Titan Extreme mode - no melee allowed. Thx SE.

As promised, 0 death, 0 plume hit, 0 bomb hit, 313 ping from Australia and no Foe Titan kill DPS:

http://i.imgur.com/h8LQvzZ.jpg

Fugitive OP ^^, he is my Coil bard. No he did not get jailed much, yes I got jailed multiple times with Shoryu.

In any case, I really don't care what you say Hitome, your probably going to find a way to make sure I look like a baddie, but whatever ^^. Have fun + GL.


Edit: proof I'm in Australia, taken this morning at my fiancée place:

http://i.imgur.com/F3XGDGL.jpg

So you did Titan Ex, didn't have foe requiem the entire time, and had the highest DPS (something you seem to emphasize over overall damage) yet BLMs are somehow bad for this fight. Here, let's fix this for you:

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Originally Posted by NeoAmon

MNKS < SMN < DRG < BARD < BLM when it comes to DPS if all are equally geared and skilled against Titan Ex. This is just a stupid group that don't count for much. Heck, fastest Titan Ex kill I ever had, pug one shotted had a MNK and DRG doing crazy dmg.

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Thanks for doing the leg work. Grats on your earring.

How can a bard even get 300 dps? even on a dummy? I think whatever parser you are using is calculating things differently than mine.

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Originally Posted by NeonC

snip

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Finally someone have noticed. I was dragging this on purpose too see how long Hitome and others going to take to realise how worthless the screen shot he posted and I followed with the same exact thing just to see where this is going.

Logrep live recorder"Real time Attack analyze", which is what Hitome posted in this thread and I followed and posted the exact same parser using the exact same function is MAX DPS not SUSTAINED DPS.

Here let me make this even easier:

Sustained DPS: Avg DPS through out the whole fight, it goes up down and directly get affected by your actions, such as player skills and death.

Max DPS: Max DPS is the highest DPS reached at any point in the fight. So if someone pops all their cds and for a moment reached 300+ DPS, it will be their maximum DPS and it won't go down or get affected by anything since it is just meant to represent the maximum amount of DPS reached at a certain point in the fight.

Hitome, If you want to know your real Sustained DPS, use log rep analysing function after the fight or FF XIV app (Much better parser). You will see for yourself why I'm still standing by the chain I posted for Titan and only Titan.

Edit: When it come to MAX DPS, BLM will always win, ALWAYS. This is due to buffed out double flares hitting multiple targets, so for a moment it can reach up to 550+ and that will be recorded as the maximum DPS BLM did, never goes down even if he sit on his ass afterwards. Sustained DPS however, will take those double falres and add maybe 1-5 DPS points maximum to the avg.

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Originally Posted by NeoAmon

Hitome, If you want to know your real Sustained DPS, use log rep analysing function after the fight or FF XIV app (Much better parser). You will see for yourself why I'm still standing by the chain I posted for Titan and only Titan.

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I already do. Why do you think I am only concerned about overall damage done (hence, why I outparsed you on Ifrit) using the real-time analysis tool opposed to a meaningless figure like max DPS that you seem to harp on?

Why is your chain like this:

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Originally Posted by NeoAmon

MNKS > SMN > DRG > BARD > BLM

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when the DRG only did 650 more damage than you when he is a MELEE who is supposedly superior in every way shape and form on this fight (650 damage is less than one fire 1 cast) and the BRD ran circles around both of you by doing 20k+ more damage overall?

Do I really need to explain why your chain is full of garbage yet again? According to your own parse, it should now read:

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Originally Posted by NeoAmon

BRD >>>> everyone

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yet you have BRD labeled as 2nd to last.

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Originally Posted by NyneAlexander

because your "greater than" chain is false.

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Originally Posted by NeoAmon

Nope it is not ^^. but here's a parse that I did that disproves it for you

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I'm so glad we have resoled this issue.

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Originally Posted by Hitome

Snip

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Dude, it is what you posted! You are the one who posted max dps screen shot and did not post sustained dps which is what I'm talking about the whole time :(.

My chain is based on Sustained DPS, not total damage and not max dps :(. <<< why is this part so hard to understand?

As for the bard dancing around us in Titan EM? Heck I have always seen him do that in Titan EM, nothing new. It is a fight he rules, specially with a DRG in party. In Coil, T4 & T5 are fights I absolutely without question destroy him in sustained DPS, Max DPS and Total damage done. Not just him every other DPS job including SMN.

Just note this, I have never said BLM is garbage in Titan EM, I only meant to say when it comes to sustained DPS in this fight we are not the highest if everyone is equally skilled and geared.

Edit: In any case, I take back my chain. Total damage done should have said everything you wanted to say, and I do understand it. Just wish you have communicated it better.

The dragoon is boosting the BRD's dps with disembowel (just as the BRD should, but didn't boost the BLM's dps with Foe's) -- Titan doesn't have a single mechanic to force you off of a target except for gaoling and jumping -- these two mechanics effect all dps equally except for monks who will lose GL3

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Originally Posted by Maye

The dragoon is boosting the BRD's dps with disembowel (just as the BRD should, but didn't boost the BLM's dps with Foe's) -- Titan doesn't have a single mechanic to force you off of a target except for gaoling and jumping -- these two mechanics effect all dps equally except for monks who will lose GL3

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Thank you :).

Edit: Just a note about not getting Foe, I'm forbidden from having it unless I beg for it in TS and call him "My Savior" :(.

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Originally Posted by NeoAmon

Thank you :).

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I mean I disagree with your chain a little bit and would put like SMN > DRG > BRD > MNK > BLM for "average dps" throughout the fight. I think it really messes with monks, but I also haven't played with a fantastic/over geared MNK while I play regularly with a fantastic dragoon and two stellar bards. All of the classes do plenty of damage and contribute greatly to the fight. There's no reason a 4 BLM dps squad couldn't clear it.

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Originally Posted by Maye

I mean I disagree with your chain a little bit and would put like SMN > DRG > BRD > MNK > BLM for "average dps" throughout the fight. I think it really messes with monks, but I also haven't played with a fantastic/over geared MNK while I play regularly with a fantastic dragoon and two stellar bards. All of the classes do plenty of damage and contribute greatly to the fight. There's no reason a 4 BLM dps squad couldn't clear it.

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Agreed.

See Hitome, Maye did not harass, did not make assumption, polite & civil. All I got from you is a headache when it could have been resolved in one post.

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Originally Posted by NeoAmon

Thank you :).

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I will translate for you:

Your BRD should be using foe requiem to boost your damage so that the gap between his and yours isn't so large.

No single DPS class is more affected than another besides MNK (which I don't disagree with).

I have never focused on max DPS. The screenshot I posted came with three figures: max DPS (meaningless), instantaneous DPS (0 because the fight was over), and overall damage. Which figure have I mentioned this entire post? Overall damage done. Which have you focused on?

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Originally Posted by NeoAmon

Ifrit EM, I died twice in this kill yet still managed better DPS than you :).

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All of this has already been discussed. In fact, I'm pretty sure I provided an explanation on DPS to you. Ever play a mage in another MMO where you have 1 or no DoTs? DPS alone does not tell the entire story in this case.

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Originally Posted by Hitome

Do you understand how DPS works? It's called damage per second. If a BLM is currently not casting anything on a boss fight and a DoT is not on the boss, they are not doing any DPS. This is common amongst casters in other MMOs which is why people often disregard DPS all together and, instead, focus on overall damage.

So not only did I do 13k more damage to you (again, something you've neglected), but I also didn't die twice. You claim to be a better BLM but the facts are right there for you: I do more overall damage, didn't die once during the same fight (where you died twice), and have all my cross class abilities.

All your DPS reading tells me is that you had thunder on the boss the entire time which, funny enough, probably resulted in your deaths. Do you understand how poor DPS is as a measurement for damage dealing casters with 1 DoT? Probably not.

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Originally Posted by Hitome

Overall damage tells the bigger picture. As you can see, the SMN had lower DPS than I did but still did more overall damage than both myself and the MNK. Would you say SMN is worthless as well? No, because he did the most overall damage. His actual DPS is 339 with his pet. Not surprising because the pet attacks non-stop and SMN DoTs are on the boss constantly (as well as multiple nails on that phase).

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Originally Posted by Hitome

1) You claim that BLM damage is poor on movement intensive fights like Titan and Ifrit yet provide evidence, along with mine, to contradict your own statement.

2) You claim to be a better BLM than myself yet do 13k less damage in the same fight because you died twice. You know how much a dead DPS does in terms of damage, right?

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Originally Posted by Hitome

You could call this a checkmate of sorts: if you post a parse with you doing respectable DPS on Titan Ex, you will contradict every point you've made in this thread. If you post a parse with you doing poor DPS while I post a parse with high DPS, your position as the less skilled BLM will be set in stone. Wh

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You opted to provide data about BLM on Titan out of pride, discrediting your claim that BLM is at the bottom of your chain with BRD as second to last.

You would not be in this mess if you had not made such a poor claim and then discredited said claim yourself.

By the way, if you're talking about total damage dealt, there are only so many hitpoints in a given fight. I can 3 man the first boss of WP with nothing but Blizzard 1 and do more total damage than burning it down w/a bard friend singing foe requiem blowing all my cooldowns.

I mean really though, how can you even compare single parses from a fight where RNG can play such a major role in your damage dealt? Not including the normal RNG from crits and damage ranges and firestarter/thundercloud, there's also a random number of gaols(with varying impact based on how quickly you are broken out), gaols that die mid cast depending on your dps's RNG, your OT might angle landslides away from you based on where he stands, etc etc. It's not especially useful to compare exactly 1 parse each.

Thankfully I'm not trying to prove that two parses can be compared but, rather, that BLM does just fine on movement-intensive fights like Titan/Ifrit Ex.

That was the only reason I'd post a parse. The rest is just a nice way of getting NeoAmon to provide me with free data to support my point. It's also kind of hard for him to back up a statement like "I'm a superior BLM" when he dies twice on a fight where death to DPS isn't something you should experience (much less twice) and lacks one major cross class ability for BLMs.

The very first post in this thread actually addressed some of your concerns that you've already mentioned:

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Originally Posted by Hitome

I have no issues with Titan Ex on BLM and parse the same as just about everyone else outside of SMNs since no one has 100% uptime. I'd always bring a BLM to Titan, though, because they are pretty good at sustaining themselves with ward and wall plus their burst on gaols is pretty nice.

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Namely, DPS up-time being relatively equal so there is no real need to state that certain DPS jobs exceed others on this fight based on incorrect perception of 'up-time'.

Just take a look at the first page: people claiming BLM is useless on Titan or does significantly less damage (along with SMN) or that melee are somehow top-notch damage dealers on this fight, exceeding other classes by substantial amounts of damage.

Neither of the three parses posted supports any of those misinformed opinions.

Also, if you are wondering how MNKs do, my parse has Pain Domain as our MNK I believe. They do quite well..then again, he does have Allagan weapon.

I can't say I really followed the argument. Honestly I think the fight is a little obnoxious to play on BLM but not crippling, I would say the difference in DPS has less to do with the fight itself and more to do with the differences between BLM and other classes on target dummies. (iirc it usually looks like MNK > SMN = DRG > BLM > BRD after the patch) -- Whether it's an uptime difference or not BLM single target damage is on the low side (although burst and aoe is still very high) -- that said I don't think BLM is terribly weak or anything, that's just how it is.

The only two I can confirm on a consistent basis is MNK post-patch. I have one in my group as does our 2nd group for coil. Again, they both have the Allagan weapon and top notch gear. Today doing random parses of HMs, he was always ahead of both the SMN (Allagan) and myself on all but Garuda which is just inflated AoE DPS. On Twin, both MNKs out parse the SMN (Allagan), BRD (Allagan), and I and have done so on many different occasions but not to the degree that you are suggesting.

If the difference in damage was always consistently great (>10k), I'd have to agree. After parsing multiple compositions post patch, we are all relatively within each others' ranges on any given fight (5k or less). With the addition of staggered LB building as a result of stacking classes, I see no reason to rank DPS roles if they all perform well within each others' ranges on any given fight. It leads to the opinions that you will see on the first page of this thread which are often not backed by facts or studies but by personal preference or misguided notions.

There's also the fact that I don't have the BiS gear and I'm parsing against people who do or, at the very least, have the substantial damage upgrade through the weapon. If my BLM still parses within acceptable range of Allagan-weapon users in full i90 BiS gear (or near BiS), I can only imagine what a BLM with BiS gear + the Allagan weapon can do.

Basically: not enough data, too much speculation. Leads to misguided notions like the OP's observance of anti-melee behavior on Garuda and the recent anti-caster observance on Titan.

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Originally Posted by Hitome

You opted to provide data about BLM on Titan out of pride, discrediting your claim that BLM is at the bottom of your chain with BRD as second to last.

You would not be in this mess if you had not made such a poor claim and then discredited said claim yourself.

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You did not leave me much options did you? From the get go you were rude & disrespectful. You even went through the trouble to find which date did Fugitive kill Twintania, posted it then you realised how stupid that was to add to your argument and removed it.

If you started your counter argument with a bit of civility and did not turn it to a piss fight, I would have been able to understand what you wanted to say about the total damage and DPS. Yet all I got, is "lel you are a baddie, I'm better, you suck, here is every post you ever made spined around like fox news to suit my needs."

You even used my own honesty against me lol. I could have went back did Ifrit perfectly with 0 death, like how I normally do it and recorded the total damage. You did not even consider how I died in Ifrit and just used it as "lel he died, he is so bad". FYI, it was a pug with new players to the fight, I will let you imagine what happens when a healer deals with searing wind for the first few times and send DD flying while trying to doge euraption.

Come on, be a bit fair, you think someone who can dodge every mechanic presented in Titan EM and Twintania will have trouble with stupid Ifirt?

I'm tired of this conversation -_-. Honestly, I gained nothing from it nor do I think you gained anything from it. Heck, reading everything from the start shows me how stupid the entire conversation was.

Here is the deal, from now on I won't rank any job, I will stick to the facts and total damage done. I won't even bother looking at DPS, useless metric for a BLM.

One Titan Ex group out of thousands where the Bard leading the group wants all casters to give Foe Requiem to and the OP thinks that melee is restricted from Titan Ex?

1 melee dps is perfectly fine on Titan.. 2 gets a bit messy on the adds though is is managable.

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Originally Posted by NeoAmon

You did not leave me much options did you? From the get go you were rude & disrespectful.

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NeoAmon, if you wish to be shown respect and civility, demonstrate that you can show respect and civility in return:

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Originally Posted by NyneAlexander

Nope. Its people that know how to play their class and know the fight > people that don't.

I spent all weekend trying to parse myself in titan EX on BLM to keep up with drg/mnk. I can do it pretty reliably now. 220-ish dps sustained.

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Originally Posted by NeoAmon

Soz, which part of "If all are equally geared and skilled against Titan Ex" did you miss?

Plus, 200-220 is da norm kind sir ^^. MNKs can crush it with mush less efforts than BLM in this fight. Same as Twintania, SMNs can't be touched. We have our fights, and other have theirs. I parse 375+ in Garuda Ex for example while Melee can only hope to dodge wicked wheel.

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I did not need to be civil. It is clear you were conceited with this post. I had even posted further back about BLM being fine on Titan. This response of yours was an indirect reply to me as well. Why do you think it was easy to get you to post the Titan parse? If I insulted your pride as a BLM, you were bound to defend yourself instead of choosing to remain silent or admitting one of your statements was incorrect.

You have this data at your fingertips yet you still post things like in the post quoted in #43. Why would you misconstrue facts like that? After I issued the challenge, your first thought was to run a parse on Titan and prove your worth to me as a BLM instead of just admitting you were wrong and mistakenly speaking for the BLM community on your own as if it were fact.

But I am thankful that you did run that parse. It does demonstrate that BLM does quite well and that you can play BLM just fine.

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Originally Posted by NeoAmon

I'm tired of this conversation -_-. Honestly, I gained nothing from it nor do I think you gained anything from it. Heck, reading everything from the start shows me how stupid the entire conversation was.

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Why do you say that? By having this conversation, you brought much needed evidence to this post where there are a bunch of misconceptions floating around: especially about the class you and I main.

Do you want the situation to end up like the OP with anti-melee PF groups forming? Or would you rather have it anti-caster PF groups? I know it doesn't personally involve you or me but I do not want to see that type of environment when I know that attitude is entirely incorrect.

It would be great if you would continue to gather data with your BLM and post your findings without being goaded into doing so. I would personally like to know things like if a BiS BLM can out perform a BiS MNK that play together regularly on fights like Twintania. Only one of the BLMs on my server has the Allagan weapon and he doesn't have BiS gear nor does he play with a MNK so I have seen pretty much no data regarding BiS BLMs.

You can rank any job you wish and post whatever you like. However, don't be surprised if someone refutes your claim.