other party burst for them. And worse off, some of them you don't want any stay shots that smn are so prone to doing (the number of smns touching the things they're not suppose to touch is ridiculous).

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Really? Do tell.

You say they need burst on Titan Ex right? Bane > fester while DoTing 2nd gaol.

You say they need burst on Ifrit Ex right? They multidot ahead of the group on nails.

You say they need burst on conflag? Bane > fester.

You say they need burst on Garuda Ex? Incorrect statement: Garuda Ex doesn't require burst. OT takes spiny away from group and bane. This is what allows WHMs and BLMs to holy/flare as well: don't think you'll get away with saying this alters party mechanics by having a SMN. ^^

Hm I think we covered 2.1 (and even some 2.0).

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

all smn like to say, "we have great 1minute burst". It's not 1minute "burst", it's 10 second burst you need. They don't have it. They make others do their part of the work.

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1 minute burst is all you need. Short conflags are up after a minute which is the only valid point you'd ever hope to make with this statement.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

And I exclude coil gears. coil is too random, and impossible to predict the combinations of gears people wear. CT gears is generally just a weaken version of Coil gears anyway, which is why the crimson set has upped the blm damage in general. Same with mnk and drg. You might as well start putting in ex weapons and i95 weapons, and then what? ACC vs non ACC combination. That's ridiculous, what acc for what content, for what combination of food? Potions, etc? Impossible to argue.

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Not really. I run with a static that has a SMN. I get to see how I fair against him every week. I'm guessing you don't play with a SMN often.

Crimson is also for SMN as well.

That's the point you don't understand: we are talking about BiS comparisons. SMN destroys most jobs in BiS and even prior to BiS. It's obvious that you use pure DPS gear instead of ACC gear for extreme primals.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Smn beating a blm? yes, blm beating a smn, yea. blm beating a mnk yea, mnk beating a drg, sure, drg beating a mnk, yup. It's all Content.

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I'm glad you acknowledge that SMNs outperform other jobs which implies their damage is fine. DRG beating MNK? No. BLM beating MNK? No.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

2.1 smn just don't have it, and with their nerf, they have it even less, and current stats, even Lessss....!!! and drg can beat mnks pretty easily on 2.1 content. They are not shrimps anymore, the content really benifits them, just like it benefits melees.

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I wonder if we play the same game. ^^

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

To get into specifics smn regularly screw up moogle, regularly screw up garuda big time, and by damn i hate having a smn in titan ex omg how "do not kill until lanside" annoyance. ifrit is fine since range is so nice on it.

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Oh we are considering story content like Moogle? No, we are considering Twintania and extremes. This thread is titled DPS at endgame. Moogle is not endgame.

You just described bad SMNs that you play with and generalized this interaction to the rest of the class. That is a horrible thing to do.

I dislike bad DRGs too. You know? The ones who break the 2nd gaol early and the healer gets landslided off because they didn't realize the ranged already had the back gaol covered.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Smn is just another range class, they are parsing nowhere near the much more consistent mnk/drg/brd and they're not even that great compared to a good blm. They could be 18% in one round and 10% another round. at least with DoW you know what you're getting and phase repeats are easy to iron down.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

And you obviously haven't been parsing drg in 2.1 They are mean versatile machines. Better the mnks in most of 2.1 contents, when they can optimize.

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I have done many extremes with PUG DRGs. They have some of the lowest DPS in 2.1.

Know what we use them for in my FC group? Upping our BRD's damage on turn 2. Then the DRG switches back to MNK and destroys everyone else. He has both zeniths, Allagan weapons, holy lance, and full i90 for both jobs. Wonder why he decides to play MNK instead of DRG even on Titan Ex..hmm.

lol I find it hilarious that this guy thinks SMN is poor damage. I've been playing SMN for a day now, in patchwork gear (some allagan/myth jewelry from BLM, but still wearing AF1 robe and i55 book) and I'm stunned at how much damage it can put out on a single target. And this is with 15/15 int/mnd, a junk weapon and I'm not even very good at SMN. o_o

SMN is very strong even after the nerfs. Pre-2.1 they were pretty much on the same gamebreaking level as bards.

I'll give my opinions on the DPS classes I have level 50 experience with first:

MNK seems to kick out more DPS than most other classes, if done correctly. It's rather simple once you get the hang of it and very flexible; you have great survivability, mobility and utility. The only downside, which they share with DRG, is there are many melee unfriendly mechanics in this game, which ranged can completely ignore.

SMN do great damage over time and for single targets and groups they're one of the best; outstanding for high mobility encounters. Their burst damage is their only weakness however, which is extremely lack-luster in comparison with other DPS classes. As a whole, I find SMN to be rather boring, but that's just my opinion.

BLM is huge fun. I've been playing this one a lot lately and the numbers you can pull with a BLM are unmatched. If I had to sum them up in one word though, it would definately be inconsistent; their damage is inconsistent, their burst damage is inconsistent and their effectiveness on any given encounter is inconsistent. Depending on how often you pray to the RNG gods is really all that matters here; you can go from seeing multiple procs of Thundercloud and Firestarter, where you destroy all the other DPS and send your tank into panic mode - to not seeing a single proc in multiple rotations and being the most average DPS ever.

Don't get me wrong about BLM; I love it to bits and find it to be one of the most fun classes about, but you may get frustrated when confronted by high mobility encounters or unlucky RNG.

As for the other DPS, I don't have them at 50, though I run a Free Company and all of our raiding runs, so understanding the other classes is important. I'll give my outside perspective on the other two:

DRG don't seem too far removed from MNK. They both have to dodge the same mechanics and both have rear and flank combo rotations. As a party leader, I sometimes ask members to switch to DRG, so our BRD can take advantage of their 10% piercing debuff.

BRD are what I would call a safe bet. You could have an entire party of BRD and be fine. Though their potential damage is lower than all the other DPS classes, more often than not they will push higher numbers, due to their 100% uptime, which no other DPS class can boast. On top of their consistent and high mobility DPS; they also have two things that are extremely useful at end-game; silence and Mage's Ballad.

Conclusion; since Darklight and a Relic weapon will make you viable for Turns 1-3 and EX Primals, there really isn't any reason why you cannot gear them all and play them all. If you want to focus, given your aim was to find a consistent DPS; I'd suggest BRD. There really isn't any reason why you can't gear one of them in Mythology and Allagan gear, and the other in Crystal Tower gear however. Like a lot of people have been saying here; just play what feels fun to you.

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Originally Posted by Hitome

I have done many extremes with PUG DRGs. They have some of the lowest DPS in 2.1.

Know what we use them for in my FC group? Upping our BRD's damage on turn 2. Then the DRG switches back to MNK and destroys everyone else. He has both zeniths, Allagan weapons, holy lance, and full i90 for both jobs. Wonder why he decides to play MNK instead of DRG even on Titan Ex..hmm.

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MNK is top dog in STDPS. DRG do OK, but they're not as good as MNK and still have rubbish AoE (everyone telling you about Doom Spike spam is full of crap; Doom Spike has such trash range it's almost impossible to use effectively on more than two or three targets). If you have both jobs geared equally, it's hard to justify taking DRG in most situations from an optimization standpoint. People talk about MNK being more positional, but it's DRG that's more punishing. MNK gets a slight penalty when he whiffs on the angle, but when Titan repeatedly spins in circles because he thought he saw a tail or something, DRG DPS goes down the tubes. DRG gets a 100-potency attack, loses a buff, and has to try again, essentially costing you 200+ potency per miss. MNK loses 40 and gets right on with punching. Every mediocre MNK is as effective as the very best DRG due to the limited feasibility of maintaining top DRG DPS and the naturally higher MNK DPS.

In terms of ST DPS (v. dummies/Atomos), the 2.1 rolls are MNK > DRG > SMN > BLM > BRD. In terms of AoE DPS, it's BLM > SMN > BRD > DRG > MNK. If I had to say something naturally preferred about one job or another, DRG still doesn't really justify its existence, but it's not bad enough that people are actively kicking it out out parties. In 2.0, it was a gimp of a job, nevermind the general dislike of MDPS. SMN is still kinda better unless the target is a total punching bag (like CT encounters), but DRG can at least carry its weight now.

Anyway, OP should do BRD if he wants a party, MNK if he's OK waiting an hour or two, and DRG if he wants half of PUGs to insult him for playing that job and the other half to just not invite him in the first place.

The return of lolDRG.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

The return of lolDRG.

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It never left.

Whatever you enjoy playing most, all are needed so yeah =p

I have bard w/relic at ilvl 65ish on my main and DRG ilvl 69ish (some onion gear and dl, no relic. Super easy to raise ilvl now) on my alt. Bard is great to have in any party, can deal good damage with good luck on DoT crits (with bloodletter) while refreshing MP or regaining TP for the party. DRG has good single target damage and can apply 3 DoTs and a debuff that increases piercing damage. Monk probably has the best single target damage, but heavily relies on positioning for damage.

As for not seeing a lot of monks, I think it's because people would rather be stabbing something rather than punching. They also have to move around the most of the three, which can be a nuisance to some.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

DRG do OK, but they're not as good as MNK and still have rubbish AoE (everyone telling you about Doom Spike spam is full of crap; Doom Spike has such trash range it's almost impossible to use effectively on more than two or three targets).

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Been DRG for a while now and Doom Spike is a good AoE on 3+ situations with Internal Release and B4B. Usually 500-800 damage per spike. Would be a lot higher if it were possible to Disembowel all the targets. It's actually got a pretty long range, just not much width, so yes positional requirements leave more to be desired.. But our ST damage is so much better, not gonna burn mobs with Doom Spike, I use it as more of a finisher, move on to next target and let the AoE eat the weaker ones.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Been DRG for a while now and Doom Spike is a good AoE on 3+ situations with Internal Release and B4B. Usually 500-800 damage per spike. Would be a lot higher if it were possible to Disembowel all the targets. It's actually got a pretty long range, just not much width, so yes positional requirements leave more to be desired.. But our ST damage is so much better, not gonna burn mobs with Doom Spike, I use it as more of a finisher, move on to next target and let the AoE eat the weaker ones.

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I think the most I've ever hit with it is 5/9 enemies, meaning I should have used Ring of Thorns. Since enemies can't occupy the same space, they very rarely line up. Doesn't seem to have a target limit that I can tell, but the area is too small to get enemies at all much of the time (maybe 1m across, 5m long). Even times when it obviously should hit (e.g. bombs at KB), it often doesn't. 160 TP also empties your pool in a hurry. In terms of abilities I almost never use, Doom Spike is atop them. Only time I really consider it is like you said -- when the enemy might not be alive to eat the hit and there's something nearby. Even then, I'd rather just do HT->RoT and then move into CT combo on next mob, reducing potential DoT downtime. There are so many reasons not to use it that I find it very difficult to justify including it in theorycraft.

Look at it this way:
Dragoons get bad ass gear. Get bad ass jump attacks. And do great damage.

Bards get the ugliest gear in game. You get pink AF+1 gear and candy cane flavored Crystal Tower gear. And when you are forced to play a song, your damage drops like a rock. weak!

Monks get the honor of dressing up as bananas. Imagine bananas in pajamas flinging their fists and feet at monsters. While cool, it's also very odd. Still, better then Bards. Apparently they are fun to play, but lets be honest, fist weapons are boring and not very exciting to begin with.

Go Dragoon and thank me later. ;)

Seeing all these posts about lolDRG really sucks. DRGs have amazing dps but i have yet to find another DRG who can pull really good numbers. in my FC i can out dps everyone including MNK with Allagan wep and i cant speak for SMN with allagan as his dps is estimated. Everytime i see a DRG more geared than i, I always destroy them in DPS which leads me to believe people arent optimizing their dps and DRG and using everything to their disposal. DRGs are a force to be reckoned with, unfortunatley i havent seen one tap into that force.

BRD as the game is will always be the best DD sadly (its ironic because they are always know as the great support buff the party job). The fact that more and more of the content involves so much movement alone makes them superior. MNK/DRG loose loads of dps when they have to move away from the target, or the target doesnt stay in position, or they are moved at all because we cant finish a combo to get our top damage. BRD can be anywhere and keep slapping away, at mildly lower damage, but they dont have to do combos, are not relying on the enemy position and dont have to "get off" the enemy at points to dodge or w/e. They also have good debuffs along with single and multi target skills and being the only job with real group buffs making them almost essential for any group. The ONLY downfall i can think of is not having the damage LB.

Stuff will likely onlt be more move/dodgy as this seems to be the only way to make the game hard it seems. I just cant imagine how it will be when musketeer comes (if they are DPS as we all expect) those 2 will just flat out be the prime way to do stuff.

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Originally Posted by Shikoba

Look at it this way:
Dragoons get bad ass gear. Get bad ass jump attacks. And do great damage.

Bards get the ugliest gear in game. You get pink AF+1 gear and candy cane flavored Crystal Tower gear. And when you are forced to play a song, your damage drops like a rock. weak!

Monks get the honor of dressing up as bananas. Imagine bananas in pajamas flinging their fists and feet at monsters. While cool, it's also very odd. Still, better then Bards. Apparently they are fun to play, but lets be honest, fist weapons are boring and not very exciting to begin with.

Go Dragoon and thank me later. ;)

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I get to strap moogles to my fists and hit things with them. When you get to be that awesome back back and talk.

"lolDRG"
"DRG DPS sucks"

You've clearly never met a good DRG, git gud.

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Originally Posted by Rochetm

I get to strap moogles to my fists and hit things with them. When you get to be that awesome back back and talk.

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http://images.doctissimo.fr/1/humour...rrect-tns0.png

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Originally Posted by Ayasee

"lolDRG"
"DRG DPS sucks"

You've clearly never met a good DRG, git gud.

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.............

loldrg

99.99% guaranteed I'd destroy everyone's DPS in this thread.

110% guaranteed I'd also poop on yours.